Oh and BTW Larry, I know he is alive, I know he is not 5'9" like the AR states and I know his middle name is Joe, not Joseph. Sometimes you just know, you know?
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
"And it is common for coroners to use multiple sources to identify a deceased person, so a drivers license isn't really that strange at all"<br /><br />Not buying that at all. I have had 2 instances in my own family where identification was needed to identify a deceased family member and they never asked for nor relied on a driver’s license to do it. A reliable source, a close family member preferably, had to come into the morgue and visibly identify the deceased as hard as that was. And they never asked for their picture identification, only mine. :icon_rolleyes:
The extra star on the CA state seal is just a mistake made in production of the seal, believe it or not. That's how the real state seal appears in all CA court rooms. Refer to live feed from the Lohan trial for example. It is not a hoax clue, nor is it proof of the trial's alleged illegitimacy.<br /><br />Larry has a point though. Until we stop ignoring the facts (example: above, long ago debunked info many refuse to acknowledge), we are merely fucking around here. This is not a singular example either. Frequently where I look on the forum, people are clinging to old, debunked info as if it were factual. Drags the whole thing down to irrelevancy. It's annoying.<br /><br />The verdict did however refer to MJ as the "alleged" victim on the "alleged" date, as reviewed by the judge and read aloud by the court clerk, and to date I have not seen that reconciled. <br /><br />However, Larry, MJ was formally and solely referred to as "Michael JOE Jackson" in all court documents and proceedings during the 2005 chi-mo trial. These documents are public record and retrievable via simple google search, posted on secure govt sites--no funny business. Michael JOE Jackson is also the name contained in the FBI files released in 2009, also available online through the official FBI site. So I think that's as legit as it gets when it comes to proof of MJ's legal name, or as legit as we PC jockeys can uncover in lieu of the holy grail of the BC (sealed!). Michael JOSEPH Jackson may well be a stage name, as it is the name used for several copyright related court proceedings prior to 2009, and all legal documents submitted in accordance with the "death".<br /><br />We've also proven the "death" pic (ambulance photo) is fake, ie created. And not photoshop either, which would be uninteresting, and certainly not damning, but rather layered, which IS interesting, and IS, as you'll see, quite damning. IOW, it was created from 3 layers. First layer is a pic of MJ being worked on by paramedics within an ambulance interior. Second layer is the pattern or "proof" layer. Third layer is the sun glare and parked car reflection. Interesting proof to be sure, it suggests funny business going on. Funny business just to sell a pic to the tabloids? Sure. But it's more complicated then that considering how it must have been created, using a real pic of MJ really in an ambulance interior that matches actual ambulance 71 working in LA that day... how did NPG stage this pic WITHOUT the direct participation of MJ? That's the damning question, and that the damning evidence of hoax.<br /><br />If this is all greek to you Larry, feel free to do a topic search here on the forum. This stuff is all so familiar to us that when conducting convo on the forum, we can refer to things without links, as everyone is expected to be up to speed on the info.
:omg: Bec, I wasn't aware of the Californian seal always being wrong in court rooms. Unbelievable they don't make a right one... I didn't know this info had already been debunked, sorry for being annoying :icon_mrgreen:. But indeed the 'alleged' in the verdict is abnormal anyway. I didn't mention it because to me the extra star in the seal seemed so important. I feel a bit :icon_pale: knowing it didn't mean anything.<br /><br />About the Joe thing, I know this is the only middle name used in court docs of 2005, FBI files, ... But how do you explain the Joseph in Katherine's book then? The stage name? She really says she named him Michael Joseph. If I have time, I will quote from her book later this evening (in my timezone it's evening).
KJ, much like MJ, is not a reliable source. She is not under oath so her statements may or may not be factual. She has been proven to be unreliable in her statements in the past, therefore, all of her statements come under scrutiny.<br /><br />Government sites are much more reliable when it comes to gleaning factual information.
