<br />@ Purelove and Souza I think you meant to comment on my post. Well, first, I did not say MJ planned hoax last minute, if you read to the end, I said since MJ carefully planned hoax , he could think of using real corpse to be taken to UCLA, that has vitiligo and MJ look.<br /> <br />I have a hard time to believe that the CM defense team wasting time in the court defending their client who is in hoax and did not commit involuntary manslaughter. Also I won't believe that court is a circus. Maybe it looks like it from the far, but not form what I see .<br />OK, tell me now, what and who is a target in this hoax? What is going to happen in the scenario you believe in, who and what is going to be exposed?<br />Do you have an answer, I'll take it, give me reasonable fact, not just generalized "this is huge". OK, it is huge....what is it?<br />I think the hoax is about to reveal who wanted to kill Michael for years and related reasons. For that matter, we have to have an object who tried to commit the act,and that is Conrad Murray. I don't get how you don't see this obvious fact.<br />
<br /><br />No. My post wasn't directed at you Scorpion. Actually I must have missed reading your post. I will be going back and reading it.
Probably off topic: I think it was PureLove who wrote about the Roswell alien without the belly button. He also had a 'leg wound', which I remember my kids being most interested in, years ago when it was talked about on TV. Just an interesting coincidence!
<br />Murray is definitely in on the hoax and helping Michael, not trying to kill him. That is a far fetched theory and also underestimating Michael in my humble opinion. He planned this hoax for decades and thinking 'Murray was about to kill him and he escaped' makes him look like a vulnerable, weak person. Is this what people see in Michael? And I do not also understand how they believe Michael prepared ALL these huge things just in a couple days! This is his master plan, this is his SHOW, this is his REAL LIFE MOVIE. If you can not see it, I don't know if you learned a thing from this hoax. This is a perfect plan which could be be planned by a perfectionist like Michael and he planned it for decades. I hope people stop to underestimate him and what he is capable of soon.<br />
<br /> <br />Purelove If you are referring to my post you can simply say it.. I did say a theory and yes it is far fetched. I was just thinking. No need to get upset, and I have learned plenty.. I wonder of some of us have learned anything, every person they see they think it is Michael in disguise or Paris in desguise. please give me a break.. They haven't learned anything. thanks for your response. <br />
<br /><br />I wasn't talking ONLY about you all4love but I was referring to everyone on the forum who thinks that Murray was trying to kill Michael. You are NOT the only one who is writing about this "theory". You can believe that when I want to adress someone directly, I quote that person's post. And still you are not the only one who wrote about that theory on this thread. So, instead of mentioning everyone one by one, I preferred to use "people" for all of them. This is my choice. And yes, it is still my opinion that if people is still thinking about a possibility of this theory, Murray was trying to kill Michael but he escaped, they learned NOTHING from this hoax. If I need to say something personally to you, I see you making a step forward, you seem to start understanding the reasons of the hoax but then suddenly you make 10 steps backwards, forget about it all and start thinking that this is a short term plan and Michael escaped from Murray etc. Don't do this. Keep on moving forward not backward. Just a friendly advice from me to you.<br />
<br /> <br />THANK YOU DEAR. I UNDERSTOOD. LIKE I SAID I WAS JUST THINKING ALL POSSIBILITES. I ADMIT WHEN I AM WRONG, I AM WRONG. WE SHALL SEE WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT. NO HARD FEELINGS.I HAD A HARD DAY TODAY..
<br />Probably off topic: I think it was PureLove who wrote about the Roswell alien without the belly button. He also had a 'leg wound', which I remember my kids being most interested in, years ago when it was talked about on TV. Just an interesting coincidence!<br />
<br /><br />Yes, that is another "coincidence". Thank you for the input curls.
@Sarahli...good posts about a possible 'sting' on docs.<br /> <br />I also believe that 'doctors' could be a possible 'target' (IF there is a 'sting' or several going on). I've posted about why I think so before....but the main point being that there is widespread addiction to prescription drugs and a HUGE reason for this is through doctors' prescriptions. This could be personal to Mike (I'm sure he's known a few people who were addicted and some who may even have died due to prescription drugs)...and it would also be an FBI and/or DEA 'interest.' <br /> <br />
on 1318625069:
<br />One other thing that does not make sense is WHY Murray ordered propofol by the crate loads IF he was trying to wean Michael off (according to his audio testimony). It makes no sense.<br />
<br /> <br />If doctors are a 'target'...then it wouldn't be a far stretch to think that pharmacies are as well. I wrote about this awhile back:<br /> <br />
on 1317176974:
<br />Pharmacies - if docs are the 'pushers'...the pharmacies are 'suppliers'. I have to go through a whole ID process to get some cough medicine at the pharmacy. Applied Pharmacy 'supplied' a doctor with 15 litres of a controlled substance (or at least one that should raise eyebrows coming from a cardiologist) and sent it the doc's girlfriend's place lol. Whether they knowingly knew things were shady or whether they were just too stupid to follow up on the doc and the address....they are still guitly of not fulfilling their duty to society at minimum...an accomplice to a homicide at most.<br />
<br /> <br />We've seen a few things come up in court that would support a possible 'sting' on doctors. Likewise, there have been 2 pharmacies mentioned in court that could also support them being a 'target' as well (Applied Pharmacy - Lopez's testimony...and Mickey's Finn Pharmacy was also mentioned but not elaborated on...but we did learn that there is a 'link' between this pharmacy and Klein).<br /> <br />For all we know, the FBI/DEA could've been 'surveilling' all the docs and pharmacies mentioned in the trial prior to 2009...and I tend to believe the 'foundation' of this sting (if there is one) started many years ago. If true, then I also think that Murray (acting under the direction of the FBI) ordered all that propofol from Applied simply to see if he could and if they would ship it to wherever he wanted. That may have been the 'bait'....and if true, then Applied fell for it hook, line and sinker. It will be interesting to learn more about Mickey's Finn Pharmacy and their 'role' in all this...especially their connection to Klein. Perhaps we will once things start to unravel.<br /> <br />With L.O.V.E. always.
Did anyone see Man On The Moon with Jim Carrey? There's a scene that takes place at UCLA Medical Center where the parents and siblings of Andy Koffman are being told by a doctor that their son/brother is dying of cancer. They don't believe it's true because they know at UCLA doctors can be hired by movie companies. This holds true to policemen, firemen, coroners, etc., they all can be hired to play a roll and sign a disclaimer not to reveal the truth. Even at the end of the movie it implies that Andy Kofffman is alive. Danny Devito also starred in this movie. Since he worked with Andy - why would he be ok with this ending unless he knew something? Food for thought...<br />
<br /> <br />As MJOM mentioned, great point! And great movie reference . <br /> <br />Kaufman was a huge prankster, or should I say hoaxer. His feud with Jerry Lawler, wrestling women, his 'marriage' and newfound faith in Jesus (yea right Andy lol), his dry humor, his being funny without being funny. He was the guy who got sheer joy out of making people feel very uncomfortable. I love him for that! I have to say, Andy Kaufman is legend and one of my favorites:<br /> <br /><br />
I'm not fully understanding why 'corpse' must be african american with vitiligo and nose job. If coroner is in on the hoax (which I believe) then they could've taken a pic of a white man's body. This is why you can't recognize the face. in most autopsy pics I have seen, the body is completely supine with spine aligned (that rhymed lol). In Mike's autopsy pic, the head is tilted to the right. If someone would take a pic for evidence, wouldn't they show the most important part of the body? THE FACE!!!
