It's not easy for me to explain it in english...i try..<br />We can see much celebs who has taken surgery to look "better".....much of them are looking scary after taht and they all are surely going to the best surgery physicians in Hollywood.<br />When i look at Michael and think how much surgeries he must have to change from the beginning and he still look so natural....as he was born in that way...<br />This makes me think that we see a person who has only changed his nose and maybe the chin and the teeth.<br />I have made a pic from the History concert where he was absolut in front of the camera and i saw the teeth....not the same as O2 guy ! Absolutly not the same, but i have no idea how to put this pic in the forum....<br />Sorry....can you understand what i will say ?<br />I look for the truth, not for a special Michael...what will he say to us with this hoax ? That is importend ! The truth....what is going on in the world, in the business ?<br />I wish much love in this world :bearhug:<br /><br />
Michael Jackson IS a brand. He sold his name all life long. For music, for shows, for labelled products... He sold it, made it trend, made money with it, protected it, so "Michael Jackson" is a marketing product. Now you cannot say the man himself doesn't exist. This is exactly what destroyed his life. Being prisoner of this marketing image he had to keep up with.<br /><br />But you also say that his private life was a fake, saying it was Prince standing at the trial. <br />So Michael Jackson talking about police brutality, and all he went through, is nothing to you but an illusion ? AGAIN, if it was faked, staged, what was the point of destroying it this way ? <br /><br />I'm sorry but thanks to people building theories like you do, Michael Jackson is obviously an alien from Mars<br /><br />I won't apologize for standing against this. That's MY opinion.
Nothing wrong with that but consider this:<br /><br />Why did MJ go on national TV and say he shared his bed with children? You mean to tell me he thought that was a good idea? Might clear his name somehow? Resurrect his ailing image? His PR people and manager(s) were totally ok with that? No problem, go ahead n run with it, it's a great idea to hold some kid's hand and talk about how loving it is to share your bed, in front of Bashir for a national TV interview. Carry on with your bad self MJ. Then later--oops! Guess that wasn't such a good plan, how unfortunate. But who would have guessed??Right.<br /><br />That's sort of like saying MJ was drunk at the O2 announcement. Same oops! moment that no one thought to prevent. I don't buy it.There's lots more to MJ then meets the eye. I think we can all agree on that.
let's just not forget about one MAIN thing : being HUMAN. <br />It includes "act upon FEELINGS"<br />This cannot be part of any theory or plan, but it is part of LIFE.<br /><br />Anytime Mj did something wrong because his feelings at that moment told him to, there comes a great theory to explain it was "part of the plan" <br /><br />Damn, no mistakes for MJ. He's such a great master...<br /><br />I just think he's a man with feelings and this doesn't always leads you to were you wanted to go.
Bec, maybe you knew this already , but i wanted to add this interview with Aprodite Jones where she explains how Michael was falling into bashir's trap. <br /> />
I think this is an interesting theory. I think there are alot of things we dont know about. There is more to the whole different looks thing I think as well.<br />I also believe that not all but most of the time the MJ with the mask over his face is someone else. Who knows all we can do is be patient. But as for the whole MJ<br />is just an entity I dont believe that. I believe that the persona he created with the King Of Pop he wanted to be mysterious and always keep people guessing and wondering<br />about him. Hopefully we will know the truths to ALL of our questions about him and this hoax and family etc
So, is MJ a human who shows his feelings at the drop of a hat at the most ill advised moments but at the same time is a fiercely protected 'brand', or 'character'? The two don't go together in my eyes. Oftentimes, it seems to me, being 'part of the plan' is a more logical and common sense explanation for some of the stranger events in MJ's life. JMO, which of course may be way off, but in the absence of a personal knowledge of the man, logic and common sense is all I have to go on.
