@pj4j its fine you pointed out that but height is measured in centimeters more often during autopsy but you can still expect minor errors with plus minus 1 cm than actual height of the deceased and it depends upon who and how measurements have been taken , may be it was correctly done during autopsy than the data collected during court trials , 1-2cm error can be can ignored but yes 10 inches or cm one cant
sometimes the physician during the autopsy overlook cetain important clues thats why exhumation is performed later when you are suspicious about missed finding during autopsy
Thanks for explaining that better, mjj_fan. I'm not well-versed in medical procedures but I can see what you're saying about the discrepancy now, if autopsies are most likely done by centimeters. That actually raises another question about the autopsy report (for me, anyway), because they didn't record it as cm. It reads "measures 69 inches in length." Wouldn't it make more sense to record the cm and avoid having to make the conversion?
Anyway, even from my layman's perspective, I agree that there is way too much that just doesn't make sense in this report, starting with the simple fact that positive ID was made simply by "visual comparison to his California Drivers License." And as someone else pointed out, he was living in Vegas at the time so it's questionable whether that was even current and suitable for comparison.
Something else that struck me funny (non-medical) was the scene description. It says that the bedroom where the decedent had been resting was not his usual bedroom, which was down the hall. If MJ had a doctor coming over every night, why wouldn't he be set up for treatment in his usual bedroom? Why be in this other room? It makes no sense to me unless, of course, this was a staged scene or a room where someone else was being treated. And there's nothing of a personal nature in there. I believe Michael knew photos would be published and after the Neverland nightmare, he was extremely careful to protect his privacy.
Hi mj2981958
He did , on Tmz live ,I.v line on medial left leg??? i didnt know that ,Im surprised why dr Murray did that ,the usual site to place a catheter are the upper limbs ,but ofcourse you can expect anything of him... silly person should have known the joints are the worst sites specially for a dancer , how could someone perform with them in place ??? , as i mention very earlier in one of my post and i m writting it down one more time , its very painful to pull out and put the catheter everyday , so they are left for maximum of 3 days , while they are still in your vessels one cant even lift up his limb dancing is out of question besides everytime you prick a vessel it collapse and that site is no longer feasible to draw the blood even
i have seen drug abusers with multiple punctute marks on arm . neck and legs less often but dorsum of the foot specially between the big toe and digits .... well in my practice i have never seen them may be someone else encounter a patient with wounds in that area
Ok, I got it. Thanks!
So, to answer the previous questions on why Murray would have choose to put the I.V line in Michael’s lower limb:
-“ He complained of being dehydrated that night. Do you believe is it possible that dehydration made difficult the arm catheterization, so he had to do it in his leg? ”
Nop, If he would’ve been dehydrated at the point of having his veins collapsed, such procedure is difficult no matter what limbs you choose to catheterize.
-“ If you can leave the I.V in “Stand by” into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn’t be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg.”
Since every move would be absolutely painful, keep on doing your everyday activities (rehearsing in this case) with an open catheter is just IMPOSSIBLE, NO WAY (that's why I warned about the silliness of the first question!).
-“ If you can’t leave the catheter, you put the line in the leg to keep hidden not the line, but the punctures. They would’ve been a lot of punctures in different stages of healing.”
Possible, yet put-on/remove-off the catheter on a daily basis is very painful for the patient and you need to find a new place/vassel to catheterize each time (in this case, every night).
So after your answers I assume that Dr. Murray wanted to keep the punctures hidden, or he had to start with the lower limbs veins because he already used the veins of his upper limbs. Any other ideas?
@ pj4j
But i want to add something , i mention height measurements in cm mostly but not always , few forensic pathologist prefer cm others inches ,but i admit there are chances of making errors and its something not unusual , but in this high profile case the autopsy lasted 7 hours versus normal which take 3 hours maximum , so i believe they did a thorough examination here is a link of regular autopsy sheet you can view it
@ gema NO its not done by students its by forensic pathologist in criminal cases and pathologist resident and seniour doctors in in-hospital set up , students can only observe or assist the physicians
-“ If you can leave the I.V in “Stand by” into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn’t be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg.”
Since every move would be absolutely painful, keep on doing your everyday activities (rehearsing in this case) with an open catheter is just IMPOSSIBLE, NO WAY (that's why I warned about the silliness of the first question!).
IVs should never ever be too painful to move. If I put an IV in an AC, the patient can move their arm all they want with no pain. And if someone puts an IV in my AC, the same applies. I've had numerous IVs and given hundreds more. They should never be painful upon movement.
To answer your last question i need to know exactly how many days mj was on propofol , and then count the puncture wounds as mention in the report, while examining the wounds, description must be accurate in every detail and situation should be noted with reference to fixed anatomical points , various terms are used to describe severity of an injury , whether a wound is due to accident , suicide or murder is determined by a synthesis of different findings including its nature , severity , site , position of body clothing and other collateral police finding
One thing worth mentioning ,post mortem finding should never be discussed and reporters should be refered to the police press liasison officer . i remember reading a case back in 1957 when the victim of Evans and Allens who were the last 2 criminals in Uk to hang , had been battered and stabbed, at no time during the investigation was the stabbing mention until alluded to , incriminatingly by Evans in his statement to police .