<br />I'm not fully understanding why 'corpse' must be african american with vitiligo and nose job. If coroner is in on the hoax (which I believe) then they could've taken a pic of a white man's body. This is why you can't recognize the face. in most autopsy pics I have seen, the body is completely supine with spine aligned (that rhymed lol). In Mike's autopsy pic, the head is tilted to the right. If someone would take a pic for evidence, wouldn't they show the most important part of the body? THE FACE!!!<br />
<br /><br />But if the coroner is in on it, then why use a real body at all? That is my point.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
<br />@Sarahli...good posts about a possible 'sting' on docs.<br /> <br />I also believe that 'doctors' could be a possible 'target' (IF there is a 'sting' or several going on). I've posted about why I think so before....but the main point being that there is widespread addiction to prescription drugs and a HUGE reason for this is through doctors' prescriptions. This could be personal to Mike (I'm sure he's known a few people who were addicted and some who may even have died due to prescription drugs)...and it would also be an FBI and/or DEA 'interest.' <br /> <br />
on 1318625069:
<br />One other thing that does not make sense is WHY Murray ordered propofol by the crate loads IF he was trying to wean Michael off (according to his audio testimony). It makes no sense.<br />
<br /> <br />If doctors are a 'target'...then it wouldn't be a far stretch to think that pharmacies are as well. I wrote about this awhile back:<br /> <br />
<br /> <br />Guys, I really don't uhnderstand what makes you believe that there is a sting operation o expose doctors and pharmacies. FBI is not scared of them to do open investigation. There are already enough facts and spread out speeches all over the media that doctors keep fueling star patients with drugs. Why sting operation? <br />Sting operation means that undercover FBI, CIA agent pretends he/she is a patient who needs to sleep and asks doctors for the drug to see what they do to catch them on the crime. There is no need to do sting, everything is already exposed. Sting operation performed only when something is difficult to prove, too dangerous, or has involved high profile/difficult to catch criminals.<br />Doctors, on the other hand, openly argue that powerful and rich patients make them to prescribe those medication and have some degree of responsibility. We are not talking here about illegal substance drugs prescribed by doctors to engage in sting operation.<br />The only sting I can think of can be to find out who was behind the plan to kill Michael IMO.
Here are a few more ideas about why they needed to show the autopsy photo or picture of the body. I think all or most of the clues given have two or more purposes. The photo is not only for the trial it could also be for us to learn about other things that we need to know. The trial is to wake up the masses to the truth about a lot of things going on in the world. SimpattyK said it reminded her of the shroud that covered Jesus'body. Read the thread New Jesus-Mark My Words, under the category Reasons why Michael faked his death. She has interesting thoughts and videos about "The Shroud of Turin" and how it could be a hoax done by the illuminati to trick us. Also, I see that people on here commented that the body picture reminds them of the Roswell Alien autopsy hoax. Also, TMZ had an article saying Michael was a little alien. Maybe we should research more on aliens ? I don't think anything given is a coincidence. It seems they are giving us information little bit by little bit. Especially TMZ and it takes a while to see how things are connected. Peace
<br /> <br />Guys, I really don't uhnderstand what makes you believe that there is a sting operation o expose doctors and pharmacies. FBI is not scared of them to do open investigation. There are already enough facts and spread out speeches all over the media that doctors keep fueling star patients with drugs. Why sting operation? <br />Sting operation means that undercover FBI, CIA agent pretends he/she is a patient who needs to sleep and asks doctors for the drug to see what they do to catch them on the crime. There is no need to do sting, everything is already exposed. Sting operation performed only when something is difficult to prove, too dangerous, or has involved high profile/difficult to catch criminals.<br />Doctors, on the other hand, openly argue that powerful and rich patients make them to prescribe those medication and have some degree of responsibility. We are not talking here about illegal substance drugs prescribed by doctors to engage in sting operation.<br />The only sting I can think of can be to find out who was behind the plan to kill Michael IMO. <br /><br /><br />For me there are a couple of reason I think this is a sting. One is the clues. Why would Michael be leaving clues if he were just hoaxing period and will come back in the end? Wouldn't the purpose be to fool everyone? Also, I think like I keep saying, SOMEONE has to be covering the financial end of all this and the legalities of it.<br />Also, as I've said before, Michael could've chosen ANY format to have the hoax plot. He could've had the trial about attempted murder instead of homicide or about ..anything. But, he picked the MEDICAL field, and it is intense. There has to be a hell of a lot of investigators to pull this off. Maybe it's not a sting about the entire celeb/doc medical stuff. Maybe it's simply more about Michael himself and the need to be controlled by..who knows who's really behind the entire thing. Maybe he's had doctors trying to keep him drugged along to control him for his music..he was supposedly worried about that. <br />Anyhow, Scorpionchik, what is your alternative to no sting if you believe it's a hoax? Do you just think it's a movie/hoax? I can't believe it could all be funded by Michael, or entirely be legal in EVERY detail. I am interested in your theory <br />
<br />Ok so Im_convinced, what exactly is your body theory at this point then? You've stated here recently what it is NOT (not terminal patient, not frozen), but I'm not clear on what exactly it IS.<br /><br /><br />How does one go about using a refrigerated corpse to fool a coroner? I believe it is not possible to do so without extreme efforts at deception. Even then, I'm not sure it is possible. It is a coroner's job to determine time and cause of death. How would MJ ensure that this was achieved, while simultaneously ensuring that the cause of death be listed as "acute Propofol intoxication". How do you get Propofol to deviate from it's own break down properties and be present in the bloodstream of a long dead person? How do you even get blood to circulate in a long dead person?<br /><br /><br />In addition, as Souza addressed, what would be the motive? WHO would a real corpse be intended to fool? They're all in on it all the way down the line, from Carrolwood to Coroner. In other words, what's the motive?<br /><br /><br />I think the simple, easy, first suspicion is correct. There was no body.<br />
<br /><br />I don't get it either...<br /><br />
They had plenty advance time to add certain features to the corpse like the wig, eyebrow, hairline, lip tattoos to make it more believable it was MJ. That wouldn't be done on the day of death but before hand. The body stayed kept on ice until needed.
<br /><br />Anyways, let's assume it was kept in a fridge, fine by me because the pathologist mentioned that too. A body will go smell rotten after two days, regardless of that fridge. It slows down, it does not stop. As soon as it is placed in a hot room, decomp/rigor sets in very quickly. And will show even more signs of death than a body that was recently frozen.<br /><br />I still have not heard a plausible motive for a body either and with that refridgerated body, it still has to be a quite fresh corpse. What is the chance that a person would die around that day that looks so much like Mike that a coroner could be fooled. Mike WAS allegedly identified by his DL, which means that if the coroner is not in on it, the DL had to match the corpse. Oh, and besides looking like him, it needed to have vitiligo as well.<br /><br />Sorry, but I rest my case. The coroner is in on it, there is no need for an autopsy on a random corpse. There is also no reason for a real corpse for the rest of the witnesses. You either don't get what I mean, or I don't get you, but this is going in circles. Show me one very good reason for a corpse and I will reconsider, but so far you did not give me one.<br />
<br />I NEVER have stated that my theory included a terminally ill person. In the comment you quoted I said in my next comment I am reposting a comment I had made to you.http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php/topic,20587.msg362783.html#msg362783<br />In that next comment is my theory of an already dead corpse/cadaver and I provided evidence of what is realistically possible to do to a corpse/cadaver to use it in the hoax. I provided links to reference material that comes from medical professionals in their fields of expertise. The pdf file from the Coroner Workshop has info on how they preserve a body in it's natural state. That is not embalming they do not embalm a corpse/cadaver that is going to be used for study. There is links to info of how the corpse/cadaver is kept refrigerated not frozen to prevent decomp and allows the corpse/cadaver to be used for up to 10 hrs a day and it can be stored up to 6 months if needed. I provide links to evidence so people can read the info and not just take it for granted that I am telling the truth.
