Ah Sandal, that's more like it! Something definite we can all see, to try and explain. Thanks! <br /><br />(I've been reluctant to answer MFFreedom and applehead's posts because there's no point in pulling them apart just for the sake of it - you guys simply see/imagine one thing, I see/imagine another!)<br /><br />But, back to the picture on the Michael album - I think we talked about the 10 children pictured before, when I've got more time I'll see if I can find the thread. So, is the artist showing Brandon, Marlon's twin, (strangely as a young man when he died as a baby) ...or...... !!!!<br /><br />More later! xx
I just came across this on Arnold Klein's Facebook page 2hrs ago. Arnold Klein is on a roll with confirming it WAS<br />NOT Michael at the London announcement, but rather an impersonator.......<br /><br />Arnold W. Klein<br />the problem with AEG....during the London interview this was not Michael ...look at the chin!<br /><br />https://www.facebook.com/#!/arnold.klein?hc_location=stream<br /><br />Arnold W. Klein<br />the impersonator had a cleft in the bottom of his chin like a tooth. When /i rebuilt Michael's face there was no cleft!!! look at the width of the impersonator's mouth.Like · · Share · 3 hours ago · 10 people like this..<br /><br />Lesley Anthony http://michaeljacksonnotdead.wordpress.com/tag/imposter/<br /><br />Lesley Anthony... latex MJ moulded mask Ines Parrain.. What do mean Arnold ? I mean, Michael had a chin's cleft for ages.... Look at the 2005' pictures... Anyway, there was an impersonator in TII, I agree with that.<br /><br />Lesley Anthony ..Arnold W. Klein can you please comment on this blog / article that claims, that you were reonstructing his face so he could get away unrecognized? http://michaeljacksonnotdead.wordpress.com/.../
<br />Ah Sandal, that's more like it! Something definite we can all see, to try and explain. Thanks! <br /><br />(I've been reluctant to answer MFFreedom and applehead's posts because there's no point in pulling them apart just for the sake of it - you guys simply see/imagine one thing, I see/imagine another!)<br /><br />But, back to the picture on the Michael album - I think we talked about the 10 children pictured before, when I've got more time I'll see if I can find the thread. So, is the artist showing Brandon, Marlon's twin, (strangely as a young man when he died as a baby) ...or...... !!!!<br /><br />More later! xx<br />
<br /><br /><br />Ok, here is my theory and food for thought:<br /><br />Katherine gives birth to Michael #1 on 8/29/1958. Then she becomes pregnant again in 1959 of a boy (Michael #2), giving birth on 1/28/1960. It is winter, they are poor and they can't feed another hungry mouth. This little boy will be raised by family, like Joe's brother Luther and his wife. I don't think they had any kids and I believe he often came to the Jacksons for rehearsals. So the kid was not 'hidden', just raised in a different home. The kid growing up at Luther's turned out to be a talented little shit like his brothers, PLUS looks a lot like big bro Michael. I am not sure if they were both named Michael at birth (first one Michael Joe, second one Michael Joseph) or if they changed that later when they started performing both under the same name. I think it was not strange back then to have kids with the same names, maybe they looked alike as babies already or maybe they legally changed that later. Not important for my theory.<br /><br />So recap: we have two MJ's:<br /><br />Michael Joe Jackson, born August 29, 1958<br />Michael Joseph Jackson, born January 28, 1960<br /><br />I name that date in January for a few reasons. Firstly it is a date I came across in the Intelius records, secondly we had MJ's will revoked on January 28, 2010 (MJ #2 would have been exactly 50 years old then, perfect day to revoke your will) and lastly, if you watch The Jacksons, an American dream, you see Katherine pregnant of MJ in 1959 giving birth in winter (Joe walks around on a frozen potato field or something, I don't think that would be frozen in Indiana in August...).<br /><br />Anyway, MJ #1 and #2 both perform, both make records, both make videos. There is a difference in height (5'8" vs. 5'11"/6'), there is a difference in attitude (shy vs. anything but shy), a difference in eyes (big round eyes vs. smaller curved eyes), a difference in voice (high voice vs. low voice (and yes I believe one FAKED a high voice because his brother had a higher voice), a difference in skin color (MJ #1 having light skin due to vitiligo vs. MJ #2 being a full blown black dude and Quincy Jones being HONEST when he said: MJ did not have vitiligo, he just wants to be white!). In my opinion, Quincy only knew MJ #2 who had to cake himself in make up to match his bro's skin color, not able to tell Quincy why he did that because I believe only the family knows. The picture I posted earlier in the thread clearly shows