Hmm, sunset. It's possible. But if that were the case, I wonder why he didn't post it on the thread(s) devoted to the news reports of Joe's stroke? There were many people on those threads wondering if it were true and hoping these were false reports and wishing Mr. Jackson the best just in case. Yet he came to the TIAI thread where we are predominantly tossing around the DWD theory and waiting for TS, who supports the DWD theory, to post the completion of Level 7, to give us a sign that reports of Joe's stroke was BS? Most of us think TS/TS_comments?Front all work for the same team, Front must have known what TS_comments was about to post... so I don't know.
@bec...I DO see what you're saying as far as your interpretation of what TS could've meant....but I still interpret it differently (and of course, I may be wrong). ANY plan...any good plan anyway, will have several backup options due to unexpected stuff happening causing the 'initial' plan to backfire. TS highlighted that there were 2 DWD patients with 'unknown' death locations listed from WA...and suggested (although couldn't/didn't concretely prove) that 1 of those patients was Plan A, the other Plan B (if something else caused Plan A to not work), and then Plan C would've been the dummy. Meaning, IF ALL else fails (i.e. the 'initial' plan or even backup plan), then they would have to resort to the dummy....which was NOT 'ideal' (for all the reasons already given by TS and others). There were some VERY strong points against the use of a dummy (you, yourself, chose to list points for Live MJ theory over the dummy)....there IS evidence suggesting that a dummy was NOT used and there are 'logical' reasons as to why a dummy would not have been ideal to use. <br /><br />I just think that IF the FBI is involved (and many signs point to that)....there would've been NO way that they'd advise Mike to do ANYTHING that day that could compromise the mission....a mission MANY years in the making. Thinking along those lines...there are SO many things that could've gone wrong with using a dummy or having Mike play the part himself. Of course, using a DWD patient/corpse carries risk too...as would ANY option used that day. But when everything is factored in....a corpse DOES pose the least amount of risk and it DOES involve having the least amount of people in on it. The greatest risk, IMO, would be that someone recognizes that 'it' doesn't look like Mike. Well, that DID happen (whether or not the convo between Blount and the stalker fan actually happened doesn't even matter...what matters is that it was widely reported that Blount DID say that and no one even blinked). <br /><br />I know some just don't see the 'logic' of it all....and that's fine, we're not all going to agree. We can keep discussing it til the cows come home and we won't be able to figure it all out until after BAM...and maybe not even fully then. Maybe the whole thing has been one huge mindf*ck and the FBI isn't even involved lol....but that would contradict a whole lot of what happened....a slew of 'dots' along the way point to FBI involvement. And if the FBI IS involved, then I can definitely see the 'logic' in them choosing a corpse over a dummy and/or Live MJ (again, based on all the reasons already discussed by many).<br /><br />Again, I have NO clue what happened 'that day'...just trying to make sense of things like everyone else. But the fact remains that IF a dummy OR Live MJ was actually used, the 'script' DID call for a hospice patient theory to be in the mix (for some strange reason) WAY before TS even showed up on the scene (refer back to BOTH EMT's testimonies of 'that day'). I can't figure out a 'logical' reason WHY the script would call for EMT's who were in the know (and they would have to be if EITHER a dummy or Live MJ was used)...to make it seem like ANYTHING other than Mike was dying or dead 'that day', when the whole point of June 25th was to make the world believe that Mike had, in fact, died.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.
<br />I don't see the problem with a DWD patient. The patient was dying, and was going to die soon. If the patient was going to agree to participate in the DWD program, then maybe they wanted to help Michael out. Michael explained to them the reason for hoaxing his death and the person agreed to it. Michael/FBI would NOT have forced the DWD patient to do this, obviously. They could've easily said no.<br />
<br /><br />Furthermore as per TS Michael only could chose date and time the rest was ONLY FBI's issues, so please AGAIN don't blame Michael in case a DWD patient was used in this hoax, DWD patient was gonna die anyway and what they did was lengthened his life some more days.
