@ hazzely
1.
I already mention where the person suggesting something odd doesnt seems odd to me , except the part with the body samples under various alias could be a another possibilty to explain , that is his samples were sent to lab with assumed names to have unbiased result s , i think same goes with his histology slides
2.
as far as i remember there was somthing mention about avulsion of olfactory lobes leading to anosmia a condition patient cant smell but it happens after significant head trauma and skull fractures i cant see in this report
3.i thought scar would be mention not because burn scalp but the fact he had discoid lupus leading to scarring aloplecia ( baldness)
i know what most of you might be thinking right now after reading the post its hard for me to write it even because i know many of you might get hurt but i think i clear up your doubts , please keep an open mind and i know you all do .
For anyone who can clear this up to me (it may sound stupid):
Can patients keep on their activities (work or whatever) while a Peripheral Venous Acces remains into the veins (when it is not in use) for some time, or do you need to start a new acces every time you're gonna give IV therapy?
@ hazzely
1.
I already mention where the person suggesting something odd doesnt seems odd to me , except the part with the body samples under various alias could be a another possibilty to explain , that is his samples were sent to lab with assumed names to have unbiased result s , i think same goes with his histology slides
2.
as far as i remember there was somthing mention about avulsion of olfactory lobes leading to anosmia a condition patient cant smell but it happens after significant head trauma and skull fractures i cant see in this report
3.i thought scar would be mention not because burn scalp but the fact he had discoid lupus leading to scarring aloplecia ( baldness)
i know what most of you might be thinking right now after reading the post its hard for me to write it even because i know many of you might get hurt but i think i clear up your doubts , please keep an open mind and i know you all do .
please take care
number 2! Avulsion of Olfactory Bulb...I wrote about this a long time ago...This could have happend to MJ during nose procedures, especially if they cracked his nasal bone, but it would have caused complete lack of smell! Even taste! This could be why he didn't eat.
@ hazzely
1.
I already mention where the person suggesting something odd doesnt seems odd to me , except the part with the body samples under various alias could be a another possibilty to explain , that is his samples were sent to lab with assumed names to have unbiased result s , i think same goes with his histology slides
2.
as far as i remember there was somthing mention about avulsion of olfactory lobes leading to anosmia a condition patient cant smell but it happens after significant head trauma and skull fractures i cant see in this report
3.i thought scar would be mention not because burn scalp but the fact he had discoid lupus leading to scarring aloplecia ( baldness)
i know what most of you might be thinking right now after reading the post its hard for me to write it even because i know many of you might get hurt but i think i clear up your doubts , please keep an open mind and i know you all do .
please take care
number 2! Avulsion of Olfactory Bulb...I wrote about this a long time ago...This could have happend to MJ during nose procedures, especially if they cracked his nasal bone, but it would have caused complete lack of smell! Even taste! This could be why he didn't eat.
The Olfactory Bulbs are placed below the brain inside the skull... I'm not sure that Plastic Surgeons go that deep into the nose! <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> In fact, they would have to go very deep and very high into the nose and break a bone (not the nasal bone, but the one that separates the nose's "roof" from the skull) to get into the skull and cut the Olfactory Bulbs <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
@ mykidsmom i see it was you who mention that , you always do a great job but let me post a link so that everyone would be clear about olfactory bulbs they are at the base of brain , probably you must have read olfactory " dysfunctiong" by sinus drainage or nose surgury but avulsion is caused by "significant head|" injury , so true both smell and taste perception is gone with avulsion of bulbs
not silly but it was a very important question , the i.v catheters should be changed every 3rd day and urinary catheters every week
with i.v more than 3 days the chances of having bacterial endocarditis that is infection affecting heart valves increases significantly besides the condition called thrombophelbitis occurs
Just want to add one thing , all the above links are from various sites , few of them i had in my laptop when i was a student ,i dont take credit for any of this , copy right things is a whole issue ,by saying that , want to spare myself before someone accuse me for putting their material here . i always aim to give right concept based on facts . take care members ,Godbless you all
1.- The Thymus is not identified. [this report gets bizarre page by page, apparently the coroner was not able to find the thymus, so the dead body is missing his thymus. The thymus is a specialized organ of the immune system. In lupus patients the whole immune system becomes over active attacking the body’s tissues & organs. However in HIV AIDS patients the thymus will be damaged to the point that it cannot be identified in the body. Another cause for missing the thymus is a very rare birth defect called the Digeorge Syndrome, however people suffering from this syndrome have certain facial features that make them stand out, very much similar to Down Syndrome. We know Michael didn’t have Digeorge Syndrome, there’s no mention of the deceased body having HIV, so why is the thymus missing? I can’t find a medical explanation for it!!!!
