Eliza Interview
Andrea
Posts: 3,787
I just finished reading this interview and found it quite compelling. I think Eliza is the real deal, I just don't see someone putting so much time, effort, money and emotion into trying to find the truth if it wasn't the truth. For me, it was easier to understand the whole Eliza/Jesse/Elvis/Vernon thing by having Eliza explain it in her own words, especially the DNA parts. I don't recall seeing this interview here on the forum before but I could be wrong.
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ELIZA PRESLEY speaks EXCLUSIVELY to EIN
Introduction:
Since 16 August 1977, there have been several people claiming to be closely related to Elvis, usually allegedly his offspring. The person we know as Eliza Presley spent most of her life to date believing she was Alice Elizabeth Tiffin.
Eliza Presley's story started out in a similar fashion. Initially she believed she may have been Elvis' daughter. DNA analysis told a different story, that in fact her biological father was Vernon Presley! Based on this evidence, which Eliza has commenced to have acknowledged in the US court (legal) system, Eliza is Elvis' half-sister!
It is this DNA evidence, which has now been independently analysed by a number of forensic DNA laboratories, which makes Eliza's story and claim, a lot more credible than similar claims by other people over the years.
Eliza has experienced a number of health issues in the past 6 months. These have affected her ability to progress her quest as quickly and robustly as she would have liked. But stage 2 of her legal case is now on the horizon.
In Part 1 of an intriguing 'exclusive' interview with EIN, Eliza takes us back in time to her early life, which included murder and threatening calls, and explains how she came to realise she was very closel related to the Presley family. Eliza also tells us the results of a number of DNA analyses which support her claim to be the daughter of Vernon Presley and half-sister of Elvis, and the status of her ongoing legal case to prove her claims.
And on an issue which confronts what most fans believe, Eliza details her communication with the person at the center of Dr. Donald Hinton's book, The Truth About Elvis Aron Presley: In His Own Words, Jesse Presley, aka Elvis Aaron Presley!
EIN: Eliza, many thanks for agreeing to this interview. Let's start by finding out about your early life.
ELIZA: I’m not sure if my early life was ever really that normal, although our mom tried to make it so. She did everything for us that she could.
I have a brother & sister; we were all adopted from different unwed mothers. We lived in Houston till our dad died, then moved to Pasadena; growing up in the shadows of the refineries there.
Sad to say that I thought all cities smelled that way till I moved away. My only memories of my dad were his death and funeral when I was 5 yrs old. We all found out by accident when I was only 13 yrs old. I lost my mom just 8 yrs later from a brain aneurysm. Supposedly I was a terror to my older brother & sister. Something about I'd hit them with my play broom if I got mad at them. Because I was the baby of the family, they weren't allowed to hit me back.
EIN: What were your interests growing up?
Eliza: Interests growing up always included music & art. As in choir, not band. I’ve never played an instrument in my life. What’s so telling about those choices back then is the musical talent in the Presley family and that my birth mother is an artist. In fact, she’s a very talented one. I wish for her sake she could have achieved all that she wanted to with it. I don’t think she ever has. I remember playing music all the time as a kid, even to my own detriment. Shortly after our dad died, I tried to get our dog, Queenie, to dance with me. Instead, she bit me on the face, near my upper lip. I always felt bad when my mom gave her away after that, convinced it was my fault.
I was in girl scouts for several years. That must have been when I discovered I was competitive. It took the form of trying to sell the most Girl Scout cookies in not just our troop, but in our council. I’m not even sure I should tell on myself here! Oh well, one camping trip, I'd smuggled my brand new Swiss type Girl Scout knife with me. We were staying in tents that had bed frames for our sleeping bags. Well, we had tied the flaps on our tent too tight, couldn't get them untied. I decided to use my knife, sliced my thumb open instead. Try explaining how you've cut your hand when you can't say you have the knife? I think someone volunteered that I must have cut it on the bed frame. I’m not sure if that was the same trip where a group of us went streaking through another nearby camp? (laughing) I wonder if my mom ever even knew about that!
I've never written music, Andrew does though. I have written poems and song lyrics as long as I can remember. As do all my children. Adam has a great voice and like myself, always in choir. His sister was also in choir & band. Rumor has it, Adam & his wife frequent karaoke clubs. Andrew plays on the weekends at clubs and is quite good. I even told Jes that Andrew reminded me of him in so many ways that it was kinda’ scary (laughing) in music, temperament & a wicked sense of humor. Ash was in choir and plays the guitar too. Ash & Andrew both inherited the artistic side from their grandmother as well.
You know, even though we never knew we were adopted, our mom had to have seen the vast difference in all of us. We just never understood it as kids. My sister was always crazy about animals, bringing home every stray she came across. One was a dog named Bingo that climbed trees. My mom finally got fed up one summer after she brought home 2 rabbits (remind me to ask her where on earth she found them) one day. Well, our mom always had a green thumb and had planted strawberries in large barrels. Yeah, you guessed it; the rabbits devoured everything in that yard they could; including those strawberries. Rumor had it that a couple of days later when we had fried chicken, that it wasn't? I loved fried chicken when I was a kid and refused to eat it for a very long time after that!
I’d like to address the controversy about my changing my name last year. What no one realizes, unless they know me personally, is that after divorcing, I left TX. I have to admit that I agree with George Strait “All my ex’s live in Texas” too. I did so to start my life over. However, it was actually my boyfriend that started calling me Elizabeth (my middle name) as part of that start. I eventually shortened it to Eliza in writing.
Well, I'd vowed that I'd never do the following without proof:
.......Go public with my search
.......File against my father's estate until I had undeniable proof who he was
.......Change my surname to what it would have been at birth
So, when it became 'Eliza Alice', not 'Alice Elizabeth', that's the real reason why. Although everyone that I grew up with, they all refuse to call me Elizabeth or Eliza (laughing) I'll forever be Alice to them.
If my mom were still alive, she'd understand me. I was always the child of hers that was way different than the other two. I wasn't the troublemaker though, that honor goes to my sister. My brother was always pretty low-key. He tried to make us the brothers he never had though, through games of touch football, etc. I guess I must have been a tomboy in that regard.
Trying to answer questions about my childhood isn't that easy I’ve learned. It's made me think of things I've not done so for many years. Lucky for you, Nigel I have a photographic memory still. It used to be better until a bout of viral meningitis in 1995 that almost killed me. It's funny how 105+ temp can affect your memory for awhile.
