If he moves or coughs in the helicopter and those guys are in on it, that's a problem. If someone sneaks a peak and he's clearly not dead inside that sheet, that's a problem. Meanwhile a decoy dead body (morgue has plenty available) is substituted it would be accepted as a decoy while the real thing (real dead MJ) is somewhere else.
<br /><br /><br />Human beings are curious, there was a possibility that the people in the helicopter be discover the corpse of the most famous artist of the world.<br />
<br /><br /><br />That's true. The Carolwood-UCLA transportation was pre-planned as the evidence we have shows. Why wouldn't the UCLA-coroner transportation be as well? Did MJ only make plans to get to the hospital but not the coroner (who is also in on it?) A year ago, I had convinced myself that I saw the body move once it was placed in the back of the coroner van, it looked like the body shifted itself when the guy moved it. It's so hard to tell though. I still see it but I also realize my eyes could be playing a trick on me. It's at about 5:21 in the video below. The "sitting-up" is at about 1:36. It's also noteworthy to mention that while Geraldo is talking - about MJ's financial woes, tour worries, auctions - footage of the helicopter flying is playing out, with the Bad short film playing beside it. Starting just before the first minute of the video and lasts for 14 seconds. <br /><br /><br /><br />Once the body is placed in the back of the van with watchful people surrounding it, the van is police escorted to the garage. What/whoever was on that stretcher had very few opportunities for discovery by an unplanned witness. Full transportation details for the body had to be pre-planned for that day which includes the helicopter ride. The movie aspect of the hoax goes well with this considering the helicopter footage is very "Hollywood" - guy leaning out of the open door for no apparent reason and why does the door have to be open like that. Again, the FBI blanket can be used to cover any interfering details. I know it's very convenient to say the helicopter/van people were in on it but at least one person in the helicopter and one in the van would need to be - whatever or whoever is on the stretcher.
<br />OT - Does anyone have a copy of the L A newspaper with Michael’s publicly placed obituary in it? Usually placed the next day. I’ve seen many mentions in different newspapers from all over the world. I’ve seen like an autobiography written in the L.A. Times, but never the original notice that was placed by the family. I’m sure I probably overlooked it in my grief stricken days. I just wondered if anyone has a copy of the newspaper and can scan it here.<br />
<br /><br />But are those family placed? They sound more like commentaries the media wrote up. The family one would be kind of general without listing all his accomplishments & referencing his trials and tribulations. <br />
<br /><br />The family placed one doesn't show on LA paper site, maybe there isn't one :icon_question: :icon_e_confused: this is all I could find - bottom of page only shows links from other papers... http://www.legacy.com/NS/Obituary.aspx?pid=128911426
<br />The Carolwood-UCLA transportation was pre-planned as the evidence we have shows. Why wouldn't the UCLA-coroner transportation be as well? Did MJ only make plans to get to the hospital but not the coroner (who is also in on it?) <br /><br />Once the body is placed in the back of the van with watchful people surrounding it, the van is police escorted to the garage. What/whoever was on that stretcher had very few opportunities for discovery by an unplanned witness. Full transportation details for the body had to be pre-planned for that day which includes the helicopter ride. The movie aspect of the hoax goes well with this considering the helicopter footage is very "Hollywood" - guy leaning out of the open door for no apparent reason and why does the door have to be open like that. Again, the FBI blanket can be used to cover any interfering details. I know it's very convenient to say the helicopter/van people were in on it but at least one person in the helicopter and one in the van would need to be - whatever or whoever is on the stretcher.<br />
<br /><br />That's a good point, Andrea. Once at UCLA, MJ has to leave somehow eventually.<br /><br />To go back to the "stalker" fan's statement that who/what was on the stretcher didn't look like MJ because it was "too short" (makes me feel like she saw the feet end of the stretcher), how familiar would she be with recognizing MJ in a lying down position? People's judgments of size aren't always accurate especially when making determinations from unfamiliar perspectives. How could she accurately judge how "long" MJ's body ought to be when lying on a stretcher? She would have no prior experience to compare to so I'm not sure she should be considered a reliable witness, and certainly not an expert witness on the dimensions of MJ's body in different positions.
