TIAI April 11

TS_commentsTS_comments Posts: 239
edited July 2011 in TIAI
fbii.jpg<br /><br />It’s now time for the third level!  :D  8-)  :)<br /><br />The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital.  And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA?  MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?<br /><br />Please do not jump to any quick conclusions on this, and be very careful to remember the following principles of investigation: #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better; #2 once you have a theory, try to debunk your own theory; #3 we are looking for a theory that has at least two different strong points, which nobody can debunk.<br /><br />Let’s also review what has been established so far.  Nobody has debunked the main point established in the first level: “… the photo was planned and staged in advance, rather than merely editing MJ’s face into a photo that was actually taken through the ambulance window on 6-25-09.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185}.  As always, if you want to try and debunk something, please inform yourself first of what has already been discussed; I will usually ignore questions or objections which are just a repeat, and have already been answered.<br /><br />In the second level, there have been a few strong points in support of FBI involvement; and nobody has debunked any of these strong points {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313461&#p313461}.<br /><br />First and foremost, as in other areas of the hoax, the numerology speaks volumes; Andrea recently had an excellent post on FBI numerology, as well as some Joe/Joseph information {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317514&#p317514}.  <br /><br />The Elvis connection is another strong point in support of MJ having FBI help, and explains a lot on how this hoax could be pulled off successfully with LAFD and other government entities involved {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=314370&#p314370; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313872&#p313872; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313381&#p313381}.<br /><br /><br />Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial!  “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year.  Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.” {http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams}.<br /><br />Last and maybe least—but still a big clue, is Marlon wearing the FBI cap on more than one occasion<br />{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1000#p320865; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6456&start=0#p103786}.<br /><br />In spite of the fact that nobody has debunked any of the above points, there have been a couple of general questions or objections to FBI involvement—including but not limited to who oversees the FBI {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1050#p321369}.  And there were several good replies <br />{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321814; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321843; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321890; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321894; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1100#p322044}.<br /><br />There were also questions about why, if the FBI is involved, would there be any numerology and other clues—wouldn’t the FBI do the fake death so well, that nobody would know a thing?  This is a very good question; but there are good answers.  First of all, we know that Elvis had government help; and we also know that he used numerology and other clues.<br /><br />But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment.  “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment}.<br /><br />If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment.  However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment.  If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.<br /><br />The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk.  Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.  <br /><br />On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse.  Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).  If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine.  And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.
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Comments

  • PureLovePureLove Posts: 5,891
    I'm more than ready to get to the third level. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> I was so excited to see your new post which starts with Marlon's picture with the FBI cap on and a huge smile on his face. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> Thank you for the post TS. Now back to reading your post. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
  • lilwendylilwendy Posts: 788
    So TS... what's the 4-1-1? hahaha For my ESL friends, 4-1-1 means information and was a number we used to call for information. I just found it funny that you posted new information on April 11, 2011 at 4:11pm (PST).

    So thanks for a new post TS and I will read it now and do my best to participate in the discussion. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
  • Awesome we leveled up...it makes me feel like I'm playing COH.
  • paula-cpaula-c Posts: 7,221
    another puzzle .. to think <!-- s:geek: -->:geek:<!-- s:geek: -->
    4pensando.gif
  • MJFAN7MJFAN7 Posts: 3,063
    4-1-1 <!-- s:lol: -->:lol:<!-- s:lol: -->

    Anyways, I'm in a hurry, so for now I've read through most of it, I wasn't able to click the links so I'll come back later.