In some ways I think I can identify with the upbringing my brother had and the hard times.
Another one of the reasons I must remember our daddy's death was what happened the day after he was buried. Wait, I guess I need to back up a little here. Our dad’s mom, mam maw, never wanted our parents to adopt us. Fertility testing didn't exist back then, so no one ever knew why they couldn't have children of their own. She felt that if they couldn't have their own kids, they shouldn't be taking in anyone else’s either. I know we are all thankful they didn't listen to her.
Anyway, I don't know what the circumstances were beyond what happened that day. Mamaw & her sons came to the motel where we lived and took everything from us that wasn’t in our parent’s names together. This included an organ and the only transportation we had, a yellow Comet. That was in January of 1968.
Years later we learned our mom started getting threatening calls after his murder. This is why we left Houston abruptly and headed to Montana and to her family. We were gone for several months, never did go back to Houston after that.
Once we returned to TX, we lived in rental houses; each being about as big as a cracker box it seemed like. Even though our mom left home at age 14, for some reason, she'd never learned to drive. So we walked everywhere we went from 1968 to 1972 when she finally got her license & bought the only car she ever owned, a 1972 Plymouth Fury lll. I remember when she died, that car had only 26k original miles. I’m sure my brother & I added many of those!
I know we took a cab if she could afford one; otherwise it was a greyhound bus to visit our great-aunt in Texas City every summer. What made me think of this were the images of walking to the local A & P grocery store on Jackson St. in Pasadena pulling a red wagon behind us. That was how we carried our groceries back home.
EIN: Eliza, how would you describe your relationship with your mother?
ELIZA: You must be referring to my birth mother? I guess the term, even before last year is estranged. I have not seen her in person since 1992 and doubt I ever will again. Of course, with my going public last fall & filing against Vernon Presley’s estate – it took the word estranged to a whole new level. Unfortunately, she’s estranged from all of her children. Since I know that she suffers from PTSD as a result of her pregnancy with me & my birth; I’m not able to feel anger towards her, just sadness.
EIN: How and when did you suspect you may be related to the Presley family?
ELIZA: As I explained to Suzanne Stratford in the Fox 8 News Cleveland interview last fall, it was my ex-husband that would make comments after seeing the photo of my (birth) mom & Elvis on the front porch of Graceland from 1960; that he believed I could be related to him. We have the same dark around our eyes, the same lips & cheekbones, etc.
He knew that I’d been the only child given up for adoption out of the four of us, as well as the fact that her family had lived across the street from Graceland back then. I told him he was crazy, that did not mean anything. It was not until my youngest son was about 3 yrs old & looked like Elvis’ twin, did I really start to wonder. How could he look like Elvis, when at that age he did not look like me or his dad? In case you are wondering, no, his dad looks nothing like Elvis either.
EIN: What actions did you take on initially suspecting this relationship?
ELIZA: Back then, there wasn’t much I could really do. I started researching Elvis & his family in earnest. I always knew that it’d take something on a scientific level to prove/disprove if I was related to Elvis, or more accurately, if he was my birth father. It wasn’t until DNA testing became available could I really act on those suspicions.
EIN: It has been reported that your mother denies Vernon Presley was your father. Why would she say this if it wasn’t true?
ELIZA: I cannot speak to her state of mind, Nigel. I know that she was very unhappy when I came forward last year. I believe I know the reasons why. However, no matter what she says, Vernon is my father, she knows this. No matter how she feels, it won’t alter the course this is already on. I honestly feel it has to do with the circumstances that occurred in the fall of 1961, when she was pregnant with me. She had told me when I first met her that she was threatened after telling my ‘father’ she was pregnant. Afterwards, she fled to Texas, ending up in Houston & living with my parents. If anyone is wondering, I don’t believe she was paid off in 1961 to keep quiet either. However, I’d like to know how, as a single parent to my older sister; did she end up in Acapulco, Mexico in the summer of 1963?
EIN: Your mother also claims you have had cosmetic surgery to make yourself look more like the Presley’s. What is your comment on this claim?
ELIZA: Do you mean besides being speechless when I found out she’d been interviewed by phone with a TV station in Memphis? I remember I laughed, and then of course logic takes over. Since I never had the final DNA till last year of who my father was? I’d have to have had the surgery to “look like Vernon & Elvis” between the end of July and August 13th, when I landed in Memphis. Bottom line here, I’ve never had cosmetic surgery of any kind. Suzanne Stratford met me in person, she was able to see photos of me growing up; it was clear nothing had ever been altered. I can also think of a lot better uses for that much money than to make my face look like someone else. DNA gave me my answer – not plastic surgery. Besides, the resemblances do not end with myself, but extend to my children.
EIN: What DNA samples have you had tested?
ELIZA: To make it easy, I’ll go in chronological order:
November 2000: Donna Presley Early, Elvis’ 1st cousin, Paternal and myself.
Results [lab #1]: It was determined that we were related and that EP (Elvis Presley) “could NOT BE EXCLUDED as being my biological father”. That if it wasn’t him, it’d be someone very closely related, that I was in fact a Presley by birth.
April 2005: Samples from (unverified) linens, sold online as having been used by Elvis Presley in 1977 and myself.
Results [lab #2]: It was determined that the results were NOT CONSISTENT for paternity.
June 2005: Samples from (unverified) linens, sold online as having been used by Elvis Presley in 1977 and myself.
Results [lab #3]: It was determined that the results were NOT CONSISTENT for paternity. It was further determined that I was not related to the samples from the (unverified) linens. Those results were verified by the DNA consulting firm in Arizona.
August 2006: Tim Farrell of Michigan and myself. Tim was another (possible) illegitimate child of Elvis Presley that had gone public with his search.
Results [lab #4]: It was determined that Tim & I are not half-siblings. The probability of us being siblings was calculated to be 0.22%, at best. It was further stated that we are COMPLETELY UNRELATED.
April 2008: The ‘Jesse’ buccal cheek swab results from Suzanne Stratford of Fox 8 News Cleveland, dated 2002 and myself.
Results [lab #5]: It was determined that the results were NOT CONSISTENT for paternity. April 2008: The ‘Jesse’ buccal cheek swab results from Suzanne Stratford of Fox 8 News Cleveland, dated 2002 and myself.
Results [lab #5]: It was determined that ‘Jesse’ & I are half-siblings. The probability of us being siblings was calculated to be 1.63 x 10 5 in favor of kinship, sharing one parent. Those results were verified by the DNA consulting firm in Arizona.