If MJ went into UCLA alive in person (which would be the easiest way to leave Carolwood unnoticed), UCLA is a good location to get out of focus. The elevators are close to the emergency area and they go down to the parking garage. There are special elevators for staff and hospital transports only that aren't accessible to the public. There are two aspects as to what to hide from: 1) the public - MJ being discovered would end in a drama; 2) uninformed staff - locks and insider knowledge where to go and where not to go in the corridors and how to place covering sheets would absolutely do. There are many stretchers pushed around from A to B and nobody knows why and needs to read the patient information carried with the patient to understand why that stretcher is at that specific location. So nobody would care about somebody pushing a stretcher somewhere.<br /><br />We tend to assign our individual perception onto others and new situations. Now starting with "OMG the KoP arrived at a hospital" translates into "I am aware that this is a very special person to me who is said to be in a situation of distress". As the person means much to me, I am put into distress myself. It hurts me to see someone beloved in difficulties. Almost automatically I will assume that everybody else must think and feel alike and will put emotional glasses on - which is just not true.<br /><br />A hospital first of all is a hospital and then it's meant for everybody and there are many, many patients entering an emergency entrance during the course of a day. There is always a lot of stress and hectic at emergency so there is little attention to each and every detail. Some staff might not even be aware that the Michael Jackson entering is "the" Michael Jackson, KoP. There are hundreds Michael Jacksons in California. If staff acknowledge the KoP (due to bodyguards and VIP whispers), there are procedures in place how to manage emergencies with VIPs. This is daily business for a hospital, not an emotional exception. It is an emotional exception for me to get into a hospital. People working there see hospital situation all the time. Same applies to a cemetery. For me it is (emotionally burdened) exception, for staff there it is regular duty. (A cemetery is a great place to go to refresh the soul btw. for it is the most quiet, calm place in our daily hectic routines.)<br /><br />MJ in the hospital: getting out of any situation is easier when the place is crowded or the attention is elsewhere. Fire alarm in hospital and trial, e.g., staff only corridors, technical supply corridors, hidden (to the public) doors, elevators, exits. Where is the laundry, where the food supply - we've seen movies with folks hiding in boxes and laundry often enough. Why leave with a coroner van that draws attention - why not leave with a bakery van? (There might be leftovers of pie in it in addition ;-))<br />We have seen CCTV cameras (video of CM entering the hall) were sending out coloured light flashes. That's not standard operation for surveillance cameras, thus the main camera system might have had technical issues that day. <br /><br />If no corpse went from Carolwood to UCLA, it was MJ alive in the ambulance, getting out of spotlight from a 2 exit location to a crowded area with many unknown exits - what more did he need. I stick to the dummy from UCLA to the coroner for the time being as long as we don't have new insights into why the stretcher was completely flat when unloaded from the chopper, lol. Best hideout of "what" as the sheets remain knotted until the coroner's stretcher gets into the coroner's office. The person "in" can take care of the dummy getting out of the house again - if the dummy is not required for young folks' education at the coroner anyway.<br />
<br />If MJ went into UCLA alive in person (which would be the easiest way to leave Carolwood unnoticed), UCLA is a good location to get out of focus. The elevators are close to the emergency area and they go down to the parking garage. There are special elevators for staff and hospital transports only that aren't accessible to the public. There are two aspects as to what to hide from: 1) the public - MJ being discovered would end in a drama; 2) uninformed staff - locks and insider knowledge where to go and where not to go in the corridors and how to place covering sheets would absolutely do. There are many stretchers pushed around from A to B and nobody knows why and needs to read the patient information carried with the patient to understand why that stretcher is at that specific location. So nobody would care about somebody pushing a stretcher somewhere.<br />
<br /><br />To me this is a very good point of why Live MJ was used, plus it would get rid of two major hurdles; Getting MJ out of Carolwood and it will take care of the events that happened on June 25th 2009 (such as MJ dying).<br /><br />BTC;<br />
I also remember TS coming along and figuratively smacking us on the back of the head for entertaining the idea
<br /><br />Haha oh yeah who could forget that...now I guess we know how Dinozzo feels when Agent Gibbs does that to him :icon_lol:<br /><br />Anyway here is the links you were looking for where it talks about debunking the green screen theory<br /><br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg374089.html#msg374089<br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg373354.html#msg373354<br /><br />@Adi, thanks again :icon_e_biggrin:<br />@DWA thank you for your support :icon_e_smile:<br /><br />Haha someone probably mentioned this but TS_comments number of post so far stands at 226 (as in time of death 2:26)...hmmm clue or coincidence? :icon_lol:<br /><br />Oh and he has a percentage of (0.340 per day which by my calculations :icon_e_geek: add up to 3+4=7) :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
i'm thinking about the reports that said, MJ was unconscious, he was in a coma etc...It's quite possible that MJ could be slightly sedated to avoid any kind of minor errors...He would still be awake, but would kind of be dull. <br /><br />@Bec ... TS talking both about Michael Joseph Jackson being the alleged victim and the DWD patient is definitely contradicting. TS is guiding us and at the same time is telling us not to believe him completely. <br /><br />I don't really think that there would be any need for the helicopter guys to be in on it. It would have been safer for Michael to escape from UCLA, rather than from UCLA to the coroner via the helicopter. The REAL ACTION on June 25th was when Michael travelled from Carolwood to UCLA. This starting point was very crucial. Once it started off well, Michael could've escaped from UCLA and then a real dead body travelled to the coroner's. And the coroner would be in on it. or there could also have been a dummy that travelled to coroner, I mean would the heli guys really check whether this person is real or dummy?<br /><br />BTW- great post ellyd!! Live MJ fron Carolwood to UCLA and dummy/body from UCLA to coroner...<br /><br />anything against this theory?