Could anyone who believes TS_comments and supports the DWD patient theory explain this supportive evidence that he presented? Can anyone make sense of this? If a dummy is a viable ' emergency plan C', then why is it necessary to use a real person who just died at all?<br /><br />Also, why did this person need an alleged date of death if they really did die on 6/25/09?<br /><br />Remembering back to reports that were made on and following 6/25/09, I remember it being said that the temperature in the bedroom was extremely high. This of course would only confirm to most that Michael was “sick” as had been alleged by many of his fans around him during those last days; saying that he was dressed at rehearsals in layers and layers of clothes, always cold, etc. (to me, he seemed to be wearing some kind of protective shield rather than lots of clothing) Anyway, time of death on scene is usually determined by how quickly the body cools down. If the room is excessively hot, the body temperature would not drop normally. That being the case, the body could have been kept preserved until just the right time for the hoax to begin. Recalling that the paramedics actually asserted that they did not get a pulse, etc. but kept up appearances for Katherine’s sake and did not call the death until she reached UCLA, it would be an alleged date as well as an alleged time of death. No one really knows because there were too many incidentals involving time parameters. On the other hand, if people are willing to accept and believe that a fresh Michael Jackson was buried almost 3 months after death then anything is possible. :smiley-vault-misc-150:<br /><br />I am still waiting for someone to confirm if there were 2 ambulances seen at different times at the residence on 6/25. If that was the case, possibly one was to bring the body to Carolwood and the other to remove it. So alleged date could mean that this body deceased prior to 12:00 a.m. on 6/25/09 but could not be verified positively because the room was so hot. Has anyone ever thought that maybe a body and a dummy were used interchangeably; the body for the purpose of the paramedics, hospital, etc. and a dummy for photos and as needed? I ask because of the physical discrepancies given by people who testified.<br />
Thriller4ever, I responded to you here, but maybe you saw it and it wasn’t what you were looking for:<br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430596.html#msg430596<br /><br />Bec, well now that you connect Front’s gif posted RIGHT before TS’s response and proofs (I don't believe connected to Joe's health), that does add a distinct measure of ‘playing with us’ before ‘snapping his fingers’ and then bam. I’ll admit my initial response to TS adding the disclaimer at the bottom of ‘playing devil’s advocate’ was the same thing as putting in ‘alleged’ twice in the courtroom. And the purpose of that ‘alleged’ was to nullify the previous judgement of CM being ‘Guilty’ of manslaughter. Not far away from my mind is the alternative pronunciation of ‘man’s laughter’. I really don’t know what to do with all this except to ‘Keep watching’. It ain’t over till it’s over. We’re not going to wring a clearer answer from TS until he’s ready to do so. Afterall, maybe he doesn’t want anyone to leave here upset that it was a DWD patient or because the riddle is solved/investigation over, yet he wants to keep the edge/controversy going to keep things red hot. Red hot has generally been MJ’s modus operandi. The basis of many a thriller movie is that the audience is led to think one way throughout and wham they’re hit with a totally different reason/’reality’ that was going on. Which reminds me that if this is Thriller 2 here and MJ’s eating popcorn in the theatre showing Thriller and MJ-werewolf, then it’s a show within a show, within a show and the ending leaves you happy but uncertain. <br /><br /><br />I lean towards DWD being what happened, but the 3rd dummy option keeps any 'others' reading here besides us, some measure of safe uncertainty. Perhaps that's how MJ's kept his enemies at bay all these years, especially as he worked closely and directly with even those who could be secretly out to destroy him if they see a crack of opportunity somewhere. He is a master chess player, even with us. But you're not mad at him for doing this, are you, Bec?<br /><br />Or if I was a bystander watching a game of logic between two debaters, from my vantage it seems that the logic for the DWD seems a little more supported than for the dummy. My biggest personal reason for wishing he had not used a DWD is because of the, you said the word 'using' him and his death, and 'using' sounds selfish and MJ needs to clear negative monster images out of the public's mind. But then that's emotions, and emotions should not be the determining factor. We humans have been conditioned by all kinds of cultural and religious influences for thousands of years.<br />
