<br />@Aussie...but since Jesus is Michael and Michael is the archangel, isn't he an angel?<br />
<br /><br />Leader of the angel does not automatically have to mean angel.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
<br />bible also makes pretty clear that jesus is seperate from god and is gods son a different and subordinate entity to GOD - GODS humble servent and not GOD.<br /><br />- this is my son, the beloved, who i have approved....<br />- the father is greater than i...<br />- what I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me...<br />- As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father...<br />
<br /><br />Agree to disagree quite the contrary actually!<br /><br />Jesus as God -bible verses:<br /><br />[size=8pt]Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”<br /><br />Isaiah 9:6- For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.<br /><br />Isaiah 43:10,11- “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”<br /><br />Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)<br /><br />John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)<br /><br />John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,<br /><br />John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.<br /><br />John 8:24 -“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He(this is a direct reference to Exodus 3:14), you will die in your sins.”<br /><br />John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM(again, a direct reference to Exodus 3:14),.”<br /><br />John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”<br /><br />John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM (again, a direct reference to Exodus 3:14) the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”<br /><br />John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”<br /><br />John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”<br /><br />Acts 20:28- Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.<br /><br />Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)<br /><br />Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.<br /><br />1 Timothy 3:16- And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.<br /><br />Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ<br /><br />Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”<br /><br />Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”<br /><br />Revelation 22:13- “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”[/size]<br /><br />"Christ is the Lord" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ-8jYpa1-o<br /><br />It is essential to the whole salvation message that Jesus was both 100% human and 100% God. <br />God was the only one who could take all mankind's sin away; this has to do with the original sin.<br />But yes, Jesus is the Son, and not the Father (separate entities in the trinity) but still they are one.<br /><br />Jesus had to be 100% pure, the perfect sacrifice. That is why he had to be God; it is why a virgin gave birth to Jesus. That way the curse of the original sin was broken.<br /><br />It was also essential for Jesus to be 100% human as it was the first human (Adam) who brought sin into mankind in the first place (Genesis 3). Jesus, who is also referred to as the second Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45-47) came to set things right again (what Adam and Eve "screwed up", so to speak (1 Corinthians 15:22)).<br /><br />God is 100% pure, he is Holy. That is why we could not have a relationship with Him before Jesus’ sacrifice. God cannot have a relationship with someone who is not 100% pure, that is why he came down (Emanuel, God with us - Matthew 1:23) and sacrificed his only son (who is one with God) and took ALL sin away. If we believe in Jesus as our God and Savior (Rom 10:9) and receive this amazing gift of LOVE, we can have fellowship with God once again (just like in Eden) and God does not see sin in us anymore because we are IN Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 3:28, Romans 6:11, Romans 8:1, Romans 12:5, 2 Corinthians 5:19 etc, etc…).<br /> <br />Salvation came to all mankind through faith in Jesus, and faith alone, not deeds. I just have to add party/ here!<br /><br />However… I do feel sorry for everyone who does not want to receive this gift of LOVE or those who does not understand it (John 3:27).<br /><br />1 Corinthians 1:18- For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.<br />
@ johno. yes humbly completely agree to disagree. with all respect the scriptues quoted do not convince me god and jesus are one.<br /><br />jesus is gods most precious son—and for good reason. He is called “the firstborn of all creation,” for he was God’s first creation. (Colossians 1:15) there is something else that makes this son special. he is the “only-begotten son.” (John 3:16) meaning that Jesus is the only one directly created by god. jesus is also the only one whom god used when He created all other things. (Colossians 1:16) then, too, Jesus is called “the word.” (John 1:14) this tells us that he spoke for God, no doubt delivering messages and instructions to the father’s other sons, both spirit and human.<br /> <br />some believe the son is equal to god. that isnt what the bible teaches. as per above, the son was created. obviously, then, he had a beginning, where god has no beginning or end. very hard for mortal humans to grasp the concept, i know. see psalm 90:2. the only-begotten son never even considered trying to be equal to his father. bible clearly shows that the father is greater than the Son. (John 14:28; 1 Corinthians 11:3) God / yaweh / jah alone is “God Almighty.” (Genesis 17:1) therefore, he has no equal and is also not jesus.<br /><br />also John 17.4,5 indicates that jesus has a special relationship with god. "i have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. So now you, father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.<br /><br />EDIT: regarding your comment on a perfect sacrifice. jesus not god was this perfect sacrifice and he was suitable to be the 'last adam' as he was the image of god. god / yaweh / jah and his firstborn Son enjoyed close association for billions of years—long before the heavens and the earth were created. (John 3:35; 14:31) this son was just like his father. that is why the bible refers to the son as “the image of the invisible God.” (Colossians 1:15) like a human son may closely resemble his father in various ways, this heavenly son reflected his father’s qualities and personality.<br /> <br />god's only-begotten son willingly left heaven and came down to earth to live as a human. god performed a miracle. he transferred the life of his firstborn son from heaven to the womb of mary. no human father was involved. mary thus gave birth to a perfect son and named him Jesus.—Luke 1:30-35.<br /><br />but it looks like you have your scriptures and i have mine, so again, agree to respectfully disagree. i am just happy that so many of us here are bible minded. i guess that is the silver lining. it is wonderful to see that there are still spiritually minded individuals in the world amongst such wickedness. i am sure that god sees that and understands that as imperfect humans we are prone to misinterpret or not fully understand the holy word.<br /><br />peace and love to you all.