I have read all of your comments and want to react myself.<br />But, since I didn't know where to start I numbered my comments to make it somewhat easier to read perhaps haha.<br /><br /><br />1) I like the concept you discribed Gwyned. Creating "something" with a huge image to change the world in some way.<br />But I cannot believe that Michael Jackson was "Michael Jackson"- an image. He is a person.<br />As someone said before, just look at the eyes and teeth. <br />You can change alot on a person, allmost anything in fact, exept the eyes. And I can't find one picture of him, without the "Original" MJ eyes.<br />Not on stage, on TV or any other public event he went to.<br /><br />2) Re: masks; Since you all may know, I am suffering a panic disorder for some years now.<br />Because I didn't want to accept this the first years I suffered this disorder I fight against it.<br />That resulted in using masks. I had a "private" mask, and a "professional" mask.<br /><br />I was a taxi driver for allmost 6 years. And the first years I did nightshifts in the weekends, driving mostly drunk people to their homes and from tuesday 'till thursday I drove criminals back and forwards to the trainstation and jail. (Yes, Dutch Criminals can go to home if they want :LolLolLolLol:) But that was under surveillance by a prisonguard. But still. <br />Because I couldn't be myself, scared as hell at some points, I had to use a "mask" to disquise this.<br /><br />My point is, KOP was a mask. But MJ isn't. He is a human being, with feelings and on time to time stupid decisions <br />And the shy person the KOP was, is also a mask to me, looking to the sony "deal" for example. the prase "no more mister nice guy" come to mind...<br /><br />3) as for bodydoubles. sure they would have been used, but only to escape the massive crowds.<br />In my opinion we have never seen a double on stage, or on TV, the O2 announcement, The Killer Thriller speech (Sony) or even TII.<br />Even when Joe said there was a double in TII, I didn't buy it. For me that was just to bring the doubt-factor into this hoax. We have to doubt and re-think alot here <br /><br />4) When an artist becomes famous he is in fact a brand, his name is used to sell albums, concert tickets and merchandise. So MJ is also a brand, who will make money everyday.<br /><br />5) Allthough I respect this theory, I can see this theory as painful for Michael if he is reading this.<br />Reading he isn't real, wouldn't be the nicest feeling i think. But, I think everyone has the right to expres themselves so is gwyned. There is No need to be offended, when you don't like somenone elses thought's, then don't read it <br /><br />6) finally, someone wrote something about MJ being broke. Sorry I don't buy that.<br />The Sony catalogue was estimated to earn 800 milion dollars a year. That man must have had a HUGE whole in his hand to throw all that money away...<br />That's over 2 milion a day.. <br /><br /><br /><br />I'm sorry my post isn't that easy to read I hope the numbers helped a bit :smiley-vault-misc-150:<br /><br />
I forgot to add that I still believe that there are 2 Michaels. <br />Not necessarily a twin brother but maybe (most likely) kin. <br />The rest of the Michaels that some of us sometimes wonder about, those are doubles I think. <br />And I don´t agree Jos. I think that we have seen "the other" Michael on stage and during public appearances, maybe also doubles sometimes. <br />So 2 Michaels (person) and 1 King of Pop (persona)...is it getting complicated yet? :icon_lol:
<br />let's just not forget about one MAIN thing : being HUMAN. <br />It includes "act upon FEELINGS"<br />This cannot be part of any theory or plan, but it is part of LIFE.<br /><br />Anytime Mj did something wrong because his feelings at that moment told him to, there comes a great theory to explain it was "part of the plan" <br /><br />Damn, no mistakes for MJ. He's such a great master...<br /><br />I just think he's a man with feelings and this doesn't always leads you to were you wanted to go.<br />
<br /><br />Exactly, before I joined this forum Michael Jackson was a genius to me yes a genius in music and dance however I always thought that he was a little disaster in his private life and I always thought he was only a human with his strengths and weaknesses, after being reading here for 2 years I have come to regard him as a superman and IDK if that is good or not because if he fails with this hoax the myth will drop that's why I chose to keep on thinking he is just a lovely human being, an angel, an humanitarian, the most wonderful person in the world and I don't wanna consider him a hero just the loving person he's always been, that should be enough for me.
5) Allthough I respect this theory, [size=14pt]I can see this theory as painful for Michael if he is reading this.[/size]<br />Reading he isn't real, wouldn't be the nicest feeling i think. But, I think everyone has the right to expres themselves so is gwyned. There is No need to be offended, when you don't like somenone elses thought's, then don't read it
<br /><br />You are so right I was referring to what you are saying when I said that "the no MJ existence" was unacceptable, if MJ doesn't exist who needs to clear his name with this hoax?!?!?!?!? a product?? a name?? science fiction??<br />
<br />Bec, maybe you knew this already , but i wanted to add this interview with Aprodite Jones where she explains how Michael was falling into bashir's trap. <br /> />
<br /><br />Yes I did see that, but I respectfully disagree with Aphrodite. I do not believe that MJ was fooled by Bashir. I think it was the other way around. And no, not because I think MJ is a superhero, but rather because what I see throughout the interview. I see MJ as very methodical and very cunning. I think he did it on purpose. Playing the victim was an act I believe MJ played when it suited his agenda.
