ok ok i need to point something out becuz i just realized something...if michael was trying to fake his death (which i think he is) why would he have sooo many people involved with the hoaxed in my theory, the less peopl who know about the " Great Plan" the less chance it gets leaked. you can't get the FBI involved in a hoax. they will not allow you to fake a death and they wont go along with it because its ILLEGAL we have to go from a different perspective because so far you keep saying lkl, tmz, family, fbi, media, friends, TII dancers, Kenny, blah blah are involved in the hoax...i dont see that happening for it to work??
we need to stop thinking that everyone in the worl are involved in this hoax because that can't be possible to work. in order to do the hoax you have to have as little people knowing as you can
and plus why would michael trust news media to go along with a hoax if they are the ones who put him in this horrible situation in the first place?? HELP MY MIND IS GOING CRAZY <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
Thanks for posting this. I dont know, but don't you need to present a valid ID for marriage or for birth registration? I mean if MJ's drivers license had "Joe" in it, how come his marriage contract with LMP and the kids' birth certificates had "Joseph"? And to get an ID with a photo, don't you need to present a birth certificate or some legal document to prove who you are? <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
He made 2 different passports for 2 different names just in case..... in case like that? <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> lol
idk guys he might have 2 citizenships. There is so many ways to mess up with documents.
Im originally from other country, not USA, but on my travel passport they spelled my name wrong, but they still let me in the USA and no one ever questioned that.
So what im trying to say is that one person might think that if Joe comes from Joseph it might be ok to put it in documents. And another person will think its NOT right, but will close their eyes on it, u know?
Im dealing with all that passport renewal thing right now, and u wont believe how carelessly those people work....
P.S. It would be nice to see the paper work that MICHAEL filled out himself when he applied for documents. If he wrote JOE, some person could think its wrong and changed it to Joseph without asking...... or something like that, u got the idea!
It is not illegal to fake your death unless you are doing it for monetary gain. Since Michael's life insurance policies have never been PAID OUT (they were cashed in which you can do this legally while you're still alive), there is no fraud there. If Michael is getting help from the FBI on this, then he is in trouble somehow (death threat, etc) or has a close friend in the FBI, which would bring to mind Marlon wearing the FBI hat.
In the beginning, I felt really good that finally something came out from a gov't agency file JOE which makes it more believable/reliable and legal. The good feeling is because JOE is real and JOSEPH is not which makes the DC unreal - so no death, VERY GOOD.
BUTTTT, when you weigh it with the other documents, example the birth certificates of the children which bears JOSEPH - does that mean the certificates were fake and what is the reason for this. Same with the Marriage Certificate that bears JOSEPH - does that also mean something else.
OR MAYBE, for TOP LEVEL Documents like the FBI, it must be the real one - JOE , and for the other documents JOSEPH will do. <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: --> <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
Michael, come back soon and explain this to us, okay?
ok so call me stupid if you must because i am only 18...but i thought you can choose the middle name of your childrens when they are born. Like i have always thought that the middle didn't have to beYOUR personal middle name as well i just thought it was something the parents always thought...do you know what i am trying to say because its really hard to put into words what is going on in my head lets give ex: say my moms middle name was sharon but she has my middle name down as michelle??...is this making any sense to you?? <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
man this is so confusing!!! <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->
So far as I know he changed his name twice. Joseph to Joe and then back Joe to Joseph or vice versa...hmmm... can´t remember and also do´t know how trustworthy the source is.
Edid: go to Twitter and read all her tweets. I think she´s not a troll. http://twitter.com/ChildByAdoption
"Joe" or "Joseph"???......... I think they are one in the same person here. Both names are in this document <!-- s --><!-- s --> , both seem to be legitimately used and linked to Michael and accepted in his FBI files. If it's just one or the other, than I guess thats what the files would of stated. But it states both names so they must be talking about the same person??
It DOESN'T make his DC invalid - IF he's dead.
If he was dead, it would still be valid, because everyone knows he's the respective person in the DC.
I asked a couple of lawyers about that.
Asked a row of questions - that was the last:
<!-- m -->http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/two-n ... 25272.html<!-- m -->
(One lawyer was inspired and even started to write poetry - sweet <!-- s:-D -->:-D<!-- s:-D -->)
If he ISN'T dead, of course the DC is invalid. But it would also be invalid, if it stated Michael JOE Jackson.
No dead person, no valid DC.
I would just like to know, if the legal consequences would be different...
So, does that actually bring us any further?
But the difference is Legal names have too be on documents such as
Drivers Licenes and Passports.
We know that there are court documents that say both Joe and Joseph
Death certificates have too be full legal names too.
Yes. they do, but for us it doesn't make a real difference.