<br />And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.<br />
<br /><br />He still said that he considers the DWD patient to be a much lower risk than a dummy:<br /><br />
on 1353700985:
<br />Nevertheless, although I have never worked for the FBI in any capacity, yet it is my personal assessment that DWD is a much lower risk than a dummy. I have already gone over the appearance confusing factors with MJ, as well as with the DWD patient, so I won’t repeat them now; and I have already mentioned that reports of a patient, who does not look like MJ, would not spoil the hoax—since that actually happened, and nobody cared. And even if someone had a serious problem with a real patient, that did not look like MJ, it would be easy to explain that the real patient was a distraction factor—since real patients are readily available at UCLA, any time of any day.<br />
<br /><br />Therefore my understanding is that TS doesn't work for the FBI lol and that he doesn't know how the FBI planned all of this in detail. He is bringing forward a theory like us. If the 2 patients backed out and there wasn't enough time left to have a 3rd one and the Hoax having to start they must have had an emergency plan C because it couldn't happen another day, it absolutely had to be that day. So in the last resort they would use a dummy and adapt a proper protocol. Which could have maybe not included the UCLA ride for example. This is just a big ASSumption here but it's just to give an idea of how the scenario would change if a dummy had been used instead of a DWD patient. <br /><br />I think that “alleged victim” and “alleged date” cover both the DWD patient and the fact that it wasn’t MJ as everybody was thinking. Therefore the date too had to be alleged.<br />
<br />Hmm, sunset. It's possible. But if that were the case, I wonder why he didn't post it on the thread(s) devoted to the news reports of Joe's stroke? There were many people on those threads wondering if it were true and hoping these were false reports and wishing Mr. Jackson the best just in case. Yet he came to the TIAI thread where we are predominantly tossing around the DWD theory and waiting for TS, who supports the DWD theory, to post the completion of Level 7, to give us a sign that reports of Joe's stroke was BS? Most of us think TS/TS_comments?Front all work for the same team, Front must have known what TS_comments was about to post... so I don't know.<br />
<br /><br />He posted on the TS thread because we were talking about Mr. Jackson's stroke on TS thread too plus the impatience we were having expecting TS' replies, Front killed two birds with one stone.
<br />Good, because I've been enjoying all this immensely! And boy can I ever smell smoke from all the brains fired up and working hard! :icon_lol:<br />
<br /><br />Yah me too. I really dig this stuff. <br /><br />I wear my heart on my sleeve, it's a character flaw, but I wouldn't trade this journey for anything.
<br />It's actually funny to see the progression of things here....human nature at its finest. People have constantly asked TS to 'help' us figure stuff out, which he has repeatedly done. So, he helps by giving us supporting evidence in favor of the corpse theory, while showing some points against other theories....ALL of which everyone was free to then research on their own, without taking his word for it. Reaction: People don't believe him.
<br /><br />With respect BTC, I'm beginning to think it is not a negative thing. TS encouraged us in the past (can't find the quote) to doubt and not trust him in order to find truth. (not verbatim) <br /><br />He encouraged this reaction.<br /><br /><br />Edit: BTC, I saw your comment re: encourage us to doubt him, on top of page 137 after I did this post :icon_e_wink:<br /><br />
<br />It doesn't matter one bit what our personal views are about a DWD patient having been used....nor does it matter if we believe this is what happened or not. And that's all that keeps getting posted by those who don't believe TS....page after page of personal opinions and NO solid evidence against anything TS said.