Just a little comment on those videos about "the greatest story ..." . Dionysus was not an ancient Greek version of Jesus. He is more like god of wine, spirits, and wild parties to a point which in now days is called alcoholism. Not sure how much of the rest in that video is true. Not going to dig about other ancient gods.
That video I didn't know how to embed the other day.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />From what I understand the fire lits by itself, after the patriarch of Jerusalem says some prayers. It doesn't lit when a pope says those prayers, so the western world didn't know this until youtube become a big deal. It is a resurrection proof, because it happens on Easter.
<br />bible also makes pretty clear that jesus is seperate from god and is gods son a different and subordinate entity to GOD - GODS humble servent and not GOD.<br /><br />- this is my son, the beloved, who i have approved....<br />- the father is greater than i...<br />- what I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me...<br />- As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father...<br />
<br /><br />Agree to disagree quite the contrary actually!<br /><br />Jesus as God -bible verses:<br /><br />[size=8pt]Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”<br /><br />Isaiah 9:6- For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.<br /><br />Isaiah 43:10,11- “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”<br /><br />Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)<br /><br />John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)<br /><br />John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,<br /><br />John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.<br /><br />John 8:24 -“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He(this is a direct reference to Exodus 3:14), you will die in your sins.”<br /><br />John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM(again, a direct reference to Exodus 3:14),.”<br /><br />John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”<br /><br />John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM (again, a direct reference to Exodus 3:14) the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”<br /><br />John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”<br /><br />John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”<br /><br />Acts 20:28- Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.<br /><br />Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)<br /><br />Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.<br /><br />1 Timothy 3:16- And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.<br /><br />Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ<br /><br />Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”<br /><br />Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”<br /><br />Revelation 22:13- “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”[/size]<br /><br />"Christ is the Lord" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ-8jYpa1-o<br /><br />It is essential to the whole salvation message that Jesus was both 100% human and 100% God. <br />God was the only one who could take all mankind's sin away; this has to do with the original sin.<br />But yes, Jesus is the Son, and not the Father (separate entities in the trinity) but still they are one.<br /><br />Jesus had to be 100% pure, the perfect sacrifice. That is why he had to be God; it is why a virgin gave birth to Jesus. That way the curse of the original sin was broken.<br /><br />It was also essential for Jesus to be 100% human as it was the first human (Adam) who brought sin into mankind in the first place (Genesis 3). Jesus, who is also referred to as the second Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45-47) came to set things right again (what Adam and Eve "screwed up", so to speak (1 Corinthians 15:22)).<br /><br />God is 100% pure, he is Holy. That is why we could not have a relationship with Him before Jesus’ sacrifice. God cannot have a relationship with someone who is not 100% pure, that is why he came down (Emanuel, God with us - Matthew 1:23) and sacrificed his only son (who is one with God) and took ALL sin away. If we believe in Jesus as our God and Savior (Rom 10:9) and receive this amazing gift of LOVE, we can have fellowship with God once again (just like in Eden) and God does not see sin in us anymore because we are IN Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 3:28, Romans 6:11, Romans 8:1, Romans 12:5, 2 Corinthians 5:19 etc, etc…).<br /> <br />Salvation came to all mankind through faith in Jesus, and faith alone, not deeds. I just have to add party/ here!<br /><br />However… I do feel sorry for everyone who does not want to receive this gift of LOVE or those who does not understand it (John 3:27).<br /><br />1 Corinthians 1:18- For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.<br /> <br />
<br /><br />Great post! I agree! Jesus is the only man to have been 200%: 100% man and 100% God, thus Son of Man and Son of God titles He has/had. That and the Godhead exists as a Trinity: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, all God but three separate individuals part of the Godhead. <br /><br />http://www.biblehelp.org/reference_1.htm<br /><br />http://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html
<br />@ johno. yes humbly completely agree to disagree. with all respect the scriptues quoted do not convince me god and jesus are one.<br />
