TIAI April 11
TS_comments
Posts: 239
<br /><br />It’s now time for the third level! 8-) <br /><br />The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital. And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA? MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?<br /><br />Please do not jump to any quick conclusions on this, and be very careful to remember the following principles of investigation: #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better; #2 once you have a theory, try to debunk your own theory; #3 we are looking for a theory that has at least two different strong points, which nobody can debunk.<br /><br />Let’s also review what has been established so far. Nobody has debunked the main point established in the first level: “… the photo was planned and staged in advance, rather than merely editing MJ’s face into a photo that was actually taken through the ambulance window on 6-25-09.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185}. As always, if you want to try and debunk something, please inform yourself first of what has already been discussed; I will usually ignore questions or objections which are just a repeat, and have already been answered.<br /><br />In the second level, there have been a few strong points in support of FBI involvement; and nobody has debunked any of these strong points {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313461&#p313461}.<br /><br />First and foremost, as in other areas of the hoax, the numerology speaks volumes; Andrea recently had an excellent post on FBI numerology, as well as some Joe/Joseph information {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317514&#p317514}. <br /><br />The Elvis connection is another strong point in support of MJ having FBI help, and explains a lot on how this hoax could be pulled off successfully with LAFD and other government entities involved {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=314370&#p314370; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313872&#p313872; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313381&#p313381}.<br /><br /><br />Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial! “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year. Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.” {http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams}.<br /><br />Last and maybe least—but still a big clue, is Marlon wearing the FBI cap on more than one occasion<br />{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1000#p320865; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6456&start=0#p103786}.<br /><br />In spite of the fact that nobody has debunked any of the above points, there have been a couple of general questions or objections to FBI involvement—including but not limited to who oversees the FBI {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1050#p321369}. And there were several good replies <br />{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321814; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321843; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321890; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321894; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1100#p322044}.<br /><br />There were also questions about why, if the FBI is involved, would there be any numerology and other clues—wouldn’t the FBI do the fake death so well, that nobody would know a thing? This is a very good question; but there are good answers. First of all, we know that Elvis had government help; and we also know that he used numerology and other clues.<br /><br />But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment. “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment}.<br /><br />If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment. However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment. If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.<br /><br />The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it. <br /><br />On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital). If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.
Comments
So thanks for a new post TS and I will read it now and do my best to participate in the discussion. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
Anyways, I'm in a hurry, so for now I've read through most of it, I wasn't able to click the links so I'll come back later.
But, in my opinion, I believe that there was someone/something in the ambulance, but not Michael, whether it be a double or a dummy, im not sure. The ambulance picture was definitely photoshopped but as we've stated many times before, that was taken before June 25th so it doesn't really matter with this topic. If the paramedic's aren't in on it, I think they would know it's a dummy, I mean they've all probably had plenty experience with being up close with bodies like that, so wouldn't they realize that it was a dummy, especially since they would most likely have been checking the pulse and seeing if he was breathing or not? Also, if they're not in on it and it was a double, then that probably would explain why it doesn't look like Michael, because every double that we know of looks different than Michael in a distinct way. But there might be doubles that we don't even know exist because of their extreme resemblance to Michael, for example, 'Barry Shaw', so maybe it could have been one of them. I highly doubt it was the real Michael, because wasn't he already on his way to the "--airport........i mean hospital". I'm not really sure about the FBI thing yet, I didn't read enough into the end of the post, so, I'll be back later to re-read this & I really want to hear everyone else's responses.
P.S. I find it interesting that you used a picture of Tito, Marlon & Jermaine, of course because Marlon has the FBI hat, but also there's the whole twitter thing going on with those 3. Jermaine is saying Marlon's twitter is fake, 'Marlon' is saying it's really him (on twitter), and Tito is saying it's him. Might not be done on purpose, but it's still interesting.
Forensic science rules it out. Altering the temp of the room would not confuse the coroner. Body core temp is only one of many factors used to determine time of death and when it is, room temperature at the scene is automatically plugged into the formula.
<!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm<!-- m -->
Rigor, pressure within the eye, appearance of the eye, blood pooling, and other little things like stomach contents and their condition are all used to determine time of death. Unless someone actually did die at Carrolwood on the morning of 6/25/09 (which the numerology proves is statistically unlikely), a corpse could not be used to fool anyone.
Here's a good pdf file about it:
<!-- m -->http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicin ... edeath.pdf<!-- m -->
a quote from the opening of the article:
This explains a lot about a lot of stuff I have been wondering about. I never thought staging a death could be seen as entrapment. It's providing oppurtunity, but it's not forcing anyone to commit a crime right? But I guess safety for all.
