Update from one of two of my legal friends working on this:
"I am going to clarify the thing about the affidavits...You can post the info I'm giving you...
An affidavit is valid as long as it's notarized by a notary in the country where it is used! So...If they married in the DR, the affidavit is going to be notarized in DR by a Dominican notary! That's how it works. It needs no stamp from the US Embassy...as long as there is a copy of their valid passport or birth certificate attached.
Ok...I was also searching on the internet. Back in those days...Birth Certificates (Certificados de nacimiento), Marriage Certificates (Certificados de Matrimonio) and Death Certificates (Certificados de Defuncion) were written by hand. I found a picture with the exposed Marriage License and Certificate of Lisa and Mike. It has the length, the appearance, the stamps (the stamps they glue at the end of the document) the regular circular stamps and their signatures...here you go!
You can't read it...cause it's a picture of the document but you can surely assure it is one, if you worked in the field! In case this is the original...here it is the pic!" <!-- s --><!-- s -->
"So basically, it's bull crap the thing about the notary! C'mon I worked with that...believe me I know. Also I went through this...With my documents. I had to notarize them in my country in order for them to be legal here. So...Just so you shut those stupid people's mouths...THE AFFIDAVIT HAS TO BE MADE IN THE COUNTRY YOU ARE (IN THIS CASE) GETTING MARRIED, BY A DOMINICAN REGISTERED NOTARY, YOU HAVE TO BE PRESENT TO SIGN AND GIVE YOUR INFORMATION ALONG WITH A COPY OF A PASSPORT OR ID, OR BIRTH CERTIFICATE!
That's it...They like it or not! When you come to the united states, if you want to translate it and validate it somehow in English, there's a whole procedure, but that doesn't mean that if you don't translate it...you're not married. Sure you are...That's why there's a lot of fraud too and bigamy. People think that if they are married in their country and come to the US, they're no longer married!
So...I guess the only thing we are missing is the full marriage license so I can translate it." <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
I don't know how she found this complete picture of both documents but she sure did her homework. I zoomed in on my computer as much as possible, but the details get lost the more you enlarge it; but you can tell it's theirs. Everything is present and accounted for. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
It would be a good thing to have both pages enlarge to see if that pic that your friend gave you has the same text than the pics shown on the internet.
May be the ones circulating in the internet are fraudulent ones to mislead people or just to get the attention.
Could you friend take a closer shot to compare all of the documents out there?
This would also help to see MJ´s sinature and compare them with other documents out there.
In this forum the possibility of a MJ "evil" double is being investigated and that document can clear up many things imo.
Not to marry before of the dissolution of a previous marriage. Divorced women not collapse new only up to ten (10) months after that divorce has come to be final, unless her new husband is it who is has divorced.The civil status officer at the time of the celebration of marriage, may exempt the spouses of any of these requirements for relevant reasons. Such waiver must be in writing explaining the causes and should be reflected in the certificate and marriage certificate
And this point, this requirement in the marriage certificate? , considering that LMP divorce becomes about twenty days <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
Not to marry before of the dissolution of a previous marriage. Divorced women not collapse new only up to ten (10) months after that divorce has come to be final, unless her new husband is it who is has divorced.The civil status officer at the time of the celebration of marriage, may exempt the spouses of any of these requirements for relevant reasons. Such waiver must be in writing explaining the causes and should be reflected in the certificate and marriage certificate
And this point, this requirement in the marriage certificate? , considering that LMP divorce becomes about twenty days <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
I also got that in mind as a legal requirement to proceed with the marriage. Some info is missing. Makes no sense.
That image posted by MsTrinity333 shows the seconf page with the stamps I was refering tobut still we can´t see the text. I am still waiting for an enlarged image.
MsTrinity333 You have explained a lot but have no explanations for the recurring errors in names, I guess Michael and Lisa Marie can write as they please their names but to lie in the names of Elvis Presley, Katherine Jackson, Joseph Jackson y Priscila Presley.
