I see the d**th photo and autopsy pic and neither one matches the frail old man with peach fuzz that we've been told about. Someone on this forum for the first year+ (she said she lives in San Diego) has a cousin whose friend works at UCLA. The cousin asked this person questions and was told that this person was the one who put the toe tag on MJ. He said the body looked like MJ but was old and frail with peach fuzz. I can't fit that in.
Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.
<br /><br />That's not entirely accurate come to think of it, TS. The guy who waited with the firetruck (traffic cone man), presumably Jeff Mills, doesn't have to be in on it if he waited with the truck the whole time.
<br /><br /><br />watched this video again.<br /><br />So there were four paramedics in the room: Martin Blount, Richard Sennef, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron.<br />Jeff Mills was not there who's the captain.<br /><br />
on 1353381749:
<br />
Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.
<br /><br />That's not entirely accurate come to think of it, TS. The guy who waited with the firetruck (traffic cone man), presumably Jeff Mills, doesn't have to be in on it if he waited with the truck the whole time.<br />
<br /><br />as Bec said, Jeff Mills might not be knowing of the dummy...is there a reason why the "dummy" fact has been hidden from the captain, does he even know? if not, why?<br /><br />If there is a specific reason behind appointing Blount in the Shift C, there probably has to be a link between Michael and blount in some or the other way. Blount would be able to understand the whole hoax situation accurately and therefore would lead the team (and in some way influence the captain, Jeff Mills) so that the pre-meditated plan by Michael would carry out properly...<br /><br />this is just a thought...
When TS says “what” instead of “who” went to UCLA, he could also be referring to a corpse, even if recently deceased, which becomes an “it”. So he doesn’t have to be inferring a dummy.<br /><br />I watched the 4 Blount videos again, and again it’s so hard to tell from that if dummy or hospice patient/corpse fits better, or even if he is in on the hoax. I'm probably repeating old thoughts somewhere, but if it was a dummy used that looked like MJ, then why were all the house staff sent home before they came downstairs with the body—they would have believed it was him if they were not in on the hoax. If it was a hospice patient, the EMT would have been fooled possibly, but the staff not. Blount said the body had been dead much longer than the 1 minute Murray claimed. The biggest problem I see with the hospice patient possibly looking like the ‘frail Asian bald man’, is that the autopsy body/pics wouldn’t be matching, and then EMT’s and hospital staff might speak out on this difference. He said Sennef tried to get a vein but couldn’t , but then tried in the neck, but then Brazil was interrupted and we didn’t get if he was successful then—no vein would work for both options. Kathy Hilton rubbing ‘MJ’s’ head and feet at UCLA, and Latoya and Karen Faye dressing him so many days later work better with a dummy, less gross. Whether it was a corpse or dummy, why was the back board looking like it carried a body to the helicopter, but flat when going from the heli to coroner van? If it was not MJ flying outta there in the heli, what was the point except only to draw our attention to what was on there? BTW, did anyone ever figure out why the ambu pic has a white arm doing the airway, and Blount is black? <br /><br />This is an interesting read from way back, and one post from Mjsmyheart.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18185.msg320915.html#msg320915<br />what I believe is that the paramedics are actually FBI agents that really work as paramedics. What I mean by that, is that when the FBI is working on a mission I would assume they would have their own trained paramedics because of the nature of their cases; I don't think a regular paramedic would have the same advanced training that I assume the FBI paramedics would because the FBI are trained for some of the worst type of situations. ..<br /><br />Unfortunately, I don’t believe the evidence that you have provided proves that they are not FBI agents, it only proves that they are potentially real paramedics vs. being actors. Just because there are pictures taken of them at a pancake breakfast fundraiser doesn’t disqualify them being FBI agents that work as paramedics either. The picture could just be another tactic for those of us that are investigating to try to deter us so that we think that-since they are at a function with other paramedics they must really work for LAFD. With that theory, I would also have to assume that Murray’s trail is 100% real because it takes place in a real court.<br /><br />Thanks to TMZ we at least know that SWAT is involved; now with these higher government agencies like the FBI and SWAT every detail is carefully planned out down to the tiniest of details just like how Michael planned everything down to the minute. In order to make sure their mission is completed successfully you have to assume (unless you work for one of these agencies and know otherwise) that it takes a great deal of time to work out any bumps in the road possibly years just like many assume MJ has been working on this hoax for over decade. Who’s to say that the FBI didn’t plant their men in the LAFD years ago to work undercover? I also believe that this theory would still make it so that they would continue working there months after the alleged death; that way when the hoax did come into play people wouldn’t question the paramedics that just came and went involved in MJ's death... that would be very suspicious!