It is worth mentioning that removal of Thymus is highly unconventional & dangerous, the only time that a surgeon might decide to remove a thymus is in infants with sever heart defects that require heart surgery, the thymus in these cases sometimes have to be removed in order for the surgeon to have an unobstructed access to the heart. however this is not the case in older children or adults. Another very rare case that requires removal of thymus, which again I insist is very rare & it's a tough choice for a surgeon to make, is if a patient is suffering from Myasthenia gravis. Myasthenia gravis is a neuro-muscular disease leading to severe fluctuation of muscles & weakness & fatiguability. Again not all the cases of Myasthenia gravis require removal of thymus. Removal of thymus bears sever neurological side effects & it is a contributing factor in death of HIV patients. So why is the body missing the Thymus?]
I may add that Myasthenia Gravis is associated with various autoimmune diseases, including:
* Thyroid diseases, including Hashimoto's thyroiditis and Graves' disease
* Diabetes mellitus type 1
* Rheumatoid arthritis
* Lupus, and
* Demyelinating CNS diseases
And I forgot to add:
Thymomas: Tumours originating from the thymic epithelial cells are called thymomas. Symptoms are sometimes confused with bronchitis or a strong cough because the tumour presses on the recurrent laryngeal nerve. All thymomas are potentially cancerous, but they can vary a great deal. Some grow very slowly. Others grow rapidly and can spread to surrounding tissues. Treatment of thymomas often requires surgery to remove the entire thymus.
Long ago, it was said that MJ ha some bronchitis related issues.
This could have been another cause for the thymus to be extirpated.
After reading again the "autopsy" all I can say that this repport looks more like a full medical examination on a living person who may be is being a victim of abuse.
I always thought that the repport was connected to all the examinations Michael was obliged to pass during his trials, but after reading again, I have my doubts.
On another note: what type of medical tests was Michael suposed to pass for the insurance of the concerts?
Dear Gema i agree SYSTEMIC LUPUS is associated with autoimmune diseases like you mention , but he had DISCOID Lupus not systemic which is a subform of lupus the difference being the involvemnt of all the body system in systemic hence the name suggesting systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE) but with discoid one suffers scars on scalp,( the scarring baldness i mention ) baldness , and butterfly rashes on face which was in remission phase according to dr klein
anything which grows out of its normal size with cause pressure symptoms by pressing the air channel called trachea , not necessarily the thymoma , the brochitis is totally a different identity it involves deep respiratory air passages not the main channel i.e trachea
about dr klein didnt he say something about open i.v lines mj had , as far as i remember i read somewhere joe jackson also mention the same , i cant see any thing suggesting its presence in autopsy report , another lie .... disgusting
about dr klein didnt he say something about open i.v lines mj had , as far as i remember i read somewhere joe jackson also mention the same , i cant see any thing suggesting its presence in autopsy report , another lie .... disgusting
Hi mjj_fan!
I did not know that Klein mentioned something about open I.V's.
This is what I have read regarding I.V lines:
. EMS Report:
The paramedics found Michael with an I.V line in his left leg, made by Dr. Murray. They used this line to give Michael the first round of drugs.
A Paramedic started an I.V line in his left Jugular: the next round of drugs was given through it. (I wonder what was wrong with the leg's I.V line that they have to start a new I.V line in his Jugular?)
. Autopsy Report:
Under “Evidence of recent therapy”:
“... Intravascular catheters enter the left jugular vein...” (the one made by the paramedics.)
“... and both femoral vessels...” (made once at UCLA.)
“... punctures are present on the medial left knee...” (That’s were was placed Murray’s line. The body had not the catheter anymore but its puncture is there.)
not silly but it was a very important question , the i.v catheters should be changed every 3rd day and urinary catheters every week
with i.v more than 3 days the chances of having bacterial endocarditis that is infection affecting heart valves increases significantly besides the condition called thrombophelbitis occurs
Thanks for answer!
I asked you that because I was trying to figure out why would Murray choose to put a line in the leg instead in the arm, since the last is the common place so far, right?
Well, he said he gave Michael Propofol for 6 wks.
My thoughts are:
- If you can leave the I.V in “Stand by” into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn’t be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg.
- If you can’t leave the catheter, to keep hidden not the line but the punctures. They would’ve been a lot of punctures in different stages of healing.