April 2008: Donna Presley Early, Elvis’ 1st cousin, Paternal and myself.
Results [lab #5]: It verified the findings from November of 2000 & that it was determined to be 31.95 times in favor of kinship.
April 2008: Jesse with Donna Early Presley, Elvis’ 1st cousin, Paternal.
Results [lab #5]: It was determined to be 45.7 times in favor of kinship. Those results verified by the DNA consulting firm in Arizona.
April 2008: ‘Jesse’ with Brenda Smith Ivy, Elvis’ 1st cousin, Maternal.
Results [lab #5]: It was determined to be 41.8 times in favor of kinship. Those results verified by the DNA consulting firm in Arizona.
April 2008: The ‘Jesse’ buccal cheek swab results from Suzanne Stratford of Fox 8 News Cleveland, dated 2002 and Tim Farrell.
Results [lab #5]: It was determined that the results were NOT CONSISTENT for paternity. No other comparisons were done since the only relationship ever claimed was as a (possible) child of Elvis Presley.
August 2008: Debbie K. L., Eliza’s 1 st cousin, Maternal.
Results: [lab#5]: It was determined that Eliza’s 1 st cousin, Maternal, showed approximately the same ratio for kinship as Eliza to Elvis’ 1 st cousin, Donna Presley Early, Paternal. This test being performed since Debbie K.L. is a known 1 st cousin on the maternal side. Debbie is the niece of Florence J. Sharp.
August 2008: ‘Pink envelope with pictures of Elvis Presley on it sent to Eliza Presley July 2008 by Jesse G. Presley’* against the Fox 8 News Cleveland, ‘Jesse’ results from 2002.
Results [lab #5]: The two samples share a similar DNA fingerprint and CANNOT BE EXCLUDED as coming from the same source. Final conclusion was that the ‘Jesse’ sample from 2002 & 2008 were from the same individual.
EIN: What can you tell us about how you obtained the Presley family samples?
ELIZA: In July of 1999, I had received a package from Donna Presley Early that contained the books I’d purchased from her for Andrew & Ash. She’d enclosed autographed photos for each of them as well. The kids were about 6 & 10 at the time, huge Elvis fans. No, believe it or not, it wasn’t because of me either. None of the kids knew anything of my suspicions at that time. Their grandmother, my ex mother-in-law, had been married to a chef back in the 1970’s. He just happened to be the one that would cook for Elvis when he came to Houston.
One of those small world scenarios & needless to say, she’d been an Elvis fan ever since. Ash was very aware at that time of what it meant to have a cousin. So, since both had spoken to Donna a few times, she asked her if she was really Elvis’ cousin, could she send her something that had belonged to Elvis. Well, as a result, she’d added an envelope that contained 8-12 hair strands to this package. This may have been because there were ongoing auctions back then with hair supposedly belonging to Elvis for sale. She wrote their names on the front of this envelope & inscribed the book “Precious Memories” for Andrew & the small book of family photographs for Ash. This package was followed up by an email from Donna confirming she’d sent it out. I know this much – it made their summer!
This envelope was never even sent to a lab until October of 2000 for possible DNA testing. The only reason I did so then was because of a cancer scare I had. Many similar cancers run through my birth mother’s family. In fact, it later claimed the life of my aunt in 2004. My sister was recently diagnosed with cancer. My brother has been fighting a rare form of brain cancer for almost 10 years now. I took the cancer scare very seriously; realizing that if something happened to me – I’d still never know the truth of my adoption. The envelope from Donna was unsealed by the lab & the lick-sealed flap was tested, not the actual hair strands. They’ve never been tested & have been in a safe-deposit box ever since.
Then, in March of 2001, we traveled to Memphis (I, my ex-husband, Andrew & Ash.) I hate to say, but Adam & other his sister were not Elvis fans at that time and had no desire to go with us. It was my first trip to Graceland. I’d been in contact with a friend of Elvis’ aunt, Lois Smith Black. She agreed to meet with us. We stopped by there on our last night in Memphis. She and her daughter, Brenda was home. I told both of them my story and showed them the results of the DNA testing with Donna from 2000. I asked if they’d agree to do the same DNA testing.
I explained that if I were the biological daughter of Elvis that I’d have to match the Smith or Maternal side of his family tree – as I had the Presley or Paternal side. Unfortunately Brenda ended up leaving when a friend stopped by to pick her up for karaoke that night. After she left, Lois pointed to the cigarette butts & asked if they could get DNA from them? I said yes, of course just as they did at crime scenes. She said that since it was her home, that if she threw them away, it was “her house, her trash” and told me to take them to be tested if I wanted to.
She then asked if I still wanted her DNA too, I said yes. That way, if it were questioned, it would show the mother/child relationship between them – and that I had her permission to do so. Lois was most gracious towards all of us. Ash still has the photos of her with Lois. I think Lois was 75 at the time and still sharp as a tack! She told us many stories of Elvis’ family going all the way back to Tupelo. Lois had been married to Gladys’ brother, Johnnie that died the same year my father did, in 1968. Lois’ DNA has never been tested & has been in a safe-deposit box ever since as well.
EIN: The issue of DNA testing is a very complex one as many people share the same loci**. How many loci were tested regarding your samples and what were the results?
ELIZA:
Donna and I, we share 5 of 9
Jesse and I, we share 9 of 13
Jesse and Donna, they share 5 of 9
Jesse and Brenda, they share 6 of 13
EIN: We understand the samples have also been tested by a second independent DNA lab. What can you tell us about this?
ELIZA: I’ve referred to how many labs were involved, as labs 1-5. In addition, The DNA collection kit (sent from Fox 8 News Cleveland) from ‘Jesse’ was extracted & profiled by yet another lab, different than the 5 that I have used. So, a total of 6 independent labs have been involved. I’ve noted where results were then confirmed by the DNA consulting firm in Arizona.
EIN: Who has paid for the DNA testing to date?
ELIZA: I have, up until 2005, when the owner of the linens paid for that testing. Tim Farrell paid for the testing between us in 2006. Through contributions from family & friends, I was able to pay for the testing in 2008. I could not have done so alone. It’s just another reason why the accusations I’ve wasted money on plastic surgery is even more absurd.
EIN: How did you come into contact with “Jesse” Presley?