<br /><br />It is okay to not agree all the time! beerchug But I don't think it can be any clearer actually:<br /><br />Jesus himself said that - My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”<br />Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him … - John 10:29-31<br /><br />Why did they want to stone him? Because:<br /><br /> “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” - John 10:33<br /> <br />You have to either ignore or rewrite a whole lot of scriptures (please refer to my last post) to ignore the obvious. <br />I know that the Jehovah’s are using an slightly different, edited version (The New World Translation) of the bible that differs from the traditional/original translations. <br />Again, this is why <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics">Hermeneutics</a>; and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exegesis">Exegesis</a>; is so important… Please note that TS have mostly refereed to either NIV or the King James version, I prefer TNIV (updated version of NIV) as it is the most hermeneutically and exegetically correct version.<br /><br />I have to ask you. Are you a Jehovah’s?<br /><br />I think that you are confusing the separate entities (the trinity) and the wholeness of God....<br />If Jesus was not God, then he is not part of the trinity either, thus there is NO salvation through faith alone, no precious gift and God did NOT sacrifice himself for us.<br /><br />And this is how to apply the proper Hermeneutics and Exegesis:<br /><br />The Deity of Christ - http://carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity<br /><br />A. Jesus is God in flesh (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14). See also John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8 <br /><br />i. 1 John 4:2-3: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." <br /><br />a.The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. <br /><br />b. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. <br /><br />ii. John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins." <br /><br />iii. Jesus said that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58, where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." He was claiming the divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14. <br /><br />a. The Greek Septuagint is the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek, done by Jews around 250 B.C. They translated Exodus 3:14 as 'ego eimi' "I AM".) <br /><br />B. Jesus is the proper object of faith <br /><br />i. It is not simply enough to have faith. Faith is only as valid as the person in whom you put it. You must put your faith in the proper person. Cults have false objects of faith (false gods); therefore, their faith is useless -- no matter how sincere they are. <br /><br />ii. If you put your faith in a guru, a philosopher, or a past teacher (and not Jesus) to save you from your sins on Judgment Day, then you will be in a lot of trouble, no matter how sincere or strong your faith is. You might have great faith, but so what? Faith in something false has the same effect as no faith at all. <br /><br />C. The Doctrine of the deity of Christ includes: <br /><br />i. The Trinity - There is one God who exists in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all coeternal and of the same nature. <br /><br />ii. Monotheism - There is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8 ). Mormons believe that many gods exist, though they serve and worship only one. Therefore, they are polytheists which excludes them from the camp of Christianity. <br /><br />D. The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man. <br /><br />i. The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the world and it is only through Jesus' sacrifice that anyone can be saved. <br /><br />ii. As God - Only a perfect sacrifice to God is able to cleanse us from our sins. This is why Jesus, who is God in flesh, died for us. <br /><br />a. He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that. <br /><br />iii. As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man. <br /><br />a. As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5). <br /><br />E. This means that the Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Islam, etc., are outside of Christianity.<br /><br /><br />I totally respect your views and interpretation, just showing what I have learned through my years of theological studies, thus why I do not agree.<br />With LOVE. bearhug
<br /><br />jesus is gods most precious son—and for good reason. He is called “the firstborn of all creation,” for he was God’s first creation. (Colossians 1:15) there is something else that makes this son special. he is the “only-begotten son.” (John 3:16) meaning that Jesus is the only one directly created by god. jesus is also the only one whom god used when He created all other things. (Colossians 1:16) then, too, Jesus is called “the word.” (John 1:14) this tells us that he spoke for God, no doubt delivering messages and instructions to the father’s other sons, both spirit and human.<br /> <br />some believe the son is equal to god. that isnt what the bible teaches. as per above, the son was created. obviously, then, he had a beginning, where god has no beginning or end. very hard for mortal humans to grasp the concept, i know. see psalm 90:2. the only-begotten son never even considered trying to be equal to his father. bible clearly shows that the father is greater than the Son. (John 14:28; 1 Corinthians 11:3) God / yaweh / jah alone is “God Almighty.” (Genesis 17:1) therefore, he has no equal and is also not jesus.<br /><br />also John 17.4,5 indicates that jesus has a special relationship with god. "i have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. So now you, father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />
@ johno. thank you for taking the time to site these scriptures for me. i do not believe and will never believe in the trinity. i respect you have studied theology. i too have studied for many many years, multiple religions and will continue in my studies.<br /><br />yes, we dont all have to agree all the time. you say it couldnt be clearer. i guess, that is your opinion from looking at the scriptures through the perspective of the trinity. for me the father and son being seperate, and looking at the scriptures from this perspective, personally the scriptures couldnt be any clearer.<br /><br />although we will ultimately and forever disagree, i have enjoyed this discussion with you<br /><br />love and peace.<br /><br /><br />edit: JWs are most certaily not outside of christianity. i can say this as i am a JW. though we believe the father and son are seperate, we endeavour to emulate christ and put on the christlike personality daily. i can assure you we love jesus and though sinners (as we all are) aim to please god by being as christlike as possible. we respect the ransom and understand that the only way to have a relationship with god is thru jesus. also aknowlege that salvation is only possible by accepting christ. not being a smarty pants here, just clearing up any misconception that we are not christian. this clarification for me personally is very important. there are many readers of this thread and i would hate for any of them to think that JWs are not christian based on what has been read here.<br />
<br />@ johno. thank you for taking the time to site these scriptures for me. i do not believe and will never believe in the trinity. i respect you have studied theology. i too have studied for many many years, multiple religions and will continue in my studies.<br /><br />yes, we dont all have to agree all the time. you say it couldnt be clearer. i guess, that is your opinion from looking at the scriptures through the perspective of the trinity. for me the father and son being seperate, and looking at the scriptures from this perspective, personally the scriptures couldnt be any clearer.<br /><br />although we will ultimately and forever disagree, i have enjoyed this discussion with you<br /><br />love and peace.<br /><br /><br />edit: JWs are most certaily not outside of christianity. i can say this as i am a JW. though we believe the father and son are seperate, we endeavour to emulate christ and put on the christlike personality daily. i can assure you we love jesus and though sinners (as we all are) aim to please god by being as christlike as possible. we respect the ransom and understand that the only way to have a relationship with god is thru jesus. also aknowlege that salvation is only possible by accepting christ. not being a smarty pants here, just clearing up any misconception that we are not christian. this clarification for me personally is very important. there are many readers of this thread and i would hate for any of them to think that JWs are not christian based on what has been read here.<br /><br />
<br /><br />Yes, I believe this discussion could go on and on and on... <br /><br />I have stated my opinion and explained it pretty clearly so there is no need for any further discussion I guess... <br />We will never agree, only agree to disagree.<br /><br />bearhug<br /><br />Questions: <br /><br />As a JWs, what is your view when it come to "the watchtower"?<br />What is your view when it comes to the Holy Spirit? As I understand it you do not believe in spiritual baptism?<br /><br />And what is the JWs view when it comes to someone like me?<br />I believe myself to be saved through faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, also I am baptized in the Holy Spirit, I speak in tongues etc.<br /><br />In the views of the JWs, what does this make me in an eternal perspective, so to speak?..<br /><br />With LOVE
@johno - i cant answer these questions today due to time constraints. but will endeavour to answer your questions.<br /><br />i will do this via PM, as you are asking specific questions about JWs and while i am happy to answer, i want to ensure that no one feels that a) i am being to preachy about JW beliefs (as up until this point it has been a discussion abt bible) or b) that i am using this thread as a soapbox to broadcast JW beliefs. <br /><br />i am happy to answer your questions and when i have more time will send you a PM.<br /><br /><br />although we see things differently, i really do respect the adult manner in which we have been able to converse about the scriptures<br /> <br />bearhug bearhug bearhug <br /><br />therefore hugs back to you my friend.<br />
@ illusion. yeah it is great. i have enjoyed it too.<br /><br />this thread is a great display of respect amongst MJ believers. we are to be applauded and deserve a pat on the back. for a discussion about religion it has been for the most part very civil<br /><br />
@ Australian MJ BeLIEver - Of course! I think that it is important to stand up for what we believe and also to support it (with whether arguments we have). <br />But always with respect and LOVE for one another!<br /><br />bearhug<br /><br />I think that when it is not coming from a place of love any longer, then it is time to stop...