For me this explains the numerous hack attempts on this forum and the old ones as well, it also explains the importance of TMZ's role and your posts and I now understand why we need to come to a theory that would hold up in court. It might really have to hold up in court, lol. This is also why it really should hit the media.
This sting operation is very interesting, but it fries my brain at the moment. I will think about the dummy/double/corpse/air in the ambulance first.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
I LOVE your thinking smiley!
@MJhasSpoken - what is COH?
but remember that the autopsy report is false, the person who possibly died an autopsy was made law and of course that is not published, so it took so long to publish results, or maybe not if this person already had a medical history with the disease he had and there was no autopsy. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
If so, I guess until we have everything assembled, will be very difficult for Michael to return, so we are your soldiers of love! We have the role to help you with this, and if we want to see Michael soon have to work hard in the coming months.
Oh, TS ... I think I'm a little late with this conclusion, but I think it's clearer now. <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->
In relation to what came to UCLA, I get the theory of a double, which was used as prevention, if something went wrong. For me that was the same person that was seen in the garden and followed the ambulance and looks much like the spitting image of TII.
It's a MMORPG called City of Heroes...everytime you get experience points it goes towards your leveling up and you get to choose new powers. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
Also thinking about this whole FBI thing and what info the FBI would need from MJ, maybe it has to do with the Biggie case.
Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:11 pm
Gotta go out now, but I'll be back...thanks TS. You're my hero. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
That was a quotation that TS made from the FBI article about the fake funerals.
Haven't had time to reread all the links. I'll get on that soon.
I find it unbelievable to an extent that almost 2 years later NOT one of them has said anything to my knowledge. Maybe that is because this type of thing has happened before when a celeb dies, hoaxes are more of a non real theory to them. We are looney people to believe such a thing right? lol <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> They (officials) are really that blind, deaf and dumb? <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
<!-- m -->http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/micha ... psy-report<!-- m -->
Autopsy Report pages 1-4 show who the sources were for Elissa Fleak's Investigation and how it went down. So according to the report on page 2:
Information Sources:
1. Detective W Porche, LAPD-West Los Angeles Division
2. Detective S. Smith, LAPD-Robbery Homicide Division
3. UCLA Medical Center, medical record #397-5944
The Investigation section shows how E. Fleak was assigned to the case and by whom. Lieutenant F. Corral assigned the death investigation. E. Fleak arrived at UCLA Medical Center along with Assistant Chief E. Winters and Forensic Attendant A. Perez. Upon E. Fleak's completion of the body examination at the hospital, the body was transported by the Los Angeles Sheriffs Department-Air Bureau to the Coroners Forensic Science Center. The body was escorted by Forensic Attendant Perez.
Assistant Chief E. Winter and E. Fleak left the hospital and went to Michael's home. E. Fleak performed a scene investigation. After that was done they left and went back to the Coroners Forensic Science Center.
Now so far that is 3 people investigating and looking at the body. That is not including the 2 detectives or the UCLA doctor who called Time of Death. That is Dr. Richelle Cooper. Plus the other ER personnel who helped Dr. Cooper, also the Lieutenant who assigned the case to E. Fleaks. That so far is alot of people who would need to be in on the hoax for it to work, that is IF there was no body/dummy/nothing. I won't entertain the idea of MJ being the body yet.
Official General Prelim Discussion thread
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Then you have the witness list (see thread link above) of who testified at the pre-lim in regards to Dr. Cooper and the paramedics that showed up that day and transported the body to the hospital. Now after the jury questionnaire has been released, (see link below) it shows the full potential witness list. All 3 of the paramedics are confirmed. These are the ones who showed up that day. Richard Senneff FF/PM, Martin Blount FF/PM and Jeffrey Mills Fire Captain. That is even more people who would have to be in on the hoax. This is getting to be way to many and doesn't fall into the category of the fewer in on it the better.
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I have also already wrote about the paramedics many times and who I believe is the 1 person from LAFD who knows about the hoax (at least in the beginning). I am sure most if not all the paramedics at Fire Station #71 know NOW especially with people like Tristan visiting them and point blank asking them if they know. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
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Something that I had noticed but didn't comment before on it. It's the wording TMZ chose for the descriptor of the unrecognizable MJ in the ambulance. IT instead of HE. Is that a Freudian slip (on purpose clue?) to tell us IT (dummy for the fake pic/dead corpse?) was in the ambulance and not a he (MJ)?