ELIZA: I was placed in contact with him after I called & spoke with ‘Bern’ from Dr. Hinton’s book, about a year ago now. I explained to him who I was and what proof I had of my claim. I was instructed to send the DNA reports to him, but I refused to. I said that I’d give copies to Jesse directly, but no one else. He then argued with me that “how did I know that Elvis wanted anything to do with something that his father did all those years ago?” I said something to the effect that it wasn’t his place to make that decision for him, it was Elvis’ choice. I told him that if Elvis wanted nothing to do with me and told me so directly, then so be it. I would accept that.
However, I was not going to allow someone else (no matter who they were) to arbitrarily make that decision for him. I explained that I had nothing more to do with my birth/adoption than my brother did. It took me maybe 6 weeks to make direct contact with Jesse. He called me late one night in June. I’ll never forget his first words to me “I don’t know what to say” and the fact that he sounded so sad. It kind of broke my heart to be honest …
EIN: You are aware that many believe “Jesse” to be a fraud, part of a clever con game to dupe money and other things out of fans. What is your response to this view?
ELIZA: DNA does not lie – it has not the capacity to – unlike people … Wait, let me add this. Jesse knew information about the family member that I refer to in the fall of 1961, when my birth mother was pregnant with me. Since Elvis knew that aunt even before he met my birth mother – no one but him could have known her identity, absolutely no one. At this time, Jesse & ‘Bern’ only knew me by ‘Eliza Presley’ and could not even have figured out how to research my birth family or their background to discover that relative. I was shocked & realized that even without the benefit of the DNA – that this was indeed Elvis A. Presley that I was dealing with & related to.
It was a very surreal moment for me. I need to add this. Jes has never asked me for anything, nothing in this last year I’ve been in touch with him. Nor has he or anyone asked me to have Elvis’ fans send him anything. I have been the one that asked Jes to send note cards to a few select people, including yourself Nigel, that I knew would appreciate & cherish them. He asked for nothing in return. It angers me that many lies and rumors were started years ago in this vein that have no truth to them. It’s very unfortunate for his true fans that these lies have been believed as if they were the truth.
EIN: Critics of your claim suggest that unless “Jesse” comes forward and is tested, the current “Jesse” DNA samples can only be regarded as offering a blind test with unknown samples. What is your response to this?
ELIZA: It’s simple. Because I had the DNA from Elvis’ Paternal & Maternal sides, I always knew that if and/or when I came across his true DNA, it had to match those relatives – of which Jesse did. I just never expected it to be attached to a live person, vs. a sample (I.e.: an object of some sort) from 1977 or before.
EIN: Your first legal motion was withdrawn. Why was that?
ELIZA: It was simply a procedural move. Probate court does not have the ability to rule on my case re: heir ship. Had I been included as an heir back in 1979, then yes, it would be the proper venue.
EIN: What are the next steps in your legal case?
ELIZA: The “issues are alive and well” and we’ll be re-filing in the coming months in Chancery court in Memphis. I already have the truth of who my birth father was. I want to be named legally as my father’s daughter – something that I have every right to do.
EIN: Is there a timeframe around the next steps?
ELIZA: We have a few things to wrap up first, including the health & pain issues I’ve been dealing with. Of course, any time that you deal with the legal system, you cannot predict a time frame, can you?
EIN: Your legal costs must be considerable and will continue to grow as your case progresses through the legal system. How will you fund the next steps in your legal battle?
ELIZA: Just like with the DNA testing, until now it’s been through the unwavering support of family and close friends. Back in January, I asked my brother to please autograph one of his books so that I could auction it off to raise the funds I needed to continue. He graciously did so, along with the 4 notes writing “to my sister Eliza Presley”. I sent it to be authenticated through a company, however, they would not. It was interesting that the only reason they cited was that the book “was not commercially available in 1977.”
I asked and was not told that the signature looked suspect, but that, how could it be if he died in 1977? Since then, we were contacted by a donor that wishes to remain anonymous. They offered a number of books from 2001 as a result of their own research; had come to believe that Elvis was very much alive. I have the books packed away. I wasn’t going to offer those or solicit donations or anything of the sort to help defray my costs until I needed to. I may be forced to now in order to travel back to Memphis and everything else it’ll take to go to Chancery court. I was amazed to later discover that used copies of my brother’s books selling for upwards of 300. after I went to court last year!
EIN: While the Vernon Presley Estate was settled decades ago, is there any legal opportunity for you, should your claim be proven and accepted by a court of law, to be recognized that as the half-sister of Elvis (albeit this was unknown in August 1977) you have a right at law for a share of the annual earnings generated by Elvis Presley Enterprises (EPE)?
ELIZA: How would I? I’m not a child of Elvis Presley, I have no rights. If it were from my father’s estate – then yes, I would have a right.
EIN: Is it correct that EPE has refused to participate in your claim by providing DNA samples from the Presley family?
ELIZA: Of course they have not, nor do I expect them to.
EIN: If this is correct, how and when were relevant samples sought from EPE?
ELIZA: I never asked them. All I had to do was follow the results of requests by other (possible) Elvis offspring to know it wasn’t worth trying; that they’d never agree to provide anything for testing.
EIN: Why do you believe EPE won’t co-operate?
ELIZA: I can surmise a guess; however I cannot speak to their motives.
EIN: There must be a high amount of stress associated with your search for the truth. How are you handling the criticisms and media attention?
ELIZA: To all of the wonderful people that have contacted me and offered their support, love & prayers, I could not have asked for more. For those that continue to lie re: myself (even when they know otherwise), mount vicious attacks, etc? I knew before we filed last September that it’d work out roughly in thirds. A third would not believe my claim, regardless of DNA, the next third would remain ‘on the fence’ until the proof convinced them, the other third would be those that never believed he died & knew it to be the cover-up it is.
EIN: Has there been a toll on your personal and/or family life?
ELIZA: It has not been easy – not by a long shot. I would not wish this stress on anyone. However, I started these 17 long yrs ago and finish it I shall…
EIN: Eliza, is there anything else you would like to say at this point?
ELIZA: It’s so very ironic, that had I chosen to get involved back in 2001/2002, it may very well have changed the course of it all. At that time, I already had the Presley & Smith DNA to prove that Jesse was actually Elvis A. Presley, in the flesh, so to speak. I guess everything does happen for a reason?