I never said that an affidavit is not a legal document, and I've never said that a handwritten document is not legal, but it is very rare that the affidavit is perfectly typewritten and the marriage certificate is handwritten .
And the two documents were made in the Dominican Republic
That's the first error, let's continue:
Joseph Jackson -> that should have been Joseph Walter Jackson
Kathreine Jackson -> that should have been Katherine Esther Jackson
Elvis Aaron Presley -> that should have been Elvis Aron Presley
Prisila Presley -> that should have been Priscilla Presley
[size=200]Your words MsTrinity333 [/size];
[quote] So...Just so you shut those stupid people's mouths...[/quote]
I've read your full post, and first you my respect, if not agree with anything that is said here is your problem, so do not have to say that people are "stupid."
Not to marry before of the dissolution of a previous marriage. Divorced women not collapse new only up to ten (10) months after that divorce has come to be final, unless her new husband is it who is has divorced.The civil status officer at the time of the celebration of marriage, may exempt the spouses of any of these requirements for relevant reasons. Such waiver must be in writing explaining the causes and should be reflected in the certificate and marriage certificate
And this point, this requirement in the marriage certificate? , considering that LMP divorce becomes about twenty days <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
I also got that in mind as a legal requirement to proceed with the marriage. Some info is missing. Makes no sense.
This has already been addressed in earlier posts: The government official performing the civil ceremony has the authority, at the time of the ceremony, to waive any of the above requirements.Such a waiver must be made in writing and outline the basis of the waiver.
MsTrinity333 You have explained a lot but have no explanations for the recurring errors in names, I guess Michael and Lisa Marie can write as they please their names but to lie in the names of Elvis Presley, Katherine Jackson, Joseph Jackson y Priscila Presley.
I never said that an affidavit is not a legal document, and I've never said that a handwritten document is not legal, but it is very rare that the affidavit is perfectly typewritten and the marriage certificate is handwritten .
And the two documents were made in the Dominican Republic
That's the first error, let's continue:
Joseph Jackson -> that should have been Joseph Walter Jackson
Kathreine Jackson -> that should have been Katherine Esther Jackson
Elvis Aaron Presley -> that should have been Elvis Aron Presley
Prisila Presley -> that should have been Priscilla Presley
[size=200]Your words MsTrinity333 [/size];
[quote] So...Just so you shut those stupid people's mouths...[/quote]
I've read your full post, and first you my respect, if not agree with anything that is said here is your problem, so do not have to say that people are "stupid."
You are not understanding what was written. I did not say people are stupid. That post is a "QUOTE" from one of TWO legal friends of mine who have been reading this forum argument and work in the field. They find this whole thing ridiculous. She gave me permission to quote & post her findings. Nothing more.
Again...the spelling errors have been touched on. It doesn't matter; this is filling in info only and these people did not sign anything.
This has already been addressed in earlier posts:
The government official performing the civil ceremony has the authority, at the time of the ceremony, to waive any of the above requirements.Such a waiver must be made in writing and outline the basis of the waiver
The civil status officer at the time of the celebration of marriage, may exempt the spouses of any of these requirements for relevant reasons. Such waiver must be in writing explaining the causes and should be reflected in the certificate and marriage certifi
This I know
I want someone to explain this
I guess Michael and Lisa Marie can write as they please their names but to lie in the names of Elvis Presley, Katherine Jackson, Joseph Jackson y Priscila Presley.
I guess Michael and Lisa Marie can write as they please their names but to lie in the names of Elvis Presley, Katherine Jackson, Joseph Jackson y Priscila Presley.
That is what I would liked to have explained also Paula, and not just by someone who works in the field typing an email to another person. No, I want to see proof that a marriage certificate riddled with typos in names of people involved still would be valid.