But there might be some moments in his life where he would have been kind of vulnerable. See, the whole point, we've never really been there to see what was actually going on in Michael's life. All that we discuss on this forum is based on logic and the others are just assumptions based on what we've read from the internet. <br /><br />So, as curls said, it is quite contradictory that on one hand Michael is capable of doing this hoax and on other he is an emotional mess. That sure doesn't make sense. But we still don't know the truth right.<br /><br />So all we can do is keep doing what we've been, based on what we've seen and read and concluding from it. And being as realistic as possible, there's only one MJ who has created the illusion of different MJs.<br />We can never say anything definite about MJ's life or this hoax. we will only know when everything ends.
If we believe SOTT is MJ, he's talking in 2002, likely while the Bashir visit was going on, and he sounds nothing like a gullible victim, but as cunning and calculating in everything he did. MJ may have told Jones, the hand-holding was Bashir's idea, but the repititious detail about sharing beds (with MJ on the floor) showed that MJ may have been playing up the victim for bigger plans. It was not only holding the boy’s hand, but what about the crazy shopping frenzy with Bashir spending millions of dollars on ornamental art, also showing him he had bought Tut’s sarcophagus and didn’t ever plan on dying or being buried. Then there’s the racing cars with numbers 21 and 33—MJ driving, saying, "I'm going to whip your head!" Perhaps he's doing that now!!<br /><br />One MJ, with an deliberate strong illusion of 2 or more.<br /><br />
MJ put the pause in for editing. He made it ideal for the media to manipulate the soundbite. "Of course [the children] slept in my bed.................... I slept on the floor." (not direct quote--I don't have the video at hand, but the pause is exactly there. It's a long pause too.) Perfect for some snakey editor to cut off the last part and make it so that everyone was left with the thought, "Of course the children slept in my bed..." 'Tonight, at 7:00 Michael Jackson admits to sharing his bed with children', etc. <br /><br />Just like we hear carefully crafted lines from the Jackson Family talking about MJ "passing" and "no longer with us" and drug use "he denied he had a problem" (maybe cuz he didn't), MJ very carefully used the word "share" your bed, which strongly suggests improper activity yet means something quite different.<br /><br />Not to mention, I cannot believe that MJ, who is reported to have his whole house under surveillance by cctv, held sleepovers with minor children after the 1993 extortion without the room on camera and being taped the whole time. I do not believe the Arviso's got the best of MJ. I do not believe he allowed himself to be set up like that by the likes of those people. If anything I believe they were used for a purpose.<br /><br />Maybe I'm a dreamer but I don't think MJ is the helpless, unfortunate victim he is sometimes portrayed as.