*EIN Note: Photo to be published in Part Two of Eliza Presley’s interview
** EIN Note: Although 99.9% of human DNA sequences are the same in every person, enough of the DNA is different to distinguish one individual from another. Locii are DNA locations which are used for DNA typing. The greater the number of locii that match, the greater the likelihood of relationship/genetic match between the tested parties.
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ELIZA PRESLEY speaks EXCLUSIVELY to EIN
Introduction:
Since 16 August 1977, there have been several people claiming to be closely related to Elvis, usually allegedly his offspring. The person we know as Eliza Presley spent most of her life to date believing she was Alice Elizabeth Tiffin.
Eliza Presley's story started out in a similar fashion. Initially she believed she may have been Elvis' daughter. DNA analysis told a different story, that in fact her biological father was Vernon Presley! Based on this evidence, which Eliza has commenced to have acknowledged in the US court (legal) system, Eliza is Elvis' half-sister!
It is this DNA evidence, which has now been independently analysed by a number of forensic DNA laboratories, which makes Eliza's story and claim, a lot more credible than similar claims by other people over the years.
Eliza has experienced a number of health issues in the past 6 months. These have affected her ability to progress her quest as quickly and robustly as she would have liked. But stage 2 of her legal case is now on the horizon.
In Part 1 of an intriguing 'exclusive' interview with EIN, Eliza takes us back in time to her early life, which included murder and threatening calls, and explains how she came to realise she was very closel related to the Presley family. Eliza also tells us the results of a number of DNA analyses which support her claim to be the daughter of Vernon Presley and half-sister of Elvis, and the status of her ongoing legal case to prove her claims.
And on an issue which confronts what most fans believe, Eliza details her communication with the person at the center of Dr. Donald Hinton's book, The Truth About Elvis Aron Presley: In His Own Words, Jesse Presley, aka Elvis Aaron Presley!
EIN: Eliza, many thanks for agreeing to this interview. Let's start by finding out about your early life.
ELIZA: I’m not sure if my early life was ever really that normal, although our mom tried to make it so. She did everything for us that she could.
I have a brother & sister; we were all adopted from different unwed mothers. We lived in Houston till our dad died, then moved to Pasadena; growing up in the shadows of the refineries there.
Sad to say that I thought all cities smelled that way till I moved away. My only memories of my dad were his death and funeral when I was 5 yrs old. We all found out by accident when I was only 13 yrs old. I lost my mom just 8 yrs later from a brain aneurysm. Supposedly I was a terror to my older brother & sister. Something about I'd hit them with my play broom if I got mad at them. Because I was the baby of the family, they weren't allowed to hit me back.
EIN: What were your interests growing up?
Eliza: Interests growing up always included music & art. As in choir, not band. I’ve never played an instrument in my life. What’s so telling about those choices back then is the musical talent in the Presley family and that my birth mother is an artist. In fact, she’s a very talented one. I wish for her sake she could have achieved all that she wanted to with it. I don’t think she ever has. I remember playing music all the time as a kid, even to my own detriment. Shortly after our dad died, I tried to get our dog, Queenie, to dance with me. Instead, she bit me on the face, near my upper lip. I always felt bad when my mom gave her away after that, convinced it was my fault.
I was in girl scouts for several years. That must have been when I discovered I was competitive. It took the form of trying to sell the most Girl Scout cookies in not just our troop, but in our council. I’m not even sure I should tell on myself here! Oh well, one camping trip, I'd smuggled my brand new Swiss type Girl Scout knife with me. We were staying in tents that had bed frames for our sleeping bags. Well, we had tied the flaps on our tent too tight, couldn't get them untied. I decided to use my knife, sliced my thumb open instead. Try explaining how you've cut your hand when you can't say you have the knife? I think someone volunteered that I must have cut it on the bed frame. I’m not sure if that was the same trip where a group of us went streaking through another nearby camp? (laughing) I wonder if my mom ever even knew about that!
I've never written music, Andrew does though. I have written poems and song lyrics as long as I can remember. As do all my children. Adam has a great voice and like myself, always in choir. His sister was also in choir & band. Rumor has it, Adam & his wife frequent karaoke clubs. Andrew plays on the weekends at clubs and is quite good. I even told Jes that Andrew reminded me of him in so many ways that it was kinda’ scary (laughing) in music, temperament & a wicked sense of humor. Ash was in choir and plays the guitar too. Ash & Andrew both inherited the artistic side from their grandmother as well.
You know, even though we never knew we were adopted, our mom had to have seen the vast difference in all of us. We just never understood it as kids. My sister was always crazy about animals, bringing home every stray she came across. One was a dog named Bingo that climbed trees. My mom finally got fed up one summer after she brought home 2 rabbits (remind me to ask her where on earth she found them) one day. Well, our mom always had a green thumb and had planted strawberries in large barrels. Yeah, you guessed it; the rabbits devoured everything in that yard they could; including those strawberries. Rumor had it that a couple of days later when we had fried chicken, that it wasn't? I loved fried chicken when I was a kid and refused to eat it for a very long time after that!
I’d like to address the controversy about my changing my name last year. What no one realizes, unless they know me personally, is that after divorcing, I left TX. I have to admit that I agree with George Strait “All my ex’s live in Texas” too. I did so to start my life over. However, it was actually my boyfriend that started calling me Elizabeth (my middle name) as part of that start. I eventually shortened it to Eliza in writing.
Well, I'd vowed that I'd never do the following without proof:
.......Go public with my search
.......File against my father's estate until I had undeniable proof who he was
.......Change my surname to what it would have been at birth
So, when it became 'Eliza Alice', not 'Alice Elizabeth', that's the real reason why. Although everyone that I grew up with, they all refuse to call me Elizabeth or Eliza (laughing) I'll forever be Alice to them.
If my mom were still alive, she'd understand me. I was always the child of hers that was way different than the other two. I wasn't the troublemaker though, that honor goes to my sister. My brother was always pretty low-key. He tried to make us the brothers he never had though, through games of touch football, etc. I guess I must have been a tomboy in that regard.
Trying to answer questions about my childhood isn't that easy I’ve learned. It's made me think of things I've not done so for many years. Lucky for you, Nigel I have a photographic memory still. It used to be better until a bout of viral meningitis in 1995 that almost killed me. It's funny how 105+ temp can affect your memory for awhile.
In some ways I think I can identify with the upbringing my brother had and the hard times.