<br />KJ, much like MJ, is not a reliable source. She is not under oath so her statements may or may not be factual. She has been proven to be unreliable in her statements in the past, therefore, all of her statements come under scrutiny.<br /><br />Government sites are much more reliable when it comes to gleaning factual information.<br />
<br /><br />I just happen to notice the other day that Paris asked on twitter if anyone knew her time of birth...probably for astrology reading, but anyway someone googled it and sent her the information ... Joseph is used on the kid's birth certificates.<br /><br />
<br />KJ, much like MJ, is not a reliable source. She is not under oath so her statements may or may not be factual. She has been proven to be unreliable in her statements in the past, therefore, all of her statements come under scrutiny.<br /><br />Government sites are much more reliable when it comes to gleaning factual information.<br />
<br /><br />I just happen to notice the other day that Paris asked on twitter if anyone knew her time of birth...probably for astrology reading, but anyway someone googled it and sent her the information ... Joseph is used on the kid's birth certificates.<br /><br /><br />
<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />When appeared for the first time in view at the people that certificate, before or after the 25 of June?
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
<br /><br />Exactly, the reason I refrained from posting it earlier. I have lots of documents with Joseph on them. But they were all released publicly after June 25th
<br />Larry if you think Michael is dead what are you doing here?? I won't even bother to explain why I believe Michael is alive, for what?? I don't wanna lose my time, after all you won't never believe he is alive unless he returns.<br />
<br /><br />Simple , greatest words !!!! There is no more to say!! :th_bravo:
<br />Larry ain't gonna see it anyway. Trying is waisting your time. It's not a newbie, he was here 3 years ago and still thinks Michael is dead. Either he is whining just because he has too much time on his hands, or he is too lazy to start investigating and reading himself. In both cases, we should not spoon feed him any further.<br />
<br />Agreed. Some re-visiting is still interesting for us though.<br /><br />Bec, the only thing about the extra star, is why was it painted into the ‘Michael’ album cover, with matching colors and everything, if not a clue? TS did explain that there was nothing hoaxy about the extra star, just as he supposedly debunked some other fav hoaxer tidbits.<br /><br /><br /><br />Shrimp, looking forward to hearing your KJ quote from the 80's! My personal hunch is that MJ's birth name is Joseph, and since the planning of this hoax in the 80's, the confusion has been deliberately inserted in ALL documents. I've said this before, that I swore I saw a pic of young MJ holding a report card with middle name Joseph, but it's been removed. There's only a high-school one with no middle name.<br /><br />
The smoke screen was Joseph. Driver's licences, passports, indictments and FBI files are legal documents. If they say Joe, then his real name is Joe. So everywhere we see Joseph on a document, it is the image and maybe it is even a legal business name or something to be able to use it on certain documents relating to the brand and business MJ. But you don't die as an image or business, you die as a person. Katherine calls him Joseph, Michael says Joseph, Jermaine, La Toya, the court, the FBI etc call him Joe. Confusion all over, exactly according plan. Michael Joseph Jackson is the image "MJ", the King of Pop. I doubt Katherine would swear on the Bible that her son Michael, born in 1958, has Joseph as a middle name.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Unfortunately I cannot find the quote of Katherine Jackson, although I was pretty sure it was in her book. I just find no mention of his middle name at all in there.<br /><br />I found one of Joseph Jackson though, from his book "The Jacksons":<br />"Then Michael Joseph has come to world. The name "Michael" was chosen by Katherine, and we named him Joseph in my honour."<br /><br />Also La Toya in one of her books, "Growing up in the Jackson Family" mentions his birth name is Michael Joseph:<br />"The four kids to come received more typical names: Marlon David, Michael Joseph (whom we usually called Mike), ..."<br /><br />I know especially La Toya is not to be trusted as it comes to what she has written in her books, but I cannot see why she would lie about Michael's middle name at the time (early nineties).