<br />Bec, maybe you knew this already , but i wanted to add this interview with Aprodite Jones where she explains how Michael was falling into bashir's trap. <br /> />
<br /><br />Yes I did see that, but I respectfully disagree with Aphrodite. I do not believe that MJ was fooled by Bashir. I think it was the other way around. And no, not because I think MJ is a superhero, but rather because what I see throughout the interview. I see MJ as very methodical and very cunning. I think he did it on purpose. Playing the victim was an act I believe MJ played when it suited his agenda.<br />
<br /><br /><br />Agree with you bec 100% re bashit and abt kids in bed comment. He is completely baiting the world!<br /><br />In fact I believe all the quirkery for the past 25 yrs to be deliberate and intentional in planning of todays hoax era. I don't believe in 'Poor little Michael, ppl pick on him and judge him for being different' and 'he is different because of his mental health, body dismorphia, daddy issues' ... I actually believe the whole lot to be pointed and planned. The by product of sympathy is planned too!<br /><br />The only thing I feel sorry for MJ for is the Chi Mo allegations, the rest, I believe to be good and deliberate entertainment, (even the negative stuff) perhaps for reasons that some yet don't understand.<br /><br />This AEG trial is going to regurgitate a lifetime of 'crazy'. People call MJ crazy, however he is in control at all times and def not a victim. We (well not hoaxers, but gen public) are the victim of his charade. And its all coming out in the hoax... He completely created a character. Why? Who knows?! A lesson not to judge? Be careful who you fall in love with? Perhaps a demonstration that call someone MJ dress him up like me and watch the world follow or judge this fictional character and be so passionate about it and all the while be fooled big time at the same time.. (talking abt a double scenario here)<br /><br />Not a victim! Also (not always, but over time) I have come to believe almost everytime MJ looks like a weirdo, its on purpose and with hoax agenda in mind. And I believe at least some of those times, its not even MJ its a double.<br /><br />I don't believe in two MJs as in two at birth or a twin sharing the one identity (although I believe some might be baited by MJ believe this)... The picture below more sums up my (current) belief in MJ<br /><br /><br /><br />With MJ as the puppetmaster, the world falling in love or in contrast judging and crucifying a character who they believe to be real. Then masterfully has the masses angry or sad for him, (depending on which side of the fence your'e on) when its all just a big fat charade.<br /><br />I believe MJ to sometimes be playing the role of the charade and at other times the double to be doing so. Whichever one is doing the acting at the time, I believe it's all for the same agenda. (Hopefully an agenda which will be revealed.)<br /><br />I don't believe that someone who is meek, picked on, highly emotional, duped by ppl close to him, ripped off by handlers, pushed around by execs ALSO has the capacity to acquire and pull off the best business deals, catalogues, biggest investments (both in out of the entertainment business) in the world and can have wealth of monolithic portions! Sorry someone pushed around and meek couldn't be the business man he is.<br /><br />He knows what he is doing. He knows what he is doing very well. A master at it. Deliberate freak!<br /><br />It's precicely why he is prepared to have his family in the firing line of so many ppl during this AEG trial. (have you been reading the reader comments underneath the AEG report articles?? The Jackson family are taking a beating from fans and non fans. The comments are brutal!) It's all part of the plan / illusion. Its why he allows Paris to appear to be exploited. Its why he allows Janet to look like a B in the media. It's why he allows Mrs Jackson to look like an eldery woman pushed around by her kids. Its why he allows them too look greedy and money hungry. It's because it's all part of the act and its a pointed plan.<br /><br />Everytime I doubt myself and start to get sucked in and begin to say "Poor Michael" I think of this one line:<br /><br />"The Autobiography of PT Barnum is the Bible to Michaels LIFE" Michael handed me the book and said "Study it"<br /><br />Are we forgetting that PT Barnum was a FREAK SHOW ILLUSIONIST....<br /><br />Quoting this article that I adore, even though written from deader perspective...<br /><br /><br />American popular culture was born at the freak show. It was P.T. Barnum who figured out that by displaying freaks for fun and profit, and then circulating images and stories of the freaks thoughout the country and even the world, fortunes could be made.<br /><br />And who were the freaks? They were, as freak show scholar Robert Bogdan pointed out, performances, acts, lies, and fantasies. The freaks were any one of us. Are you tall? Really tall? You could be a giant. Are you a woman with facial hair? Stop plucking and you could be the bearded lady.