Another one of the reasons I must remember our daddy's death was what happened the day after he was buried. Wait, I guess I need to back up a little here. Our dad’s mom, mam maw, never wanted our parents to adopt us. Fertility testing didn't exist back then, so no one ever knew why they couldn't have children of their own. She felt that if they couldn't have their own kids, they shouldn't be taking in anyone else’s either. I know we are all thankful they didn't listen to her.
Anyway, I don't know what the circumstances were beyond what happened that day. Mamaw & her sons came to the motel where we lived and took everything from us that wasn’t in our parent’s names together. This included an organ and the only transportation we had, a yellow Comet. That was in January of 1968.
Years later we learned our mom started getting threatening calls after his murder. This is why we left Houston abruptly and headed to Montana and to her family. We were gone for several months, never did go back to Houston after that.
Once we returned to TX, we lived in rental houses; each being about as big as a cracker box it seemed like. Even though our mom left home at age 14, for some reason, she'd never learned to drive. So we walked everywhere we went from 1968 to 1972 when she finally got her license & bought the only car she ever owned, a 1972 Plymouth Fury lll. I remember when she died, that car had only 26k original miles. I’m sure my brother & I added many of those!
I know we took a cab if she could afford one; otherwise it was a greyhound bus to visit our great-aunt in Texas City every summer. What made me think of this were the images of walking to the local A & P grocery store on Jackson St. in Pasadena pulling a red wagon behind us. That was how we carried our groceries back home.
EIN: Eliza, how would you describe your relationship with your mother?
ELIZA: You must be referring to my birth mother? I guess the term, even before last year is estranged. I have not seen her in person since 1992 and doubt I ever will again. Of course, with my going public last fall & filing against Vernon Presley’s estate – it took the word estranged to a whole new level. Unfortunately, she’s estranged from all of her children. Since I know that she suffers from PTSD as a result of her pregnancy with me & my birth; I’m not able to feel anger towards her, just sadness.
EIN: How and when did you suspect you may be related to the Presley family?
ELIZA: As I explained to Suzanne Stratford in the Fox 8 News Cleveland interview last fall, it was my ex-husband that would make comments after seeing the photo of my (birth) mom & Elvis on the front porch of Graceland from 1960; that he believed I could be related to him. We have the same dark around our eyes, the same lips & cheekbones, etc.
He knew that I’d been the only child given up for adoption out of the four of us, as well as the fact that her family had lived across the street from Graceland back then. I told him he was crazy, that did not mean anything. It was not until my youngest son was about 3 yrs old & looked like Elvis’ twin, did I really start to wonder. How could he look like Elvis, when at that age he did not look like me or his dad? In case you are wondering, no, his dad looks nothing like Elvis either.
EIN: What actions did you take on initially suspecting this relationship?
ELIZA: Back then, there wasn’t much I could really do. I started researching Elvis & his family in earnest. I always knew that it’d take something on a scientific level to prove/disprove if I was related to Elvis, or more accurately, if he was my birth father. It wasn’t until DNA testing became available could I really act on those suspicions.
EIN: It has been reported that your mother denies Vernon Presley was your father. Why would she say this if it wasn’t true?
ELIZA: I cannot speak to her state of mind, Nigel. I know that she was very unhappy when I came forward last year. I believe I know the reasons why. However, no matter what she says, Vernon is my father, she knows this. No matter how she feels, it won’t alter the course this is already on. I honestly feel it has to do with the circumstances that occurred in the fall of 1961, when she was pregnant with me. She had told me when I first met her that she was threatened after telling my ‘father’ she was pregnant. Afterwards, she fled to Texas, ending up in Houston & living with my parents. If anyone is wondering, I don’t believe she was paid off in 1961 to keep quiet either. However, I’d like to know how, as a single parent to my older sister; did she end up in Acapulco, Mexico in the summer of 1963?
EIN: Your mother also claims you have had cosmetic surgery to make yourself look more like the Presley’s. What is your comment on this claim?
ELIZA: Do you mean besides being speechless when I found out she’d been interviewed by phone with a TV station in Memphis? I remember I laughed, and then of course logic takes over. Since I never had the final DNA till last year of who my father was? I’d have to have had the surgery to “look like Vernon & Elvis” between the end of July and August 13th, when I landed in Memphis. Bottom line here, I’ve never had cosmetic surgery of any kind. Suzanne Stratford met me in person, she was able to see photos of me growing up; it was clear nothing had ever been altered. I can also think of a lot better uses for that much money than to make my face look like someone else. DNA gave me my answer – not plastic surgery. Besides, the resemblances do not end with myself, but extend to my children.
EIN: What DNA samples have you had tested?
ELIZA: To make it easy, I’ll go in chronological order:
November 2000: Donna Presley Early, Elvis’ 1st cousin, Paternal and myself.
Results [lab #1]: It was determined that we were related and that EP (Elvis Presley) “could NOT BE EXCLUDED as being my biological father”. That if it wasn’t him, it’d be someone very closely related, that I was in fact a Presley by birth.
April 2005: Samples from (unverified) linens, sold online as having been used by Elvis Presley in 1977 and myself.
Results [lab #2]: It was determined that the results were NOT CONSISTENT for paternity.
June 2005: Samples from (unverified) linens, sold online as having been used by Elvis Presley in 1977 and myself.
Results [lab #3]: It was determined that the results were NOT CONSISTENT for paternity. It was further determined that I was not related to the samples from the (unverified) linens. Those results were verified by the DNA consulting firm in Arizona.
August 2006: Tim Farrell of Michigan and myself. Tim was another (possible) illegitimate child of Elvis Presley that had gone public with his search.
Results [lab #4]: It was determined that Tim & I are not half-siblings. The probability of us being siblings was calculated to be 0.22%, at best. It was further stated that we are COMPLETELY UNRELATED.
April 2008: The ‘Jesse’ buccal cheek swab results from Suzanne Stratford of Fox 8 News Cleveland, dated 2002 and myself.
Results [lab #5]: It was determined that the results were NOT CONSISTENT for paternity. April 2008: The ‘Jesse’ buccal cheek swab results from Suzanne Stratford of Fox 8 News Cleveland, dated 2002 and myself.
Results [lab #5]: It was determined that ‘Jesse’ & I are half-siblings. The probability of us being siblings was calculated to be 1.63 x 10 5 in favor of kinship, sharing one parent. Those results were verified by the DNA consulting firm in Arizona.
April 2008: Donna Presley Early, Elvis’ 1st cousin, Paternal and myself.