    But, in my opinion, I believe that there was someone/something in the ambulance, but not Michael, whether it be a double or a dummy, im not sure. The ambulance picture was definitely photoshopped but as we've stated many times before, that was taken before June 25th so it doesn't really matter with this topic. If the paramedic's aren't in on it, I think they would know it's a dummy, I mean they've all probably had plenty experience with being up close with bodies like that, so wouldn't they realize that it was a dummy, especially since they would most likely have been checking the pulse and seeing if he was breathing or not? Also, if they're not in on it and it was a double, then that probably would explain why it doesn't look like Michael, because every double that we know of looks different than Michael in a distinct way. But there might be doubles that we don't even know exist because of their extreme resemblance to Michael, for example, 'Barry Shaw', so maybe it could have been one of them. I highly doubt it was the real Michael, because wasn't he already on his way to the "--airport........i mean hospital". I'm not really sure about the FBI thing yet, I didn't read enough into the end of the post, so, I'll be back later to re-read this & I really want to hear everyone else's responses.

    P.S. I find it interesting that you used a picture of Tito, Marlon & Jermaine, of course because Marlon has the FBI hat, but also there's the whole twitter thing going on with those 3. Jermaine is saying Marlon's twitter is fake, 'Marlon' is saying it's really him (on twitter), and Tito is saying it's him. Might not be done on purpose, but it's still interesting.
  • becbec Posts: 6,387
    No body was used.

    Forensic science rules it out. Altering the temp of the room would not confuse the coroner. Body core temp is only one of many factors used to determine time of death and when it is, room temperature at the scene is automatically plugged into the formula.
    <!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm<!-- m -->
    Rigor, pressure within the eye, appearance of the eye, blood pooling, and other little things like stomach contents and their condition are all used to determine time of death. Unless someone actually did die at Carrolwood on the morning of 6/25/09 (which the numerology proves is statistically unlikely), a corpse could not be used to fool anyone.

    Here's a good pdf file about it:
    <!-- m -->http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicin ... edeath.pdf<!-- m -->
    a quote from the opening of the article:
    "Repeated experience teaches the investigator to be wary of relying on any single observation
    for estimating the time of death (or "duration of the post mortem interval"), and he wisely avoids
    making dogmatic statements based on an isolated observation". (Ref. 12 at p. 151.)
    "Considering the variables which influence the rate of body heat loss, the best one can say about
    the reliability of algor mortis as a post mortem clock is that it permits a rough approximation of
    the time of death. Errors in over-estimating and under-estimating the post mortem interval based
    on body cooling are common, even in the face of considerable experience by those making the
    estimate. Body temperature as an indicator of the post mortem interval should be correlated with
    all other phenomenon and observations utilised in establishing the time of death
    ". (Ref. 12 at p.
    164.)
  • SouzaSouza Posts: 9,400
    But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment. “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment}.

    If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment. However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment. If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.
    Now I'm getting nervous... <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> I will back-up the forum not only to my harddrive from now on, but I will make a copy of the back-up to a flashdrive every night and put it under my pillow when I go to sleep and I will let my killer cat guard another copy <!-- s:lol: -->:lol:<!-- s:lol: -->

    This explains a lot about a lot of stuff I have been wondering about. I never thought staging a death could be seen as entrapment. It's providing oppurtunity, but it's not forcing anyone to commit a crime right? But I guess safety for all.

    For me this explains the numerous hack attempts on this forum and the old ones as well, it also explains the importance of TMZ's role and your posts and I now understand why we need to come to a theory that would hold up in court. It might really have to hold up in court, lol. This is also why it really should hit the media.

    This sting operation is very interesting, but it fries my brain at the moment. I will think about the dummy/double/corpse/air in the ambulance first.

    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

  • lilwendylilwendy Posts: 788
    another puzzle .. to think <!-- s:geek: -->:geek:<!-- s:geek: -->
    4pensando.gif

    I LOVE your thinking smiley!

    @MJhasSpoken - what is COH?
  • paula-cpaula-c Posts: 7,221
    bec wrote:

    No body was used.