<br /><br /><br />By making exhibits half human, half something else, Barnum could engage his audience’s sense of wonder and awe and even, sometimes, outrage over the obviousness of his humbug. The hybridity of these bodies, a hybridity that were lessons from God before Barnum, made onlookers feel both fully human and left them wanting another look.<br /><br />No one understood the genius of P.T. Barnum, the absolute centrality of the freak show to American popular culture like Michael Jackson, who died tonight at the age of 50. - Michael Jackson, Pop Icon, Is Dead at 50 – NYTimes.com.<br /><br />When Jackson grew up, he turned his back on the religion he’d been raised in (Jehovah Witness) and handed his manager P.T. Barnum’s autobiography. Supposedly Jackson said of the book “this is my bible now.”<br /><br />Jackson spent years making himself hybrid. Was he black or white, male or female, straight or gay, adult or child? When asked to define himself, he refused and became even more famous and more beloved.<br /><br />But Jackson made one fatal, perhaps even postmodern, mistake. Unlike his god, P.T. Barnum, Jackson put himself , not others, on display. He invited us to look, to gawk, at his hybridity. While at first Jackson could play with the figure of the freak, like when he pretended to buy the bones of the Elephant Man, by mid career Jackson was no longer able to stop us from defining him. Child molester. Innocent victim. Musical genius. Nutcase.<br /><br />But what Jackson really was was a freak. And that’s why we loved him.<br /><br /><br /><br />(Obviously a perspective from a deader - but you get my point in quoting it)<br /><br />http://trueslant.com/laurieessig/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-was-a-freak-and-thats-why-we-loved-him/<br /><br />Sorry for rambling... But yeah, I'm obviously passionate abt this subject. It's why I love MJ. As a kid and teen through my 20's, I got to have KOP MJ for music / dance / entertainment purposes. Now as I get older, I get to know this MJ. A gift that keeps on giving. SO many layers, its like a neverending "Pass the parcel" which really shows his genius, considering that other artists I listened to as a kid I can't even remember, yet in my 30's the deliberate quirkery of this man still has me obsessed / interested / watching / tuned in 30 yrs later! Strategy much?<br /><br />Oh so tactical! So very very tactical...<br /><br /><br /> :smiley_abuv: to u MJ! Lovable freak!<br />
<br /><br />Maybe I'm a dreamer but I don't think MJ is the helpless, unfortunate victim he is sometimes portrayed as.<br />
<br /><br />Not a dreamer! You're just brave enough to call it how you see it. I think it takes courage to see MJ like that. It means part of what you love or believed back in the day, wasn't real. I think we have choices in what to believe. Watch the fiction or recognise it's fiction. <br /><br /><br /><br />Anyways, to others who differ, my comments are jmo, I respect and get that others see the "MJ as a character" thing differently and respect their opinion :smiley_abuv:<br />
We (well not hoaxers, but gen public) are the victim of his charade.
<br />Are you sure about that? Lol<br /><br />Loved what you wrote just now!<br /><br />Back to the Bashir interview, MJ is IMO masterfully displaying about 3 or 4 MJ's in looks, personality, mood, hair style, shirt color, etc., but I believe them all to be him. Bashir can't get over that he must have done way more surgeries to change his looks. Surely Aphradite Jones wouldn't say Bashir was behind that too. So in this sense I would agree that MJ is playing multiple 'characters' of himself. Remember MJ said his favorite superhero was Morph, because he could be all things, when people least expect it.<br />
We (well not hoaxers, but gen public) are the victim of his charade.
<br />Are you sure about that? Lol<br /><br />Loved what you wrote just now!<br /><br />
<br /><br /><br />Well I wanted to really write was:<br /><br />We (well not hoaxers (or at least not all hoaxers) but gen public) are the victim of his charade<br /><br /><br />LOL, but there seemed far too many commas he he... Jokes aside, I was being careful not to create us and them amongst hoaxers... But in reality, even some hoaxers won't see MJ's charades and will believe the fiction.<br /><br />So yeah.. thats what I mean't but against better judgement didn't say... I guess better judgement took a backseat in this post. lol<br /><br />Love to all x
amazing thoughts and definitions about Michael Jackson. I do not dare to classify their actions, it's just a man doing with his life what he can or what he wants. His life took public state, and we know that when this happens you criticize, destroy you, they love you or crucify you.<br />It is eccentric? and what is the problem? what would I do with so many millions? so would be likely.<br />There are millions of judges that even today say he is a pedophile, but there are many others that believed in the man and his message. If Michael Jackson is a character, a brand, a project or whatever it is, I do not know.<br /> Gwynned said made her a better person, and many others as well (myself included), so for me, is enough, great job Michael.
