Discussion 1: Could he have done it alone?

SouzaSouza Posts: 9,400
edited January 1970 in Hoax Theories
AllInGoodTime suggested we'd take it one step at a time, so first discussion point: Could MJ have pulled this all off alone? And who are involved?

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

«134

Comments

  • OK cool.....

    Lets start with----

    Reasons why MJ could of done this all by himself.

    -money
    -connections
    -ummm it's hard to come up with more...next.....
  • becbec Posts: 6,387
    I vote you repost your most recent tiai post here AIGT, and then I'll move my response over from the intro thread. It was a good one, nice jump off point. It will be buried there.
  • I think souza is right, the helicopter is irrelevant til you answer who/what was is in ambo.

    Honestly, noone has "real" proof and we all here can justify our own reasoning to make it make sense. Tho, somewhat disappointed TS started us down this path again and is not available to "guide" us thru, we can all argue the merits to our points forever.

    At some point logic must takeover and fantasy and delusional(only because we want it to be true) ideas as to the events must end and tho no concrete evidence is available, logical and critical thinking must be used in order to discover the events of the hoax.

    Example of critical thinking scenarios-
    -Could MJ pull this off alone?
    -You know must consider the scope, scale and those involved.
    -Tho we love MJ and he has done a great many things and has met, rubbed and associated with the most powerful people, we WANT to believe he could do this alone without assistance.
    -Now considering what we think we know, Is this really possible? And why?
    MJ had/has many influences, and could pay/persaude/reward many people to play along.
    Logically without emotion the possibility is very slim. So you must weigh this versus....
    -Now consider why this is not possible. And why.
    -could not pay everyone
    -or have the influence to do so
    -amount of departments, people and resources needed
    -coordination , timing and "making the signs match exactly"
    -so on and so forth.
    For example purposes only, this appears to be heavily favored in the fact he most probably could not do this alone. Ruling out what your heart feels and your mind wants, it is quite clear MJ needed help.

    And the process continues, So if help was needed then(next question). You know have a reference and logical starting point in which to return to when other issues/questions arise.

    In time, the answers will answer themselves with the questions you have already debated. And a more realistic conculsion can be made.

    MY heart says I see MJ move in the copter. Tho lighting and angles says it could be just that. But in fact, that very question could be answered without all the "what if" providing critical thinking is applied from the beginning and logic is used to interpet what you find. Because if we discover the answer to the body , we discover the ambulance, we discover the pic, the phone call etc etc. Which answers if/what was in copter. But all these answers are answered if you start at the bginnning.

    Not saying the way each of you research and/or deduct your ideas is wrong, just maybe giving a different thought process that can be used. Ideas pertaining to all the various issues can give multiple results and moreso if not done in a chronilogical order. By concluding the questions in the order in which the happen will rule out many of "far fetched" ideads we have. (and I have had many)

    as requested....
  • becbec Posts: 6,387
    So in light of that, no, it's not realistically possible that he did this alone, ie without help from the authorities.

    So ok, we have FBI. Which of all the govt departments, are most likely because they override everyone else. Well, except the CIA, but they're more international, working intelligence and all, so would be unlikely have an interest or stake in anything domestic like the death hoax (which is more or less, for all practical purposes, pretty isolated to the US).

    So ok, so the FBI is involved. They would provide the means to keep it on the down low and prevent questions from being asked by any unaware but key players, example: helicopter guys.

    So with the FBI on board, who does MJ really have to fool with the charade on 6/25? The media and the public. The media will fool the public on their own so really, all he has to fool is the media.

    So if only the media need to be fooled, why bother with a real corpse? Or even a dummy for that matter.

    But we saw something on 6/25 being loaded into and unloaded out of a helicopter.

    So what was it? Doesn't matter really since we know it wasn't a dead MJ. And with the FBI on board, it could have been anything... it just had to look like a body from 100 yards away on camera.

    That being said, if only the media needed to be fooled, and it's certainly not normal or usual to transport a body in a sheet, why did they decline the use of a body bag which would seem standard? Why draw attention this way?

    Original theories were because Michael needed to breathe. I think there is a great deal of merit to our original work and this has always stuck in my mind.

    Hit me.
  • oh good gosh I have a "few" more as to "no way in ...." he did this alone. This will probably least debated question. Tho bec, lol, your already on question 23...haha
  • becbec Posts: 6,387
    So who's he working the hardest to fool the most?

    The media.

    And that excites me a great deal because that is coming full circle on our investigations. It was the initial impression once real theories started to form in summer of 2009, that he's punking the media as payback for all the lies they print and the way they manipulate our reality.

    Am I going too fast or off topic already?

    I am aren't I.

    Sorry. I'm anxious to get rolling.
  • the question who....