    Forensic science rules it out. Altering the temp of the room would not confuse the coroner. Body core temp is only one of many factors used to determine time of death and when it is, room temperature at the scene is automatically plugged into the formula.
    <!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002<!-- m --> ... _death.htm
    Rigor, pressure within the eye, appearance of the eye, blood pooling, and other little things like stomach contents and their condition are all used to determine time of death. Unless someone actually did die at Carrolwood on the morning of 6/25/09 (which the numerology proves is statistically unlikely), a corpse could not be used to fool anyone.

    Here's a good pdf file about it:
    <!-- m -->http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicin<!-- m --> ... edeath.pdf
    a quote from the opening of the article:


    "Repeated experience teaches the investigator to be wary of relying on any single observation
    for estimating the time of death (or "duration of the post mortem interval"), and he wisely avoids
    making dogmatic statements based on an isolated observation". (Ref. 12 at p. 151.)
    "Considering the variables which influence the rate of body heat loss, the best one can say about
    the reliability of algor mortis as a post mortem clock is that it permits a rough approximation of
    the time of death. Errors in over-estimating and under-estimating the post mortem interval based
    on body cooling are common, even in the face of considerable experience by those making the
    estimate. Body temperature as an indicator of the post mortem interval should be correlated with
    all other phenomenon and observations utilised in establishing the time of death". (Ref. 12 at p.
    164.)

    but remember that the autopsy report is false, the person who possibly died an autopsy was made ​​law and of course that is not published, so it took so long to publish results, or maybe not if this person already had a medical history with the disease he had and there was no autopsy. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
  • SouzaSouza Posts: 9,400
    or maybe not if this person already had a medical history with the disease he had and there was no autopsy. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
    Good point paula.

    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

  • AnaMarciaAnaMarcia Posts: 860
    Now I begin to understand the intent of TS. We will need have a complete theory of all levels. This should serve to help Michael and the people who helped him to justify legally. That's us we care about all this strange death, we knew from the beginning it was all a joke, because we investigate. Now we have to show coherent theories that suggest that was a great need and not just a blow.
    If so, I guess until we have everything assembled, will be very difficult for Michael to return, so we are your soldiers of love! We have the role to help you with this, and if we want to see Michael soon have to work hard in the coming months.

    Oh, TS ... I think I'm a little late with this conclusion, but I think it's clearer now. <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->

    In relation to what came to UCLA, I get the theory of a double, which was used as prevention, if something went wrong. For me that was the same person that was seen in the garden and followed the ambulance and looks much like the spitting image of TII.
  • another puzzle .. to think <!-- s:geek: -->:geek:<!-- s:geek: -->
    4pensando.gif

    I LOVE your thinking smiley!

    @MJhasSpoken - what is COH?

    It's a MMORPG called City of Heroes...everytime you get experience points it goes towards your leveling up and you get to choose new powers. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->

    Also thinking about this whole FBI thing and what info the FBI would need from MJ, maybe it has to do with the Biggie case.
  • 2good2btrue2good2btrue Posts: 4,210
    POSTED>>>>>>>

    Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:11 pm

    Gotta go out now, but I'll be back...thanks TS. You're my hero. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
  • PureLovePureLove Posts: 5,891
    Ok, I want to start with something that confuses me about the possible participation of the EMTs. EMTs are in on the hoax theory sounds more plausible to me too. The dummy, double of MJ or healthy MJ in the ambulance would not be a problem for them as they know all about the hoax. And we have pictures of MJ (or a double) getting into the hospital sitting on the stretcher. This shows that the EMTs has to be in on the hoax. But where does this lead the EMTs explanation about the patient (old, fragile man) and the heated room? If they were in on the hoax why would they bother to make a comment like they didn't recognize the patient and he was looking like an old, fragile man? Couldn't they need to say the opposite and say that they saw Michael? Or was this because they knew about the hoax but it was just another clue for us to understand this is a hoax? What are your opinions about this?
  • RKRK Posts: 3,019
    TS is it possible you are the FBI member helping MJ in all of this. I only suggest this because of your inclusion of the word WE when talking about the FBI investigating fake death/empty caskets scams every year.
  • PureLovePureLove Posts: 5,891
    TS is it possible you are the FBI member helping MJ in all of this. I only suggest this because of your inclusion of the word WE when talking about the FBI investigating fake death/empty caskets scams every year.