Let me make myself clear: I don't want to start a heated discussion as to his real middle name. <br /><br />But you know, I have only been here for a couple of months and I have only been reading things about the hoax since then. At the time of his 'death', I was very busy with my job, baby, pregnancy, new house etc. So the whole Joe-Joseph thing is rather new to me.<br /><br />When I first came across the issue, it was a post in which someone asked which name was the real one, and I immediately thought 'Joseph of course', because that was the only middle name I had seen of him in all these years of being a fan. I was genuinely surprised that the answers to the question all directed to 'Joe'.<br /><br />I read some books about him, read things on line, once even did a little paper on him for school and therefore went to the library to take copies of a pop encyclopedia. In my memory, it always was Michael Joseph Jackson.<br /><br />It might sound stupid, but I'm actually pretty sure of this because I really like his name (although I reckon Michael Joseph is a very common name in America) and it would have stood out to me if I would have seen 'Michael Joe' somewhere.
<br /><br />Also La Toya in one of her books, "Growing up in the Jackson Family" mentions his birth name is Michael Joseph:<br />"The four kids to come received more typical names: Marlon David, Michael Joseph (whom we usually called Mike), ..."<br />
<br /><br />Michael Joe / Mike Joseph. Michael Joseph / Mike Joe. Lol. <br /><br />Thinking Michael Joseph is nicer, doesn't change his middle name, neither does the public believing it is.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
I understand the frustration Shrimp. But the entire time we have known of Michael Jackson, it has been as a star. If his name had been changed for business purposes early in his career, then all we would have ever seen is Joseph. I don’t know if that’s a valid explanation, but it seems kind of logical to me. To preserve some of his privacy since he was a small child when he started, I can truly understand giving him a slightly augmented stage name. Not so much that he would feel he was being made to appear as someone else, but using his father’s name (could be Joseph’s own ego tripping, :LolLolLolLol:) which would have been more comforting in a sense.
BTW Shrimp, is it possible to quote that complete part about all the names? Or a link to it online or something?
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Yes of course, I forgot the links. Here from La Toya's book: http://jetzi-mjvideo.com/books-jetzi-04/toya/toya09.html<br /><br />Joseph Jackson's: http://jetzi-mjvideo.com/books-jetzi-02/04joej/04joej08.html<br /><br />As you can see, from jetzi. What a treasure of information is to be found there!<br /><br />@Souza, it's not that I prefer the name Joseph over Joe, it's just that I only knew Joseph and that I liked it, and I have a thing for names so I reckon if I would have read another name (being Joe), I would have noticed. I don't have a year thing, so maybe (although I doubt it) I wouldn't have noticed if somewhere his birth year was stated differently.<br /><br />I can tell you 100% sure that the name Michael Joseph Jackson was to be found in numerous places before June 2009. I'm not sure the name Michael Joe was though (but I'm sure you guys are).
Michael Joseph is (as far as I see) mostly mentioned from the late 80's up until now. My mother, who is Michael's age, was surprised to see Michael Joseph, she was convinced it was Joe. <br /><br />But whatever people think or remember to be true, it is a fact that Michael's middle name is Joe. Unless the chi-mo trial was fake, the FBI investigation was fake, the passports are fake etc.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
<br /><br />Show me, dont just state it, provide evidence.<br />
<br /><br /><br />It's up to you to prove it / provide evidence for yourself. Not for others to provide it for you. Your original post was simply a sheer cry for attention or to start contention here, because if you look and mind you, you don't even have to look too hard there is plenty of evidence.<br /><br />No one here should have to investigate for you and pull out proof to make you see. Use your own initiative. Clearly you haven't, because your opening post says in 3 years its all the same old same old. What have YOU personally done in the past 3 years to find truth?<br /><br />Instead of people putting answers for you on a silver platter why don't you google, read, research and find your own proof. If you are not inclined at least then try and find proof that he is dead. That'll keep you busy for a while because there is no evidence. The entire death story is all based on hearsay, conflicting verbal statements, staged events and fake documents and photos (which have been debunked)<br /><br />Might as well add that if you believe the death story, that doesn't equate to 'Philosophical Science' my friend, it equates to 'Gulibility' sadly. Which clearly for some, no amount of education can protect you from, LOL<br /><br /><br />Waste of time debating with people who are not humble to learn from others or question what they think they know.