I don't believe that someone who is meek, picked on, highly emotional, duped by ppl close to him, ripped off by handlers, pushed around by execs ALSO has the capacity to acquire and pull off the best business deals, catalogues, investments etc (in and out of the entertainment business) in the world and can have wealth of monolithic portions!quote<br /><br />This is exact the reason that i dont buy the weak Michael.<br />He as a genius must have known what would happen if you tel the world you sleep with children..or spend money like crazy..or feed your baby like a nervous wreck..that even i know..and i am far from a genius.<br />You would get the reaction what a freak.<br />So it must have be done for a reason..or just that reason.<br />I dont deny Michael as a person.I do think he is real..and has feelings ofcourse..but feelings and bad day's dont make him stupid?<br /><br />And why would it hurt his feelings if he reads we question this?<br />Maybe the fame was to much(i can understand) and there is an other Michael who can take his share of the pressure.<br />The other Michael who is looking like his twin?(think about the mirror picture and the difference in it)<br />I think maybe the weird behavior and the havy make up was to hide the difference..to confuse.<br />Because the make up sometimes would make me :icon_eek: go like this.<br />I can not see that michael on one hand was verry critical how Karen Faye was doing his hair in a video..and on the other hand let her put make up on that lookes terrible.<br />Than there are even more doubles and surcical masks to ad to the confusion..<br />I dont deny Michael..i see genius.<br />Because his live was a rollercoaster and i hope he found years ago a escape to make his live better..and to keep doing what he wants to do..music and performing..and be the illusionist he is.<br />Because he made the whole world wondering..and nobody realy knows who Michael Jackson is. <br /><br />This is ofcourse my opinion..and i tried my best to expres what i am thinking..but it is not good English i know.<br />I hope you forgive me for that.<br />Matty <br /><br />
I'm happy with how this thread has finally been developed I agree with most of you, during Bashit's doc which I watched on TV I really thought that Michael was a little bit weird but in that very moment I knew that even being the way Michel wanted to portray us I would always support him and love him.<br />Definitely Michael is just one and the same however I do agree he was playing with us by using looks alike just for hoax purpose.
I am so happy with this thread. Someone suggested Michael, the person, might be insulted by my suggestion, but I have to think that 'Michael' would be thrilled that after almost 4 years of study we are still confused. Success. Thanks. We're still running in circles and can't guess the ending. Hell, we're still debating the beginning! I'm still not sure about that 02 guy!<br /><br />And I would agree that Michael cannot be at the same time a hapless victim (much from his own folly) AND a genius pulling off the greatest hoax of all time. He can't be a perfectionist and let slip that remark about letting kids in your bed. <br /><br />And I didn't really mean to say that Michael is a character and not a human with feelings. I certainly feel a presence directing this, and it has changed my life. The fact is, I truly know NOTHING about Michael's private life. I can speculate all I want, but the only information I am being provided is that which HE wants to provide. It's like basing a verdict exclusively on the evidence provided by one side, a daunting task given the genius of the smooth criminal involved! <br /><br />It's like we're all in a maze and someone comes along and promises a way out, a secret key, and we follow him to another dead end. One guess as to why he would deliberately confuse us about his personal life, other than to protect him and his family, is that we are forced to look beyond the cult of personality, beyond the mask. <br /><br />This may seem irrelevant but bear with me. Ram Das (notable in the 60s for his book Be Here Now) tells the story of meeting his guru Neem Karoli Bab. As I recall, Ram Das was in India in search of a guru and meets this guy whom everyone says is a great guru and the first thing the guru asks is to give him his car. Most people, including Ram Das at the time, assumed he was being manipulated by a greedy guru using his powers to take advantage of people. But an enlightened being might have perhaps seen that Ram Das was too attached to material things and the remedy for his affliction was to remove one of those attachments. <br /><br />My point is this. Great beings do crazy illogical things that don't immediately make sense to us mortals. It's a way of throwing the insincere off the trail. A way of forcing people to look beyond the illusion and their own self interest. <br /><br />Think of it this way. If Michael had announced at the peak of his career "I want to create an Army of Love to change the world." He would have had millions if not billions begging at the trough and 99.9% of them would only have signed up to get close to the throne, so to speak. But what good is an Army of billions if they will abandon you at the first sign of gunfire? Or, at the opportunity to follow another younger star? How many really will be/are there through all his trials and tribulations? Who is there to serve and who for mere self interest?<br /><br />But it's more than that as well. I said that I have changed as have others and that can only be intentional. Michael the human is one man who inhabits a small place on the planet. I will probably never meet Michael the human and it's for certain he could never have a personal relationship with 7 billion people. And while Michael certainly carries a great light, with 7 billion people trying to get a piece of him that light is diminished rather quickly. Better to take that light and ignite the heart of the world.....it's our turn to shine! Turn the mirror away from a fictional idol and back on ourselves. <br /><br />I hope this makes sense.
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