Results [lab #5]: It verified the findings from November of 2000 & that it was determined to be 31.95 times in favor of kinship.
April 2008: Jesse with Donna Early Presley, Elvis’ 1st cousin, Paternal.
Results [lab #5]: It was determined to be 45.7 times in favor of kinship. Those results verified by the DNA consulting firm in Arizona.
April 2008: ‘Jesse’ with Brenda Smith Ivy, Elvis’ 1st cousin, Maternal.
Results [lab #5]: It was determined to be 41.8 times in favor of kinship. Those results verified by the DNA consulting firm in Arizona.
April 2008: The ‘Jesse’ buccal cheek swab results from Suzanne Stratford of Fox 8 News Cleveland, dated 2002 and Tim Farrell.
Results [lab #5]: It was determined that the results were NOT CONSISTENT for paternity. No other comparisons were done since the only relationship ever claimed was as a (possible) child of Elvis Presley.
August 2008: Debbie K. L., Eliza’s 1 st cousin, Maternal.
Results: [lab#5]: It was determined that Eliza’s 1 st cousin, Maternal, showed approximately the same ratio for kinship as Eliza to Elvis’ 1 st cousin, Donna Presley Early, Paternal. This test being performed since Debbie K.L. is a known 1 st cousin on the maternal side. Debbie is the niece of Florence J. Sharp.
August 2008: ‘Pink envelope with pictures of Elvis Presley on it sent to Eliza Presley July 2008 by Jesse G. Presley’* against the Fox 8 News Cleveland, ‘Jesse’ results from 2002.
Results [lab #5]: The two samples share a similar DNA fingerprint and CANNOT BE EXCLUDED as coming from the same source. Final conclusion was that the ‘Jesse’ sample from 2002 & 2008 were from the same individual.
EIN: What can you tell us about how you obtained the Presley family samples?
ELIZA: In July of 1999, I had received a package from Donna Presley Early that contained the books I’d purchased from her for Andrew & Ash. She’d enclosed autographed photos for each of them as well. The kids were about 6 & 10 at the time, huge Elvis fans. No, believe it or not, it wasn’t because of me either. None of the kids knew anything of my suspicions at that time. Their grandmother, my ex mother-in-law, had been married to a chef back in the 1970’s. He just happened to be the one that would cook for Elvis when he came to Houston.
One of those small world scenarios & needless to say, she’d been an Elvis fan ever since. Ash was very aware at that time of what it meant to have a cousin. So, since both had spoken to Donna a few times, she asked her if she was really Elvis’ cousin, could she send her something that had belonged to Elvis. Well, as a result, she’d added an envelope that contained 8-12 hair strands to this package. This may have been because there were ongoing auctions back then with hair supposedly belonging to Elvis for sale. She wrote their names on the front of this envelope & inscribed the book “Precious Memories” for Andrew & the small book of family photographs for Ash. This package was followed up by an email from Donna confirming she’d sent it out. I know this much – it made their summer!
This envelope was never even sent to a lab until October of 2000 for possible DNA testing. The only reason I did so then was because of a cancer scare I had. Many similar cancers run through my birth mother’s family. In fact, it later claimed the life of my aunt in 2004. My sister was recently diagnosed with cancer. My brother has been fighting a rare form of brain cancer for almost 10 years now. I took the cancer scare very seriously; realizing that if something happened to me – I’d still never know the truth of my adoption. The envelope from Donna was unsealed by the lab & the lick-sealed flap was tested, not the actual hair strands. They’ve never been tested & have been in a safe-deposit box ever since.
Then, in March of 2001, we traveled to Memphis (I, my ex-husband, Andrew & Ash.) I hate to say, but Adam & other his sister were not Elvis fans at that time and had no desire to go with us. It was my first trip to Graceland. I’d been in contact with a friend of Elvis’ aunt, Lois Smith Black. She agreed to meet with us. We stopped by there on our last night in Memphis. She and her daughter, Brenda was home. I told both of them my story and showed them the results of the DNA testing with Donna from 2000. I asked if they’d agree to do the same DNA testing.
I explained that if I were the biological daughter of Elvis that I’d have to match the Smith or Maternal side of his family tree – as I had the Presley or Paternal side. Unfortunately Brenda ended up leaving when a friend stopped by to pick her up for karaoke that night. After she left, Lois pointed to the cigarette butts & asked if they could get DNA from them? I said yes, of course just as they did at crime scenes. She said that since it was her home, that if she threw them away, it was “her house, her trash” and told me to take them to be tested if I wanted to.
She then asked if I still wanted her DNA too, I said yes. That way, if it were questioned, it would show the mother/child relationship between them – and that I had her permission to do so. Lois was most gracious towards all of us. Ash still has the photos of her with Lois. I think Lois was 75 at the time and still sharp as a tack! She told us many stories of Elvis’ family going all the way back to Tupelo. Lois had been married to Gladys’ brother, Johnnie that died the same year my father did, in 1968. Lois’ DNA has never been tested & has been in a safe-deposit box ever since as well.
EIN: The issue of DNA testing is a very complex one as many people share the same loci**. How many loci were tested regarding your samples and what were the results?
ELIZA:
Donna and I, we share 5 of 9
Jesse and I, we share 9 of 13
Jesse and Donna, they share 5 of 9
Jesse and Brenda, they share 6 of 13
EIN: We understand the samples have also been tested by a second independent DNA lab. What can you tell us about this?
ELIZA: I’ve referred to how many labs were involved, as labs 1-5. In addition, The DNA collection kit (sent from Fox 8 News Cleveland) from ‘Jesse’ was extracted & profiled by yet another lab, different than the 5 that I have used. So, a total of 6 independent labs have been involved. I’ve noted where results were then confirmed by the DNA consulting firm in Arizona.
EIN: Who has paid for the DNA testing to date?
ELIZA: I have, up until 2005, when the owner of the linens paid for that testing. Tim Farrell paid for the testing between us in 2006. Through contributions from family & friends, I was able to pay for the testing in 2008. I could not have done so alone. It’s just another reason why the accusations I’ve wasted money on plastic surgery is even more absurd.
EIN: How did you come into contact with “Jesse” Presley?