<br />@bec-In this quote of mine above I stated that my comment to Souza is my theory of an already dead corpse/cadaver used in the hoax. IF you had clicked on the link that I provided in the quote you would have been taken to my theory and therefore would not have to ask me what my theory is. It is looking like you haven't clicked on the link.<br />
on 1318564707:
<br />Oh, and in addition to looking like Mike and having vitiligo, the body also had to have a slim body, around 50 years old, african american, with nose job done and died of acute propofol intoxication, alongside other features I probably missed.<br /><br />I believe a lot, but that would be too much of a coincidence.<br />
<br />@Souza-I see that you did go to the link that has my theory in it because you qouted some of it but not the part that explains the rest of the way that they could have found a suitable corpse/cadaver. Here is the rest that was needed:
They had plenty advance time to add certain features to the corpse like the wig, eyebrow, hairline, lip tattoos to make it more believable it was MJ. That wouldn't be done on the day of death but before hand. The body stayed kept on ice until needed. <br /><br />They had enough time to find a suitable corpse to match almost his known illness of vitiligo. They couldn't make everything perfect because some absent things from the body were needed to provide suspicion it wasn't MJ.<br />
With as many deaths that occur especially in LA there is alot of corpse/cadavers to choose from and it is possible to get one that resembles MJ, even his age and vitiligo. How would a coroner figure out someone's ethnicity IF it was not necessary to do so. Even though MJ is a black man his skin has appeared to be white for many years. The coroner is working on a corpse/cadaver that has been identified as MJ so he would not need to figure out whether the corpse/cadaver was in fact a black man. Those kind of tests go beyond a standard autopsy.<br />
on 1318566303:
<br />And they'd somehow have to figure out a legal loophole to display it in court as "Michael Jackson"'s body AND make it look enough like him to fool the entire viewing public.<br /><br />There's that matter of a endotracheal tube being inserted into a body in rigor as well. Thawed out=rigor. That's been proven long ago.<br />
<br />@bec-Legal loopholes need not to be worried about by me because I believe the FBI is helping MJ so therefore they have influence for that part. The sting also takes care of that. You definetly did not click the link that goes to my theory and IF you did you would have read the links that debunk the idea that an endotracheal tube can not be inserted into a corpse/cadaver. I will make it easy for you and include 2 links that go to info on being able to intubate a corpse/cadaver.<br />
@ford, the very last sentense I wrote is my point of hoax although I don't necessarily connect sting with this version either. Can or cannot be sting. No movie what so ever.
@Scorpionchik....I understand what you're saying but the same thing could easily be applied to your theory. The family, from the beginning, has said that there were people after Michael...that there was a 'conspiracy'...La Toya went as far as even saying she'd name 'names'. If that's the case, why would a 'hoax court' be needed as a guise for a 'sting' operation to find out who was trying to kill Mike? The family would've just given the 'names' to the FBI and they would've been investigated. <br /> <br />We are two weeks in to the trial....and most likely, have two weeks left. Has there been any 'light' shed on who was trying to kill Mike other than Murray? None that I have been able to see. But then again, the defense hasn't presented their case yet. The point is...we have no clue if there even is a 'sting' and if there is one, who the 'targets' are. Some of us like to look at all possibilities and, at this point anyway, doctors and pharmacies are just as much possible a 'target' as those who were supposedly trying to kill Mike because nothing is clear yet.<br /> <br />The point you raise about stings occuring when something is difficult to prove is very true and it would also fit in with doctors being a 'target'. Doctors are licensed to order drugs...i.e. it is not illegal for them to do so. Murray purchasing the propofol wasn't illegal per se....it became a problem because of what he was using it for, how he was using it, and where he was using it. The 'paper trail', so to speak, for 'catching' most doctors engaging in corrupt activities ends at the prescription or purchase point. And the problem with that is that they have not committed any wrongdoing at that point since they are legally entitled to prescribe, order and purchase drugs. Whatever happens beyond that point takes place behind closed doors....and anything done behind closed doors is very difficult to prove.<br /> <br />None of us are saying that docs and pharmacies ARE the sting 'targets'...we're just looking at the different possibilities and engaging in discussion.<br /> <br />With L.O.V.E. always.
[size=10pt]Warning this is a long post.[/size]<br /><br />I have given more than one reason why a corpse/cadaver would be needed and for who. My list could never get specific and name names because there is most likely never going to be full disclosure of who the targets are/were and who they caught with the sting. I pointed out why the pics needed to be shown and that was because of the need for a proof of death for those who may still be looking to take MJ out. The same way we figured out MJ is still alive and we have posted our evidence here is also a way that MJ's enemies could have easily found out and have been reading here. <br /><br />That is not to say that what we are doing is exposing MJ to danger because as difficult as it is to prove to non-believers about the hoax and as difficult as it is for me to prove to others my theories, it will be difficult for his enemies to believe because there is SO much CONtroversy and CONtradictions. Notice CON is in both words. This is a great CON. Showing that pic to the public is an eye catching SHOCK and makes people question why. It also is a high drama tactic. <br /><br />That thing about TS saying people are being tested and his explanation is below in regards to Murray, I am adding some points onto that. I have sat in on the chat everyday watching the trial, reading the chat and what I have noticed is alot of pre-judge-ish comments regarding the witnesses looks.<br /><br />Alot of comments are about the DA being goodlooking, the Dr. dude in the yellow tie being handsome, and I think that is being pre-judge-ish towards those people and some are totally dismissing ideas and info from these people who are not very goodlooking. The trial isn't over and comments are being made without having the whole picture to think about. Theories being presented are different than comments about people's looks.<br /><br />I also want to point out that we are still being tested and as TS said the best way to test people is when they don't know because they act more natural. I made a comment in chat asking IF anyone ever thought that MJ or his fam could be reading here and even participating under anons or screen names to test us. <br /><br />I believe MJ and his fam would antagonize us to see how we react. Then you can also add in the fact that Front made a post about embracing non-believers. Seems like I wasn't the only one who took notice at the recent behavior of believers. I even gave an example of how I was treated by believers in chat when they thought I was from another planet. 8-) Of course this is my opinion and not fact.<br /><br />Another thing about being tested in your natural state is the employees of certain official departments and they will be tested on their competence with out them knowing it. Ed Winters was at the house with E. Fleak and so was Detective Smith. Lets say Ed Winters is testing her for competence, this is very real and happens alot in certain fields of professions. Some people get sloppy over time or burned out in certain jobs and they have to be tested to prevent bad things from happening. This is no different than businesses using secret shoppers to test customer service. Something to think about when deciding who are the key people involved in certain positions and why they are not testifying. I am posting comments as reminders on some of the topics that are being talked about now.<br /><br />TIAI March 9 <br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php/topic,18185.msg314346.html#msg314346<br />
on 1300331110:
<br />
@ I'm convinced..<br /><br />
Also that was the diversion tactic for the media and public while I believe Michael slipped out a back gate and went to the AIRPORT.