    FBI, CIA are the only 2 agencies with the ability to perform, decieve and construct the hoax the way it played out. FBI is more logical due to witness protection programs and their knowledge of how to "make one disappear". The FBI could recruit, "force"(lol) and leaglly have the various parties comply with little risk of discovery. To coordinate fire, police, coroner and have them provide personnel to achieve the hoax is easily within their capabilities. And could of done this in a much less complicated way with same results.

    Ya bec, we gotta start at the beginning, even if it seems like a given. One question, one rip it apart, next...hehe...because later when other not so easy stuff comes up , the debate we have here plays a role to the answers to come later.
  • becbec Posts: 6,387
    Coordination is key. Different agencies working together is key.

    So long as they are working together.

    We know LAFD is in. But what about LAPD?

    ALso, remember rumors of the LAPD and the DA fighting over the Murray being arrested thing? Very early 2010 reports were hinting that the agencies weren't getting along and couldn't agree on whether Murray could turn himself in or not. Remember this? It was before Murray's arrest in Feb 2010. I suppose they were talking about it in October 2009 even.

    Then some spokesperson from some agency came forward and said no one is fighting, paperwork, delay, blah blah, is the excuse etc etc yada.

    Whatever. Does LAPD have to be in on it? If they are clueless that would explain the delay in their response to the scene, 2 days later. They may have been milling about going wait, what?

    I don't recall any LAPD official involvement indicating their status either way.
  • also, LAPD should of made the house a crime scene much sooner. The family tampered and removed evidence or even planted some. So I could see a "special" blind crime scene crew sent for show. Afterall this was a show. Chief resigns. Why? Perhaps he falls from the spotlight and it fades away. I think yes PD envolved.
  • becbec Posts: 6,387
    You could argue that LAPD were not in on it (can we say IOI=In On It, since this comes up so often?)

    LAPD not IOI, they were so late in the know on 6/25/09 so their info came directly from the media, just like everyone else, and followed up on it only because of media pressure. They didn't show up on 6/25 because there was no real 911 call so no real dispatch of emergency personnel either, which is how they would be alerted in case of a real emergency. That didn't come so they didn't come. They only showed up for crowd control because that was the only call they got. LAPD would be so busy running crowd control it perhaps delayed any latent investigation into the "death" that should have happened.

    LAPD is IOI, they were working in conjunction with the LAFD under FBI mandate so were not authorized to be involved that day. They were following a script which timed their response 2 days later.

    I don't know. LAPD not IOI sounds more realistic just rereading what I wrote but that could be considered a risk. The sisters showed up at Carrolwood that night and cleaned the place out (or dropped stuff off). If LAPD not IOI, there would be the risk that they would be at the house when investigators showed up... so maybe that's why they came late at night, as caught on camera by the paparazzi.
  • becbec Posts: 6,387
    If LAPD were IOI, why not have a police car stationed with the fire truck outside Carrolwood for realism? This has been one of the odd things about that day, no police presence at the house. So if it's all staged and LAPD/LAFD are both IOI, imagine the show they should have put on, LAPD providing some good crowd control at the house, holding back some crazed fans even, paparazzi slipping through to get the pic...

    So why not LAPD at the scene? Maybe they're not IOI. At least not at the time on 6/25?
  • SouzaSouza Posts: 9,400
    If the LAPD was NOT in, wouldn't they have found it odd that they did not get notified about the emergency that day?

    We must also not forget that by July, all chiefs that were in office that day, will either have resigned, or have their terms ended.

    LAPD Chief William Bratton form LAFD resigned in August 2009, leaving office October 31, 2009:

    Bratton, 61, announced Wednesday that he will be leaving the department on October 31, with three years left in his second five-year term.
    <!-- m -->http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-b ... 4648.story<!-- m -->

    Fire Chief Douglas Barry resigned on May 28, 2009, leaving office August 31, 2009:
    Los Angeles Fire Department Chief Douglas Barry, who took office two years ago and vowed to reform the troubled department, will retire effective Aug. 31..
    <!-- m -->http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-c ... 8069.story<!-- m -->

    Director of FBI Robert Mueller's term ends July 5, 2011 (FBI Director's term is now max. 10 years):
    Mueller was nominated for the position of FBI Director on July 5, 2001.
    <!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mue ... ppointment<!-- m -->

    Former governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's term ended this January.

    So all key people of the government agencies will be gone by July 5 this year. Coincidence? I know that the term of two of them simply ended/ends this year, but Barry was only 2 years in office and Bratton had 3 years left when he quit.

    The LAPD had to provide a lot of agents during the memorial and they made a little bit too many mistakes after June 25. Too many to have been mistakes if you ask me.

    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

  • SouzaSouza Posts: 9,400
    Another one:

    Amir Dan Rubin, the Chief Operating Officer at UCLA left UCLA in December 2010

    <!-- m -->http://www.linkedin.com/in/amirdanrubin<!-- m -->

    That's this guy:

    [youtube:23y2zke0]

    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

  • paula-cpaula-c Posts: 7,221
    To do that Michael must have had help from some people who work for the government, FBI, paramedics, someone in the hospital and the coroner.
    According to Michael paramedics was already "dead" when they arrived so why not been complied with the protocol and called the police, Murray insisted that taking him to hospital, the hospital said they worked resusitaste trying without any results, I do not think a paramedic in a apreciasion mistake like this, I think I had to remove the "corpse" without police intervention.
  • If it was a real 911 heart attack, police are not normally sent.