<br />OT - Does anyone have a copy of the L A newspaper with Michael’s publicly placed obituary in it? Usually placed the next day. I’ve seen many mentions in different newspapers from all over the world. I’ve seen like an autobiography written in the L.A. Times, but never the original notice that was placed by the family. I’m sure I probably overlooked it in my grief stricken days. I just wondered if anyone has a copy of the newspaper and can scan it here.<br /><br />Here are the 2 places Michael is buried according to Find A Grave: :LolLolLolLol:<br /><br /> Jackson, Michael [cenotaph] b. August 29, 1958 d. June 25, 2009<br />Musician, Entertainer. He was called the "King of Pop," and is best remembered for his revolutionary videos such as "Thriller" (1982), and "Dangerous" (1991), as well as two Guinness World Records: Most successful entertainer of all time (with 13 Grammy Awards, 13 Number One single hits in a solo career, and sales of over 750 million in albums worldwide), and for having the greatest selling album of all time ("Thriller"). He is also remembered for his trademark single sequined white glove, and...[Read More] (Bio by: Kit and Morgan Benson)<br />Woodlawn Cemetery, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, USA<br />Plot: Near front entrance at first drive to right, in Section 6<br />http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=59849915<br /><br /><br />Jackson, Michael b. August 29, 1958 d. June 25, 2009<br />Musician, Entertainer. He was called the "King of Pop," and is best remembered for his revolutionary videos such as "Thriller" (1982), and "Dangerous" (1991), as well as two Guinness World Records: Most successful entertainer of all time (with 13 Grammy Awards, 13 Number One single hits in a solo career, and sales of over 750 million in albums worldwide), and for having the greatest selling album of all time ("Thriller"). He is also remembered for his trademark single sequined white glove, and...[Read More] (Bio by: Kit and Morgan Benson)<br />Cause of death: Acute Propofol intoxication compounded by the effects of benzodiazapines or a benzodiazapine.<br />Forest Lawn Memorial Park (Glendale), Glendale, Los Angeles County, California, USA<br />Plot: Great Mausoleum, Holly Terrace, Sanctuary of Ascension. This mausoleum is private and locked to the general public.<br /><br />http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=38746353<br />
<br /><br /><br /><br />If my memory serves me correctly wasnt the grave listed in Detroit the one where all the toys and momentos were burried that the fans had left for MJ. Im sure thats what happened. :animal0017: Someone correct me if Im wrong of course.
Just some thoughts.<br /><br />TS disproved that MJ sat up on the stretcher by showing there were legs of another person walking behind the stretcher. But what if MJ got off the stretcher and was walking behind just to drive us crazy. How on earth did some medic look so much like MJ with a ponytail? Are medics allowed to have ponytails. I don't know if this LAFD hair rule is still in place in 2009, or if it doesn't apply to paramedics working in the LAFD only firefighters. According to here he/she would have to wear it up.<br />http://www.lafdtraining.org/ists/volume2v0805.pdf<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />You know when they transported the body from UCLA to the heli, the body was flopping slightly (or is it my imagination), and wouldn’t rigor mortis keep the body stiff? <br /><br /><br /><br />We know Blount drove the ambulance to the house, but do we know who drove to UCLA? We have never identified the dark-haired medic that looked like MJ in disguise. And whoever it was didn’t have to testify so can stay hidden. Of course all the team would have to be in.<br /><br /><br /><br />Bec, thanks for finding those many places of TS’s telling us to not necessarily take what he says at face value.<br /><br />About TS’s wording, aren’t ‘leftovers’ unwanted or used for some other dish or usage like scraps for the dog? Was using a DWD patient a left-over unwanted portion of the hoax planning of options?<br /><br />TS said Jermaine HAD to be telling the truth about MJ going to the airport, because if their clues weren’t correct it meant MJ really was dead as they publicly were saying. I don’t see the logic in that, because they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain. Can anyone remember other instances of family giving out a hoax clue that wasn't necessarily correct but still hoaxy?<br /><br />I remember in the Bad docu, Slash telling about being asked to play guitar. He told Quincy only if Michael was going to be there IN PERSON. And Quincy laughed and said 'Of course he’s going to there—it’s his record'. Well isn’t this MJ’s death hoax? :icon_lol:<br /><br />Kenny Ortega told the court that MJ said on the 24th that he was going to disappear from a bed to perform an illusion the next day. So what exactly IS that illusion? Did he disappear from the bed to the airport early in the morning on the 25th and be replaced by a body or dummy? Or is ‘disappear’ really a metaphor for ‘die’? He will supposedly ‘die’ on the bed and disappear into the land of the dead? In which case the absolute best illusion would be appearing dead and fooling everyone. It would be the most convincing of all the choices, but the hardest for MJ to do physically—keeping so still and deathlike. But knowing his perfectionist skills of all kinds, could he achieve this through practice, mind over matter/body? <br /><br />For a short while before the EMT came, Elvis said from extensive training, he had learned how to slow his breathing and heart rate right down, so that Ginger and initial people examining him thought he was dead and called for emergency help. Then just before they came somehow the switchero was done and he climbed in the closet in exchange for the hospice patient, something like that. Could MJ with help of meditation (Deepra Chopak or Paramahansa Yogananda) have had similar training to pull off something similar? <br /><br />I found this interesting given earlier on an emphasis on this man was given. Maybe a hint! :Michael_Jackson_dancing_smile<br />