<br /><br />
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedic ... -arrived/3<br />Paramedics: Jackson Dead When We Arrived<br />7/26/2009 9:30 PM PDT by TMZ Staff <br /><br />Law enforcement sources tell us when paramedics arrived at Michael Jackson's house he was already dead ... and it took them a while to even realize the victim was the famous singer.<br /><br />Our sources say when paramedics got to Jackson's home he was flatlined. There was no electrical activity in his heart and Jackson showed no sign of life.<br /><br />Multiple sources say paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the scene but Dr. Conrad Murray insisted that the singer be transported to the hospital. Dr. Murray -- as a higher medical authority than the EMTs -- had the power to overrule them.<br /><br />Paramedics didn't realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: "It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man."
<br /><br />So if the medics are in, I vote dummy.<br /><br />
<br />......... if it was a dummy used that looked like MJ, then why were all the house staff sent home before they came downstairs with the body—they would have believed it was him if they were not in on the hoax. .........<br /><br />........ BTW, did anyone ever figure out why the ambu pic has a white arm doing the airway, and Blount is black? <br /><br />
<br /><br />Re the first point above - a silly thought maybe, but what if MJ, out of a sort of concern or kindness perhaps, simply didn't want those of his staff who weren't in the know about the hoax, to witness anything at all, so it was written into the day's plans that they be told to leave at that point. It would surely have been upsetting for them, and as it wasn't true anyway (that he'd died or was dying) he wanted to spare them that. From then on, they were with the rest of us, with access to all his clues, without the added 'complication' of having (thought they'd) seen him dead. Just a thought!<br /><br />Re Blount and the ambu-arm, purposely to add another inconsistency for the eagle eyed maybe? ..... and also did we ever find out who actually drove the ambulance to UCLA?
Mjsmyheart's post makes a lot of sense to me...<br /><br />Martin Blount is, maybe, an FBI Agent/Parmendic and that explains Ts's post below<br /><br />
on 1353334197:
<br />... and speaking of getting back to what went to UCLA ...<br /><br />Fire Station 71, Shift C: Jeff Mills (Captain), Richard Senneff, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron, Sean Mills.<br /><br />Did anyone know that Martin Blount was not from the same shift (he was from the A Shift)?<br /><br />:icon_e_confused:<br /><br />
<br /><br />and the staff, maybe it wasn't really necessary for all of the house staff to know.<br />(as less number of people as possible? :icon_e_confused:)<br />I feel that all those who appeared in the court as witnesses are the ones who might definitely be in the hoax....<br /><br />
on 1353413577:
<br />When TS says “what” instead of “who” went to UCLA, he could also be referring to a corpse, even if recently deceased, which becomes an “it”. So he doesn’t have to be inferring a dummy.<br /><br /> BTW, did anyone ever figure out why the ambu pic has a white arm doing the airway, and Blount is black? <br />...<br /><br />So if the medics are in, I vote dummy.<br /><br />...<br />
<br /><br />Even i thought of that, "what" might not necessarily be a dummy it could be a corpse too.<br />But for me the 'no body' theory fits well into the hoax.<br />And that would mean most of the people (not all) are involved. <br /><br />I am cocluding my thoughts:<br />-Whoever was in the room on 6/25/2009 is in the hoax<br />-Jeff Mills did not come up to the room, therefore not involved<br />- I don't know who the driver is, and probably he's also not involved.<br />- There's a dummy, that was used as "a patient" on 6/25/2009 and was also used for the 'autopsy picture' and 'gurney picture'<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />(http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WGX3TlPcZZ4)<br />- Blount has to be FBI<br /><br />...that's it....<br /><br />
on 1353421854:
<br /><br /><br /><br />
So there were four paramedics in the room: Martin Blount, Richard Sennef, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron.Jeff Mills was not there who's the captain.