the 2 different men, the top one being the younger one, caked in make-up, doing most of the official photo shoots. The bottom one being the older MJ we have seen since the early 90’s. <br /><br />At a certain point in the late 80's, MJ#2 quits, which is why I was so confused not to see much differences anymore in public appearances after that time. He is still black, they start to look alike less and less, he is sick of the mob in his neck and he has a family (TDCAU: I have a wife and 2 children??) and who knows what other reasons there were for him to stop being in the limelight that much. He does make some music still, some shoots and some videos and helps out his bro when needed all the way through the 90’s, but he is out of the public eye, his older brother does all that from the early 90's on. (One Michael LEAVES in Moonwalker, the one returning is the older brother. It is ‘Stranger in Moscow MJ’ that leaves, ‘Dirty Diana MJ’ that comes back.<br /><br />But his absence is not permanent, he will return, they both need to make $$$ for their big plan and in the meantime they want to out the evil powers surrounding them and all of us while also doing something NO ONE has ever done. This is it 'Staging the Return'. What return? MJ never really left. He didn’t tour much, but he was never really gone. This is the return of MJ #2 plus the biggest show on earth with his brother. I still believe what I said in my blog, that they had a fight and hadn't been in contact for a decade or more, which is why MJ was not touring or making lots of music. The TII album cover: 'Always nice to sing with my brother'. Not brotherS, but brother. But at the memorial MJ's painS, not pain. Everything points to MJ the entertainer being 2 brothers. THAT is why he ‘can be in two places at the same time'. That is why he is invincible. Even IF they would have managed to kill one, the other MJ would still be alive. No double (though I bet there are plenty), but blood. 2 MJ's, both real, both would be recognized as MJ, yet next to each other would make people go 'WTF???'.<br /><br />Who is it? Is it a friend of mine? Is it my brother?<br /><br />There is an interview with little Mike (#2, the not so shy one) with Dick Clark where he is asked how many brothers and sisters he has:<br /><br /><br /><br />6 brothers?? Jackie, Tito, Jermaine, Marlon & Randy makes 5… You do not include a dead brother you have never met, that is a worthless excuse. The kid has 6 brothers at the time of the question, clear as day.<br /><br />Donald Trump had a very interesting comment on the phone with LKL after the ‘death’. There were TWO Michael Jacksons, and he knew them both… Hear what he has to say:<br /><br /><br /><br />There are videos, lyrics and tons of other stuff pointing to what I have been saying all along: MJ is really MJs. Two people, one entertainer. As applehead mentioned: that is how the name Michael JOSEPH Jackson can be in the dangerous deposition. It is why some songs are written by JOE, some by JOSEPH. It really is 2 people. So is the Death Certificate real now? NO. Michael JOE is the oldest, born 8/29/1958. Michael JOSEPH is the youngest, born January 28, 1960. Michael Joseph Jackson born 1958 does not exist. It’s a morph of the 2 bro’s.<br /><br />It is how MJ #1 can be in NY on 7/7/2002, and MJ #2 in LA signing a will (or the other way around). <br /><br />There is so much more I could mention, but I guess I made my point for now. Every ‘weird’ and ‘unexplainable’ things about MJ can be perfectly explained when it is 2 different people. <br /><br />Call me crazy but if you do, prove me wrong!<br /><br />
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
<br />I just came across this on Arnold Klein's Facebook page 2hrs ago. Arnold Klein is on a roll with confirming it WAS<br />NOT Michael at the London announcement, but rather an impersonator.......<br /><br />Arnold W. Klein<br />the problem with AEG....during the London interview this was not Michael ...look at the chin!<br /><br />https://www.facebook.com/#!/arnold.klein?hc_location=stream<br /><br />Arnold W. Klein<br />the impersonator had a cleft in the bottom of his chin like a tooth. When /i rebuilt Michael's face there was no cleft!!! look at the width of the impersonator's mouth.Like · · Share · 3 hours ago · 10 people like this..<br /><br />Lesley Anthony http://michaeljacksonnotdead.wordpress.com/tag/imposter/<br /><br />Lesley Anthony... latex MJ moulded mask Ines Parrain.. What do mean Arnold ? I mean, Michael had a chin's cleft for ages.... Look at the 2005' pictures... Anyway, there was an impersonator in TII, I agree with that.<br /><br />Lesley Anthony ..Arnold W. Klein can you please comment on this blog / article that claims, that you were reonstructing his face so he could get away unrecognized? http://michaeljacksonnotdead.wordpress.com/.../<br />
<br /><br />DUH! LOL. His chin looks like an ass!