ELIZA: I was placed in contact with him after I called & spoke with ‘Bern’ from Dr. Hinton’s book, about a year ago now. I explained to him who I was and what proof I had of my claim. I was instructed to send the DNA reports to him, but I refused to. I said that I’d give copies to Jesse directly, but no one else. He then argued with me that “how did I know that Elvis wanted anything to do with something that his father did all those years ago?” I said something to the effect that it wasn’t his place to make that decision for him, it was Elvis’ choice. I told him that if Elvis wanted nothing to do with me and told me so directly, then so be it. I would accept that.
However, I was not going to allow someone else (no matter who they were) to arbitrarily make that decision for him. I explained that I had nothing more to do with my birth/adoption than my brother did. It took me maybe 6 weeks to make direct contact with Jesse. He called me late one night in June. I’ll never forget his first words to me “I don’t know what to say” and the fact that he sounded so sad. It kind of broke my heart to be honest …
EIN: You are aware that many believe “Jesse” to be a fraud, part of a clever con game to dupe money and other things out of fans. What is your response to this view?
ELIZA: DNA does not lie – it has not the capacity to – unlike people … Wait, let me add this. Jesse knew information about the family member that I refer to in the fall of 1961, when my birth mother was pregnant with me. Since Elvis knew that aunt even before he met my birth mother – no one but him could have known her identity, absolutely no one. At this time, Jesse & ‘Bern’ only knew me by ‘Eliza Presley’ and could not even have figured out how to research my birth family or their background to discover that relative. I was shocked & realized that even without the benefit of the DNA – that this was indeed Elvis A. Presley that I was dealing with & related to.
It was a very surreal moment for me. I need to add this. Jes has never asked me for anything, nothing in this last year I’ve been in touch with him. Nor has he or anyone asked me to have Elvis’ fans send him anything. I have been the one that asked Jes to send note cards to a few select people, including yourself Nigel, that I knew would appreciate & cherish them. He asked for nothing in return. It angers me that many lies and rumors were started years ago in this vein that have no truth to them. It’s very unfortunate for his true fans that these lies have been believed as if they were the truth.
EIN: Critics of your claim suggest that unless “Jesse” comes forward and is tested, the current “Jesse” DNA samples can only be regarded as offering a blind test with unknown samples. What is your response to this?
ELIZA: It’s simple. Because I had the DNA from Elvis’ Paternal & Maternal sides, I always knew that if and/or when I came across his true DNA, it had to match those relatives – of which Jesse did. I just never expected it to be attached to a live person, vs. a sample (I.e.: an object of some sort) from 1977 or before.
EIN: Your first legal motion was withdrawn. Why was that?
ELIZA: It was simply a procedural move. Probate court does not have the ability to rule on my case re: heir ship. Had I been included as an heir back in 1979, then yes, it would be the proper venue.
EIN: What are the next steps in your legal case?
ELIZA: The “issues are alive and well” and we’ll be re-filing in the coming months in Chancery court in Memphis. I already have the truth of who my birth father was. I want to be named legally as my father’s daughter – something that I have every right to do.
EIN: Is there a timeframe around the next steps?
ELIZA: We have a few things to wrap up first, including the health & pain issues I’ve been dealing with. Of course, any time that you deal with the legal system, you cannot predict a time frame, can you?
EIN: Your legal costs must be considerable and will continue to grow as your case progresses through the legal system. How will you fund the next steps in your legal battle?
ELIZA: Just like with the DNA testing, until now it’s been through the unwavering support of family and close friends. Back in January, I asked my brother to please autograph one of his books so that I could auction it off to raise the funds I needed to continue. He graciously did so, along with the 4 notes writing “to my sister Eliza Presley”. I sent it to be authenticated through a company, however, they would not. It was interesting that the only reason they cited was that the book “was not commercially available in 1977.”
I asked and was not told that the signature looked suspect, but that, how could it be if he died in 1977? Since then, we were contacted by a donor that wishes to remain anonymous. They offered a number of books from 2001 as a result of their own research; had come to believe that Elvis was very much alive. I have the books packed away. I wasn’t going to offer those or solicit donations or anything of the sort to help defray my costs until I needed to. I may be forced to now in order to travel back to Memphis and everything else it’ll take to go to Chancery court. I was amazed to later discover that used copies of my brother’s books selling for upwards of 300. after I went to court last year!
EIN: While the Vernon Presley Estate was settled decades ago, is there any legal opportunity for you, should your claim be proven and accepted by a court of law, to be recognized that as the half-sister of Elvis (albeit this was unknown in August 1977) you have a right at law for a share of the annual earnings generated by Elvis Presley Enterprises (EPE)?
ELIZA: How would I? I’m not a child of Elvis Presley, I have no rights. If it were from my father’s estate – then yes, I would have a right.
EIN: Is it correct that EPE has refused to participate in your claim by providing DNA samples from the Presley family?
ELIZA: Of course they have not, nor do I expect them to.
EIN: If this is correct, how and when were relevant samples sought from EPE?
ELIZA: I never asked them. All I had to do was follow the results of requests by other (possible) Elvis offspring to know it wasn’t worth trying; that they’d never agree to provide anything for testing.
EIN: Why do you believe EPE won’t co-operate?
ELIZA: I can surmise a guess; however I cannot speak to their motives.
EIN: There must be a high amount of stress associated with your search for the truth. How are you handling the criticisms and media attention?
ELIZA: To all of the wonderful people that have contacted me and offered their support, love & prayers, I could not have asked for more. For those that continue to lie re: myself (even when they know otherwise), mount vicious attacks, etc? I knew before we filed last September that it’d work out roughly in thirds. A third would not believe my claim, regardless of DNA, the next third would remain ‘on the fence’ until the proof convinced them, the other third would be those that never believed he died & knew it to be the cover-up it is.
EIN: Has there been a toll on your personal and/or family life?
ELIZA: It has not been easy – not by a long shot. I would not wish this stress on anyone. However, I started these 17 long yrs ago and finish it I shall…
EIN: Eliza, is there anything else you would like to say at this point?
ELIZA: It’s so very ironic, that had I chosen to get involved back in 2001/2002, it may very well have changed the course of it all. At that time, I already had the Presley & Smith DNA to prove that Jesse was actually Elvis A. Presley, in the flesh, so to speak. I guess everything does happen for a reason?
*EIN Note: Photo to be published in Part Two of Eliza Presley’s interview
** EIN Note: Although 99.9% of human DNA sequences are the same in every person, enough of the DNA is different to distinguish one individual from another. Locii are DNA locations which are used for DNA typing. The greater the number of locii that match, the greater the likelihood of relationship/genetic match between the tested parties.