What i know these autopsy reports become public records if some crime is involve OR once on going investigation is done , now you can think either ways ! to me it seems when the report was released the invesigation was completed , but then trials should have begun much earlier but why they keep on saying its an on going investigation i dont get it
Although its unethical to release autopsy pictures to public besides above all not everyone bear to view them but i have been told both autopsy report and pictures of criminal nature is a public record in United states and probably that was the reason Ms Katherine was much concerned about it
but if some one wants to be 100% sure of that he /she can email and get L.A coroner s opinion on releasing the pictures
@ pj4j
But i want to add something , i mention height measurements in cm mostly but not always , few forensic pathologist prefer cm others inches ,but i admit there are chances of making errors and its something not unusual , but in this high profile case the autopsy lasted 7 hours versus normal which take 3 hours maximum , so i believe they did a thorough examination here is a link of regular autopsy sheet you can view it
Thanks for the link. I saw the standard measurements but as you said, I guess it's up to the person doing the autopsy and what they're comfortable with. I really appreciate you and others with medical knowledge giving input here. I feel at such a disadvantage not knowing the terminology and it takes forever to google and make sense of everything. Even then, I can't deduce the "intangibles" that someone with experience can bring to the discussion. Thanks again!
@ loma i mention above there is nothing as arthritis of FINGER NAILS ,i think someone misguided the person who made the original post
@ mj2981958 why did you underline those 3 paragraphs ? did someone ask you those question just wondering but in anycase you might have read all the links i mention above , if the puncture wounds were by i.v lines i dont think dorsum of foot specially a site between big toe and second digit make sense , like i said earlier , its a very poor decision on anyones part to have cannula at or near joint , plus the importance of venous cut down or CVP lines comes when patient is collapsed by dehydration or whatever reason plus with no superficial veins , uum venous cut down comes first Cvp only done by physicians ,in in- hospital settings and in complicated cases
@ PJ4MJ Thankyou for your appreciation ,you are very kind ,by the way you dont need to google and search for any medical terminology forever ,you can have my email address i try to help you as much as i could , Godbless you
@ mj2981958 why did you underline those 3 paragraphs ? did someone ask you those question just wondering but in anycase you might have read all the links i mention above , if the puncture wounds were by i.v lines i dont think dorsum of foot specially a site between big toe and second digit make sense , like i said earlier , its a very poor decision on anyones part to have cannula at or near joint , plus the importance of venous cut down or CVP lines comes when patient is collapsed by dehydration or whatever reason plus with no superficial veins , uum venous cut down comes first Cvp only done by physicians ,in in- hospital settings and in complicated cases
Lol! What a mess! <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
Look, I was interested on why did Murray choose Michael's leg to start an I.V line, since the upper limbs are the most common site to do it. Before make my questions, I needed to know this:
For anyone who can clear this up to me (it may sound stupid):
Can patients keep on their activities (work or whatever) while a Peripheral Venous Acces remains into the veins (when it is not in use) for some time, or do you need to start a new acces every time you're gonna give IV therapy?
Thanks guys!
You replied me this:
@mj 2981958
not silly but it was a very important question , the i.v catheters should be changed every 3rd day and urinary catheters every week
with i.v more than 3 days the chances of having bacterial endocarditis that is infection affecting heart valves increases significantly besides the condition called thrombophelbitis occurs
Then I made my questions, guessing why did Murray such a thing. I could only think in these 3 options:
Thanks for answer!
I asked you that because I was trying to figure out why would Murray choose to put a line in the leg instead in the arm, since the last is the common place so far, right?
Well, he said he gave Michael Propofol for 6 wks.
My thoughts are:
- If you can leave the I.V in “Stand by” into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn’t be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg.
- If you can’t leave the catheter, to keep hidden not the line but the punctures. They would’ve been a lot of punctures in different stages of healing.
- He complained of being dehydrated that night. Do you believe is it possible that dehydration made difficult the arm catheterization, so he had to do it in his leg? I mean, does it exist?
Your reply was:
Hi mj2981958
He did , on Tmz live ,I.v line on medial left leg??? i didnt know that ,Im surprised why dr Murray did that ,the usual site to place a catheter are the upper limbs ,but ofcourse you can expect anything of him... silly person should have known the joints are the worst sites specially for a dancer , how could someone perform with them in place ??? , as i mention very earlier in one of my post and i m writting it down one more time , its very painful to pull out and put the catheter everyday , so they are left for maximum of 3 days , while they are still in your vessels one cant even lift up his limb dancing is out of question besides everytime you prick a vessel it collapse and that site is no longer feasible to draw the blood even
i have seen drug abusers with multiple punctute marks on arm . neck and legs less often but dorsum of the foot specially between the big toe and digits .... well in my practice i have never seen them may be someone else encounter a patient with wounds in that area
And this one:
@mj298195 8
about dehydration all the vessels collapse no matter upper or lower limb , you are left with 2 choices then , either insert catheter in larger vessels or go for venous cut down where a minor surgical incision is given to expose saphenous vein and i.v line is maintained
you seem to have good medical knowledge i appreciate that , but i guess if you read my previous posts you will get your answers we discuss various issues in the link below,i thank everyone for it specially a dear friend of mine, lisap27
like i said earlier i cant visit here daily ,but you can pm me and have my email address i will try to clear your doubts as much as i could , Godbless
So, from both of your responses, and after reading the links you provide me, I got the answers to my 3 previous questions, and reach my conclusion:
Ok, I got it. Thanks!