<br /><br />ITA with this! Since they were so slow- Michael had ample time. Smoke and Mirrors to make the illusion work.
<br />I agree with this.
ignisaeternus wrote:<br />Also, in a true sting, you leave enough things out there to intimidate your mark.
<br /><br />All the contradictions are to confuse the enemy. Also IF anything was to happen to Michael now or after the BAM: WE the PUBLIC would be on the case and say HEY what is UP? I also believe this is part of the reason Michael wanted us (death hoax investigators and the non-hoax fans) to be INVOLVED so it gives him more protection. It also makes more people aware of WTF he has been saying for years. His "death" has our ATTENTION! :shock:<br /><br />The more people looking into it is all the better.<br /><br />I also don't get why some people find it hard to believe that Michael has INFLUENCE over key people. 8-) Given his HIStory with the police/armies of other nations/countries gaurding him during his concerts or outings. Think about all the traveling he has done, who he has met and been photographed with. 8-)<br /><br /><br />Side Note: Kenny did say something about equipment arriving. Maybe that was the fake ambulance? :?<br />
There were also some concerns that I mentioned the concept of people being tested, and some failing the test; it was suggested that MJ would not do this. Well, what about Murray? Don’t you think many people have failed the same basic (prejudice) test—calling him a murderer, even before the preliminary hearing?? Don’t you think that MJ planned this test, to help expose the problems of prejudice and trial by media? <br />http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=11198#p187832http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=11198#p187841<br /><br />Passing the test does not mean gullibly believing anything and everything that TS says, merely because TS is the one who says it; you have always been asked to verify the evidence for yourself, and debunk it if you can, etc. However, those who refuse anything and everything that TS says, merely because TS is the one who says it—regardless of any and all evidence that has never yet been debunked—they are not at the A+ level on the report card! <br /><br />Speaking of trying to debunk TS: one particular member kept dwelling on my statements about “few” in on the hoax—claiming that there were more than “few”, so this alone proves that TS is a fake see Update 4d, http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7194. However, this is just another of many examples of critics not carefully reading what I said. The word “few” is always relative; and in comparison to all the stars in the sky, one thousand is a “few” stars. Taken in context, the “few” that I mentioned was in relation to this statement: “the entire state of California is not in on the hoax. ... only a relatively few people would need to be ‘in on it’” (in 4-36 & 4-38).<br /><br />I never gave any specific number other than “more than three”; but if you read all my posts, you will find that I myself did mention several specifically involved with the hoax: MJ, family, Conrad, Kenny Ortega, coroner, hospital, FBI, TMZ, etc. And there are many others (friends/celebrities) who may not have a direct role, and yet understand that it’s a hoax (much like us).
<br />Without quoting anyone specific, I will give my answers here to things that have been asked or stated by several hoax members about the FBI.<br /><br />First, I am not the one to initiate FBI or government involvement. This is a theory that has been around pretty much from the beginning. Souza has had the FBI on the home page for a long time: "If he has the FBI on his side, a lot can be done." http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/recap_english.php.<br /><br />Second, I never said that everyone in the entire FBI organization is involved. I have always said MJ was planning this for years, and got a few key people in a few key positions to cooperate with him. Notice that this is possible with the structure of the FBI: "The article went on to also blame the FBI's decentralized structure which prevented effective communication and cooperation between different FBI offices. The article also claimed that the FBI has still not evolved into an effective counterterrorism or counterintelligence agency, due in large part to deeply ingrained cultural resistance to change within the FBI." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fbi <br /><br />Third, as I have said a few times already in this thread: the Elvis connection answers much of these objections--including the idea that there would be 100% secrecy, and no clues. Elvis had government help, that is unquestionably established not only from Linda's website--but just about anyone else who talks about the Elvis case. Also, originally Elvis had only six people in on it--and they were not all government agents. Therefore, all the people in all the government agencies were not in on it. <br /><br />Fourth, if the FBI is involved, why would TS expose this publicly on the internet? Again, look at the Elvis case. Why does Linda's website publicly expose the fact that government agents helped Elvis in the past and recently? Is Linda's website putting anyone in danger? No. Why not? Because the general public has never heard of her website; and of the few who do see it, many still don't believe it. Same for this MJ hoax website. It is not getting millions of hits a day (not yet, anyway :shock:). Few are watching, most of which are merely forum members here; and even some of those don't believe what I am saying about the FBI.<br /><br />Fifth, there is more than one way to skin a cat. So let's look at it from the other side of the coin. If the FBI did not help out, then how could the Bel Air station not know something is fishy? Would they sit by quietly, and say nothing, while MJ hired actors and rented an ambulance to look just like the LAFD #71 ambulance? And why would the LAFD Captain say: "On June 25, 2009, LAFD responded ... our paramedic ..."--if indeed the LAFD did NOT respond, and it was merely actors in a rented ambulance?<br /><br />Do you think professionals could ALL be bought out for money? And when the truth came out, wouldn't there be serious consequences for all of them? Do you think they would not be charged with abuse of public office--ESPECIALLY if they got paid for it? Can they get out of it all, by saying that it was all just for a movie--and this or that legal loophole squeaks them by? Did you know that legal loopholes do not prevent people from getting charged with a crime? Did you know that loopholes may not even prevent someone from being convicted of a crime? Different people interpret the law differently; that is why there are lawyers and judges and juries.<br /><br />However, if key people in the FBI are cooperating with LAFD and MJ: then when the truth comes out, all they have to do is show success in catching some public corruption through this process--and all is well that ends well. After all, once again, that is their "top priority among criminal investigations." http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption<br /><br />Finally: is this hoax a prank, or a Thriller II reality movie, or an ARG, or a sting operation, or a Vendetta, or an NWO/EOW warning, or a wake-up call to the gullible public (don't believe everything in the media), etc--which is it? And the answer is: all of the above! It is something that people have never seen before, at least not the combination of these things and on this scale.
<br /><br />Do you think professionals could ALL be bought out for money? And when the truth came out, wouldn't there be serious consequences for all of them? Do you think they would not be charged with abuse of public office--ESPECIALLY if they got paid for it? Can they get out of it all, by saying that it was all just for a movie--and this or that legal loophole squeaks them by? Did you know that legal loopholes do not prevent people from getting charged with a crime? Did you know that loopholes may not even prevent someone from being convicted of a crime? Different people interpret the law differently; that is why there are lawyers and judges and juries.
<br /><br />I need some clearance on this, as this thing interests me the most. Legality.<br /><br />1."Do you think professionals could ALL be bought out for money?"- were they brought out for money, in first place? that means FBI's proffesionals are used with corruption, because why would you pay them to do your work if you need them for a correct purpose?(I'm not talking about salary here)<br /><br />2."Do you think they would not be charged with abuse of public office--ESPECIALLY if they got paid for it?"- Again, FBI is used to reveal corruption but they are used via corruption themselves?I don't understand. Being paid for it IS corruption (I'm not talking about salary or being paid for your work here, you understand what I mean?)<br /><br />3."Can they get out of it all, by saying that it was all just for a movie--and this or that legal loophole squeaks them by? Did you know that legal loopholes do not prevent people from getting charged with a crime? Did you know that loopholes may not even prevent someone from being convicted of a crime? "- Again, who commited a crime? Michael or the ones involved (being paid for doing something against law)?