I am not part of any religion, nor have I ever studied the various religions. All I have done the last couple of months is look at what the Bible says. And to me the Bible clearly says:<br /><br />-Jesus was known as THE archangel (Michael) before taking on a human form and Jesus is God (part of the Godhead Father/Son/Spirit)<br /><br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20454.msg374991#msg374991<br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20454.msg375066#msg375066<br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20454.msg375262#msg375262<br /><br /><br />-The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are 3 different existences with different thoughts, actions and decisions and Jesus is an angel of God:<br /><br />The Bible clearly states that the Son is also God. The most simple explanation I can think of is that because my parents are white, I am white. My friend is black, because her parents are black. The Son is God, because his Father is God. No one else is, because he is the only begotten Son of God. He inherited his divinity from his Father. "Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." (John 8:19) "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30) So Jesus clearly states that he is equal to his Father, that he is God. He would not say that if it weren't true, otherwise he would be a sinner (1st and 2nd commandment) and we all know that he was without sin until he took unto him the sins of mankind.<br /><br />On the other hand, Jesus could not answer everything: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matthew 24:36) That clearly indicates that they have seperate thoughts and seperate forms. So are they one as in one entity/person? No, that is clearly not what the Bible says. What the Bible says is that they are one as in united, they 'agree in one'.<br /><br />Jesus is referred to as angel in the Bible, and the Bible tells us that he is archangel Michael. Does that mean Jesus is an angel too? Sure, why not? An angel is "A typically benevolent celestial being that acts as an intermediary between heaven and earth" or a representation of God, The Father. His created angels represent the Father on earth and deliver His messages, Jesus also has been a representation of His Father on earth, a mediator between us and the Father. But he also is the ARCH angel, thus leader. Not because he had better grades or kissed God's butt, but because he is His Son. So I see really no problem in Jesus being called an Angel.<br /><br /><br />-The Son was not created, but begotten.<br /><br />Colossians 1:15 Might translate "the firstborn of all creation", but that does not mean that that is what the original scripture said or meant. If you look at the Greek text: http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/passage.aspx?q=Colossians+1:15&t=kjv you can see that there is no word in there for 'of'. This means that the original scripture could have easily meant "The firstborn before all creation." This is how the Dutch modern translation has translated it and I think it is closer to the truth, since the Bible already has told us that the Son was begotten, thus not created.<br /><br /><br />I am not saying I am interpretating everything right, but I do think that there is not one religion on earth that has interpretated the Bible completely right. Instead of going by what the religions tell us, we should study the scriptures themselves. "The majority is usually wrong", to quote my Bible teacher. And the Bible does say that the whole world is deceived: "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Revelation 12:9)<br /><br /><br />Many Christians celebrate Christmas at 12/25. Scripture tells us Jesus was born somewhere between spring and autumn, because "shepherds were abiding in the field". They usually don't do that in winter. Many Christians observe Sunday as God's Holy day, the Sabbath, it is not. Saturday is Sabbath, and that is clear in the scriptures as well, since we know Jesus was crucified on a Friday, and the wanted to take the bodies (His and that of the two criminals next to him) down that day, because it was 'already Friday afternoon and it would soon be Sabbath". If Sabbath was on a Sunday, they could have taken down the bodies the next day. Those are only a few things where the majority is wrong. That can only mean that there is much more.<br />
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
<br /><br />Many Christians celebrate Christmas at 12/25. Scripture tells us Jesus was born somewhere between spring and autumn, because "shepherds were abiding in the field". They usually don't do that in winter. Many Christians observe Sunday as God's Holy day, the Sabbath, it is not. Saturday is Sabbath, and that is clear in the scriptures as well, since we know Jesus was crucified on a Friday, and the wanted to take the bodies (His and that of the two criminals next to him) down that day, because it was 'already Friday afternoon and it would soon be Sabbath". If Sabbath was on a Sunday, they could have taken down the bodies the next day. Those are only a few things where the majority is wrong. That can only mean that there is much more.<br /> <br />
<br /><br />100% spot on abt both points re: xmas and sabbath. as well as the ultimate point of, if the majority are wrong about these minor points what even more important points are they missing...<br /><br />sad. most people gobble up whatever they have been taught. we need to keep 'making the truth our own' and 'testing our faith' by continual study of gods word.