So, to answer the previous questions on why Murray would have choose to put the I.V line in Michael’s lower limb:
-“ He complained of being dehydrated that night. Do you believe is it possible that dehydration made difficult the arm catheterization, so he had to do it in his leg? ”
Nop, If he would’ve been dehydrated at the point of having his veins collapsed, such procedure is difficult no matter what limbs you choose to catheterize.
-“ If you can leave the I.V in “Stand by” into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn’t be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg.”
Since every move would be absolutely painful, keep on doing your everyday activities (rehearsing in this case) with an open catheter is just IMPOSSIBLE, NO WAY (that's why I warned about the silliness of the first question!).
-“ If you can’t leave the catheter, you put the line in the leg to keep hidden not the line, but the punctures. They would’ve been a lot of punctures in different stages of healing.”
Possible, yet put-on/remove-off the catheter on a daily basis is very painful for the patient and you need to find a new place/vassel to catheterize each time (in this case, every night).
So after your answers I assume that Dr. Murray wanted to keep the punctures hidden, or he had to start with the lower limbs veins because he already used the veins of his upper limbs. Any other ideas?
^ I re-posted my 3 questions, now with the answers I got after reading your stuff, to avoid misunderstandings... But aparently I misunderstood the info, so LadyMedic corrected me (thank you!):
-“ If you can leave the I.V in “Stand by” into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn’t be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg.”
Since every move would be absolutely painful, keep on doing your everyday activities (rehearsing in this case) with an open catheter is just IMPOSSIBLE, NO WAY (that's why I warned about the silliness of the first question!).
IVs should never ever be too painful to move. If I put an IV in an AC, the patient can move their arm all they want with no pain. And if someone puts an IV in my AC, the same applies. I've had numerous IVs and given hundreds more. They should never be painful upon movement.
Anyway, I wanted to clarify that in these old thread mjj_fan gave me the link, people were saying that I.V are very, very painful. But I dunno, because I never had one of these into my veins, so I was honestly asking <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
And that's all. I hope it's clear now.
Thank you all for clear this up for me, and you can blame me and my english for any confusion! <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
@ loma i mention above there is nothing as arthritis of FINGER NAILS ,i think someone misguided the person who made the original post
<!-- s --><!-- s --> Yes.
There cannot be arthritis in your fingernails, since there are no joints that can be affected.
I think the original poster confused it with the discoloration.
@mj2981958 im glad finally you got my point ,communication gap is to blame not your english its perfect , dont worry <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
Somewhere I think we should appreciate the original author for the time and effort she put in here believe me reading all 50 plus pages and then interpretation of medical terminology is not an easy task for a lay man , Its really bad some body misguided her and thats how i felt the need to clear misunderstanding so that everyone should know the facts , just like fews days back i was truely disguisted by an author writing a book exclusively on the drugs found in Micheal body during autopsy ,Im sure he must have made alot of money what he sold half truth ? will he ever confess of not doing a thorough research before making something available to public , so sad ...please dont waste your precious time and money reading rubbish
By keeping an open mind to any possibilty , there is a chance of with -holding certain information for the court trails thats why few things still missing in this report , it just my personal opinion ,at the end of the day its up to everyone to decide what they believe
Im hoping someone from the media reading my post, will write about Dr Klein and Murray lies instead of dissecting his personal life , I clearly remember dr Klein said about an open I.v line at TMZ live during his first interview, post 25th june , and there wasnt anything mention in this report , if someone would do it, that day i will feel my efforts didnt go in vain ! they can take the credit for it i dont mind ,but please stop writing and misleading others, Take care members , Godbless you all
Let's say Murray injected propofol to "Michael" and it had a bad reaction due to the amount of drugs he was given during the night...propofol acts in less than a minute...
I'm not a medic but I can 100% say it IS NOT POSSIBLE to have a heart attack and still have pulse and breath after 47 MINUTES!
Heart attack is different from Cardiac arrest , as propofol leads to cardiac arrest and respiratory depression , so i assume you mean cardiac arrest ...with heart attack, people do have pulse and spontaneous respiratory efforts but cardiac arrest is defined as no pulse no breathing and lose of consciousness , its different from coma too
The media broke news , Micheal was in coma later on he suffers cardiac arrest and then ....