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
<br />This implies the 2 MJ idea (and others) did not come directly from Souza but were 'planted' - this doesn't make them true or false, but I think it's worth bearing in mind.<br /><br />
<br /><br />I would like to add that even though people threw pics and vids at us back then, this is something I have always seen. I had never looked into it before, but I always have seen at least 2 MJ's. With a double too many things still didn't make sense, with a brother it suddenly did. And yes, I believe it is a joint hoax! Neither on the 'bad side'.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
<br />I just came across this on Arnold Klein's Facebook page 2hrs ago. Arnold Klein is on a roll with confirming it WAS<br />NOT Michael at the London announcement, but rather an impersonator.......<br /><br />Arnold W. Klein<br />the problem with AEG....during the London interview this was not Michael ...look at the chin!<br /><br />https://www.facebook.com/#!/arnold.klein?hc_location=stream<br /><br />Arnold W. Klein<br />the impersonator had a cleft in the bottom of his chin like a tooth. When /i rebuilt Michael's face there was no cleft!!! look at the width of the impersonator's mouth.Like · · Share · 3 hours ago · 10 people like this..<br /><br />Lesley Anthony http://michaeljacksonnotdead.wordpress.com/tag/imposter/<br /><br />Lesley Anthony... latex MJ moulded mask Ines Parrain.. What do mean Arnold ? I mean, Michael had a chin's cleft for ages.... Look at the 2005' pictures... Anyway, there was an impersonator in TII, I agree with that.<br /><br />Lesley Anthony ..Arnold W. Klein can you please comment on this blog / article that claims, that you were reonstructing his face so he could get away unrecognized? http://michaeljacksonnotdead.wordpress.com/.../<br />
<br /><br />DUH! LOL. His chin looks like an ass!<br />
~Souza~ whatever you said makes sense and I'm shocked and like fml, but if M Joseph died and the autopsy was real they confirmed that he had vitiligo and height around 1.80(?) I think. When you say #2 you mean Michael Joseph right?<br />I am confused in that part.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Ok so comment number one!<br /><br />In the Dick Clark vid, look at his lips when he answers the question about how many brothers and sisters he has. He clearly shows the 'w' sound with his lips although I admit you can't really hear him say the second one - I think he's saying 'we have three sisters and we're six brothers' NOT 'I have three sisters and six brothers'.<br /><br />More interesting part of the vid in relation to your theory Souza, is the supposed date 1970 and the fact 'Michael' says he's 9 years old. This show had to have been recorded before Jan 28th (which of course it could have) or else it doesn't fit either Michael does it?!! I have read in the past that he said he was made to lie about his age to appear 'cuter' for longer, but of course, I don't know how accurate that is.<br /><br />I'm not going to call you crazy (yet!) Souza, thanks for the brain workout - it beats the boring as hell trial coverage anyway! And LOL I never thought I'd be putting the word Michael in '---' s!!
<br />(TDCAU: I have a wife and 2 children??) <br />
<br /><br />As of now I only have this to say.<br /><br />MJ married Lisa Marie Presley in May 1994 and divorced sometime around in 1996 (?).<br />The song was recorded in 1995, so MJ was still in marriage that makes him a step-dad to LMP's two kids.
Yeah that song was written much earlier. Plus if you believe the marriage license to LMP was real, you also believe the DC is real.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Souza, quick question(s). Why? What's the motive behind becoming one MJ? If MJ#2 turned out to be as talented as MJ#1, why not just go it alone? Or indeed, openly join the brothers? And make his own fortune, rather than sharing MJ#1's?
/><br /><br />At 2:07 Katherine says: "I never lost a child, children supposed to bury their parents, not the parents their children." <br /><br />.....so, no child of them died, not even Brandon!?? Were there 10 children after all?
@Souza<;br />Wonderful outlining of your thoughts - again. And it makes complete sense. Had to grin from side to side when reading. Almost wanting more to read ... <br /><br />@Do<;br />This is a clear clue: a mother would always remember having lost a child no matter what circumstances. For her to say she never lost a child implies clearly that she in fact never did. So there must be another brother. <br /><br />Exciting!
if you watch The Jacksons, an American dream, you see Katherine pregnant of MJ in 1959 giving birth in winter (Joe walks around on a <br />frozen potato field or something, I don't think that would be frozen in <br />Indiana in August...)<br /><br />
<br />I'm not so sure 'The Jacksons: An American Dream' can be used as credible evidence of dates. Look at this lot:<br /><br />Differences<br />There were a few scenes in the movie that are different from how they happened in real life.