The most sloppy fault was listing MJ as Michael Joseph Jackson while stating on the same document he's a U.S. passport holder (used as identification), listing the number 034643028 of his passport on the certificate, while that passport clearly states his name is Michael Joe Jackson.
That in my opinion, is just too ridiculous for words.
I guess Michael and Lisa Marie can write as they please their names but to lie in the names of Elvis Presley, Katherine Jackson, Joseph Jackson y Priscila Presley.
That is what I would liked to have explained also Paula, and not just by someone who works in the field typing an email to another person. No, I want to see proof that a marriage certificate riddled with typos in names of people involved still would be valid.
The most sloppy fault was listing MJ as Michael Joseph Jackson while stating on the same document he's a U.S. passport holder (used as identification), listing the number 034643028 of his passport on the certificate, while that passport clearly states his name is Michael Joe Jackson.
That in my opinion, is just too ridiculous for words.
I have explained my findings on the spelling errors and the legal names issue from research on the internet posted earlier:
Any person may change his name as long as the change is not for a fraudulent purpose. Reasons for a name change are varied and personal. The person may dislike his given name, want to disassociate himself from a former lifestyle, or may need to change it for security and protection purposes. If your state allows name change by common usage, you may simply begin using your new name. The following reasons are likely to be considered good reasons by the court: to shorten your name, to distance yourself from your family or to use your stage name...
Can I obtain a birth certificate with my new name?
Yes. However, the laws in your state may only permit issuance of an amended birth certificate rather than a new original birth certificate.
Is it possible to have a new passport issued reflecting my name change?
Yes. You must apply for an amended passport by completing a Passport Amendment/Validation Application (Form DS-19). Additionally, you will have to provide a certified copy of the court order and your old passport.
I do not want to bother changing my name. Can I just use different versions of my name or initials?
Yes. Generally, it is sufficient to describe a person by any known or acceptable abbreviation of her name, and that includes initials. All states consider a person’s name to be her first and last name, allowing the substitution of either the correct initials or full middle name.
Can I start signing documents with my nickname?
Yes, as long as your nickname is commonly derived from your first name. For example, if your first name is William, it is acceptable to sign Bill on your documents. Your nickname must clearly identify you or the court will require additional proof that you are the person represented by the nickname in the event of any misunderstanding as to identity. To avoid any such misunderstandings, it is better to sign any important legal documents with your full name.
The law favors first & last names-middle names are not considered important. Additionally, if a middle name is omitted from your signature, it is of no consequence your signature is still valid. Middle names are considered a "nickname.
Your signature does not have to match what's on your birth certificate. you can adopt anything as your legal signature--it doesn't even have to include your name (you know, the whole just marking an X to indicate a signature). A legal signature is basically a mark made by you which signifies your intent to agree with whatever the item is that you are signing. Your legal signature is whatever you normally sign. It doesn't have to match your name. Most people sign things with the short version, and save the long version for taxes and so forth.
In general, your signature does not have to be your full name for legal purposes (contracts, etc.) General contract law - which for signatures is called "The Statute of Frauds"(yes honestly) - stipulates that a "signature" merely means any authentication which identifies the party to be charged. Even a letterhead or an "X" or nowadays am electronic signature (in some cases) will do, provided it is placed on the writing with the intent to authenticate it and it is the mark you usually sign - without an attempt to defraud. Some Federal guidelines want your signature to contain your "full legal name", but these are more regulations, really, than laws.
<!-- m -->http://ask.metafilter.com/4907/Does-my-<!-- m --> ... legal-name
If I find anything else I'll let you know. But these people that work in the field are qualified and know what they are talking about.
I think you are missing the point here though. We have a Marriage Certificate which used a passport to obtain the name of the groom (as his identification). The passport used, has the number recorded in the Marriage Licence but the information about the groom is not the same in both documents. So either this isn't the right passport used or this isn't the right information about the groom (another passport with the same number? Which means one of them is fake.) Something isn't right about this whole thing.