<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />And how many people were in the ambulance including Murray and the corpse or dummy? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
The biggest problem I see with the hospice patient possibly looking like the ‘frail Asian bald man’, is that the autopsy body/pics wouldn’t be matching, and then EMT’s and hospital staff might speak out on this difference. <br />
<br /><br />I think that even if they realized that he didn't really look like the MJ they saw, they couldn't really do much about it as everybody else says it's MJ and it's all over the news. They can just go with the flow and wait it out. After all that would just be about appearance.<br /><br />And as they worked the situation maybe that they don't want to put themselves in the light of an embarassing and somewhat strange situation. What can they really do? They can't prove anything and it's just based on their recollection of the events. Recollection that must have been altered we can assume by the intensity of the situation and I think the time difference between the events of 25 June 2009 and the broadcast of the autopsy and gurney pictures later in 2011 allows for doubt to creep in. So in my view it's not such a big problem. Now have things been planned and played out this way I cannot tell. It's not a sure science here, lol.<br /><br />I also think that the information about Blount having been brought in from another shift (TS' post) indicates that he was needed specifically, maybe in order to make things flow. Therefore it seems to me that only Blount is in the know so the hospice patient theory seems plausible as it would be required to fool all those that are not in the know. A dummy might have been used for the autopsy and gurney picture. So I'm thinking right now hospice patient and dummy used.
<br />......... if it was a dummy used that looked like MJ, then why were all the house staff sent home before they came downstairs with the body—they would have believed it was him if they were not in on the hoax. .........<br /><br />........ BTW, did anyone ever figure out why the ambu pic has a white arm doing the airway, and Blount is black? <br /><br />
<br /><br />Re the first point above - a silly thought maybe, but what if MJ, out of a sort of concern or kindness perhaps, simply didn't want those of his staff who weren't in the know about the hoax, to witness anything at all, so it was written into the day's plans that they be told to leave at that point. It would surely have been upsetting for them, and as it wasn't true anyway (that he'd died or was dying) he wanted to spare them that. From then on, they were with the rest of us, with access to all his clues, without the added 'complication' of having (thought they'd) seen him dead. Just a thought!<br /><br />Re Blount and the ambu-arm, purposely to add another inconsistency for the eagle eyed maybe? ..... and also did we ever find out who actually drove the ambulance to UCLA?<br />
<br /><br /><br />I agree, if the household staff were not aware of what was going on, it's best to have them out of way, for their sake and for the hoax's sake. If they had seen an MJ-looking dummy, the one from the ambulance photo, they would know there was trickery afoot. MJ is known for having dummies around his houses so there really wouldn't be any questions asked if he had one of himself, at a younger age.<br /><br /><br />Another argument against the cadaver would be getting it. Even if UCLA provided a body, it would still need to be arranged and brought to the house and then carried upstairs to the bedroom. To make it easier, let's say that Murray and a bodyguard went to pick up the body and bring it to the house. They would need to clear the house of staff so they wouldn't see a dead body coming in...that can't be easily explained away if someone saw it...and then clear the house of staff AGAIN once the ambulance arrived.<br /><br /><br />Curls, I was wondering about that as well last night - did we ever determine who drove back to UCLA if Blount said he was at MJ's head in the back of the ambulance? I'm drawing a blank. Reversing in a driveway was clearly not that driver's specialty.