- He complained of being dehydrated that night. Do you believe is it possible that dehydration made difficult the arm catheterization, so he had to do it in his leg? I mean, does it exist?
Hi mj2981958
He did , on Tmz live ,I.v line on medial left leg??? i didnt know that ,Im surprised why dr Murray did that ,the usual site to place a catheter are the upper limbs ,but ofcourse you can expect anything of him... silly person should have known the joints are the worst sites specially for a dancer , how could someone perform with them in place ??? , as i mention very earlier in one of my post and i m writting it down one more time , its very painful to pull out and put the catheter everyday , so they are left for maximum of 3 days , while they are still in your vessels one cant even lift up his limb dancing is out of question besides everytime you prick a vessel it collapse and that site is no longer feasible to draw the blood even
i have seen drug abusers with multiple punctute marks on arm . neck and legs less often but dorsum of the foot specially between the big toe and digits .... well in my practice i have never seen them may be someone else encounter a patient with wounds in that area
@ HAZZELY Where did i mention that ??? i meant its NOT POSSIBLE to have catheters or haplock inserted in vessels and perform both at same time ,please read it again i said "how could someone perform with them in place ? "
@ HAZZELY Where did i mention that ??? i meant its NOT POSSIBLE to have catheters or haplock inserted in vessels and perform both at same time ,please read it again i said "how could someone perform with them in place ? "
now for those who have watch tii , did u notice any open iv in any scene? remember the photo where he was wearing the red jacket and holding a lollipop ? his full arm was exposed and by the way while you are having cannula / heplock Iv its never easy to bend the arm or leg how one can dance while having it in his vein?
Hi mj2981958
He did , on Tmz live ,I.v line on medial left leg??? i didnt know that ,Im surprised why dr Murray did that ,the usual site to place a catheter are the upper limbs ,but ofcourse you can expect anything of him... silly person should have known the joints are the worst sites specially for a dancer , how could someone perform with them in place ???
I'm sorry but I don't get it, why do you even mention this?
Who said something about dancing with a heplock IV in place? It's obvious that isn't even possible and Michael didn't do that
@mj298195 8
about dehydration all the vessels collapse no matter upper or lower limb , you are left with 2 choices then , either insert catheter in larger vessels or go for venous cut down where a minor surgical incision is given to expose saphenous vein and i.v line is maintained
you seem to have good medical knowledge i appreciate that , but i guess if you read my previous posts you will get your answers we discuss various issues in the link below,i thank everyone for it specially a dear friend of mine, lisap27
@ hazzely exactly thats the point , let me put it that way , for a continuse drug infusion you need to maintain an i.v line , right , now according to tmz dr murray was giving propofol for past 10 days , i suppose he did the same , inserted i.v line but once you place a cannula or haplock you cant insert it in the same vessels it become useless you have to puncture other vein , now the problem is , practically there are not as many ideal sites to maintain i.v because either the veins are not straight or are too deep , so i assume dr murray must have left haplock in mj veins , because of the above mention reason second for the pain it cause to the patient 3rd michael hate needles so there is no reason to bother your patient taking in and out every night and for that matter you need a nurse ,as physicians are not as good as they are , and can you expect a person who was doing a cpr was first time could do that correctly without double pricks ?? besides a consultant rarely maintain i.v lines but juniors doctors do it but again rare ,in any case you need an expert assistance , now if mj had one in his vessles how can he perform ,
by the way propofol is extreme short acting drug , if dr murray was giving him to treat insomnia it must be in infusion form , you can take a look a video i posted sometimes back how within minutes the infusion stops , the patient regains consciousness
@ hazzely exactly thats the point , let me put it that way , for a continuse drug infusion you need to maintain an i.v line , right , now according to tmz dr murray was giving propofol for past 10 days , i suppose he did the same , inserted i.v line but once you place a cannula or haplock you cant insert it in the same vessels it become useless you have to puncture other vein , now the problem is , practically there are not as many ideal sites to maintain i.v because either the veins are not straight or are too deep , so i assume dr murray must have left haplock in mj veins , because of the above mention reason second for the pain it cause to the patient 3rd michael hate needles so there is no reason to bother your patient taking in and out every night and for that matter you need a nurse ,as physicians are not as good as they are , and can you expect a person who was doing a cpr was first time could do that correctly without double pricks ?? besides a consultant rarely maintain i.v lines but juniors doctors do it but again rare ,in any case you need an expert assistance , now if mj had one in his vessles how can he perform ,
by the way propofol is extreme short acting drug , if dr murray was giving him to treat insomnia it must be in infusion form , you can take a look a video i posted sometimes back how within minutes the infusion stops , the patient regains consciousness
base line .... things dont add up ,i hope i m getting my point across
I suppose Murray had to insert the IV everytime he gave Michael propofol since you have to be crazy to keep the heplock in place and dance with it..no way, i refuse to believe it
Even though I don't think Michael was given propofol, I don't know who did they perform the autopsy on but that report can't be his..