I believe myself to be saved through faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, also I am baptized in the Holy Spirit, I speak in tongues etc.
<br />Me too jono. That was the day that I woke up. Like stepping from the dark into the light. It has nothing to do with religion. Religion is man's attempt to please God. It never can or will. Being born again is being supernaturally birthed into the kingdom of God by blood and water, the blood of Jesus, the washing of the water of the word of God.<br /><br />Revelations12:11<br />And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
I believe myself to be saved through faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, also I am baptized in the Holy Spirit, I speak in tongues etc.
<br />Me too jono. That was the day that I woke up. Like stepping from the dark into the light. It has nothing to do with religion. Religion is man's attempt to please God. It never can or will. Being born again is being supernaturally birthed into the kingdom of God by blood and water, the blood of Jesus, the washing of the water of the word of God.<br /><br />Revelations12:11<br />And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.<br />
<br /><br />Agreed. Good post. Me neither consider myself being part of any religion, as you said; religion is man-made and something that does not please God.<br /><br />Psalm 40:6-11 - Sacrifice and offering you did not desire— but my ears you have opened— burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. Then I said, “Here I am, I have come— it is written about me in the scroll. I desire to do your will, my God; your law is within my heart.” <br /><br />John 4:21-23 - Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”<br /> <br />God is all about relationship, he wants to have fellowship with us. That is why he sent Jesus, to take all our sin away so that we can walk with Him once again. He does not want self-righteousness! Self-righteousness is pride, believing we can save ourselves through good deeds. No, all the glory and honor belongs to God and God alone.<br /><br />Eph 2:8-9 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.<br /><br />Jesus' biggest problem, when here on earth, were the Pharisees, the most religious people to date. They knew all the rules (even created complementary rules), all the scriptures, all the procedures and all the prayers; still they did not recognize Him (the Word) when he stood right before them! Quite the contrary... They wanted Him crucified!<br /><br />Read Matthew 23:1-36<br />
I just caught up on 4/5 pages, since the trial drama is winding down. Souza I find it interesting that from an atheist position you are now jumping into the Biblical worldview (well maybe you're just exploring). I was thoroughly immersed in Bible and church involvement from almost birth, also 3 years Bible college. My last 10/12 years have led me the opposite direction holding those things more loosely. I started asking questions that troubled me, exploring the many answers on the internet. I still highly regard the Bible but now believe there is a lot more to understanding it than mere Bible study, which keeps one in a box of circular reasoning IMO. I've gone into much detail on this and reasons elsewhere so I won't repeat myself. Like a deck of cards, much has come tumbling down, and I will never be locked into that belief system again. It's funny how I always was taught that Jehovah's Witnesses were a cult, but then in my own re-examining of Scriptures leaving no stone unturned, outside church thinking, before even studying about MJ, I was discovering that some things the JW's teach--I agreed with, also some 7th Day Adventist teaching, etc. <br /><br />Christians can be so dogmatic, get into libraries full of arguments over what the Bible teaches, and how to interpret things. Meanwhile history shows-- the love was lost, and much emotional and bloody abuse prevailed over who was right and who wrong. According to literal understanding of Jesus' words the vast majority of mankind, I'm guessing 9/10 out of 12 billion that have ever lived will be screaming in burning flames forever after they die. Makes a life sentence here nothing. The majority of those are under the magical age of accountability about 5 years of age (the church has rationalized), and they get a free pass to heaven. It's all semantics, because the Bible doesn't really teach that at all. All will be saved, we are all loved and precious. Michael is never teaching that we have to trust in Jesus to go to heaven, but rather that ALL people are loved by God and him, and that love will bring healing to the planet.<br /><br /> hesouttamylife <br />
This thread feels so right to me. I have always believed that there are real angels amongst us and that Michael Jackson is truly one of them. Just from his own history the parallels are undeniable. Michael the Archangel just fits. From all that has been posted here and all that Michael Jackson has shown us during his lifetime, there is no question in my mind that he was given to us as a gift. Nothing else explains it. From his meager beginnings, to his strict upbringing, to his unyielding faith and belief in God, in his love for all living things, to this teachings that love starts and will end with the children, to his ability to do the impossible creatively, to his humbleness and lack of need to retaliate against those who trespass against him, to just about everything about him. The list goes on and on. This thread sends chills through me because there is something about Michael Jackson that is celestial. None before and I doubt any after will ever come as close to what I perceive an angel to be as Michael Jackson. His love for people and his empathy for all of God’s creatures was obviusly present at birth and only grew with world experience. Michael Jackson is a Godsend. Of thay my belief has never faltered.