The house staff would likely notice something was up right quick if a dummy that looked like MJ from 1987 was used. <br /><br />3 firemen arrived in the firetruck, 2 in the ambulance. 1 man would need to drive the firetruck away (Mills, presumably), the other 4 went in the ambulance; 3 in the back and 1 driver. All makes sense.<br /><br />Blount was "at the head" in the jump seat on the passenger side of the ambulance, he was not the man working the ambu-bag as shown in the pic. TS cleared this up last year in so far as interior ambulance seat positions (well at least, it makes sense based on pic/testimony in addition to TS's statement). His seated position would not be visible in the famous ambulance shot as he would be to the left of the black bag (with yellow stripe) pictured in the lower right of the frame.<br /><br />So we have the two white men working on the patient, Blount in the jump seat "at the head", and one man to drive. That makes sense with what we saw and the reported # of men on the scene. We will have to presume Murray was seated next to Blount, as the passenger side jump seat has room for 2 as I recall from ambulance interior pics.<br /><br />Unfortunately that count also makes sense with TS's UCLA stretcher gif # of legs study. There would be 4 EMTs accompanying the stretcher into UCLA in those shots. <br /><br />I don't see any reason to speculate that Blount is an FBI agent except in an attempt to satisfy TS's hints re: FBI involvement. <br /><br />Blount can't be the only one in on it if he's testifying that the other paramedics worked on the patient. EMTs are going to notice they are attempting to resuscitate an inanimate object and therefore must be in on it.<br /><br />Besides, why send only ONE agent if this is an FBI infiltration set up? And send that one agent to try n convince 4 other paramedics to work on a dummy and accept that it is a "real" person? <br /><br />Are we speculating that the paramedics/LAFD are the focus of the sting? (If Blount is the only agent, it suggests that he is infiltrating LAFD for some unknown reason) That doesn't make sense to me.<br /><br />The "frail, old man" comments were never substantiated and may well be tabloid fabrications. No paramedic sat on the stand and reiterated these comments. <br /><br />I have been at the scene of 911 calls when paramedics responded and more then 2 attending is quite normal. I have seen 4 and 5 paramedics attend as routine, never less then 3. Unfortunately EMTs need to respond occasionally at my job so I have some personal experience with this.<br /><br />I just have to add, along with the sole reason we are speculating that Blount might be an FBI agent is because TS is pushing this theory and we are trying to resolve it somehow... the sole reason we accept that Blount was not scheduled to work that shift is because TS says so. The pic that was posted in 2009 of the LAFD shift schedule was never substantiated to be current on 6/25/09 (as it was posted at a later date--schedules can/do get changed), which is why the topic long ago got ditched. We are only running with this story line now because "TS says so"... unless I'm missing some information.
<br />Ps. How many paramedics testified at the trial? Anyone remember?<br />
<br /><br /><br />I think it was just the two, Senneff and Blount. I just typed all their names, individually, into youtube and those are the only two I found trial footage on.
Part of the declaration of Blount<br /><br /><br />MB led the rescue ambulance. RS was sitting beside her. He came to Carolwood and stationed the ambulance and went into the House. The fire truck accompanied them and was stationed with the street. Mills fire captain, the paramedics Goodwin and Herron were in the fire truck. <br />MB went with MJ to UCLA. He was sitting in the head. Other drugs of boot to MJ in the way they administered. There was no change in the situation of Michael Jackson on the road. MB saw and heard CM on the phone. MB heard cm "is Michael and that is not well" on the phone. MB does not know with whom CM was talking on the phone.