If he's dead, the DC is still valid.
If he isn't dead, every DC for him is invalid.
Do you see my point?
If Michael came back from the dead, automatically all documents that relate to his death would be invalid!
The difference might be, that he could proove, that he's Michael JOE Jackson, as was stated in most previous official documents, and indeed the REAL Michael Jackson. Nobody would be able to say, the one who claims to be the 'dead' and 'ressurrected' Michael is an imposter.
Maybe that's the reason!?
Or he used this false name to start the rumour (as another member suggested and posted a video about Elvis being alive, false name on the gravestone etc.)
I posted another question on avvo.com about faking one's death.
So far I got only one answer, which suggests I should get a life <!-- s --><!-- s -->
But I was happy to see this answer got three thumbs down <!-- s:P -->:P<!-- s:P -->
<!-- m -->http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/what- ... 79812.html<!-- m -->
I agree that Joe vs. Joseph is solved. It's now clear, IMO, that Joe is the legal middle name, and Joseph the "public" name.
* About documents which showed "Joseph" instead of "Joe" (for example, children's birth certificates) - maybe we haven't seen the real ones, but something made up by the newspapers - I won't disregard this hypothesis, 'cause it's the only explanation I can find at the moment.
* About the DC, I've found some information, hope it can help! <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
If we check the link below (US standard certificate of death), we see it written in the first line: "1. DECEDENT’S LEGAL NAME (Include AKA’s if any) (First, Middle, Last)":
This is great news <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> , all the official documentation is incorrect. May be thats why they were released to prove to believers that he is alive. Maybe thats what the big news of the 21st Dec is all about??? Idk <!-- s:P -->:P<!-- s:P -->
ok so call me stupid if you must because i am only 18...but i thought you can choose the middle name of your childrens when they are born. Like i have always thought that the middle didn't have to beYOUR personal middle name as well i just thought it was something the parents always thought...do you know what i am trying to say because its really hard to put into words what is going on in my head lets give ex: say my moms middle name was sharon but she has my middle name down as michelle??...is this making any sense to you?? <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
man this is so confusing!!! <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->
Yes, in America you can name your child whatever you want. Traditionally many people use the father's last name as the child's last name. Many people pick any name they want for the child's first name and middle name, whether just a name they like, honoring a relative, etc. In this case Joseph and Katherine must have picked Joe or Joseph after Michael's father, but it's not a requirement to pick any name in particular. Michael happened to choose to put his own name in the names of his own kids, but that's also personal choice. I hope this answers your question?
About the Childrens BC's I dont think that matters much. Remember the Anna Nicole Smith case, when she put the wrong mans name as the father? Really, it doesnt mean much.
About the Childrens BC's I dont think that matters much. Remember the Anna Nicole Smith case, when she put the wrong mans name as the father? Really, it doesnt mean much.
We all think that his DC(s) is/are fake, so why can't the BC's from his children be fake too?
I just can't imagine that Michael would show this information to the world.
I wish i could remember where i heard it, but in the first couple of weeks of his "Death" i remember hearing someone say he would most likely come back under a new name.
The way i understood it, because they said he would release new songs, but you wouldn't see HIM on stage, Milli Vanilli springs to mind, he'll be working behind the scenes.
I agree that he has killed off his Stage Name, We need to keep an eye/ear open for any new acts that come out, we'll know if the voice is actually Mike's!!
"Joe" or "Joseph"???......... I think they are one in the same person here. Both names are in this document <!-- s --><!-- s --> , both seem to be legitimately used and linked to Michael and accepted in his FBI files. If it's just one or the other, than I guess thats what the files would of stated. But it states both names so they must be talking about the same person??
Any thoughts?
Your thought is my thought. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> Harvey actually confirmed this on TMZ Live today.
Hmmm...I'm thinking MJ might be working with the FBI??! I've always had this "strange" feeling...LOL! <!-- s --><!-- s --> Anyways, I'm sooooooooooooooooo ecstatic to know about Michael Joe! This is like a great Christmas present! Merry Christmas, Michael Joe! <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
"Joe" or "Joseph"???......... I think they are one in the same person here. Both names are in this document <!-- s --><!-- s --> , both seem to be legitimately used and linked to Michael and accepted in his FBI files. If it's just one or the other, than I guess thats what the files would of stated. But it states both names so they must be talking about the same person??
Any thoughts?
Your thought is my thought. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> Harvey actually confirmed this on TMZ Live today.