Claims of bodily incorruptibility<br /><br />As reported in Time Magazine on August 4, 1952, Harry T. Rowe, Los Angeles Mortuary Director of the Forest Lawn Memorial Park Cemetery in Glendale, California, where Yogananda's body was embalmed,[29] wrote in a notarized letter[3][30]<br /><br />The absence of any visual signs of decay in the dead body of Paramhansa Yogananda offers the most extraordinary case in our experience... No physical disintegration was visible in his body even twenty days after death... No indication of mold was visible on his skin, and no visible drying up took place in the bodily tissues. This state of perfect preservation of a body is, so far as we know from mortuary annals, an unparalleled one... No odor of decay emanated from his body at any time...<br /><br />Rowe also noted the appearance of a brown spot on Yogananda's nose after twenty days. Some have pointed out that this degree of preservation of an embalmed body is common.[31] Rowe also said in the same sentence that there was no visible mold even on March 26. Rowe continues, "on March 27th there was no reason to say that his body had suffered any visible physical disintegration at all. For these reasons we state again that the case of Paramhansa Yogananda is unique in our experience."
About TS’s wording, aren’t ‘leftovers’ unwanted or used for some other dish or usage like scraps for the dog? Was using a DWD patient a left-over unwanted portion of the hoax planning of options?<br /><br />TS said Jermaine HAD to be telling the truth about MJ going to the airport, because if their clues weren’t correct it meant MJ really was dead as they publicly were saying. I don’t see the logic in that, because they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain. Can anyone remember other instances of family giving out a hoax clue that wasn't necessarily correct but still hoaxy?<br />
<br /><br />I just want to quote this about the ARG, just to remind that it's true we can all be going in another direction just to know what the right direction is...<br /><br />
Puppetmaster – A puppetmaster or "PM" is an individual involved in designing and/or running an ARG. Puppetmasters are simultaneously allies and adversaries to the player base, creating obstacles and providing resources for overcoming them in the course of telling the game's story. Puppetmasters generally remain behind the curtain while a game is running.[3] The real identity of puppet masters may or may not be known ahead of time.
<br />so, irrespective of this hoax being an ARG, some of it's elements can be adopted by Michael (who is our PM)<br /><br />And talking about airport... If Michael had escaped to some land from UCLA or the coroner, wouldn't there be any kind of problem in the airport? While the world was talking about MJ's death, he would have definitely faced issues because by then some or the other guy would have known about the news of his death...He can't be in a disguise. Of course Michael would have travelled in a private jet, but some customs would have to fulfilled in order to live in whichever country Michael landed in, and also the problems with the passport...he can't be in a disguise!<br /><br />So that would mean Michael escaped before the hoax even started ... Ur right MJonMind, he would have gone from bed to his desired destination...or maybe the previous day itself...just after the rehearsals
<br />OT - Does anyone have a copy of the L A newspaper with Michael’s publicly placed obituary in it? Usually placed the next day. I’ve seen many mentions in different newspapers from all over the world. I’ve seen like an autobiography written in the L.A. Times, but never the original notice that was placed by the family. I’m sure I probably overlooked it in my grief stricken days. I just wondered if anyone has a copy of the newspaper and can scan it here.<br /><br />Here are the 2 places Michael is buried according to Find A Grave: :LolLolLolLol:<br /><br /> Jackson, Michael [cenotaph] b. August 29, 1958 d. June 25, 2009<br />Musician, Entertainer. He was called the "King of Pop," and is best remembered for his revolutionary videos such as "Thriller" (1982), and "Dangerous" (1991), as well as two Guinness World Records: Most successful entertainer of all time (with 13 Grammy Awards, 13 Number One single hits in a solo career, and sales of over 750 million in albums worldwide), and for having the greatest selling album of all time ("Thriller"). He is also remembered for his trademark single sequined white glove, and...