<br /><br />Hi Anna,<br /><br />I'm not sure if you understood what I was saying. When I said "got paid for it", I did not mean FBI agents. In this context, I am arguing against the idea that the FBI are not involved at all. If the FBI are not involved, then what implications are there for LAFD?<br /><br />If the LAFD cooperated with MJ for money, to produce a movie, then when the truth came out there would probably be serious consequences for LAFD--including possible criminal charges. Sure, LAFD may cooperate making a movie--when it is all clearly known to the public to be a movie--and not get into any trouble. But if the LAPD were involved in making a movie, that was clearly designed to look like reality, then there is a chance of legal trouble--even if legal loopholes were used to supposedly keep them out of trouble (such as not running the siren on the ambulance, etc). The theory that the LAFD are involved merely for money and a movie has at least this major problem; therefore, FBI operation makes more sense.
I know TS said this hoax is because of many things but TS didn't say it was also because MJ was in danger? So is MJ not in danger or was never in danger?<br /><br />This is not an important question but TS said that it was also a prank, who is it a prank to? I know MJ liked doing pranks but why is that one of the reasons? I am not trying to single out that reason or take it out of context but it just interests me.
<br /><br />I have always said that MJ was in danger, but it was not imminent danger on June 25. Did he realize on the morning of June 25, that someone was hot on his tracks--and then he suddenly decided to make a dash for the airport, while planning and orchestrating the hoax by cell phone on the run? No, he had this planned for a long time; the numerology, the "illusion", and even his statement to Randy the night before--all these show us clearly that MJ already had it planned to the exact day. Therefore, it was not a last-minute idea to escape imminent danger. Also, I did not say that the list I gave was all of the reasons for the hoax.<br /><br />I will discuss about the "prank" aspect a little more in my next comment.
Sorry, but I don't buy that he would make people/fans suffer unnecessarily just for a joke.! It has to be something more serious than that....<br /><br />Remember, his children are playing a part in this too, and I don't think MJ would make them lie, just for fun. This has caused pain to many people, on many levels. ...
<br /><br />I agree, that this was not "JUST" for a joke, or fun. And I included several reasons other than just a prank. However, even though there are several other reasons, you know MJ is a prankster--and he is certainly capable of throwing some things in for a laugh here and there. I'm sure that you have read many people refer to the trial as the man's-laughter (manslaughter) case.<br /><br />By the way, speaking of toys in the courtroom: did anyone notice that the same judge did NOT have the yellow taxi in LiLo's recent court appearance?
<br /><br /><br />It’s time for another level. 8-)<br /><br />We are now at the most important level: who is the focus of The Sting? Keep in mind the possibility that more than one person or entity is the focus.<br /><br />Most specifically, though, we need to investigate whether the entire court is in on the hoax, or could the court itself be the focus of the FBI investigation (or part of the investigation). Some have already proposed this possibility, while others have summarily dismissed it. As always, please do not dismiss any theory until it has been thoroughly debunked. And whatever theory you personally believe, try to debunk your own theory; many hoax investigators are still not doing this.<br /><br />In favor of the court sting theory, let me point out a few things. Some say that the court did the right thing back in the 2005 acquittal, so why would it be investigated? The reality is that the defense and jury did the right thing, but what about the prosecution? We already know about Aphrodite’s testimony, and Tom Sneddon (TS ), etc.<br /><br />We also know that for years the FBI investigated MJ, and the pedophile claim; but they found nothing against MJ. Could it be that in the process of this investigation, the FBI found evidence of corruption in the LA prosecution and the MJ trial? Could it be that as a result, the FBI in cooperation with MJ decided to make the LA court system the focus of a sting operation? Please remember that the “top priority” of the FBI is “public corruption” in government agencies; and their investigation specifically includes “verdicts handed down in courts.” <br />http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption<br /><br />We are also at the point, which I mentioned earlier, of running two different coherent theories in parallel. And as we try to put all the pieces together—including the research of previous levels, as well as the new information that we will get during the hearings—hopefully one of the two theories will fall into place, and the other one will fall apart.<br /><br />Although there are endless minor variations within these two main coherent theories, for the purpose of this level we are only examining two basic theories: the court is in on the hoax, or the court is not in on the hoax (other than the defense, and maybe a few other key people). For the sake of discussion, we can refer to these two theories as “hoax court” and “sting court”.<br /><br />In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance. In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD). In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used.<br /><br />Even though level three is still unresolved, yet we can and should start investigating level four (The Sting). Actually, level three and four are closely related—so much so that if we get a clear answer to level four, then level three will probably be easy to resolve (and vice versa).<br /><br />[size=12pt]To be more specific: if it’s hoax court, then there would be little if any need to use a corpse; but if it is sting court, then the corpse theory has a strong case. This would not only reduce the people who would need to be in on it, but it would also allow witnesses to testify truthfully in real court under oath (both witnesses who are in on it, and those who are not).[/size]<br /><br />It has been suggested that this would constitute entrapment; but sting versus entrapment does not depend on using a dummy versus a corpse. It would be possible to use a dummy, and still qualify as entrapment, if the job was done so airtight that nobody could figure it out. On the other hand: it would be possible to use a corpse, and not qualify as entrapment, as long as there are plenty of clues and evidence that MJ is still alive. [size=12pt]If the hoax forums can figure out that MJ is alive, when most of the members are not even professional investigators, then what excuse would the LA prosecution have for not figuring it out?[/size]<br /><br />Please do not let this thread become the primary discussion for all the things that happen during the hearings; there will be other threads for that purpose. Just bring into this thread discussion and evidence related to the focus of The Sting, and especially whether it is hoax court or sting court.