Comments
we need to stop thinking that everyone in the worl are involved in this hoax because that can't be possible to work. in order to do the hoax you have to have as little people knowing as you can
and plus why would michael trust news media to go along with a hoax if they are the ones who put him in this horrible situation in the first place?? HELP MY MIND IS GOING CRAZY <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
Marriage Contract (LMP) - JOSEPH
Death Certificate -JOSEPH
Children's Birth Certificate - JOSEPH
MJ Will - JOSEPH
?????
As far as the FBI is concerned, the person MJJ is Michael Joe Jackson and that's the highest authority so weigh in on the name issue so far.
Whats going on here <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
idk guys he might have 2 citizenships. There is so many ways to mess up with documents.
Im originally from other country, not USA, but on my travel passport they spelled my name wrong, but they still let me in the USA and no one ever questioned that.
So what im trying to say is that one person might think that if Joe comes from Joseph it might be ok to put it in documents. And another person will think its NOT right, but will close their eyes on it, u know?
Im dealing with all that passport renewal thing right now, and u wont believe how carelessly those people work....
P.S. It would be nice to see the paper work that MICHAEL filled out himself when he applied for documents. If he wrote JOE, some person could think its wrong and changed it to Joseph without asking...... or something like that, u got the idea!
K.
It is not illegal to fake your death unless you are doing it for monetary gain. Since Michael's life insurance policies have never been PAID OUT (they were cashed in which you can do this legally while you're still alive), there is no fraud there. If Michael is getting help from the FBI on this, then he is in trouble somehow (death threat, etc) or has a close friend in the FBI, which would bring to mind Marlon wearing the FBI hat.
BUTTTT, when you weigh it with the other documents, example the birth certificates of the children which bears JOSEPH - does that mean the certificates were fake and what is the reason for this. Same with the Marriage Certificate that bears JOSEPH - does that also mean something else.
OR MAYBE, for TOP LEVEL Documents like the FBI, it must be the real one - JOE , and for the other documents JOSEPH will do. <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: --> <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
Michael, come back soon and explain this to us, okay?
man this is so confusing!!! <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->
Edid: go to Twitter and read all her tweets. I think she´s not a troll.
http://twitter.com/ChildByAdoption
Any thoughts?
Yes. they do, but for us it doesn't make a real difference.
If he's dead, the DC is still valid.
If he isn't dead, every DC for him is invalid.
Do you see my point?
If Michael came back from the dead, automatically all documents that relate to his death would be invalid!
The difference might be, that he could proove, that he's Michael JOE Jackson, as was stated in most previous official documents, and indeed the REAL Michael Jackson. Nobody would be able to say, the one who claims to be the 'dead' and 'ressurrected' Michael is an imposter.
Maybe that's the reason!?
Or he used this false name to start the rumour (as another member suggested and posted a video about Elvis being alive, false name on the gravestone etc.)
I posted another question on avvo.com about faking one's death.
So far I got only one answer, which suggests I should get a life <!-- s --><!-- s -->
But I was happy to see this answer got three thumbs down <!-- s:P -->:P<!-- s:P -->
<!-- m -->http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/what- ... 79812.html<!-- m -->
* About documents which showed "Joseph" instead of "Joe" (for example, children's birth certificates) - maybe we haven't seen the real ones, but something made up by the newspapers - I won't disregard this hypothesis, 'cause it's the only explanation I can find at the moment.
* About the DC, I've found some information, hope it can help! <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
If we check the link below (US standard certificate of death), we see it written in the first line: "1. DECEDENT’S LEGAL NAME (Include AKA’s if any) (First, Middle, Last)":
http://tinyurl.com/y9oljhn
The DC that we saw didn't show his legal name.
Driver's license - JOE
Passports - JOE
Motown - JOE
Katherine said JOE
Maybe I dreamt about it, but I thought that the very first DC said JOE too????
Yes, in America you can name your child whatever you want. Traditionally many people use the father's last name as the child's last name. Many people pick any name they want for the child's first name and middle name, whether just a name they like, honoring a relative, etc. In this case Joseph and Katherine must have picked Joe or Joseph after Michael's father, but it's not a requirement to pick any name in particular. Michael happened to choose to put his own name in the names of his own kids, but that's also personal choice. I hope this answers your question?
We all think that his DC(s) is/are fake, so why can't the BC's from his children be fake too?
I just can't imagine that Michael would show this information to the world.
The way i understood it, because they said he would release new songs, but you wouldn't see HIM on stage, Milli Vanilli springs to mind, he'll be working behind the scenes.
I agree that he has killed off his Stage Name, We need to keep an eye/ear open for any new acts that come out, we'll know if the voice is actually Mike's!!
Do we have a copy of the MJ/Debbie Rowe marriage document?
What about divorce paperwork for either marriage?
Your thought is my thought. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> Harvey actually confirmed this on TMZ Live today.
Does that make it good or bad news for us then?