[Read More] (Bio by: Kit and Morgan Benson)<br />Woodlawn Cemetery, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, USA<br />Plot: Near front entrance at first drive to right, in Section 6<br />http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=59849915<br /><br /><br />Jackson, Michael b. August 29, 1958 d. June 25, 2009<br />Musician, Entertainer. He was called the "King of Pop," and is best remembered for his revolutionary videos such as "Thriller" (1982), and "Dangerous" (1991), as well as two Guinness World Records: Most successful entertainer of all time (with 13 Grammy Awards, 13 Number One single hits in a solo career, and sales of over 750 million in albums worldwide), and for having the greatest selling album of all time ("Thriller"). He is also remembered for his trademark single sequined white glove, and...[Read More] (Bio by: Kit and Morgan Benson)<br />Cause of death: Acute Propofol intoxication compounded by the effects of benzodiazapines or a benzodiazapine.<br />Forest Lawn Memorial Park (Glendale), Glendale, Los Angeles County, California, USA<br />Plot: Great Mausoleum, Holly Terrace, Sanctuary of Ascension. This mausoleum is private and locked to the general public.<br /><br />http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=38746353<br />
<br /><br /><br /><br />If my memory serves me correctly wasnt the grave listed in Detroit the one where all the toys and momentos were burried that the fans had left for MJ. Im sure thats what happened. :animal0017: Someone correct me if Im wrong of course. <br />
<br /><br /> :icon_e_confused: :icon_e_confused: :icon_e_confused: Fans actually purchased a grave site to bury toys and momentos? I wonder if they had a service for them...
And by that escape in an ambulance if it could have done at any other time, the night before the June 25 or the sunrise of that day there was much activity in Carolwood as you can see in the videos from the security cameras ( of very poor quality ), that's rare, a safety video should have better sharpness.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
<br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011<br /><br />Good eye! <!-- s --><!-- s --> <br /><br />Although some have said that this thread is just going in circles, and nothing accomplished, yet there has been some definite progress. There have been strong arguments presented both for and against the corpse theory (with neither side fully convincing the other). But this can be a good thing; we will get a lot more information during the hearings, and some may find it easier to keep the faith with the corpse theory.<br /><br />On the other hand, I agree with bec and others, that the corpse theory is the least desirable—and would certainly be avoided if there was any other feasible way. Some are very strongly opposed to this idea, while others are not; and although the emotional argument holds a lot of weight on this forum (at least with some), it probably would not hold much if any weight in a court of law—which is the type of evidence we are looking for.<br /><br />And yes, I did say the fewer the better, not the fewest the best; nevertheless, for the sake of the challenge if nothing else, let’s examine this question from the fewest possible concept (and this is NOT the actual case, but for the purpose of making the point). <br /><br />What if MJ actually died morning of 6-25-09: how many would need to be “in on it”? NONE! Why? Because it would not be a hoax, and there would be no hoax for anyone to be “in on”. Then what if someone else actually died morning of 6-25-09, such as a hospice patient on life support: how many would need to be “in on it”? None, EXCEPT the following: those at the house who knew about the hospice patient there (could be none other than MJ and Murray), and one or at most a few involved in the autopsy.<br /><br />[Did he mean that MJ dying on June 25th was NOT the actual case (which we already knew to be true)...or did his statement about this example NOT being the actual case also include the hospice patient dying on June 25th? Once again, TS' wording is 'tricky' lol]<br /><br />But in that case, wouldn’t people realize that it was not MJ? Scientific analysis (such as dental records) would only be done at the coroner; so this is why at least one there would need to be in. As far as visual recognition by others (paramedics, hospital staff, etc): this might not be as big of a problem as you would think. There are several things that would tend to distract people’s attention from the recognition factor: the power of suggestion (others saying that it is MJ), reports of baldness and wigs, and recent plastic surgery, and not very many recent pictures in the news, and the intensity of an emergency situation with a high profile VIP, and other distractions such as the fire alarm, etc (distractions created by the few who are in on it).<br /><br />We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ. And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also? In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it. Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.<br /><br />So again, if anyone can debunk the corpse theory, please do. But not with emotional reactions please, only documented evidence. And there were a couple of good comments on the life support patient idea {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766}.<br /><br />See also a similar but slightly different theory {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518}.<br />
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on 1304316315:
<br />In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance. In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD). In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used.<br /><br />Even though level three is still unresolved, yet we can and should start investigating level four (The Sting). Actually, level three and four are closely related—so much so that if we get a clear answer to level four, then level three will probably be easy to resolve (and vice versa).<br /><br />To be more specific: if it’s hoax court, then there would be little if any need to use a corpse; but if it is sting court, then the corpse theory has a strong case. This would not only reduce the people who would need to be in on it, but it would also allow witnesses to testify truthfully in real court under oath (both witnesses who are in on it, and those who are not).<br />
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on 1302563472:
<br />The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it. <br /><br />On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital). If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.<br />
<br /><br />I looked back to see if TS ever supported any theory of 'what' or 'who' was in the ambulance...and I may have missed some posts, but all I can find (so far) is that he's always supported, or at least 'hinted' at, the hospice theory...and has repeatedly asked us to investigate it (which many have done). Of course, it could be because he wanted us to debunk it once and for all (although that hasn't been done...not for this theory or a few others)....and it could be because he wanted to 'throw us off track'. Or, maybe, he's been telling us what happened all along?<br /><br />
on 1303971239:
<br />Sorry for your frustration. However, I am not changing theories around from one day to the next; maybe others have, but I have not.<br /><br />If I know what is up, just say it? I do, but people don't believe me. So I have to back it up with evidence; and that is not as easy as you might think.<br />
This statement by Paris supports that MJ left the previous night in his private jet...even before his hoax started?:<br /><br /><br /><br />{http://globalgrind.com/entertainment/paris-jackson-family-feud-michael-jackson-money-details }<br /><br />this tweet also stated in http://www.entertainmentwise.com/news/82087/Paris-Jackson-Defends-Grandmother-Katherine-<br /><br />This tweet by Paris is really suspicious because how in the world did Paris not see her father after that! if the story all straight, she would have seen Michael come back home from the rehearsals...<br /><br />and this statement by Latoya proves the dummy/corpse theory:<br /><br /><br /><br />at around 6:50 - latoya never saw the kids crying again...<br /><br />very hoaxy...
<br /> Can anyone remember other instances of family giving out a hoax clue that wasn't necessarily correct but still hoaxy?<br /><br />
<br /><br />"(TII) is full of body doubles" --Joe Jackson October 2009<br /><br />Wholly unsubstantiated.<br /><br />You guys have done great work since I went to bed! I am still reading the posts, just wanted to get that ^^ comment out of the way first.
<br />... So, let me get my flag :smiley-vault-misc-150: and say to you that I cannot apologize enough for that and I hope you can forgive me for that.
<br />... they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain.
<br /><br />Often things that appear contradictory are actually just misinterpretations of what is said. :icon_bounce:<br /><br />In this case, I was joking about MJ leaving from LA on June 25, 2009, and driving directly to Bahrain in a car--that, of course, was a joke. But just because MJ did not go direct from LA to Bahrain on 6-25-09 (via car--or even airplane or boat), does not mean that he has never once been in Bahrain since the day he "died". Elvis, for example, has traveled around quite a bit during his "dead" life.<br /><br />
I know what you’re saying BTC, and that last post you gave of TS saying he hadn’t changed his theory is the most helpful—he’s sounding like he’s being honest there. Lol It’s easy for him if he knows where the puzzle pieces go. Personally I lean towards trusting him that MJ did go to the airport and they used a DWD patient, but I still want to explore ALL the options fully and not leave anything to assumptions.<br /><br />In the other posts you gave, if anything TS sounds more like a sports play-by-play announcer, or like on Survivor host Jeff Probst gives the rules and then tells how each team is doing while they compete in the physical games. Then at the voting time he likes to draw out how players are feeling/thinking and how the strategy of winning is going. <br /><br />Thriller4ever, good video of Latoya--she is such a good actress. Strange how she says MJ ‘was to go directly to the hospital but he didn’t make it’. I know she’s talking about Lloyds of London Insurance needing to have a doctor verify his health, but still why a hospital and not a doctor's office… And as for the kids never crying a tear again after seeing MJ dead in the hospital, NEVER could I believe that unless that was truly MJ alive they saw. And if it was a dead DWD patient that was a stranger to them, I can't hardly imagine them kissing it, touching it and, crying and saying thanks and other things.<br /><br />Yes Bec, Joe's words before I went to see it, totally influenced me picking MJ apart while watching it. Now I can laugh about it. So he was misleading to get the hoaxers theorizing, and it wasn't the truth, although there may have been brief appearances of a double in a few spots like the stunt with the bullets, and there was the pic showing 2 MJ's dressed the same.<br />
<br />... they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain.