    That was a quotation that TS made from the FBI article about the fake funerals.
    Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial! It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year. Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.” <!-- m -->http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/se ... eral-scams<!-- m -->.
  • RKRK Posts: 3,019
    Thanks Purelove. This hoax does a good job in keeping me humble cause it shows up my many shortfalls in reasoning. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
  • mjssoulmatemjssoulmate Posts: 820
    Seems to me that the EMTs had to be involved. I just don't see how else it could have been pulled off. Same goes for the FBI. Didn't they release 333 pages of MJ's file? Is that a hint at the numerlology connection?
    Haven't had time to reread all the links. I'll get on that soon.
  • Hi TS. Thanks for the new thread. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
    But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment. “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” <!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation;<!-- m --> see <!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment<!-- m -->.

    If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment. However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment. If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out
    I do understand what entrapment means vs. sting operation. What you have said about the hoax forums does hold true because everyone who has investigated the death (official people) were NOT entrapped into doing their jobs. The police, hospital workers, coroners office, etc. did what they do naturally according to their jobs. The people who have come out of the woodworks since the death like those writing books and others who seem to be on the shady side also were NOT entrapped because they just did what their natural greedy selves do in a situation like this. The official police department could very easily find out that MJ is not dead IF they did more background work, like checking the forums. Heck even the judge is aware of the social media forums, blogs, and TMZ. lol <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->

    I find it unbelievable to an extent that almost 2 years later NOT one of them has said anything to my knowledge. Maybe that is because this type of thing has happened before when a celeb dies, hoaxes are more of a non real theory to them. We are looney people to believe such a thing right? lol <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> They (officials) are really that blind, deaf and dumb?
    <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
    The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital. And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA? MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?
    <!-- m -->http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/micha ... psy-report<!-- m -->
    Autopsy Report pages 1-4 show who the sources were for Elissa Fleak's Investigation and how it went down. So according to the report on page 2:

    Information Sources:
    1. Detective W Porche, LAPD-West Los Angeles Division
    2. Detective S. Smith, LAPD-Robbery Homicide Division
    3. UCLA Medical Center, medical record #397-5944

    The Investigation section shows how E. Fleak was assigned to the case and by whom. Lieutenant F. Corral assigned the death investigation. E. Fleak arrived at UCLA Medical Center along with Assistant Chief E. Winters and Forensic Attendant A. Perez. Upon E. Fleak's completion of the body examination at the hospital, the body was transported by the Los Angeles Sheriffs Department-Air Bureau to the Coroners Forensic Science Center. The body was escorted by Forensic Attendant Perez.

    Assistant Chief E. Winter and E. Fleak left the hospital and went to Michael's home. E. Fleak performed a scene investigation. After that was done they left and went back to the Coroners Forensic Science Center.

    Now so far that is 3 people investigating and looking at the body. That is not including the 2 detectives or the UCLA doctor who called Time of Death. That is Dr. Richelle Cooper. Plus the other ER personnel who helped Dr. Cooper, also the Lieutenant who assigned the case to E. Fleaks. That so far is alot of people who would need to be in on the hoax for it to work, that is IF there was no body/dummy/nothing. I won't entertain the idea of MJ being the body yet.