<br />[li]In the beginning of the film, Joseph Jackson and Katherine Scruse are depicted meeting in Chicago in 1945, when in reality they met in 1947.[/li]<br />[li]The film depicts Michael as being born in 1959, as opposed to his actual birthdate in 1958.[/li]<br />[li]In one scene, The Jackson 5 sing "Since I Lost My Baby", and Michael sings the lead vocals. In real life, the Jackson 5 version of the song was recorded during the recording sessions for Diana Ross Presents The Jackson 5, and the lead vocals were sung by Jermaine Jackson.[/li]<br />[li]In the scene where The Jackson 5 are in the recording studio, they are recording the song "Kansas City" In real life, The Jackson 5 never recorded the song.[/li]<br />[li]In the scene where the Jackson 5 are singing the national anthem, the outfield of Dodger Stadium is clearly visible. In reality, they performed it in Cincinnati's Riverfront Stadium during the 1970 World Series. In addition, the Cincinnati Reds lineup shown in the movie features a player with similarities to Joe Morgan. In reality, he did not join the Reds for another two years.[/li]<br />[li]The song "I wanna be where you are" was originally recorded by only Michael Jackson for his 1971 solo album. The other Jackson Brothers were not on the sessions.[/li]<br />[li]The song "Rockin Robin" was actually recorded in 1971, not 1970, and it was Motown, in response to Donny Osmond's solo album, that Michael Jackson got pushed to make a solo album that very same year, entitled "Got to be There."[/li]<br />[li]The song "Dancing Machine" was actually recorded in 1974, not 1976, when the Jackson Five were in the studio before deciding to move on.[/li]<br />[li]Jermaine Jackson got divorced from Hazel Gordy in 1984.[/li]<br />[li]In another scene, Michael is recording "Human Nature" for his album,
Thriller in 1983. In real life, the album was released in 1982.[/li]<br />[li]In the Motown audition scene, They sing James Brown's "I Got the Feelin'". The entire group sings "baby, baby, baby", while in reality it was only Michael singing that part.[/li]<br />[li]In the Motown audition scene, Berry Gordy was not actually in attendance. Instead the audition was videotaped and shown to Gordy at a later time.[/li]<br />[li]During the Motown 25 performance of "Billie Jean", Michael is wearing his sequined glove on his right hand. In real life, during the actual performance, it was on his left hand.[/li]<br />[li]In the scene where The Jacksons are shooting a Pepsi commercial, Michael's hair catches on fire and he falls down the stairs. In real life, Michael was unaware that his hair was on fire as he continued dancing down the stairs.[/li]<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jacksons:_An_American_Dream
I am not arguing that The American Dream is not completely accurate. This movie was produced in the early 90's though by Jermaine and I understand dates are mistaken or changed on purpose for whatever reason but we are talking about the birth day of the most famous member of the group. Not only do we see 1959 on the screen before he is ever born, they even put in the detail that it was freezing when he was born. Just the year could have been an honest editing mistake for me, but that little detail about the weather when he was born is too much. It doesn't freeze in Gary in August. This is one of the hottest months and that was no different in 1958: http://weatherspark.com/history/30851/1958/Chicago-Illinois-United-States while on Januaty 1960 it was indeed freezing: http://weatherspark.com/history/30851/1960/Chicago-Illinois-United-States
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
<br />It's called dramatic license. This is a drama not a documentary.<br />
<br /><br />Why is it more dramatic to give birth in winter than when it's a hundred degrees? I do not see this movie getting any better from it, it's not even a big part in the movie. They could have easily just used the 1958 DOB.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Souza, I love your food for thought. Question for you in the literal sense of the word can you be considered or would people considered you a twin if you and your siblings are less that 2 years apart and always together. Let's say for example Marlon considers Brandon his twin because they are less than 2 years apart and they are both are thicker than thieves(the old saying) because you cannot find one without the other and now the phrase twins come into play.
<br />Why is it more dramatic to give birth in winter than when it's a hundred degrees? I do not see this movie getting any better from it, it's not even a big part in the movie. They could have easily just used the 1958 DOB.<br />
<br /><br />They might have wanted to include the winter picking potatoes scene to show how tough life was for Joe, but because it would've been disjointed and wouldn't fit in 'in isolation', it could've been incorporated into the Michael's birth section. How can we know the reasons for a drama production team's decisions? They could've easily just used the other correct dates too. But they didn't, for no apparent reason!<br /><br />Has anyone read Katherine Jackson's autobiography, My Family, which the drama was based on to see if she actually confirms any of this?<br /><br />I've watched the whole of 'The American Dream' today, having only seen snippets in the past. Had me in tears several times I have to admit! And with names and ages on my mind, I noticed Katherine saying twice that she was naming the baby Michael Joe, and Suzanne de Passe drilling Michael into saying he was 9, when he was 11, for the cute factor (I knew I'd picked that up from somewhere before!). So they'd morphed into one right from the outset?<br /><br />@Sandal, Marlon and Michael were shown as very close (thick as thieves) in The American Dream. Don't know if that means anything, but thought I'd mention it in light of your post!