4- The body’s height is 69 inches = 5.75 ft = 175.26 cm ( Michael’s height according to his driver’s license & passport is 5.9 ft =179.83 cm )
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (and if I'm beating a dead horse from other posts I haven't read, I apologize), but ...
69 inches is the same as 5 feet, 9 inches (12 inches per foot). So I see no discrepancy between what the autopsy says the decedent's height is and what MJ's driver's license shows ("5-09").
Maybe the problem lies in using the metric system instead of the standard (US) system to calculate?
I know this is a minor point in the whole argument but I've heard that mentioned a few times as a clue. Just wanted to put it out there.
thats what i said its not possible to perform with them in place on one hand and on otherhand inserting and reinserting them everyday , anyways i believe we only know half truth , half ..still a mystery, hopefully the court trails would reveal complete
@pj4j its fine you pointed out that but height is measured in centimeters more often during autopsy but you can still expect minor errors with plus minus 1 cm than actual height of the deceased and it depends upon who and how measurements have been taken , may be it was correctly done during autopsy than the data collected during court trials , 1-2cm error can be can ignored but yes 10 inches or cm one cant
sometimes the physician during the autopsy overlook cetain important clues thats why exhumation is performed later when you are suspicious about missed finding during autopsy
Comments
1.
I already mention where the person suggesting something odd doesnt seems odd to me , except the part with the body samples under various alias could be a another possibilty to explain , that is his samples were sent to lab with assumed names to have unbiased result s , i think same goes with his histology slides
2.
as far as i remember there was somthing mention about avulsion of olfactory lobes leading to anosmia a condition patient cant smell but it happens after significant head trauma and skull fractures i cant see in this report
3.i thought scar would be mention not because burn scalp but the fact he had discoid lupus leading to scarring aloplecia ( baldness)
i know what most of you might be thinking right now after reading the post its hard for me to write it even because i know many of you might get hurt but i think i clear up your doubts , please keep an open mind and i know you all do .
please take care
Can patients keep on their activities (work or whatever) while a Peripheral Venous Acces remains into the veins (when it is not in use) for some time, or do you need to start a new acces every time you're gonna give IV therapy?
Thanks guys!
The Olfactory Bulbs are placed below the brain inside the skull... I'm not sure that Plastic Surgeons go that deep into the nose! <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> In fact, they would have to go very deep and very high into the nose and break a bone (not the nasal bone, but the one that separates the nose's "roof" from the skull) to get into the skull and cut the Olfactory Bulbs <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
<!-- m -->http://www.medical-look.com/human_anato ... nerve.html<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://biology.about.com/gi/dynamic/off ... ndex/Brain<!-- m -->^Surface/Ventral^view^2%2Bshowstr%2Blabstr%2B4
<!-- m -->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUa12oXw ... re=related<!-- m -->
@mj 2981958
not silly but it was a very important question , the i.v catheters should be changed every 3rd day and urinary catheters every week
with i.v more than 3 days the chances of having bacterial endocarditis that is infection affecting heart valves increases significantly besides the condition called thrombophelbitis occurs
I may add that Myasthenia Gravis is associated with various autoimmune diseases, including:
* Thyroid diseases, including Hashimoto's thyroiditis and Graves' disease
* Diabetes mellitus type 1
* Rheumatoid arthritis
* Lupus, and
* Demyelinating CNS diseases
Thymomas: Tumours originating from the thymic epithelial cells are called thymomas. Symptoms are sometimes confused with bronchitis or a strong cough because the tumour presses on the recurrent laryngeal nerve. All thymomas are potentially cancerous, but they can vary a great deal. Some grow very slowly. Others grow rapidly and can spread to surrounding tissues. Treatment of thymomas often requires surgery to remove the entire thymus.
Long ago, it was said that MJ ha some bronchitis related issues.
This could have been another cause for the thymus to be extirpated.
I always thought that the repport was connected to all the examinations Michael was obliged to pass during his trials, but after reading again, I have my doubts.