    Official General Prelim Discussion thread
    <!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17015<!-- l -->
    Then you have the witness list (see thread link above) of who testified at the pre-lim in regards to Dr. Cooper and the paramedics that showed up that day and transported the body to the hospital. Now after the jury questionnaire has been released, (see link below) it shows the full potential witness list. All 3 of the paramedics are confirmed. These are the ones who showed up that day. Richard Senneff FF/PM, Martin Blount FF/PM and Jeffrey Mills Fire Captain. That is even more people who would have to be in on the hoax. This is getting to be way to many and doesn't fall into the category of the fewer in on it the better.
    <!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=172&t=18674<!-- l -->

    I have also already wrote about the paramedics many times and who I believe is the 1 person from LAFD who knows about the hoax (at least in the beginning). I am sure most if not all the paramedics at Fire Station #71 know NOW especially with people like Tristan visiting them and point blank asking them if they know. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->

    <!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=321015#p320976<!-- l -->
    Something that I had noticed but didn't comment before on it. It's the wording TMZ chose for the descriptor of the unrecognizable MJ in the ambulance. IT instead of HE. Is that a Freudian slip (on purpose clue?) to tell us IT (dummy for the fake pic/dead corpse?) was in the ambulance and not a he (MJ)?
    Paramedics didn't realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: "It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man."

    This is a long post of mine (see below) but I think it is the best one to show my train of thought putting all the pieces together on the who was in the ambulance, who is involved from where, etc. I was responding to mjsmyheart and her(?) theory of the #71 ambulance paramedics being FBI also.
    <!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=321015&hilit=steve+ruda#p320994<!-- l -->

    My post regarding my thoughts on WHO went to the hospital on 6/25/2009.
    <!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&p=309760&#p309760<!-- l -->

    I am re-posting a previous comment of mine. This is an article that was written and displayed on the UCLA website regarding how everyone worked together and who did what on 6/25/2009. This explains why there wouldn't really need to be anyone from UCLA in on the hoax. I am not saying that no one was involved in the hoax but IF anyone from there, it would be most likely only 1 or 2 at the most, on a need to know type basis.
    <!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=314645#p314645<!-- l -->
    The staff at UCLA just did their jobs. Jermaine is said to have confirmed the reports that were already out there. No one was allowed into the hospital if they were suspect to the UCLA staff/police who handled the security part. That is most likely why no pictures of Michael/the hospice patient have been shown inside the hospital after the ambulance arrived.

    <!-- m -->http://www.today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/sta<!-- m --> ... 95128.aspx
    Jul 01, 2009 By Alison Hewitt
    Staff leap into action as Jackson creates campus' biggest media surge in memory
    When Michael Jackson's ambulance arrived at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center on Thursday, June 25, the star was soon followed by hordes of paparazzi, TV reporters, fans and more. The crowd only grew from there.

    News crews swarmed outside the medical center to report on Jackson's death. In what many UCLA staff described as the biggest surge of media on campus in memory, even bigger than the 1984 Olympics, dozens of Bruins from departments all over campus teamed up to respond to the unprecedented crowds. Their tasks ranged from keeping aggressive paparazzi from sneaking into the emergency room, to crowd and traffic control, to arranging a press conference with the Jackson family – not to mention medical care for Jackson.

    "Staff at the UCLA Medical Center really pulled together during this unprecedented event, from the doctors and nurses to the security, the media representatives and more," said Amir Dan Rubin, the Chief Operating Officer of the hospital. "As hundreds of mourners and press appeared on our doorstep, our team successfully responded to the unexpected surge of interest in one patient without letting it ever interfere with our ability to provide exceptional care for each and every one of our other patients."

    When Jackson's ambulance arrived early Thursday afternoon, it was clear that the hospital needed to react quickly before the swelling crowd got out of control. A call went out to UCLA's police department moments after Jackson's ambulance arrived, said UCPD Captain John Adams.

    Hundreds of fans, mourners and media massed outside UCLA's medical center when news broke that Michael Jackson was inside. "We were on scene one minute later," Adams said. Their job was all the trickier because the throngs began arriving even faster than the police did. "We secured the perimeter to make sure that the ER was still accessible to people who needed to be treated, while keeping the paparazzi out. We were cognizant that there could be people who were faking an injury or illness just to get in and snap pictures. We also worked closely with the Jackson family to help them come in safely."