<br /><br />Often things that appear contradictory are actually just misinterpretations of what is said. :icon_bounce:<br /><br />In this case, I was joking about MJ leaving from LA on June 25, 2009, and driving directly to Bahrain in a car--that, of course, was a joke. But just because MJ did not go direct from LA to Bahrain on 6-25-09 (via car--or even airplane or boat), does not mean that he has never once been in Bahrain since the day he "died". Elvis, for example, has traveled around quite a bit during his "dead" life.<br />
I have read all of the posts up to this point, and unfortunately I don't have enough time make a reply to every post.<br /><br />So in the interest of finishing in the next couple of days: I would request bec, in the next day or so, to compile a list of up to about a dozen reasons against the DWD and/or corpse theory—and also up to about a dozen reasons for the live MJ and/or dummy theory (or whatever other theory you want to include). You may use new reasons, and/or review previous reasons posted by yourself and/or others. Please number each point, so that I can reply to each point directly by number.<br /><br /> :argue:<br /><br />After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish; but I probably will not be posting here much if at all after that, at least not before BAM.<br /><br /> :affraid:
<br />I have read all of the posts up to this point, and unfortunately I don't have enough time make a reply to every post.<br /><br />So in the interest of finishing in the next couple of days: I would request bec, in the next day or so, to compile a list of up to about a dozen reasons against the DWD and/or corpse theory—and also up to about a dozen reasons for the live MJ and/or dummy theory (or whatever other theory you want to include). You may use new reasons, and/or review previous reasons posted by yourself and/or others. Please number each point, so that I can reply to each point directly by number.<br /><br /> :argue:<br /><br />After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish; but I probably will not be posting here much if at all after that,[size=14pt] at least not before BAM.[/size]<br /><br /> :affraid:<br />
<br /><br />And after BAM you will explain some things, so we understand it all better?<br /><br />
on 1354031524:
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on 1353712405:
<br />... So, let me get my flag :smiley-vault-misc-150: and say to you that I cannot apologize enough for that and I hope you can forgive me for that.
<br />We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ. And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also? In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it. Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.<br />
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on 1304316315:
<br />In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance. In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD). In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used.<br />
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on 1302563472:
<br />The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it. <br /><br />On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital). If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.<br />
<br /><br />TS is very clear here about what kind of evidence is required to support Live MJ theory (and debunk corpse theory), ALL the paramedics must be in on it, and we need two strong points to prove it.<br /><br />Let me see if I can stay organized this time around.<br /><br />We could use process of elimination technique.<br /><br />We have 4 paramedics in the room. We know this because Blount testified that 3 paramedics arrived at the scene on the firetruck, and 2 arrived in the ambulance. One man remained on the street with the firetruck; he is witnessed on the tourist video setting road cones. This leaves 4 paramedics to go into the house. We also witness 4 paramedics entering UCLA in stretcher gif. Blount testifies also to being seated in the jump seat en route to UCLA "at the head". He is not witnessed in the ambulance photo, but we know there to be additional seating on the passenger side of the cabin, rearward of the side window, which would be outside of the photo frame when shit through the perspective of that window, so we know that 3 paramedics were in the back of the ambulance en route to UCLA. That leaves one driver, so all the info makes sense thus far.<br /><br />We know the driver is in on it. He backed out of the driveway allowing the famous photo to be snapped. If he wasn't in on it, he would have followed protocol, as well as responded to the pressures at the scene, with paparazzi and gawkers milling about on the street, and a roundabout driveway at his disposal, and driven forward out of the driveway.<br /><br />Check one paramedic off the list and put this guy aside.<br /><br />The reason we can use the ambulance pic (known to be staged) as evidence of these seating positions is because the pic went public shortly after the event and IF it depicted anything inaccurately, it would be obvious to those who were there that it was staged. If anyone unauthorized realizes that the pic is fake, this risks the hoax. Why? Because it rouses serious suspicion. Why is there a need for a fake death photo if MJ is really dead? If the pic can be proven fake, it exposes Ben to some pretty serious potential liability, namely fraud. He sold the photo to a media company for some pretty serious money. If the pic turns out to be fake he could be (and probably would be) sued. But a bigger concern that comes up should the pic be found to be fake, is it opens up the question of HOW it was staged, considering MJ is clearly laying there, and he's supposed to be (by then) dead. DID MJ know ahead of time that he would suffer a medical emergency requiring ambulance transport and have this pic staged for that event? Fishy.<br /><br />If the paramedics are all in on it, that is irrelevant, as they are not going to protest what's seen in the pic as being inaccurate and blow the very hoax they are involved with.<br /><br />But if they are not in on it, the pic must (or ought to) match exactly what happens. How could that be ensured?