Then there are numerous spelling errors (even if we overlook the omitted middle names) of relevant information on the marriage certificate such as parents names (and if you are going to include Elvis' middle name why isn't it spelled correctly?)
Kathreine Jackson -> that should have been Katherine Jackson
Elvis Aaron Presley -> that should have been Elvis Aron Presley
Prisila Presley -> that should have been Priscilla Presley
The grooms signature does not match the signature on the passport that was used as identification nor does it match any previous usual signature or autograph. The Brides signature does not match any signature that has been publicly uncovered as of now either.
Add up all the errors, the signature issues and anything I may have missed and ask yourself...
How many errors etc before a document is no longer considered legal or is it a fake to begin with?
Who placed this item up for auction and why?
It isn't something that just anyone can access and place up for sale.
I think you are missing the point here though. We have a Marriage Certificate which used a passport to obtain the name of the groom (as his identification). The passport used, has the number recorded in the Marriage Licence but the information about the groom is not the same in both documents. So either this isn't the right passport used or this isn't the right information about the groom (another passport with the same number? Which means one of them is fake.) Something isn't right about this whole thing.
Then there are numerous spelling errors (even if we overlook the omitted middle names) of relevant information on the marriage certificate such as parents names (and if you are going to include Elvis' middle name why isn't it spelled correctly?)
Kathreine Jackson -> that should have been Katherine Jackson
Elvis Aaron Presley -> that should have been Elvis Aron Presley
Prisila Presley -> that should have been Priscilla Presley
The grooms signature does not match the signature on the passport that was used as identification nor does it match any previous usual signature or autograph. The Brides signature does not match any signature that has been publicly uncovered as of now either.
Add up all the errors, the signature issues and anything I may have missed and ask yourself...
How many errors etc before a document is no longer considered legal or is it a fake to begin with?
Who placed this item up for auction and why?
It isn't something that just anyone can access and place up for sale.
Exactly. A whole lot of 'excuses' would be needed to clarify all the 'mistakes' listed above.
Ok... I just heard from my second source and a lawyer. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> Here's the info on the spelling errors & signatures:
"On the signature-
Michael can draw a star on the document and Lisa can put an x on the document and if they acknowledge the star and the x as their signature, the document is legal. Signature in its simplest translation simply means a mark. So that puts to rest the argument that he signed as Michael Joe Jackson instead of Michael Joseph Jackson or Vice-versa, for as long as he signed it and acknowledge it as his signature."
"also wrong spelling has no bearing on the legality of the document."
This backs up everything I've found and posted also. <!-- s:geek: -->:geek:<!-- s:geek: -->
Comments
Lo sentimos, la página que estabas buscando en el blog Imagenes Dominicanas no existe. <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( -->
"I am going to clarify the thing about the affidavits...You can post the info I'm giving you...
An affidavit is valid as long as it's notarized by a notary in the country where it is used! So...If they married in the DR, the affidavit is going to be notarized in DR by a Dominican notary! That's how it works. It needs no stamp from the US Embassy...as long as there is a copy of their valid passport or birth certificate attached.
Ok...I was also searching on the internet. Back in those days...Birth Certificates (Certificados de nacimiento), Marriage Certificates (Certificados de Matrimonio) and Death Certificates (Certificados de Defuncion) were written by hand. I found a picture with the exposed Marriage License and Certificate of Lisa and Mike. It has the length, the appearance, the stamps (the stamps they glue at the end of the document) the regular circular stamps and their signatures...here you go!