    All incoming patients and patients' visitors were screened. Charles Young Drive South was closed to all but ambulance traffic, and police set up barricades of yellow tape, reinforced with UC police, hospital security, officers from the Los Angeles Police Department and elsewhere. Adams estimated there were up to 1,500 gawkers, mourners and media around the hospital.

    "We contacted the LAPD for their assistance because we knew this was going to be a large-scale event," Adams said. "We used their assistance to create safe passage for patients and to keep the looky-loos back."

    News crews took over the lawns at the medical center to report on Jackson's death. The hospital stopped one reporter who was caught sneaking in via an underground elevator from a parking garage directly to the emergency room, and Adams encountered another. "I'm not sure whether anyone faked an injury, but we did have one individual come in for treatment who was a paparazzi," Adams added. "We made sure they didn't have access to a secure area."

    The hospital's media relations representatives worked with Jackson's family to arrange an announcement to the press in a downstairs auditorium. There were some anxious moments as crowds of journalists and fans gathered in front of the medical center's main entrance waiting to be let in. More than a dozen hospital and campus media reps joined officers in guiding reporters downstairs five at a time, checking media credentials at the door and turning away fans. Reporters and bulky video cameras soon filled the space, and even though the room seats nearly 200, not all the media could fit.

    "We all did our best to accommodate an unprecedented volume of reporters on campus due to the extraordinary level of interest in Michael Jackson's death," said Phil Hampton, assistant director of UCLA's Office of Media Relations.

    "King of Pop is dead at 50," read a newspaper at an impromptu memorial to Michael Jackson the day after his death. Jackson's brother Jermaine confirmed the news already being reported. "The legendary King of Pop, Michael Jackson, passed away on Thursday, June 25, 2009, at 2:26 p.m. It is believed he suffered cardiac arrest in his home," he said. "A team of [UCLA] doctors, including emergency physicians and cardiologists, attempted to resuscitate him for a period of more than one hour but were unsuccessful."

    The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department sent a helicopter to lift Jackson's body from the hospital to the coroner's office, and the California Highway Patrol was on hand to create a traffic break and provide an escort in case the helicopter was unavailable. On campus, the UCLA Fire Department stepped in to make sure a candlelight vigil didn't light foliage ablaze. Media relations representatives took calls and answered questions day and night.

    UCLA's Parking Services juggled the hundreds of bumper-to-bumper TV trucks from around the world seeking curbside access to the hospital, helping them park close enough to transmit live shots from their roving cameras.

    Some news vans ignored UCLA's parking officers and parked on the grass, where their tires tore into the lawn. "We provided public parking [at the regular rate] in structure 8, and we allowed the TV trucks to park in the north and southbound lanes of Westwood, keeping the middle open for traffic," said Steve Rand, manager of traffic, events and adjudication for Parking Services. "Although we have never had this many media in my memory – that's 30 years on campus – we do have an emergency plan that calls for this very thing."

    Two tow trucks circled the area, and public cars that parked in media slots were ticketed. E-mails were sent to UCLA staff parked in structures 6, 8 and 9, recommending alternative routes out of campus. Preventing pedestrians from crossing or blocking Westwood Plaza took as much attention as traffic control, Rand said.

    "Trying to keep people out of traffic lanes was a big part of our job," he said. "There really isn't a lot of room in front of the hospital for people to gather."

    A sequined glove, a tribute to Jackson's jewel-encrusted trademark, lay among the bouquets, posters and votive candles at an impromptu memorial to Jackson outside the hospital. Slowly, the press and the crowds began to let up. Many TV news crews left after a final 11 p.m. live shot, and although the satellite trucks returned as early as 2 a.m. to begin shooting for morning news shows, the street was almost bare of news vehicles by late morning. Campus and hospital media representatives continued to receive calls for days, and professors from across campus were called on for their expertise to comment on aspects of Jackson's life and legacy.