Heart attack is different from Cardiac arrest , i think you mean cardiac arrest because propofol leads to cardiac arrest and respiratory depression , with heart attack, people do have pulse and respiratory efforts but cardiac arrest is defined as no pulse no breathing and lose of consciousness , its different from coma too
The media broke news , Micheal was in coma later on he suffers cardiac arrest and then ....
They said he was in cardiac arrest, but Murray was away from Michael for 47' .. How can someone be in a coma for 47 minutes and still have pulse and breath without medical assistance? ...
The heart has an internal electrical system that controls the rhythm of the heartbeat. Problems can cause abnormal heart rhythms, called arrhythmias. There are many types. During an arrhythmia, the heart can beat too fast, too slow, or it can stop beating. Sudden cardiac arrest occurs when the heart develops an arrhythmia that causes it to stop beating. This is different than a heart attack, where the heart usually continues to beat but blood flow to the heart is blocked.
There are many possible causes of cardiac arrest. They include coronary heart disease, heart attack, electrocution, drowning, or choking. There may not be a known cause to the cardiac arrest.
Without medical attention, the person will die within a few minutes. People are less likely to die if they have early cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and defibrillation. Defibrillation is delivering an electric shock to restore the heart rhythm to normal. he need an urgent " effective " CPR and call for help unlike 47 delay , compression on beds with one hand beneath and other on chest by the person doing it for the very first time ..... sigh
Coma is totally a different identity , there are 4 grades of coma , but not going in to detail let me tell you its simply means lack of consciousness
The heart has an internal electrical system that controls the rhythm of the heartbeat. Problems can cause abnormal heart rhythms, called arrhythmias. There are many types. During an arrhythmia, the heart can beat too fast, too slow, or it can stop beating. Sudden cardiac arrest occurs when the heart develops an arrhythmia that causes it to stop beating. This is different than a heart attack, where the heart usually continues to beat but blood flow to the heart is blocked.
There are many possible causes of cardiac arrest. They include coronary heart disease, heart attack, electrocution, drowning, or choking. There may not be a known cause to the cardiac arrest.
Without medical attention, the person will die within a few minutes. People are less likely to die if they have early cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and defibrillation. Defibrillation is delivering an electric shock to restore the heart rhythm to normal. he need an urgent " effective " CPR and call for help unlike 47 delay , compression on beds with one hand beneath and other on chest by the person doing it for the very first time ..... sigh
Coma is totally a different identity , there are 4 grades of coma , but not going in to detail let me tell you its simply means lack of consciousness
Well I know it is different but that's why he entered in a coma, because he didn't receive any medical assistance. For everyone else who is not familiar with these terms:
A cardiac arrest is different from (but may be caused by) a heart attack, where blood flow to the muscle of the heart is impaired.
Arrested blood circulation prevents delivery of oxygen to the body. Lack of oxygen to the brain causes loss of consciousness, which then results in abnormal or absent breathing. Brain injury is likely if cardiac arrest goes untreated for more than five minutes. For the best chance of survival and neurological recovery, immediate and decisive treatment is imperative.
Cardiac arrest is a medical emergency that, in certain situations is potentially reversible if treated early.
Chain of survival
Several organisations promote the idea of a "chain of survival" The links are:
Early recognition - If possible, recognition of illness before the patient develops a cardiac arrest will allow the rescuer to prevent its occurrence. Early recognition that a cardiac arrest has occurred is key to survival - for every minute a patient is in cardiac arrest, their chances of survival drop by roughly 10%. Early CPR - improves blood and oxygen flow to vital organs and an essential component of treating a cardiac arrest. In particular, by keeping the brain supplied with oxygenated blood, chances of neurological damage are decreased. Early defibrillation - is effective for the management of ventricular fibrillation and pulseless ventricular tachycardia If defibrillation is delayed the rhythm is likely to degenerate into asystole for which outcomes are worse.
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrest<!-- m -->
So I don't know how could he still have pulse after 47 minutes .......
Also I found this information:
Ventilation Tracheal intubation has not been found to improve survival rates in cardiac arrest cases. A 2009 study has found that assisted ventilation may worsen outcomes over placement of an oral airway with passive oxygen delivery. ......
didnt they say he was in coma then suffers cardiac arrest prior to death ? what i know dr murray found him unconscious with faint femoral pulse and shallow breathing which means he was in coma , the drugs he was given that day depress the respiratory centre , and blood presssure drops too , hence the weak pulse (low bp is one of cause of weak pulse )
those who slip into coma have pulse and normal breathing drive , with cardiac arrest the first sign is loss of consciousness followed by no pulse no breathing
didnt they say he was in coma then suffers cardiac arrest prior to death ? what i know dr murray found him unconscious with faint femoral pulse and shallow breathing which means he was in coma , the drugs he was given depress the respiratory centre , and blood presssure drops too
those who slip into coma have pulse and normal breathing drive , with cardiac arrest the first sign is loss of consciousness followed by no pulse no breathing
Michael Jackson Cardiac Arrest and Die
by Teh Obenks on Jun.26, 2009, under Celebrities
Michael Jackson is dead? How Did Michael Jackson Die? Well, after suffering a cardiac arrest, the King of Pop went under a deep coma and later on declared dead by the staff hospital. The death of Michael Jackson.