You can't read it...cause it's a picture of the document but you can surely assure it is one, if you worked in the field! In case this is the original...here it is the pic!" <!-- s
<!-- m -->http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9249/12372758.jpg<!-- m -->
"So basically, it's bull crap the thing about the notary! C'mon I worked with that...believe me I know. Also I went through this...With my documents. I had to notarize them in my country in order for them to be legal here. So...Just so you shut those stupid people's mouths...THE AFFIDAVIT HAS TO BE MADE IN THE COUNTRY YOU ARE (IN THIS CASE) GETTING MARRIED, BY A DOMINICAN REGISTERED NOTARY, YOU HAVE TO BE PRESENT TO SIGN AND GIVE YOUR INFORMATION ALONG WITH A COPY OF A PASSPORT OR ID, OR BIRTH CERTIFICATE!
That's it...They like it or not! When you come to the united states, if you want to translate it and validate it somehow in English, there's a whole procedure, but that doesn't mean that if you don't translate it...you're not married. Sure you are...That's why there's a lot of fraud too and bigamy. People think that if they are married in their country and come to the US, they're no longer married!
So...I guess the only thing we are missing is the full marriage license so I can translate it." <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
<!-- m -->http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9249/12372758.jpg<!-- m -->
The 2nd page (the bottom one) have 4 stamps as demanded before the Haya convention, 3 glued ( as may be was in DR) and one in ink.
I can´t see properly the stamps nor the text explaining who the couple is but both pages woud make the legal document valid.
May be the ones circulating in the internet are fraudulent ones to mislead people or just to get the attention.
Could you friend take a closer shot to compare all of the documents out there?
This would also help to see MJ´s sinature and compare them with other documents out there.
In this forum the possibility of a MJ "evil" double is being investigated and that document can clear up many things imo.
And this point, this requirement in the marriage certificate? , considering that LMP divorce becomes about twenty days <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
I also got that in mind as a legal requirement to proceed with the marriage. Some info is missing. Makes no sense.
I never said that an affidavit is not a legal document, and I've never said that a handwritten document is not legal, but it is very rare that the affidavit is perfectly typewritten and the marriage certificate is handwritten .
And the two documents were made in the Dominican Republic
I've read your full post, and first you my respect, if not agree with anything that is said here is your problem, so do not have to say that people are "stupid."
(Now i have my glasses on...I hope i write better and don´t confuse letters <!-- s
This has already been addressed in earlier posts:
The government official performing the civil ceremony has the authority, at the time of the ceremony, to waive any of the above requirements.Such a waiver must be made in writing and outline the basis of the waiver.
You are not understanding what was written. I did not say people are stupid. That post is a "QUOTE" from one of TWO legal friends of mine who have been reading this forum argument and work in the field. They find this whole thing ridiculous. She gave me permission to quote & post her findings. Nothing more.
Again...the spelling errors have been touched on. It doesn't matter; this is filling in info only and these people did not sign anything.
This I know
I want someone to explain this
That is what I would liked to have explained also Paula, and not just by someone who works in the field typing an email to another person. No, I want to see proof that a marriage certificate riddled with typos in names of people involved still would be valid.
The most sloppy fault was listing MJ as Michael Joseph Jackson while stating on the same document he's a U.S. passport holder (used as identification), listing the number 034643028 of his passport on the certificate, while that passport clearly states his name is Michael Joe Jackson.
That in my opinion, is just too ridiculous for words.
Was it hand written or type written?
Come on, they can´t be that sloppy in DR. Did they give MJ and LMP Diplomat treatment or what?
Something smeels Ben.
I have explained my findings on the spelling errors and the legal names issue from research on the internet posted earlier:
Any person may change his name as long as the change is not for a fraudulent purpose. Reasons for a name change are varied and personal. The person may dislike his given name, want to disassociate himself from a former lifestyle, or may need to change it for security and protection purposes. If your state allows name change by common usage, you may simply begin using your new name. The following reasons are likely to be considered good reasons by the court: to shorten your name, to distance yourself from your family or to use your stage name...
Can I obtain a birth certificate with my new name?
Yes. However, the laws in your state may only permit issuance of an amended birth certificate rather than a new original birth certificate.
Is it possible to have a new passport issued reflecting my name change?