    Since MJ's call it was not revealed it was MJ, the PD might not have been "aware" of who was at the house.

    Having PD there as the Ambo did their thing could raise suspcision as to their being there.

    So no PD just follows what every Joe Blow 911 call is like unless it is a crime scene and not a medical emergency.

    If Ambo's arrive to a scene where an obvious crime was commited they notify PD , but in this case it did not appear this way.
  • RKRK Posts: 3,019
    The irregulartities and general oddities start from the beginning of the 25th. We have been told that the paramedics arrived to a death at home scenario. I don't know if protocol is the same in different countries, but in Australia, in the case of a person passing away at home, the police must attend because a death has occurred. Suspicious or not. In the event of a 000 call here, police usually roll up along with the ambulance and crew and they work together to coordinate the best outcome in the crisis. So I'm having to entertain the idea that the 911 call was a fake because of no police present . Given the fact we were told a death occurred and the 'death scene' was not in lock down, we either have a very incompetent police force in LA or they were taking direction from a higher authority. This is not the keystone cops here so they must be under orders.
    I admit the chance of showing up the force's incompetence would be tempting considering the humiliation and brutality Michael had suffered at their hands, but I'm sure he's a bigger man than this and has much bigger fish to catch and then fry.
    If I take the next logical step from here then the paramedics at the house on the 25th must be IOI if the 911 call is a fake. What are the overriding thoughts that lead me to arrive at this conclusion? The lack of police presence during the emergency. Feel free to shoot down my starter theory.
  • becbec Posts: 6,387
    That is true AIGT, but I thought we had more or less established that the call was fake and the paramedics are IOI. So no real call=no real emergency dispatch.

    Quite true that LAPD need not send a patrol car to a routine emergency call even if the call/paramedics had been real/legit.

    Hmm *scratches head*.

    Off to think on this.
  • Time of death can only be called by a doctor/RN.. THis case a docotor was there and he did not call death, so it was not a crime scene til after UCLA.

    When we code someone at work, we go until told to stop even tho we know they ain't coming back. I have coded people for over an hour and they dead from get go but time of death was not until we stop.

    So CPR never "stopped" on MJ so therefore not dead. Not dead til UCLA.

    Of course assuming this all happened on 25th. Which will be debated later I'm sure.
  • becbec Posts: 6,387
    RK, but the argument is that Murray successfully got "the body" sent to hospital so therefore Carrolwood wasn't considered a death scene until many days later... which is when police finally came to investigate it.

    So that sort of lends itself to the theory that LAPD might not have been IOI, at least originally.

    No dead on site=no police presence=no crime scene.

    Later reports leaked out that paramedics "thought he was dead " at scene. Not right away so it could be argued that was reason for no LAPD at Carrolwood. Like AIGT said, no need for PD at medical emergency, and he's right about that.

    Again, no need to investigate a death scene when initial reports all indicated that this was simply a medical emergency in the home, with death occuring at UCLA.

    Ok now I'm really off to think on this (aka go to work).
  • RKRK Posts: 3,019
    MJ you are shifty. You have used every loophole to your advantage.
  • becbec Posts: 6,387
    You know, HIPAA laws restrict everyone from discussing anything in regards to a real patient and their condition that day.
  • Hard to fathom PD not being IOI...but makes sense they weren't needed too....very interesting. No seemingly real reason for them to be then.
    First question---

    Help needed- yes-check

    Who---
    FBI-yes-check
    Fire-yes-check
    UCLA-yes-check
    Coroner-yes-check
    Police-hmmmm
  • I still lean to PD IOI...

    Once everyone knew it was MJ at hospital and he 'died', With everything about MJ being well overblown, etc, would you not send someone over directly after the 'death' knowing of crowd control and/or the possibilites of foul play just because it's MJ. Seems they took their time.(I do not know if they sent PD for crowd control later on 25th for sure)

    But again, even if not involved, and evidence was gathered, the coroner already IOI so he could confirm/deny whatever it was they found.
  • paula-cpaula-c Posts: 7,221
    all bizarre characters in this story an incompetent doctor, a paramedic who recognize a person anywhere in the world is known, the police to act after the "crime scene" already been "contaminated", and is nothing but that these police have the videos up and they saw nothing but the moment when Michael gets home around 12:30 am, but as the case is not considered simply murder them! deleted!
  • Well, I am torn 50/50 on PD.

    I can see why they'd be IOI and why NIOI.

    Maybe their role is revealed later as we break this down.

    I call it a push right now.
Sign In or Register to comment.