This is an extract from Chapter 2 of Katherine's book 'My Family':<br /><br />......... My experience with Marlon and Brandon didn’t dissuade me from getting pregnant again. The following year August 29, I gave birth to another boy. <br />I remember that day well because my water broke while my neighbor Mildred White and I were driving over to see the new grammar school under construction, Garnett Elementary. <br />“Oh, my God, Mildred, I can’t sit in your car like this!” I exclaimed.<br />“Girl, don’t worry about it,” Mildred said, turning the car around.<br />At my request Mildred drove me home. I called my mother and she and my stepfather drove me to Mercy Hospital. Shortly after I got there, I began having contractions. Later that night, my son was born.<br />“I want to name him,” my mother said. I hated her first suggestion: Ronald. “How about Roy, then?” “Oh, my gosh, Mama, no.” She thought for a little while. “I’ve got it -- Michael.” “That’s it,” I said.<br />By then I was used to seeing my babies born with funny looking heads, so I wasn’t alarmed by Michael’s. The two other things I <br />remember about him as I held him in my arms for the first time were his big brown eyes and his long hands, which reminded me of my father-in-law’s. <br />“I bet I was an accident!” Michael has teased. He wasn’t, but after he was born, I did decide to take a break from childbearing <br />--after eight births in eight years I felt I deserved one -- and go to work part-time as a sales clerk at Sears.<br />Randy, our next child, didn’t arrive for another three years, on October 31, 1961. Almost five more years elapsed before I gave birth to Janet, on August 16, 1966. ......<br /><br />http://jetzi-mjvideo.com/books-jetzi-04/kj/kj02.html<br /><br />I've been trying to find out when Garnett Elementary school was constructed - but no luck so far, and I really must do some work now!
Comments
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."<br />[li]In the beginning of the film, Joseph Jackson and Katherine Scruse are depicted meeting in Chicago in 1945, when in reality they met in 1947.[/li]<br />[li]The film depicts Michael as being born in 1959, as opposed to his actual birthdate in 1958.[/li]<br />[li]In one scene, The Jackson 5 sing "Since I Lost My Baby", and Michael sings the lead vocals. In real life, the Jackson 5 version of the song was recorded during the recording sessions for Diana Ross Presents The Jackson 5, and the lead vocals were sung by Jermaine Jackson.[/li]<br />[li]In the scene where The Jackson 5 are in the recording studio, they are recording the song "Kansas City" In real life, The Jackson 5 never recorded the song.[/li]<br />[li]In the scene where the Jackson 5 are singing the national anthem, the outfield of Dodger Stadium is clearly visible. In reality, they performed it in Cincinnati's Riverfront Stadium during the 1970 World Series. In addition, the Cincinnati Reds lineup shown in the movie features a player with similarities to Joe Morgan. In reality, he did not join the Reds for another two years.[/li]<br />[li]The song "I wanna be where you are" was originally recorded by only Michael Jackson for his 1971 solo album. The other Jackson Brothers were not on the sessions.[/li]<br />[li]The song "Rockin Robin" was actually recorded in 1971, not 1970, and it was Motown, in response to Donny Osmond's solo album, that Michael Jackson got pushed to make a solo album that very same year, entitled "Got to be There."[/li]<br />[li]The song "Dancing Machine" was actually recorded in 1974, not 1976, when the Jackson Five were in the studio before deciding to move on.[/li]<br />[li]Jermaine Jackson got divorced from Hazel Gordy in 1984.[/li]<br />[li]In another scene, Michael is recording "Human Nature" for his album,
Thriller in 1983. In real life, the album was released in 1982.[/li]<br />[li]In the Motown audition scene, They sing James Brown's "I Got the Feelin'". The entire group sings "baby, baby, baby", while in reality it was only Michael singing that part.[/li]<br />[li]In the Motown audition scene, Berry Gordy was not actually in attendance. Instead the audition was videotaped and shown to Gordy at a later time.[/li]<br />[li]During the Motown 25 performance of "Billie Jean", Michael is wearing his sequined glove on his right hand. In real life, during the actual performance, it was on his left hand.[/li]<br />[li]In the scene where The Jacksons are shooting a Pepsi commercial, Michael's hair catches on fire and he falls down the stairs. In real life, Michael was unaware that his hair was on fire as he continued dancing down the stairs.[/li]<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jacksons:_An_American_Dream"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."