<br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011<br /><br />Good eye! <br /><br />Although some have said that this thread is just going in circles, and nothing accomplished, yet there has been some definite progress. There have been strong arguments presented both for and against the corpse theory (with neither side fully convincing the other). But this can be a good thing; we will get a lot more information during the hearings, and some may find it easier to keep the faith with the corpse theory.<br /><br />On the other hand, I agree with bec and others, that the corpse theory is the least desirable—and would certainly be avoided if there was any other feasible way. Some are very strongly opposed to this idea, while others are not; and although the emotional argument holds a lot of weight on this forum (at least with some), it probably would not hold much if any weight in a court of law—which is the type of evidence we are looking for.<br /><br />And yes, I did say the fewer the better, not the fewest the best; nevertheless, for the sake of the challenge if nothing else, let’s examine this question from the fewest possible concept (and this is NOT the actual case, but for the purpose of making the point). <br /><br />What if MJ actually died morning of 6-25-09: how many would need to be “in on it”? NONE! Why? Because it would not be a hoax, and there would be no hoax for anyone to be “in on”. Then what if someone else actually died morning of 6-25-09, such as a hospice patient on life support: how many would need to be “in on it”? None, EXCEPT the following: those at the house who knew about the hospice patient there (could be none other than MJ and Murray), and one or at most a few involved in the autopsy.<br /><br />But in that case, wouldn’t people realize that it was not MJ? Scientific analysis (such as dental records) would only be done at the coroner; so this is why at least one there would need to be in. As far as visual recognition by others (paramedics, hospital staff, etc): this might not be as big of a problem as you would think. There are several things that would tend to distract people’s attention from the recognition factor: the power of suggestion (others saying that it is MJ), reports of baldness and wigs, and recent plastic surgery, and not very many recent pictures in the news, and the intensity of an emergency situation with a high profile VIP, and other distractions such as the fire alarm, etc (distractions created by the few who are in on it).<br /><br />We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ. And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also? In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it. Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.<br /><br />[size=12pt]So again, if anyone can debunk the corpse theory, please do. But not with emotional reactions please, only documented evidence.[/size] And there were a couple of good comments on the life support patient idea: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766<br /><br />See also a similar but slightly different theory:http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518<br />
<br />[size=10pt]Warning this is a long post.[/size]<br /><br />I have given more than one reason why a corpse/cadaver would be needed and for who. My list could never get specific and name names because there is most likely never going to be full disclosure of who the targets are/were and who they caught with the sting. I pointed out why the pics needed to be shown and that was because of the need for a proof of death for those who may still be looking to take MJ out. The same way we figured out MJ is still alive and we have posted our evidence here is also a way that MJ's enemies could have easily found out and have been reading here. <br /><br />That is not to say that what we are doing is exposing MJ to danger because as difficult as it is to prove to non-believers about the hoax and as difficult as it is for me to prove to others my theories, it will be difficult for his enemies to believe because there is SO much CONtroversy and CONtradictions. Notice CON is in both words. This is a great CON. Showing that pic to the public is an eye catching SHOCK and makes people question why. It also is a high drama tactic. <br /><br />That thing about TS saying people are being tested and his explanation is below in regards to Murray, I am adding some points onto that. I have sat in chat everyday watching the trial, reading the chat and what I have noticed is alot of pre-judge-ish comments regarding the witnesses looks.<br /><br />Alot of comments are about the DA being goodlooking, the Dr. dude in the yellow tie being handsome, and I think that is being pre-judge-ish towards those people and some are totally dismissing ideas and info from these people who are not very goodlooking. The trial isn't over and comments are being made without having the whole picture to think about. <br /><br />I also want to point out that we are still being tested and as TS said the best way to test people is when they don't know because they act more natural. I made a comment in chat asking IF anyone ever thought that MJ or his fam could be reading here and even participating under anons or screen names to test us. <br /><br />I believe MJ and his fam would antagonize us to see how we react. Then you can also add in the fact that Front made a post about embracing non-believers. Seems like I wasn't the only one who took notice at the recent behavior of believers. I even gave an example of how I was treated by believers in chat when they thought I was from another planet. 8-) Of course this is my opinion and not fact.<br /><br />Another thing about being tested in your natural state is the employees of certain official departments and they will be tested on their competence with out them knowing it. Ed Winters was at the house with E. Fleaks and so was Detective Smith. Lets say Ed Winters is testing her for competence, this is very real and happens alot in certain fields of professions. Some people get sloppy over time or burned out in certain jobs and they have to be tested to prevent bad things from happening. This is no different than businesses using secret shoppers to test customer service. Something to think about when deciding who are the key people involved in certain positions and why they are not testifying. I am posting comments as reminders on some of the topics that are being talked about now.<br />TIAI March 9 <br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php/topic,18185.msg314346.html#msg314346<br />
on 1300331110:
<br />
@ I'm convinced..<br /><br />
Also that was the diversion tactic for the media and public while I believe Michael slipped out a back gate and went to the AIRPORT.
<br /><br />ITA with this! Since they were so slow- Michael had ample time. Smoke and Mirrors to make the illusion work.
<br />I agree with this.
ignisaeternus wrote:<br />Also, in a true sting, you leave enough things out there to intimidate your mark.
<br /><br />All the contradictions are to confuse the enemy. Also IF anything was to happen to Michael now or after the BAM: WE the PUBLIC would be on the case and say HEY what is UP? I also believe this is part of the reason Michael wanted us (death hoax investigators and the non-hoax fans) to be INVOLVED so it gives him more protection. It also makes more people aware of WTF he has been saying for years. His "death" has our ATTENTION! :shock: <br /><br />The more people looking into it is all the better.<br /><br />I also don't get why some people find it hard to believe that Michael has INFLUENCE over key people. 8-) Given his HIStory with the police/armies of other nations/countries gaurding him during his concerts or outings. Think about all the traveling he has done, who he has met and been photographed with. 8-) <br />
<br /><br />Side Note: Kenny did say something about equipment arriving. Maybe that was the fake ambulance? :? <br />
There were also some concerns that I mentioned the concept of people being tested, and some failing the test; it was suggested that MJ would not do this. Well, what about Murray? Don’t you think many people have failed the same basic (prejudice) test—calling him a murderer, even before the preliminary hearing?? Don’t you think that MJ planned this test, to help expose the problems of prejudice and trial by media? <br />http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=11198#p187832http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=11198#p187841<br /><br />Passing the test does not mean gullibly believing anything and everything that TS says, merely because TS is the one who says it; you have always been asked to verify the evidence for yourself, and debunk it if you can, etc. However, those who refuse anything and everything that TS says, merely because TS is the one who says it—regardless of any and all evidence that has never yet been debunked—they are not at the A+ level on the report card! <br /><br />Speaking of trying to debunk TS: one particular member kept dwelling on my statements about “few” in on the hoax—claiming that there were more than “few”, so this alone proves that TS is a fake see Update 4d, http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7194. However, this is just another of many examples of critics not carefully reading what I said. The word “few” is always relative; and in comparison to all the stars in the sky, one thousand is a “few” stars. Taken in context, the “few” that I mentioned was in relation to this statement: “the entire state of California is not in on the hoax. ... only a relatively few people would need to be ‘in on it’” (in 4-36 & 4-38).<br /><br />I never gave any specific number other than “more than three”; but if you read all my posts, you will find that I myself did mention several specifically involved with the hoax: MJ, family, Conrad, Kenny Ortega, coroner, hospital, FBI, TMZ, etc. And there are many others (friends/celebrities) who may not have a direct role, and yet understand that it’s a hoax (much like us).
<br />Without quoting anyone specific, I will give my answers here to things that have been asked or stated by several hoax members about the FBI.<br /><br />First, I am not the one to initiate FBI or government involvement. This is a theory that has been around pretty much from the beginning. Souza has had the FBI on the home page for a long time: "If he has the FBI on his side, a lot can be done." http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/recap_english.php.<br /><br />Second, I never said that everyone in the entire FBI organization is involved. I have always said MJ was planning this for years, and got a few key people in a few key positions to cooperate with him. Notice that this is possible with the structure of the FBI: "The article went on to also blame the FBI's decentralized structure which prevented effective communication and cooperation between different FBI offices. The article also claimed that the FBI has still not evolved into an effective counterterrorism or counterintelligence agency, due in large part to deeply ingrained cultural resistance to change within the FBI." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fbi <br /><br />Third, as I have said a few times already in this thread: the Elvis connection answers much of these objections--including the idea that there would be 100% secrecy, and no clues. Elvis had government help, that is unquestionably established not only from Linda's website--but just about anyone else who talks about the Elvis case. Also, originally Elvis had only six people in on it--and they were not all government agents. Therefore, all the people in all the government agencies were not in on it. <br /><br />Fourth, if the FBI is involved, why would TS expose this publicly on the internet? Again, look at the Elvis case. Why does Linda's website publicly expose the fact that government agents helped Elvis in the past and recently? Is Linda's website putting anyone in danger? No. Why not? Because the general public has never heard of her website; and of the few who do see it, many still don't believe it. Same for this MJ hoax website. It is not getting millions of hits a day (not yet, anyway :shock: ). Few are watching, most of which are merely forum members here; and even some of those don't believe what I am saying about the FBI.<br /><br />Fifth, there is more than one way to skin a cat. So let's look at it from the other side of the coin. If the FBI did not help out, then how could the Bel Air station not know something is fishy? Would they sit by quietly, and say nothing, while MJ hired actors and rented an ambulance to look just like the LAFD #71 ambulance? And why would the LAFD Captain say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggewNtwvHJ4 "On June 25, 2009, LAFD responded ... our paramedic ..."--if indeed the LAFD did NOT respond, and it was merely actors in a rented ambulance?<br /><br />Do you think professionals could ALL be bought out for money? And when the truth came out, wouldn't there be serious consequences for all of them? Do you think they would not be charged with abuse of public office--ESPECIALLY if they got paid for it? Can they get out of it all, by saying that it was all just for a movie--and this or that legal loophole squeaks them by? Did you know that legal loopholes do not prevent people from getting charged with a crime? Did you know that loopholes may not even prevent someone from being convicted of a crime? Different people interpret the law differently; that is why there are lawyers and judges and juries.<br /><br />However, if key people in the FBI are cooperating with LAFD and MJ: then when the truth comes out, all they have to do is show success in catching some public corruption through this process--and all is well that ends well. After all, once again, that is their "top priority among criminal investigations." http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption<br /><br />Finally: is this hoax a prank, or a Thriller II reality movie, or an ARG, or a sting operation, or a Vendetta, or an NWO/EOW warning, or a wake-up call to the gullible public (don't believe everything in the media), etc--which is it? And the answer is: all of the above! It is something that people have never seen before, at least not the combination of these things and on this scale.