<br />Loved your post!<br /><br />The Jesus of the Bible, the one people picture as the guy in a robe and sandels, has not come for 2000 plus years. I've posted elsewhere about all the times he promised the people standing there that they would not die before he came back, and it would be in their generation, and quickly, quickly. Things are proven to have been added to the Bible by the Catholic church to preserve their power, such as the concept of the Trinity. I could go on and on. People have elevated that Jesus person (black-skinned by the way) more than they should, and somehow think it is impossible for our Michael to be that kind of a lofty person. I say why not. We are all created in God's image. When Michael said that history taught to us has been a lie, that would include some of the interpretation/application of the Bible.
I believe myself to be saved through faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, also I am baptized in the Holy Spirit, I speak in tongues etc.
<br />Me too jono. That was the day that I woke up. Like stepping from the dark into the light. It has nothing to do with religion. Religion is man's attempt to please God. It never can or will. Being born again is being supernaturally birthed into the kingdom of God by blood and water, the blood of Jesus, the washing of the water of the word of God.<br /><br />Revelations12:11<br />And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.<br />
<br /><br />The different denominations of Christianity are an interesting study. Years ago, after deciding I wanted to “go deeper” in my relationship with God, I joined what is sometimes referred to as a “charismatic” or “holiness” church, that is, one where the belief is that it is necessary to get baptized in “Jesus’ name” and speak in tongues in order to gain salvation. According to the tenets of the faith, I “tarried for the Holy Ghost” and spoke in tongues and was told that no matter what I did from that point on (i.e., no matter what path or direction of faith I chose to take), because I had spoken in tongues, I would always be “saved.” Inevitably, as I studied the Bible with this particular denomination of Christianity, I began to compare the practices of this church with the practices of the church I grew up in. Basically, the denominations interpreted the same Bible in two different ways and, thereby, lived their lives according to the Bible and practiced their faith in two different ways:<br /><br />BAPTIST <br />No tongues for salvation necessary <br />No baptism “in Jesus name” necessary <br />No women clergy allowed <br />Members wore colorful, individual-style clothing<br />Facial makeup okay <br />Indulged in magazines and movies<br /><br />PENTECOSTAL<br />Tongues for salvation<br />Baptism “in Jesus name” necessary <br />Women could be ordained ministers and pastors (the pastor of the church was a woman) <br />Members wore dark, drab, clone-type clothing (distinctive clothing frowned upon)<br />Facial makeup frowned upon<br />Magazines and movies frowned upon<br /><br />In short, I got into discussions with the pastors of each church. I told neither pastor about the meeting that I had with the other. The funny thing is, they both asked me the same question, “Who’s talking to you?” In other words, they wanted to know who or what was feeding me these sudden, as I referred to them, “‘Aha’ questions and opinions”? I took notice when the first pastor asked this of me, but I didn’t have an answer; however, when the second pastor asked, in that moment, I realized that it was “I”, my Self/Soul, generating these sudden questions and opinions (Soul was “awake” and in charge, Souza ). <br /><br />Life is interesting to say the least.
Starchild, I've totally been there--lots of pride in whose more spiritual. Like you I started asking questions, which I only started getting answers to when I stepped outside of church. I now look back and see that as prison. I feel like a burden was lifted from me, of needing to save all the souls from hell. It's a matrix. It's all part of God the Creator's plan for us to understand true love.
I think you are doing an amazing job of presenting the truth of the Bible Aussie, and Souza. <br />Souza, as not being affiliated with a formal denomination, you are researching and applying the scriptures<br />accurately. That is important to do and very easy when you have no slanted views to try to fit the <br />taught theories to. It is where I began with theology. I would simply take scriptures and cross reference to<br />let the Bible tell the truth. Which it appears Souza is doing. <br />I think it will be very hard to continue this discussion without it becoming a which religion is right and which is<br />wrong. I think we need to remember that this, ultimately is about Michael, and not about who is right and wrong, just with<br />every aspect of the hoax.<br />Aussie has it right, if we have questions regarding someone's religion, it is best to not put it out on the forum, as this is<br />about Michael, and not up to religious debates, which never would end..but one day...WILL <br />LOVE to all of you, we are all on the same path. Looking for the truth in everything we do, in our heart, our soul and this<br />HOAX.
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"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."