Yes. You must apply for an amended passport by completing a Passport Amendment/Validation Application (Form DS-19). Additionally, you will have to provide a certified copy of the court order and your old passport.
I do not want to bother changing my name. Can I just use different versions of my name or initials?
Yes. Generally, it is sufficient to describe a person by any known or acceptable abbreviation of her name, and that includes initials. All states consider a person’s name to be her first and last name, allowing the substitution of either the correct initials or full middle name.
Can I start signing documents with my nickname?
Yes, as long as your nickname is commonly derived from your first name. For example, if your first name is William, it is acceptable to sign Bill on your documents. Your nickname must clearly identify you or the court will require additional proof that you are the person represented by the nickname in the event of any misunderstanding as to identity. To avoid any such misunderstandings, it is better to sign any important legal documents with your full name.
The law favors first & last names-middle names are not considered important. Additionally, if a middle name is omitted from your signature, it is of no consequence your signature is still valid. Middle names are considered a "nickname.
Your signature does not have to match what's on your birth certificate. you can adopt anything as your legal signature--it doesn't even have to include your name (you know, the whole just marking an X to indicate a signature). A legal signature is basically a mark made by you which signifies your intent to agree with whatever the item is that you are signing. Your legal signature is whatever you normally sign. It doesn't have to match your name. Most people sign things with the short version, and save the long version for taxes and so forth.
In general, your signature does not have to be your full name for legal purposes (contracts, etc.) General contract law - which for signatures is called "The Statute of Frauds"(yes honestly) - stipulates that a "signature" merely means any authentication which identifies the party to be charged. Even a letterhead or an "X" or nowadays am electronic signature (in some cases) will do, provided it is placed on the writing with the intent to authenticate it and it is the mark you usually sign - without an attempt to defraud. Some Federal guidelines want your signature to contain your "full legal name", but these are more regulations, really, than laws.
<!-- m -->http://ask.metafilter.com/4907/Does-my-<!-- m --> ... legal-name
If I find anything else I'll let you know. But these people that work in the field are qualified and know what they are talking about.
I think you are missing the point here though. We have a Marriage Certificate which used a passport to obtain the name of the groom (as his identification). The passport used, has the number recorded in the Marriage Licence but the information about the groom is not the same in both documents. So either this isn't the right passport used or this isn't the right information about the groom (another passport with the same number? Which means one of them is fake.) Something isn't right about this whole thing.
Then there are numerous spelling errors (even if we overlook the omitted middle names) of relevant information on the marriage certificate such as parents names (and if you are going to include Elvis' middle name why isn't it spelled correctly?)
Kathreine Jackson -> that should have been Katherine Jackson
Elvis Aaron Presley -> that should have been Elvis Aron Presley
Prisila Presley -> that should have been Priscilla Presley
The grooms signature does not match the signature on the passport that was used as identification nor does it match any previous usual signature or autograph. The Brides signature does not match any signature that has been publicly uncovered as of now either.
Add up all the errors, the signature issues and anything I may have missed and ask yourself...
How many errors etc before a document is no longer considered legal or is it a fake to begin with?
Who placed this item up for auction and why?
It isn't something that just anyone can access and place up for sale.
The one for sale can be a fake.
Herny Vaccaro also had a huge storage with MJ´s memorabilia. May be this document could have been there?
Exactly. A whole lot of 'excuses' would be needed to clarify all the 'mistakes' listed above.
"On the signature-
Michael can draw a star on the document and Lisa can put an x on the document and if they acknowledge the star and the x as their signature, the document is legal. Signature in its simplest translation simply means a mark. So that puts to rest the argument that he signed as Michael Joe Jackson instead of Michael Joseph Jackson or Vice-versa, for as long as he signed it and acknowledge it as his signature."
"also wrong spelling has no bearing on the legality of the document."
This backs up everything I've found and posted also. <!-- s:geek: -->:geek:<!-- s:geek: -->