    But the same day that the crowds arrived on campus, they also dissipated. Facilities Management sent clean-up crews to collect the debris left behind by the hundreds of onlookers, and an impromptu memorial to Jackson was contained within a red tape barrier. The morning after Jackson's death, the hundreds had dwindled to a half-dozen, and UCLA staff from campus police, fire, transportation, the hospital, media relations, and other units began to return to more routine duties.

    "We worked really well with the hospital and media relations and parking and the LAPD and everyone else," said Adams. "I'm pretty proud of how all the different units on campus were able to work together to create that controlled chaos."

    "It took a true team effort on the part of the hospital and the campus community to effectively manage a fluidly unfolding and fast-paced situation," said Roxanne Yamaguchi Moster, director of UCLA's Health Sciences Media Relations. "We are grateful for all of the support we received."


    Dr. Cooper is reported to have called Time of Death.
    <!-- m -->http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/micha<!-- m --> ... psy-report

    Dr. Richelle Cooper is who testified at the pre-lim. This is an article on her. <!-- m -->http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci<!-- m --> ... ck_check=1

    So this is already a very long post so I will stop now. If I have come up with at least 2 strong points whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, it hasn't been acknowledge by anyone nor has anyone really posted solid proof debunking any of my theories. I have a question mark hanging over my head right now on what or IF any of what I wrote is correct or wrong. <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: --> <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
    The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.

    On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).
  • So IF the ambo's are "in" on it would it not be insane for MJ to actually go to the hospital and not use the decoy as a cover to "get to the airport'?

    However, is the helicopter "moving" video legit then?

    Or the MJ "jumping out of the coroners's van"?

    And, IF the ambo's are in, and UCLA staff in, why chance getting caught by then "exiting" stage left?

    Hypothectically, IF both are in on it, why would MJ even wait til June 25th to make his "getaway"? Stage was set to leave whenever he wanted, "in the dead of night", when noone even knew or cared.

    Seems somewhat risky for parties involved to have MJ's "cover" blown. Dummy, Double or whatever, having these parties involved and covering there would be no need to actually go to hospital. What if "someone" saw him alive or something, I am sure the press were probably hiding in stairwells and such just to get a shot of anything "newsworthy".

    Leads me to beLIEve 1 or 3 ambo's were in on it and MJ was drinking rita's wherever.

    But, "michael was already at airport" quote debunks he was "long gone". So perhaps MJ waited til June 25th to leave. But why risk getting caught by going to hospital? MJ was "unrecognizable" so the ER staff and the few choosen to work on him can pass it off as DEAD.

    So now ambo's,staff and FBI are in on it by this scenario so....Why would the FBI even allow MJ to go to UCLA? Too much risk, no reward. Even if the trouble WAS made to pull of the haox with help, the very chance, with every media present seems illogical to have MJ at UCLA. The hoax would of died right there.
  • Thanks, TS.

    Marlon isn't in the FBI hat for nothing, that's for sure but I'm still trying to figure out why he would wear it. It must be a message he wanted photographed and documented. And there's that blue track suit again! I think it was said by Larry Geller that Elvis had one of those suits too the night before he "left"... <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> "Blue Gangsta's" <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->

    I'll get back to you all because I want to try and show evidence that there was no body transported to the hospital. I'm working on it.

    I like what TS says here:

    Fourth, if the FBI is involved, why would TS expose this publicly on the internet? Again, look at the Elvis case. Why does Linda's website publicly expose the fact that government agents helped Elvis in the past and recently? Is Linda's website putting anyone in danger? No. Why not? Because the general public has never heard of her website; and of the few who do see it, many still don't believe it. Same for this MJ hoax website. It is not getting millions of hits a day (not yet, anyway ). Few are watching, most of which are merely forum members here; and even some of those don't believe what I am saying about the FBI.