Pop star Michael Jackson has died at age 50 after suffering a cardiac arrest, according to media reports.
Los Angeles TV station KTLA reports that Los Angeles fire officials said they responded to a 911 call at Jackson’s home and that Jackson wasn’t breathing when they arrived; paramedics performed CPR and rushed him to UCLA Medical Center, although the hospital, due to privacy rules, could not confirm that.
In a cardiac arrest, the heart stops working properly. A cardiac arrest is not the same as a heart attack, but it can happen because of a heart attack, notes Douglas Zipes, MD, MACC, distinguished professor at Indiana University School of Medicine and past president of the American College of Cardiology.
Zipes explains that “cardiac arrest is a heart rhythm disturbance when the bottom chamber of the heart, the ventricles, beat an at extremely rapid rate — 4 to 600 times a minute.”
Zipes says that heart rhythm “prevents that bottom chamber from effective contraction and pumping blood to the brain and to the rest of the body, and death results if it’s not reversed within four or five minutes, generally.”
I'm hoping to clarify this whole cardiac arrest vs. heart attack vs. what allegedly happened to MJ.
As mjj_fan stated, a heart attack and cardiac arrest are entire different. You can even have a heart attack and not even know it and you'll just continue on with your life. MJ did NOT have a heart attack.
Now, the timeline for when MJ apparently died to when Murray walked in the room is still essentially undetermined. Murray claims there was a pulse. Do I believe this? Not for a gosh darn second. Ultimately, when the paramedics arrived, he has no pulse and remained with no pulse throughout their time with him. At UCLA, staff acheived a wide, slow ventricular rhythm. This did NOT mean the heart was capable to sustaining life. This was the result of a copious amount of medications that are given to cardiac arrests. At that point, regardless of ROSC, the outcome is almost entirely inevitable that the pt will die considering the delayed CPR, no defibrillation, and bizzare timeline.
with cardiac arrest the first sign is loss of consciousness followed by no pulse no breathing
No. With cardiac arrest, no pulse is the first sign. LOC is just LOC, no breathing is respiratory arrest, and no pulse is cardiac arrest.
Sudden cardiac arrest symptoms are sudden and drastic:
1.Sudden collapse
2.No pulse
3.No breathing
4.Loss of consciousness
Sometimes, other signs and symptoms precede sudden cardiac arrest. These may include fatigue, fainting, blackouts, dizziness, chest pain, shortness of breath, palpitations or vomiting. But sudden cardiac arrest often occurs with no warning.
let me clear loss of consciousness (LOC) simply doesnt mean loss of consciousness, there are many reasons and many signs follow it , cardiac arrest patient USUALLY loses consciousness first than absent pulse and breathing other signs , respiratory arrest and cardiac arrest CAN occur together in clinical practice its hard to distinguish what happen first thats why a general term CARDIOPULMONARY arrest is used
Sudden cardiac arrest symptoms are sudden and drastic:
1.Sudden collapse
2.No pulse
3.No breathing
4.Loss of consciousness
Sometimes, other signs and symptoms precede sudden cardiac arrest. These may include fatigue, fainting, blackouts, dizziness, chest pain, shortness of breath, palpitations or vomiting. But sudden cardiac arrest often occurs with no warning.
let me clear loss of consciousness (LOC) simply doesnt mean loss of consciousness, there are many reasons and many signs follow it , cardiac arrest patient USUALLY loses consciousness first than absent pulse and breathing other signs , respiratory arrest and cardiac arrest CAN occur together in clinical practice its hard to distinguish what happen first thats why a general term CARDIOPULMONARY arrest is used
y
Dead people cannot breath. If you don't have a pulse, you're not breathing. Cardiac=heart arrest=stop. There's no other way around it. Respiratory and cardiac arrest are different. Cardiac arrest is death, respiratory arrest is not death, just no breathing but with a pulse. "Cardiopulmonary Arrest" is not a common term and I personally have never heard anyone use it. However, cardiopulmonary arrest is the same thing as cardiac arrest.