<br /><br />Do you think professionals could ALL be bought out for money? And when the truth came out, wouldn't there be serious consequences for all of them? Do you think they would not be charged with abuse of public office--ESPECIALLY if they got paid for it? Can they get out of it all, by saying that it was all just for a movie--and this or that legal loophole squeaks them by? Did you know that legal loopholes do not prevent people from getting charged with a crime? Did you know that loopholes may not even prevent someone from being convicted of a crime? Different people interpret the law differently; that is why there are lawyers and judges and juries.
<br /><br />I need some clearance on this, as this thing interests me the most. Legality.<br /><br />1."Do you think professionals could ALL be bought out for money?"- were they brought out for money, in first place? that means FBI's proffesionals are used with corruption, because why would you pay them to do your work if you need them for a correct purpose?(I'm not talking about salary here)<br /><br />2."Do you think they would not be charged with abuse of public office--ESPECIALLY if they got paid for it?"- Again, FBI is used to reveal corruption but they are used via corruption themselves?I don't understand. Being paid for it IS corruption (I'm not talking about salary or being paid for your work here, you understand what I mean?)<br /><br />3."Can they get out of it all, by saying that it was all just for a movie--and this or that legal loophole squeaks them by? Did you know that legal loopholes do not prevent people from getting charged with a crime? Did you know that loopholes may not even prevent someone from being convicted of a crime? "- Again, who commited a crime? Michael or the ones involved (being paid for doing something against law)?
<br /><br />Hi Anna,<br /><br />I'm not sure if you understood what I was saying. When I said "got paid for it", I did not mean FBI agents. In this context, I am arguing against the idea that the FBI are not involved at all. If the FBI are not involved, then what implications are there for LAFD?<br /><br />If the LAFD cooperated with MJ for money, to produce a movie, then when the truth came out there would probably be serious consequences for LAFD--including possible criminal charges. Sure, LAFD may cooperate making a movie--when it is all clearly known to the public to be a movie--and not get into any trouble. But if the LAPD were involved in making a movie, that was clearly designed to look like reality, then there is a chance of legal trouble--even if legal loopholes were used to supposedly keep them out of trouble (such as not running the siren on the ambulance, etc). The theory that the LAFD are involved merely for money and a movie has at least this major problem; therefore, FBI operation makes more sense.
I know TS said this hoax is because of many things but TS didn't say it was also because MJ was in danger? So is MJ not in danger or was never in danger?<br /><br />This is not an important question but TS said that it was also a prank, who is it a prank to? I know MJ liked doing pranks but why is that one of the reasons? I am not trying to single out that reason or take it out of context but it just interests me.
<br /><br />I have always said that MJ was in danger, but it was not imminent danger on June 25. Did he realize on the morning of June 25, that someone was hot on his tracks--and then he suddenly decided to make a dash for the airport, while planning and orchestrating the hoax by cell phone on the run? No, he had this planned for a long time; the numerology, the "illusion", and even his statement to Randy the night before--all these show us clearly that MJ already had it planned to the exact day. Therefore, it was not a last-minute idea to escape imminent danger. Also, I did not say that the list I gave was all of the reasons for the hoax.<br /><br />I will discuss about the "prank" aspect a little more in my next comment.
Sorry, but I don't buy that he would make people/fans suffer unnecessarily just for a joke.! It has to be something more serious than that....<br /><br />Remember, his children are playing a part in this too, and I don't think MJ would make them lie, just for fun. This has caused pain to many people, on many levels. ...
<br /><br />I agree, that this was not "JUST" for a joke, or fun. And I included several reasons other than just a prank. However, even though there are several other reasons, you know MJ is a prankster--and he is certainly capable of throwing some things in for a laugh here and there. I'm sure that you have read many people refer to the trial as the man's-laughter (manslaughter) case.<br /><br />By the way, speaking of toys in the courtroom: did anyone notice that the same judge did NOT have the yellow taxi in LiLo's recent court appearance? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbZfxi4PoME
<br /><br /><br />It’s time for another level. 8-) <br /><br />We are now at the most important level: who is the focus of The Sting? Keep in mind the possibility that more than one person or entity is the focus.<br /><br />Most specifically, though, we need to investigate whether the entire court is in on the hoax, or could the court itself be the focus of the FBI investigation (or part of the investigation). Some have already proposed this possibility, while others have summarily dismissed it. As always, please do not dismiss any theory until it has been thoroughly debunked. And whatever theory you personally believe, try to debunk your own theory; many hoax investigators are still not doing this.<br /><br />In favor of the court sting theory, let me point out a few things. Some say that the court did the right thing back in the 2005 acquittal, so why would it be investigated? The reality is that the defense and jury did the right thing, but what about the prosecution? We already know about Aphrodite’s testimony, and Tom Sneddon (TS ), etc.<br /><br />We also know that for years the FBI investigated MJ, and the pedophile claim; but they found nothing against MJ. Could it be that in the process of this investigation, the FBI found evidence of corruption in the LA prosecution and the MJ trial? Could it be that as a result, the FBI in cooperation with MJ decided to make the LA court system the focus of a sting operation? Please remember that the “top priority” of the FBI is “public corruption” in government agencies; and their investigation specifically includes “verdicts handed down in courts.” <br />http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption<br /><br />We are also at the point, which I mentioned earlier, of running two different coherent theories in parallel. And as we try to put all the pieces together—including the research of previous levels, as well as the new information that we will get during the hearings—hopefully one of the two theories will fall into place, and the other one will fall apart.<br /><br />Although there are endless minor variations within these two main coherent theories, for the purpose of this level we are only examining two basic theories: the court is in on the hoax, or the court is not in on the hoax (other than the defense, and maybe a few other key people). For the sake of discussion, we can refer to these two theories as “hoax court” and “sting court”.<br /><br />In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance. In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD). In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used.<br /><br />Even though level three is still unresolved, yet we can and should start investigating level four (The Sting). Actually, level three and four are closely related—so much so that if we get a clear answer to level four, then level three will probably be easy to resolve (and vice versa).<br /><br />[size=12pt]To be more specific: if it’s hoax court, then there would be little if any need to use a corpse; but if it is sting court, then the corpse theory has a strong case. This would not only reduce the people who would need to be in on it, but it would also allow witnesses to testify truthfully in real court under oath (both witnesses who are in on it, and those who are not).[/size]<br /><br />It has been suggested that this would constitute entrapment; but sting versus entrapment does not depend on using a dummy versus a corpse. It would be possible to use a dummy, and still qualify as entrapment, if the job was done so airtight that nobody could figure it out. On the other hand: it would be possible to use a corpse, and not qualify as entrapment, as long as there are plenty of clues and evidence that MJ is still alive. [size=12pt]If the hoax forums can figure out that MJ is alive, when most of the members are not even professional investigators, then what excuse would the LA prosecution have for not figuring it out?[/size]<br /><br />Please do not let this thread become the primary discussion for all the things that happen during the hearings; there will be other threads for that purpose. Just bring into this thread discussion and evidence related to the focus of The Sting, and especially whether it is hoax court or sting court.