This is a long post of mine (see below) but I think it is the best one to show my train of thought putting all the pieces together on the who was in the ambulance, who is involved from where, etc. I was responding to mjsmyheart and her(?) theory of the #71 ambulance paramedics being FBI also.
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My post regarding my thoughts on WHO went to the hospital on 6/25/2009.
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I am re-posting a previous comment of mine. This is an article that was written and displayed on the UCLA website regarding how everyone worked together and who did what on 6/25/2009. This explains why there wouldn't really need to be anyone from UCLA in on the hoax. I am not saying that no one was involved in the hoax but IF anyone from there, it would be most likely only 1 or 2 at the most, on a need to know type basis.
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So this is already a very long post so I will stop now. If I have come up with at least 2 strong points whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, it hasn't been acknowledge by anyone nor has anyone really posted solid proof debunking any of my theories. I have a question mark hanging over my head right now on what or IF any of what I wrote is correct or wrong. <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: --> <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
However, is the helicopter "moving" video legit then?
Or the MJ "jumping out of the coroners's van"?
And, IF the ambo's are in, and UCLA staff in, why chance getting caught by then "exiting" stage left?
Hypothectically, IF both are in on it, why would MJ even wait til June 25th to make his "getaway"? Stage was set to leave whenever he wanted, "in the dead of night", when noone even knew or cared.
Seems somewhat risky for parties involved to have MJ's "cover" blown. Dummy, Double or whatever, having these parties involved and covering there would be no need to actually go to hospital. What if "someone" saw him alive or something, I am sure the press were probably hiding in stairwells and such just to get a shot of anything "newsworthy".
Leads me to beLIEve 1 or 3 ambo's were in on it and MJ was drinking rita's wherever.
But, "michael was already at airport" quote debunks he was "long gone". So perhaps MJ waited til June 25th to leave. But why risk getting caught by going to hospital? MJ was "unrecognizable" so the ER staff and the few choosen to work on him can pass it off as DEAD.
So now ambo's,staff and FBI are in on it by this scenario so....Why would the FBI even allow MJ to go to UCLA? Too much risk, no reward. Even if the trouble WAS made to pull of the haox with help, the very chance, with every media present seems illogical to have MJ at UCLA. The hoax would of died right there.
Marlon isn't in the FBI hat for nothing, that's for sure but I'm still trying to figure out why he would wear it. It must be a message he wanted photographed and documented. And there's that blue track suit again! I think it was said by Larry Geller that Elvis had one of those suits too the night before he "left"... <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> "Blue Gangsta's" <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
I'll get back to you all because I want to try and show evidence that there was no body transported to the hospital. I'm working on it.
I like what TS says here:
Thank you for bringing this up. Didn't Charles Thomson say that he requested a copy of the FBI files? I have always wondered why those reports came out after June 25, 2009 and not before. It seems pretty significant in the timing.
I also agree - I think all of the EMT personnel would have to be involved. They would be able to spot something suspicious and yet they have all remained really quiet about that day - except what we are supposed to read (they didn't recognize him,etc).
I do think there was a body in that ambulance but I don't think it was Michael. I'm still not ruling out a real body but how did they time the death? They would have had to get someone who died at the right time. I struggle to believe this. So, maybe a cadaver.
My opinion is that a corpse of another man was in the ambulance, not MJ, because paramedics didn't recognize him.
Now I think that LAFD is involved but not to the level of paramedics who were at the site, but only on a higher lever, to keep as low as possible the number of the people who are in.And also because there was to be a trial and the paramedics were to testify under oath so they cannot lie (at least in theory), so that means they can not be in.
But if there was a real corpse it's not absolutely necesary UCLA and the coroner to be in....IDK
Not really because the coroner has to be in on it already so a real body going through ucla is more trouble and risk then its worth.
Paramedics are in on it, coroner is in on it... no one at ucla besides Dr. Cooper needs to know a thing. If they see anything its a dummy being wisked by on a stretcher surrounded by bodyguards. Who's gonna know the difference?
If they used a real body they'd also have to account for it looking nothing like MJ should anyone unauthorized happen to sneak a peak; at ucla AND at the morgue. The dummy they could wrap in the sheet and send to the coroners... who's already in on it.. and then sneak away from the scene out the back door at some later hour.
A real body remains around as a stand in for the "real" body of the allegedly dead MJ. It would really have to be secured and guarded as if it was the real body. That's a huge risk for the wrong someone to stumble upon, working still under the assumption that as few as possible in on the hoax the better.
A real body leaves a physical evidence trail.
No body allows them to control all the information and makes accurate leaks about it impossible.