On another note: what type of medical tests was Michael suposed to pass for the insurance of the concerts?
anything which grows out of its normal size with cause pressure symptoms by pressing the air channel called trachea , not necessarily the thymoma , the brochitis is totally a different identity it involves deep respiratory air passages not the main channel i.e trachea
I don´t trust Klein <!-- s
Hi mjj_fan!
I did not know that Klein mentioned something about open I.V's.
This is what I have read regarding I.V lines:
. EMS Report:
The paramedics found Michael with an I.V line in his left leg, made by Dr. Murray. They used this line to give Michael the first round of drugs.
A Paramedic started an I.V line in his left Jugular: the next round of drugs was given through it. (I wonder what was wrong with the leg's I.V line that they have to start a new I.V line in his Jugular?)
. Autopsy Report:
Under “Evidence of recent therapy”:
“... Intravascular catheters enter the left jugular vein...” (the one made by the paramedics.)
“... and both femoral vessels...” (made once at UCLA.)
“... punctures are present on the medial left knee...” (That’s were was placed Murray’s line. The body had not the catheter anymore but its puncture is there.)
Thanks for answer!
I asked you that because I was trying to figure out why would Murray choose to put a line in the leg instead in the arm, since the last is the common place so far, right?
Well, he said he gave Michael Propofol for 6 wks.
My thoughts are:
- If you can leave the I.V in “Stand by” into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn’t be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg.
- If you can’t leave the catheter, to keep hidden not the line but the punctures. They would’ve been a lot of punctures in different stages of healing.
- He complained of being dehydrated that night. Do you believe is it possible that dehydration made difficult the arm catheterization, so he had to do it in his leg? I mean, does it exist?
(PS: I'm not saying the report is real)
He did , on Tmz live ,I.v line on medial left leg??? i didnt know that ,Im surprised why dr Murray did that ,the usual site to place a catheter are the upper limbs ,but ofcourse you can expect anything of him... silly person should have known the joints are the worst sites specially for a dancer , how could someone perform with them in place ??? , as i mention very earlier in one of my post and i m writting it down one more time , its very painful to pull out and put the catheter everyday , so they are left for maximum of 3 days , while they are still in your vessels one cant even lift up his limb dancing is out of question besides everytime you prick a vessel it collapse and that site is no longer feasible to draw the blood even
i have seen drug abusers with multiple punctute marks on arm . neck and legs less often but dorsum of the foot specially between the big toe and digits .... well in my practice i have never seen them may be someone else encounter a patient with wounds in that area
I'm sorry but I don't get it, why do you even mention this?
Who said something about dancing with a heplock IV in place? It's obvious that isn't even possible and Michael didn't do that
That's why I asked cause your post confused me.
I mean.. where are you trying to get with this?
about dehydration all the vessels collapse no matter upper or lower limb , you are left with 2 choices then , either insert catheter in larger vessels or go for venous cut down where a minor surgical incision is given to expose saphenous vein and i.v line is maintained
you seem to have good medical knowledge i appreciate that , but i guess if you read my previous posts you will get your answers we discuss various issues in the link below,i thank everyone for it specially a dear friend of mine, lisap27
<!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=17&t=156<!-- l -->
like i said earlier i cant visit here daily ,but you can pm me and have my email address i will try to clear your doubts as much as i could , Godbless
by the way propofol is extreme short acting drug , if dr murray was giving him to treat insomnia it must be in infusion form , you can take a look a video i posted sometimes back how within minutes the infusion stops , the patient regains consciousness
<!-- l -->viewtopic.php?t=3563<!-- l -->
base line .... things dont add up ,i hope i m getting my point across
I suppose Murray had to insert the IV everytime he gave Michael propofol since you have to be crazy to keep the heplock in place and dance with it..no way, i refuse to believe it
Even though I don't think Michael was given propofol, I don't know who did they perform the autopsy on but that report can't be his..
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (and if I'm beating a dead horse from other posts I haven't read, I apologize), but ...
69 inches is the same as 5 feet, 9 inches (12 inches per foot). So I see no discrepancy between what the autopsy says the decedent's height is and what MJ's driver's license shows ("5-09").
Maybe the problem lies in using the metric system instead of the standard (US) system to calculate?
I know this is a minor point in the whole argument but I've heard that mentioned a few times as a clue. Just wanted to put it out there.
sometimes the physician during the autopsy overlook cetain important clues thats why exhumation is performed later when you are suspicious about missed finding during autopsy