absent pulse doesnt always mean a person is dead , there are many conditions with absent pulse like aortitis , atheroma , coarctation of arota , emboli ,takayasu disease,polyarteritis nodosa,giant cell disease , improper technique to feel the pulse , weak pulse sometimes cannot be felt at all , apparently the patient is still breathing with no palpable pulse,but yes if heart stop beating then there would be no pulse and eventually breathing stops person would die , why i said loss of consciousness first because once heart fails to pump blood , the respiratory centres detect as body running out of oxygen, patient would take deep breath and black outs ,followed by heart stop pumping blood , respiratory rate increases and finally apnea results with no breathing at all
in Michael case if he was breathing with no pulse i doubt he had too weak pulses detectable at that moment by low blood pressure as result of lethal propofol doses
its a huge responsibilty to declare someone dead there are critaria set for more than 7 signs for its diagnosis and thats why only physician certify death after confirmation
respiratory arrest if left untreated within a minute or so, a patient whose breathing has ceased will enter into cardiac arrest. Within a a few more minutes, they will begin to sustain irreversible brain damage. In order to prevent this, it is of the utmost importance that patients in respiratory arrest be diagnosed and treated as quickly as possible. patient with pulse and apnea die if left untreated , in agonal respiration its shallow breathing with no pulse both condition are deadly with the latter having high mortality .but still person is alive for few minutes
about cardio pulmonary arrest here you can read in detail and from this authentic medical site ,which i always ask other members to do , read only authentic medical articles on internet,
the second one about cardiopulmonary arrest during pregnancy , these terms do exist thats why i said cardiac arrest and respiratory arrest sometimes occur to gether or follows eachother a gerenal term cardio-pulmonary arrest is used by doctors take a look
<!-- m -->http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/conte ... /103/3/406<!-- m -->
coming back to the topic ...... @mj2981958 you mention something about marijuana , i remember reading that somewhere too but someone mention it doesnt belong to michael and the family took a notice and inform the investigators , may be thats why it wasnt found in the body , i can only guess
Comments
Thanks for explaining that better, mjj_fan. I'm not well-versed in medical procedures but I can see what you're saying about the discrepancy now, if autopsies are most likely done by centimeters. That actually raises another question about the autopsy report (for me, anyway), because they didn't record it as cm. It reads "measures 69 inches in length." Wouldn't it make more sense to record the cm and avoid having to make the conversion?
Anyway, even from my layman's perspective, I agree that there is way too much that just doesn't make sense in this report, starting with the simple fact that positive ID was made simply by "visual comparison to his California Drivers License." And as someone else pointed out, he was living in Vegas at the time so it's questionable whether that was even current and suitable for comparison.
Something else that struck me funny (non-medical) was the scene description. It says that the bedroom where the decedent had been resting was not his usual bedroom, which was down the hall. If MJ had a doctor coming over every night, why wouldn't he be set up for treatment in his usual bedroom? Why be in this other room? It makes no sense to me unless, of course, this was a staged scene or a room where someone else was being treated. And there's nothing of a personal nature in there. I believe Michael knew photos would be published and after the Neverland nightmare, he was extremely careful to protect his privacy.
Ok, I got it. Thanks!
So, to answer the previous questions on why Murray would have choose to put the I.V line in Michael’s lower limb:
-“ He complained of being dehydrated that night. Do you believe is it possible that dehydration made difficult the arm catheterization, so he had to do it in his leg? ”
Nop, If he would’ve been dehydrated at the point of having his veins collapsed, such procedure is difficult no matter what limbs you choose to catheterize.
-“ If you can leave the I.V in “Stand by” into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn’t be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg.”
Since every move would be absolutely painful, keep on doing your everyday activities (rehearsing in this case) with an open catheter is just IMPOSSIBLE, NO WAY (that's why I warned about the silliness of the first question!).
-“ If you can’t leave the catheter, you put the line in the leg to keep hidden not the line, but the punctures. They would’ve been a lot of punctures in different stages of healing.”
Possible, yet put-on/remove-off the catheter on a daily basis is very painful for the patient and you need to find a new place/vassel to catheterize each time (in this case, every night).
So after your answers I assume that Dr. Murray wanted to keep the punctures hidden, or he had to start with the lower limbs veins because he already used the veins of his upper limbs. Any other ideas?
But i want to add something , i mention height measurements in cm mostly but not always , few forensic pathologist prefer cm others inches ,but i admit there are chances of making errors and its something not unusual , but in this high profile case the autopsy lasted 7 hours versus normal which take 3 hours maximum , so i believe they did a thorough examination here is a link of regular autopsy sheet you can view it
<!-- m -->http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... en&ct=clnk<!-- m -->
@ gema NO its not done by students its by forensic pathologist in criminal cases and pathologist resident and seniour doctors in in-hospital set up , students can only observe or assist the physicians
To answer your last question i need to know exactly how many days mj was on propofol , and then count the puncture wounds as mention in the report, while examining the wounds, description must be accurate in every detail and situation should be noted with reference to fixed anatomical points , various terms are used to describe severity of an injury , whether a wound is due to accident , suicide or murder is determined by a synthesis of different findings including its nature , severity , site , position of body clothing and other collateral police finding
One thing worth mentioning ,post mortem finding should never be discussed and reporters should be refered to the police press liasison officer . i remember reading a case back in 1957 when the victim of Evans and Allens who were the last 2 criminals in Uk to hang , had been battered and stabbed, at no time during the investigation was the stabbing mention until alluded to , incriminatingly by Evans in his statement to police .