    Fifth, there is more than one way to skin a cat. So let's look at it from the other side of the coin. If the FBI did not help out, then how could the Bel Air station not know something is fishy? Would they sit by quietly, and say nothing, while MJ hired actors and rented an ambulance to look just like the LAFD #71 ambulance? And why would the LAFD Captain say {}: "On June 25, 2009, LAFD responded ... our paramedic ..."--if indeed the LAFD did NOT respond, and it was merely actors in a rented ambulance?

    Do you think professionals could ALL be bought out for money? And when the truth came out, wouldn't there be serious consequences for all of them? Do you think they would not be charged with abuse of public office--ESPECIALLY if they got paid for it? Can they get out of it all, by saying that it was all just for a movie--and this or that legal loophole squeaks them by? Did you know that legal loopholes do not prevent people from getting charged with a crime? Did you know that loopholes may not even prevent someone from being convicted of a crime? Different people interpret the law differently; that is why there are lawyers and judges and juries.

    However, if key people in the FBI are cooperating with LAFD and MJ: then when the truth comes out, all they have to do is show success in catching some public corruption through this process--and all is well that ends well. After all, once again, that is their "top priority among criminal investigations" {http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption}.
  • Seems to me that the EMTs had to be involved. I just don't see how else it could have been pulled off. Same goes for the FBI. Didn't they release 333 pages of MJ's file? Is that a hint at the numerlology connection?
    Haven't had time to reread all the links. I'll get on that soon.

    Thank you for bringing this up. Didn't Charles Thomson say that he requested a copy of the FBI files? I have always wondered why those reports came out after June 25, 2009 and not before. It seems pretty significant in the timing.

    I also agree - I think all of the EMT personnel would have to be involved. They would be able to spot something suspicious and yet they have all remained really quiet about that day - except what we are supposed to read (they didn't recognize him,etc).

    I do think there was a body in that ambulance but I don't think it was Michael. I'm still not ruling out a real body but how did they time the death? They would have had to get someone who died at the right time. I struggle to believe this. So, maybe a cadaver.
  • GINAFELICIAGINAFELICIA Posts: 6,506
    The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital. And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA? MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?

    My opinion is that a corpse of another man was in the ambulance, not MJ, because paramedics didn't recognize him.
    Now I think that LAFD is involved but not to the level of paramedics who were at the site, but only on a higher lever, to keep as low as possible the number of the people who are in.And also because there was to be a trial and the paramedics were to testify under oath so they cannot lie (at least in theory), so that means they can not be in.
  • GINAFELICIAGINAFELICIA Posts: 6,506
    I also think that the topic of this thread must be linked with what happened to UCLA, are they in or not because let's say a dummy was in the ambulance, in that case UCLA has to be in as well, and also the coroner, lots of people involved.
    But if there was a real corpse it's not absolutely necesary UCLA and the coroner to be in....IDK
  • becbec Posts: 6,387
    or maybe not if this person already had a medical history with the disease he had and there was no autopsy. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
    Good point paula.

    Not really because the coroner has to be in on it already so a real body going through ucla is more trouble and risk then its worth.

    Paramedics are in on it, coroner is in on it... no one at ucla besides Dr. Cooper needs to know a thing. If they see anything its a dummy being wisked by on a stretcher surrounded by bodyguards. Who's gonna know the difference?

    If they used a real body they'd also have to account for it looking nothing like MJ should anyone unauthorized happen to sneak a peak; at ucla AND at the morgue. The dummy they could wrap in the sheet and send to the coroners... who's already in on it.. and then sneak away from the scene out the back door at some later hour.

    A real body remains around as a stand in for the "real" body of the allegedly dead MJ. It would really have to be secured and guarded as if it was the real body. That's a huge risk for the wrong someone to stumble upon, working still under the assumption that as few as possible in on the hoax the better.

    A real body leaves a physical evidence trail.

    No body allows them to control all the information and makes accurate leaks about it impossible.
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