<br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011<br /><br />Good eye! <br /><br />Although some have said that this thread is just going in circles, and nothing accomplished, yet there has been some definite progress. There have been strong arguments presented both for and against the corpse theory (with neither side fully convincing the other). But this can be a good thing; we will get a lot more information during the hearings, and some may find it easier to keep the faith with the corpse theory.<br /><br />On the other hand, I agree with bec and others, that the corpse theory is the least desirable—and would certainly be avoided if there was any other feasible way. Some are very strongly opposed to this idea, while others are not; and although the emotional argument holds a lot of weight on this forum (at least with some), it probably would not hold much if any weight in a court of law—which is the type of evidence we are looking for.<br /><br />And yes, I did say the fewer the better, not the fewest the best; nevertheless, for the sake of the challenge if nothing else, let’s examine this question from the fewest possible concept (and this is NOT the actual case, but for the purpose of making the point). <br /><br />What if MJ actually died morning of 6-25-09: how many would need to be “in on it”? NONE! Why? Because it would not be a hoax, and there would be no hoax for anyone to be “in on”. Then what if someone else actually died morning of 6-25-09, such as a hospice patient on life support: how many would need to be “in on it”? None, EXCEPT the following: those at the house who knew about the hospice patient there (could be none other than MJ and Murray), and one or at most a few involved in the autopsy.<br /><br />But in that case, wouldn’t people realize that it was not MJ? Scientific analysis (such as dental records) would only be done at the coroner; so this is why at least one there would need to be in. As far as visual recognition by others (paramedics, hospital staff, etc): this might not be as big of a problem as you would think. There are several things that would tend to distract people’s attention from the recognition factor: the power of suggestion (others saying that it is MJ), reports of baldness and wigs, and recent plastic surgery, and not very many recent pictures in the news, and the intensity of an emergency situation with a high profile VIP, and other distractions such as the fire alarm, etc (distractions created by the few who are in on it).<br /><br />We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ. And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also? In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it. Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.<br /><br />[size=12pt]So again, if anyone can debunk the corpse theory, please do. But not with emotional reactions please, only documented evidence.[/size] And there were a couple of good comments on the life support patient idea: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766<br /><br />See also a similar but slightly different theory: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518<br />
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<br /> <br />You make absolutely sense. I do believe that the family does visits this forum and reads all or our posts. The Ironic thing is that they say it with conviction see (i used the word) with CON lolol/ that Michael has passed. So why aren't they telling us to close this forum because it is none sense, Michael is dead. For me it means they are ok with it, because Michael is alive. Now all we found as investigation it is smere speculations, so even if the evil people who are after Michael cannot find out that Michael is alive.. This is the feeling I get.
crash/ <br /><br /><br />I think all we have proved is that we cannot prove anything in regards to this hoax.<br /><br /><br />I give up.<br /><br /><br />MJ, come back or not, I'll just watch.
<br /> crash/ <br /><br /><br />I think all we have proved is that we cannot prove anything in regards to this hoax.<br /><br /><br />I give up.<br /><br /><br />MJ, come back or not, I'll just watch.<br />
<br /> crash/ <br /><br /><br />I think all we have proved is that we cannot prove anything in regards to this hoax.<br /><br /><br />I give up.<br /><br /><br />MJ, come back or not, I'll just watch.<br />
<br /> <br /> <br /> the best resolution. Me too.<br />
To all giving up on proving the hoax, sting or murder:<br /> <br /> we TRIED !<br /> despite huge obstacles of limited capacities, limited access and limited time<br /> we were willing to participate in the audition and learn the spins.<br /> <br /> we DISCOVERED !<br /> tons of contradictions, potential connections, evidence of lies.<br /> <br /> we CONNECTED !<br /> and did not draw back into our snail shell and wept but jumped from dot to dot and drew the lines.<br /> <br /> we ANSWERED !<br /> each other's questions and supported each other in times of doubt.<br /> <br /> we UNITED !<br /> and came together over Michael from all over the world and discovered that we are truly ONE IN LOVE.<br /> <br /> <br /> If all of this is nothing then I am Martin Luther King:<br /> <br />
I am happy to join with you today in what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation.
<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> There's nothing to be afraid of and nothing to be proven - except:<br /> <br /> WE are the world.<br /> As much as "they" don't care about us, we have built our HIStory in concrete evidence within 2+ years:<br /> We do care about us. <br /> We do care about each other.<br /> <br /> This is the one truth that cannot be ignored, be it hoax and/or sting or murder.<br /> <br /> Blessings, brothers and sisters, and much L.O.V.E. <br /> Thank you to each one of you for being here.
Funny how as time goes by and new developments take place, that when you re-read TS' wordy posts, new things jump out at you, every time. I think he makes them wordy to hide gems better /cook/. Timeless perfection! <br /><br />The reason why no single theory/argument (such as about the body) is solid is because genius MJ has deliberately inserted details that contradict/confuse/mislead every single one of them. As if when he was planning this hoax, he foreknew the various conclusions we would come up with and preplanned a monkey-wrench to throw in each one. That's why it seems we're going in circles and after 2 years have nothing concrete to display on a billboard as in your face proof that Michael is alive and hoaxed his death. That's why nonbeLIEvers scoff at us. It's why we're all addicted here, because we all hope to find/hear the information our fried minds (mine anyway fresse/) long to hear--the missing links, the confirmations, the magic interpretive key. We are truly all squished into the back of Front's truck bumping along, he's not watching where he's going because he's mostly watching our reactions and he knows what's ahead. Who would want to get off except those who can't take it anymore :-[/pull hair/. Not me for one! MJ's alive and hoaxed his death, that's all I'm 200%sure of. bow/ But I'm loving the journey Michael, and with you all!
<br /> crash/ <br /><br /><br />I think all we have proved is that we cannot prove anything in regards to this hoax.<br /><br /><br />I give up.<br /><br /><br />MJ, come back or not, I'll just watch.<br />
<br /> <br />Exactly and that's why I come out with some other scenarios. Which are probably stupid.. Bec do not give up.. We need to persevere. One day Michael will come out and tell us..
As people are giving up, it's time for a sexy ;D video ;D with Michael ;D<br /><br />I'm gonna watch one right now bounce/ bounce/ bounce/ (and keep the link to myself :twisted:)<br /><br />ps: as hard as I try I see no sting in all these.
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"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."