What i know these autopsy reports become public records if some crime is involve OR once on going investigation is done , now you can think either ways ! to me it seems when the report was released the invesigation was completed , but then trials should have begun much earlier but why they keep on saying its an on going investigation i dont get it
Although its unethical to release autopsy pictures to public besides above all not everyone bear to view them but i have been told both autopsy report and pictures of criminal nature is a public record in United states and probably that was the reason Ms Katherine was much concerned about it
but if some one wants to be 100% sure of that he /she can email and get L.A coroner s opinion on releasing the pictures
Thanks for the link. I saw the standard measurements but as you said, I guess it's up to the person doing the autopsy and what they're comfortable with. I really appreciate you and others with medical knowledge giving input here. I feel at such a disadvantage not knowing the terminology and it takes forever to google and make sense of everything. Even then, I can't deduce the "intangibles" that someone with experience can bring to the discussion. Thanks again!
@ mj2981958 why did you underline those 3 paragraphs ? did someone ask you those question just wondering but in anycase you might have read all the links i mention above , if the puncture wounds were by i.v lines i dont think dorsum of foot specially a site between big toe and second digit make sense , like i said earlier , its a very poor decision on anyones part to have cannula at or near joint , plus the importance of venous cut down or CVP lines comes when patient is collapsed by dehydration or whatever reason plus with no superficial veins , uum venous cut down comes first Cvp only done by physicians ,in in- hospital settings and in complicated cases
Lol! What a mess! <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
Look, I was interested on why did Murray choose Michael's leg to start an I.V line, since the upper limbs are the most common site to do it. Before make my questions, I needed to know this:
You replied me this:
Then I made my questions, guessing why did Murray such a thing. I could only think in these 3 options:
Your reply was:
And this one:
So, from both of your responses, and after reading the links you provide me, I got the answers to my 3 previous questions, and reach my conclusion:
^ I re-posted my 3 questions, now with the answers I got after reading your stuff, to avoid misunderstandings... But aparently I misunderstood the info, so LadyMedic corrected me (thank you!):
Anyway, I wanted to clarify that in these old thread mjj_fan gave me the link, people were saying that I.V are very, very painful. But I dunno, because I never had one of these into my veins, so I was honestly asking <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
And that's all. I hope it's clear now.
Thank you all for clear this up for me, and you can blame me and my english for any confusion! <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
There cannot be arthritis in your fingernails, since there are no joints that can be affected.
I think the original poster confused it with the discoloration.
Somewhere I think we should appreciate the original author for the time and effort she put in here believe me reading all 50 plus pages and then interpretation of medical terminology is not an easy task for a lay man , Its really bad some body misguided her and thats how i felt the need to clear misunderstanding so that everyone should know the facts , just like fews days back i was truely disguisted by an author writing a book exclusively on the drugs found in Micheal body during autopsy ,Im sure he must have made alot of money what he sold half truth ? will he ever confess of not doing a thorough research before making something available to public , so sad ...please dont waste your precious time and money reading rubbish
By keeping an open mind to any possibilty , there is a chance of with -holding certain information for the court trails thats why few things still missing in this report , it just my personal opinion ,at the end of the day its up to everyone to decide what they believe
Im hoping someone from the media reading my post, will write about Dr Klein and Murray lies instead of dissecting his personal life , I clearly remember dr Klein said about an open I.v line at TMZ live during his first interview, post 25th june , and there wasnt anything mention in this report , if someone would do it, that day i will feel my efforts didnt go in vain ! they can take the credit for it i dont mind ,but please stop writing and misleading others, Take care members , Godbless you all
Let's say Murray injected propofol to "Michael" and it had a bad reaction due to the amount of drugs he was given during the night...propofol acts in less than a minute...
I'm not a medic but I can 100% say it IS NOT POSSIBLE to have a heart attack and still have pulse and breath after 47 MINUTES!
The media broke news , Micheal was in coma later on he suffers cardiac arrest and then ....
They said he was in cardiac arrest, but Murray was away from Michael for 47' .. How can someone be in a coma for 47 minutes and still have pulse and breath without medical assistance? ...
There are many possible causes of cardiac arrest. They include coronary heart disease, heart attack, electrocution, drowning, or choking. There may not be a known cause to the cardiac arrest.
Without medical attention, the person will die within a few minutes. People are less likely to die if they have early cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and defibrillation. Defibrillation is delivering an electric shock to restore the heart rhythm to normal. he need an urgent " effective " CPR and call for help unlike 47 delay , compression on beds with one hand beneath and other on chest by the person doing it for the very first time ..... sigh
Coma is totally a different identity , there are 4 grades of coma , but not going in to detail let me tell you its simply means lack of consciousness
Well I know it is different but that's why he entered in a coma, because he didn't receive any medical assistance. For everyone else who is not familiar with these terms:
A cardiac arrest is different from (but may be caused by) a heart attack, where blood flow to the muscle of the heart is impaired.
Arrested blood circulation prevents delivery of oxygen to the body. Lack of oxygen to the brain causes loss of consciousness, which then results in abnormal or absent breathing. Brain injury is likely if cardiac arrest goes untreated for more than five minutes. For the best chance of survival and neurological recovery, immediate and decisive treatment is imperative.
Cardiac arrest is a medical emergency that, in certain situations is potentially reversible if treated early.