Only 2 of 4 testified? How odd considering the pic all the normal people accept as being from the scene (ambulance pic) shows 2 white guys directly working on the patient. Why wasn't at least that second guy called as witness? He would be able to testify as to the patient's condition en route to UCLA.<br /><br />Additionally these other 2 men would be able to testify as to the condition n lay out of the room at Carrolwood, Murray's actions, the condition and location of the patient when they arrived, etc.<br /><br />Since these other 2 paramedics never testified as to their actions/locations that day, MJ could easily be in one of their places traveling to UCLA in Live MJ scenario. We don't have statements under oath from either of them to refute that theory, in any case.<br /><br />4 men in paramedic-type uniforms walked into UCLA along side that stretcher. 2 are accounted for by trial testimony. The other 2 are unknowns. We can put a name to them but it cannot be substantiated that they were actually there, leaving the possibility that MJ was standing in for one of them an open-ended possibility.<br /><br />The two that are unknowns are the hidden man who's leg TS pointed out and the dark haired man pushing the stretcher to the right of Senneff's position in the stretcher gif. Presumably this is the same man who lifted the foot of the stretcher to place in the ambulance in Ben's video from over the fence at Carrolwood that day. Dark, short cropped hair, slight build. The same man who some believed had a ponytail, but turned out to be just poor video resolution shadows.<br /><br />Speaking of resolution, I believe that also accounts for the "flat" appearance of the body that came out of the helicopter that day. If you'll refer to the tape, the resolution is poor during that scene, it washes the van out to a solid white color, removing the appearance of minor detail from the surface of the van, and would do the same thing to a cloth covered "body" as well. If all detail is washed out, it leaves the appearance of a flat object, as opposed to one that has depth/texture.<br /><br />TS taught me this during the study of the Carrolwood gates video (when we were trying to prove one day of filming or two) which removed the watersprouts from the shrubs along side the entrance of the house. Low resolution has large pixels which pick up the major background color and enlarge it to create a square of that single color, effectively erasing all subtle detail within that square of space, resulting in the appearance of a flat surface as opposed to one that has minor detail; too minor for the resolution to pick up on film.
<br />It is quite odd that only 2 of 4 had to testify, especially when Murray's actions that day were a major focus of the trial. I would think the prosecution would want all 4 paramedics to testify, I mean, they called a witness from a cell phone company about Murray's texts/calls that day so why not get the full picture from 4 key witnesses who were actually there with Murray? Maybe there was an agreement in place that the other 2 would participate in the events that day but wouldn't have to testify. And their lack of testimony definitely leaves a space available for MJ. And if MJ wasn't on the stretcher then he would most assuredly be in disguise.
The "frail old sickly man" IMHO is not a reference to MJ but to the sting target. <br />A so to say hint in the public eye to prevent from entrapment.<br />"Four years" referring to advanced age or else s/he would be deceased.
<br />The "frail old sickly man" IMHO is not a reference to MJ but to the sting target. <br />A so to say hint in the public eye to prevent from entrapment.<br />"Four years" referring to advanced age or else s/he would be deceased.<br />
<br /><br /><br />Interesting thought. Do you have someone in mind? Actually, wasn't it the Sun (Murdoch's paper) that made all the inaccurate claims as to the condition of MJ's "body" during the autopsy? Skeletal, bald, needle marks, etc. The coroner dismissed those claims...but someone could've fed the Sun that false info and they ran with it. I don't know why but Murdoch first came to mind when I read your post.
Didn't one of the EMTs say they covered 'MJ' s face for privacy when transporting him - that would've meant any household staff would not have seen him anyway. There was actually no need to dismiss them if they were only meant not to see his face as in dummy, corpse, dead or alive MJ theories. Asking them to leave indicates either they weren't meant to see anything at all of the goings on, or they weren't meant to see nothing, as in that nothing was transported at all, if you get what I mean.
Yes but the "stalker" fan saw something on the stretcher so that refutes the nothing theory.<br /><br />Maybe the staff wasn't supposed to see that bent upright knee like the Leave Me Alone dummy has (haha). Face or no face, that's kind of a dead (ha) giveaway.<br /><br />Is anyone really going to cover the face of a patient having trouble (or not) breathing unless they're dead? And privacy reasons? They're inside a private home/within a fully fenced/gated courtyard. Is that face covering report substantiated or just another rumor?<br /><br />Remember other rumors that they put MJ's wig on before transporting him (hahahahahahahaaaa ugh).
<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Well, that is one of the things that are not understood in the trial, two witnesses direct of what happened inside the house that were not called to testify.
Comments