<br /><br />The pic had to be staged ahead of time, as it is layered, doesn't match the sunlight cast at the scene. It was sold to Entertainment Tonight within hours of the event, and it required a subject to appear in it that matched the physical description of at least Senneff. If the paramedics weren't all in on it, and you were prepared with a fake pic to sell after the fact, what happens if, say, Blount mans the patient's airway? Or performs compressions? Then you have a $$ photo that's supposed to hit magazine covers the next morning that doesn't match the scene!<br /><br />One could argue that is all irrelevant, as the pic does match what occurred, so perhaps they got lucky (unlikely to leave this up to luck, but it's what DID happen so it's a non-issue for debate purposes).<br /><br />Even if luck played a hand, and not all paramedics are in on it, and the staged pic thankfully matched what ended up occurring, and depicting all the players in their proper locations (and not depicting those who it ought not), we still have a subject on that stretcher that is recognizable as the King of Pop.<br /><br />So at least the three paramedics riding in the back of the ambulance, in clear view of the patient (and all three that are back there having put their hands on the patient at some point, Blount having testified to that fact, and the other 2 being witnessed working on the patient), must be aware that the patient is MJ. If not immediately (as testified) then eventually, once the news hit the airwaves, everyone knew MJ was dead following an emergency call at his residence.<br /><br />Publicly, we have an ambulance pic clearly depicting MJ on the stretcher. <br /><br />If a hospice patient were used for this portion of the hoax, then we have already agreed that the chances of that patient looking like MJ are statistically approaching the impossibility factor. No matter says TS and others? The public may accept that stage makeup accounts for the appearance we, the general public associate with MJ. The paramedics may simply not "notice" the patient's facial features closely enough to say it wasn't him, after all they are in the midst of lifesaving actions here, not studying his face for glimmers of recognition. That's fair.<br /><br />HOWEVER...<br /><br />The ambulance pic is a dead ringer for KoP and the paramedic crew get just as much time as the rest of us to study it after the fact and refer to their memory banks and decide if what they see in that pic matches what they remember from the scene.<br /><br />Perhaps they just can't remember. It was a flurry of activity, after all, so much happening at once in an emergency situation, and again, they weren't studying his face. They were working on his BODY.<br /><br />You know the whole problem with the patient in the ambulance pic not matching reality and only the paramedics knowing this for certain could be explained away by saying professional paramedics simply aren't going to get involved in some media scandal of fake celebrity photos sold to tabloid rags. Fine. For argument sake let's go along with this and forget his face in the ambulance pic.<br /><br />Both Senneff and Blount testified that the patient looked like a hospice patient, very thin, emaciated, etc. Appeared to be "down" for sometime before they arrived. Apparently the appearance of the patient's body made quite the impression on these men, to remember so vividly the man's condition.<br /><br />This photo was provided to the court as autopsy pic:<br /><br /><br />Does that look like an emaciated hospice patient to anyone? Not to mention, it's clearly MJ.<br /><br />How do we explain two pieces of court submitted evidence (witness testimony and autopsy pic) that completely contradict each other?<br /><br />How do we explain Senneff and Blount sitting there on the stand and testifying to something that directly contradicts submitted evidence? <br /><br />We also have clearly MJ depicted still at the hospital (in case someone wants to argue that we have already established that the coroner is in on it, so what ended up in the autopsy room need not be what was worked on at UCLA).<br /><br /><br /><br />So we have 3 images of what's clearly MJ on the stretcher/gurney in all 3 locations in question on 6/25/09 (ambulance, UCLA, coroner) and if not all the players are in on it, why is not one single person piping up to say, "hey, that's not the patient I worked on"? What are the chances?<br /><br />Driver is in on it, established effectively and unprotested.<br /><br />The paramedic team needed to be prearranged, as the 911 call did not come in through the usual channels and so therefore someone at LAFD needed to be in on it to enter that info into the computer (yet not enter it into official call logs for that day). Someone had to send these guys out on call.<br /><br />We have a good argument for Senneff and Blount being in on it, as their testimony does not match the evidence photos, and never once has they/did they protest this fact.<br /><br />The only thing I have on the 4th guy is all of the above. If the patient he put his hands on didn't match the evidence photos you'd think that would be a problem for the success of the hoax. That's merely a connection of reason, however, so if anyone wants to jump in and help out here, now's the time, lol.<br />
<br />... they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain.
<br /><br />Often things that appear contradictory are actually just misinterpretations of what is said. :icon_bounce:<br /><br />In this case, I was joking about MJ leaving from LA on June 25, 2009, and driving directly to Bahrain in a car--that, of course, was a joke. But just because MJ did not go direct from LA to Bahrain on 6-25-09 (via car--or even airplane or boat), does not mean that he has never once been in Bahrain since the day he "died". [size=12pt]Elvis, for example, has traveled around quite a bit during his "dead" life.[/size]<br />
<br /><br />Makes me wonder... How do you know that with such certainty? <br /><br />Good to have you back TS! Although, I have to to agree with a lot of you wonderful investigators in here.. I smell BS from the DWD silver plate leftovers :LolLolLolLol:<br /><br />...But who knows? :smiley-vault-misc-150:
Wait, I have homework? Why just me?<br /><br />I didn't see that before I posted that novel. Hmm, ok, I shall do my best.<br /><br />Anyone wanna help? :smiley-vault-misc-150:
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