Chain of survival
Several organisations promote the idea of a "chain of survival" The links are:
Early recognition - If possible, recognition of illness before the patient develops a cardiac arrest will allow the rescuer to prevent its occurrence. Early recognition that a cardiac arrest has occurred is key to survival - for every minute a patient is in cardiac arrest, their chances of survival drop by roughly 10%.
Early CPR - improves blood and oxygen flow to vital organs and an essential component of treating a cardiac arrest. In particular, by keeping the brain supplied with oxygenated blood, chances of neurological damage are decreased.
Early defibrillation - is effective for the management of ventricular fibrillation and pulseless ventricular tachycardia If defibrillation is delayed the rhythm is likely to degenerate into asystole for which outcomes are worse.
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So I don't know how could he still have pulse after 47 minutes .......
Also I found this information:
Ventilation
Tracheal intubation has not been found to improve survival rates in cardiac arrest cases. A 2009 study has found that assisted ventilation may worsen outcomes over placement of an oral airway with passive oxygen delivery. ......
those who slip into coma have pulse and normal breathing drive , with cardiac arrest the first sign is loss of consciousness followed by no pulse no breathing
Michael Jackson Cardiac Arrest and Die
by Teh Obenks on Jun.26, 2009, under Celebrities
Michael Jackson is dead? How Did Michael Jackson Die? Well, after suffering a cardiac arrest, the King of Pop went under a deep coma and later on declared dead by the staff hospital. The death of Michael Jackson.
Pop star Michael Jackson has died at age 50 after suffering a cardiac arrest, according to media reports.
Los Angeles TV station KTLA reports that Los Angeles fire officials said they responded to a 911 call at Jackson’s home and that Jackson wasn’t breathing when they arrived; paramedics performed CPR and rushed him to UCLA Medical Center, although the hospital, due to privacy rules, could not confirm that.
In a cardiac arrest, the heart stops working properly. A cardiac arrest is not the same as a heart attack, but it can happen because of a heart attack, notes Douglas Zipes, MD, MACC, distinguished professor at Indiana University School of Medicine and past president of the American College of Cardiology.
Zipes explains that “cardiac arrest is a heart rhythm disturbance when the bottom chamber of the heart, the ventricles, beat an at extremely rapid rate — 4 to 600 times a minute.”
Zipes says that heart rhythm “prevents that bottom chamber from effective contraction and pumping blood to the brain and to the rest of the body, and death results if it’s not reversed within four or five minutes, generally.”
As mjj_fan stated, a heart attack and cardiac arrest are entire different. You can even have a heart attack and not even know it and you'll just continue on with your life. MJ did NOT have a heart attack.
Now, the timeline for when MJ apparently died to when Murray walked in the room is still essentially undetermined. Murray claims there was a pulse. Do I believe this? Not for a gosh darn second. Ultimately, when the paramedics arrived, he has no pulse and remained with no pulse throughout their time with him. At UCLA, staff acheived a wide, slow ventricular rhythm. This did NOT mean the heart was capable to sustaining life. This was the result of a copious amount of medications that are given to cardiac arrests. At that point, regardless of ROSC, the outcome is almost entirely inevitable that the pt will die considering the delayed CPR, no defibrillation, and bizzare timeline.
No. With cardiac arrest, no pulse is the first sign. LOC is just LOC, no breathing is respiratory arrest, and no pulse is cardiac arrest.
Edit because my quote didn't quote right.
1.Sudden collapse
2.No pulse
3.No breathing
4.Loss of consciousness
Sometimes, other signs and symptoms precede sudden cardiac arrest. These may include fatigue, fainting, blackouts, dizziness, chest pain, shortness of breath, palpitations or vomiting. But sudden cardiac arrest often occurs with no warning.
let me clear loss of consciousness (LOC) simply doesnt mean loss of consciousness, there are many reasons and many signs follow it , cardiac arrest patient USUALLY loses consciousness first than absent pulse and breathing other signs , respiratory arrest and cardiac arrest CAN occur together in clinical practice its hard to distinguish what happen first thats why a general term CARDIOPULMONARY arrest is used
in Michael case if he was breathing with no pulse i doubt he had too weak pulses detectable at that moment by low blood pressure as result of lethal propofol doses
its a huge responsibilty to declare someone dead there are critaria set for more than 7 signs for its diagnosis and thats why only physician certify death after confirmation
here is a link for those interested to read
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respiratory arrest if left untreated within a minute or so, a patient whose breathing has ceased will enter into cardiac arrest. Within a a few more minutes, they will begin to sustain irreversible brain damage. In order to prevent this, it is of the utmost importance that patients in respiratory arrest be diagnosed and treated as quickly as possible. patient with pulse and apnea die if left untreated , in agonal respiration its shallow breathing with no pulse both condition are deadly with the latter having high mortality .but still person is alive for few minutes
about cardio pulmonary arrest here you can read in detail and from this authentic medical site ,which i always ask other members to do , read only authentic medical articles on internet,
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the second one about cardiopulmonary arrest during pregnancy , these terms do exist thats why i said cardiac arrest and respiratory arrest sometimes occur to gether or follows eachother a gerenal term cardio-pulmonary arrest is used by doctors take a look
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