<br />The extra star on the CA state seal is just a mistake made in production of the seal, believe it or not. That's how the real state seal appears in all CA court rooms. Refer to live feed from the Lohan trial for example. It is not a hoax clue, nor is it proof of the trial's alleged illegitimacy.<br /><br />Larry has a point though. Until we stop ignoring the facts (example: above, long ago debunked info many refuse to acknowledge), we are merely fucking around here. This is not a singular example either. Frequently where I look on the forum, people are clinging to old, debunked info as if it were factual. Drags the whole thing down to irrelevancy. It's annoying.<br /><br />The verdict did however refer to MJ as the "alleged" victim on the "alleged" date, as reviewed by the judge and read aloud by the court clerk, and to date I have not seen that reconciled. <br /><br />However, Larry, MJ was formally and solely referred to as "Michael JOE Jackson" in all court documents and proceedings during the 2005 chi-mo trial. These documents are public record and retrievable via simple google search, posted on secure govt sites--no funny business. Michael JOE Jackson is also the name contained in the FBI files released in 2009, also available online through the official FBI site. So I think that's as legit as it gets when it comes to proof of MJ's legal name, or as legit as we PC jockeys can uncover in lieu of the holy grail of the BC (sealed!). Michael JOSEPH Jackson may well be a stage name, as it is the name used for several copyright related court proceedings prior to 2009, and all legal documents submitted in accordance with the "death".<br /><br />We've also proven the "death" pic (ambulance photo) is fake, ie created. And not photoshop either, which would be uninteresting, and certainly not damning, but rather layered, which IS interesting, and IS, as you'll see, quite damning. IOW, it was created from 3 layers. First layer is a pic of MJ being worked on by paramedics within an ambulance interior. Second layer is the pattern or "proof" layer. Third layer is the sun glare and parked car reflection. Interesting proof to be sure, it suggests funny business going on. Funny business just to sell a pic to the tabloids? Sure. But it's more complicated then that considering how it must have been created, using a real pic of MJ really in an ambulance interior that matches actual ambulance 71 working in LA that day... how did NPG stage this pic WITHOUT the direct participation of MJ? That's the damning question, and that the damning evidence of hoax.<br /><br />If this is all greek to you Larry, feel free to do a topic search here on the forum. This stuff is all so familiar to us that when conducting convo on the forum, we can refer to things without links, as everyone is expected to be up to speed on the info.<br />
<br /><br />First, Souza ^^^^^^ This person is doing what we ALL should do. 3 years ago i was immature and stupid, i have finished school and am now in tertiary education. The truth MATTERS and so long as the possibility of being wrong is still here, i will continue to discuss. Souza just "knowing" is not even close to valid. I mean i could just "know" that Michael Jackson is dead, but that doesn't make it correct... this line of thinking is what kept humanity from the truth for so long, lets not go backwards here... unless we are :moonwalk_:<br /><br />Second, MJbeLIEver, i dont need to provide evidence of ANYTHING, i have the default position. Dont act like you know my intentions, because you dont, dont get so touchy about people having a different view. <br /><br />Bec, thankyou for your post, it is very informative and intelligent, i wish more people were willing to DISCUSS like you are. That said i have looked into the photo and i agree it very well could have been faked, but the questions that remain are 1. WAS it actually faked and 2. What was the motive for faking it. We cant just apply any motive we want, we have to find the real one... or at least get a good indication.<br /><br />Finally, Joe or Joeseph doesnt actually matter, if your name is Joeseph (like Michaels) you can legally use Joe. So i do beLIEve that this fact is irrelevent to the hoax
Comments
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."