<br /><br />Again, with respect. a) TS can't provide solid proof of body either. b) He precursored it with DA.<br /><br />Also the disagreement with body theory (speaking for me anyways) has nothing to do with DWD opinion. Its about the doubt that has been created / encouraged by TS combined with no conclusive 'evidence' to eliminate entirely other theories or substantiate his theories. They are all just theories still with no solid evidence. Which I might add, 'evidence' or rather the 'lack of' has been a running theme through this entire hoax.<br /><br />Moving on to Bec's comment previously that "The purpose isn't to find out what happened". It then makes me wonder if the (TS's) purpose is to simply create a split / multiple groups of people holding to their theories, for the simple reason of a) MJ's delight in us not knowing what really happened. You know, post Bam and all that, and you still have groups of people racking their brains how it was done. b) 'A magician never reveals his tricks' to maintain some mystery about how he did it. (Trademark MJ)<br /><br />If a corpse, body, dummy, live MJ was used, it is inconsequential to 'how hoaxers feel' ... its all the same goal - entertainment / Mystery <br /><br />
on 1354395465:
<br />It seems that the old 'have-everybody-in-on-it' cop out clause has been replaced by an 'it-was-FBI-so-we'll-never-understand' excuse, when facing the unexplainable.[/size] I'm not trying to be awkward here, I really am stuck. I'll shut up now!<br />
<br /><br />@ Curls, agree with you. FBI involvement card is justification for everything / anything as well as a "shut down" for any non-explainables.<br /><br /><br />I do agree that MJ has friends in high places. The PR photos speak for themselves. Personally I am very iffy on FBI and Obama involvement. (If I am wrong, then so be it)<br /><br />MJ is the master the driver if you will. He is in control and no doubt we know MJ is ALWAYS the star of the show. It just raised questions for me such as, : If this is for entertainment purposes, Thriller II, greatest show on earth etc, would MJ want to source the assistance of FBI / Obama? Historically, MJ is a one man show. If this was for entertainment purposes, wouldn't Obama involvement for Obama himself be risky (PR wise)? <br /><br />However IT does sound logical, and IT does sound like MJ to have lots of uncertainty surrounding him all different tangents going off at once to create mystery and secrecy and keep us watching. MJ has never in the past said, oh "I was faking it in the wheel chair" or "Let me explain this publicity stunt" or "Ok, I'll reveal how I manipulated you here" He has always left us guessing.<br /><br />I think the purpose of the whole dummy / Live MJ / body / FBI / clues and guessing game is to create confusion, uncertainty and preserve mystery. We don't know all of what happenned 25/6 but we do KNOW it is what MJ does. (Confusion / Uncertainty) It's why ppl are still talking about Pepsi incident in 2012. It's why we still talk about the hyperbaric chamber, its why people say he was frail and deathly around TII and yet others say in immaculate health and form.<br /><br />Deliberate confusion. That is all.
I seriously think we've all passed that period when he was teaching us to think for ourselves!<br />
<br /><br />With respect Sim, I don't think that lesson EVER has an expiry date...<br /><br />
on 1354432023:
<br />As Paris once said: "Why can't you just believe!?"<br />
<br /><br />Again, with respect, "So we should believe everything TS, The Jackson Family say, when all together everything that different family members say amongst themselves and then further combined with what TS says is all contradiction of each other? I believe her comment is simply regarding MJ not being dead. Not about theories or TS or even what family say because it's all a jumble.<br /><br />
on 1354437022:
<br />
on 1354432023:
<br />1. I highly doubt that TS is only playing with us right now! There's no tIME left for games and for "lessons" now!<br />
<br /><br />@Sim, one could argue that this is the ideal time to 'play' with us - to cause the very disturbance that is now apparent .... before the climax! Can't be having us all quietly sitting here drumming our fingers! But I'm not going to labour the point! What happened happened, what will be will be. My thoughts, and those of anyone else here, make not one jot of difference in the great scheme of things.<br />
<br /><br /><br /><br />@ curls. I think you are spot on. Perfect time to create FRESH doubt / uncertainty. Breathe new life into old theories.<br /><br />Afterall he mentioned it recently that he might lead us down the wrong path or verify things that didn't really happen. I am guessing if one was just about to serve answers on a silver platter, you don't deliberately create doubt just before you get the answers... It like hearing your teacher give out the answers at the end of a test so you can grade yourself, (like in elementary school) and the teacher says "Ok, the correct answer question to the algebra question MIGHT be "8" " LOL <br /><br /> :icon_mrgreen:<br /><br /><br />Bec<br />
There are people here who supported the dead body theory or the DWD theory, why didn't he ask them to lay out their reasons?
<br /><br />I tend to think that Body theory was the least popular and naturally most controversial. TS laying out answers for Body theory has given body theory new life, more popularity and now there are people who believe body theory that didn't before, they were solid on other theories. Goal: Confusion / uncertainty. Result: Achieved!<br /><br />Sounds like our MJ huh?<br /><br />Why did we ever think TS was going to give us answers on the correct theory (dummy / live or whatever it may be) Of course he is going to give us the answers on the false theory... Trademark MJ - Manipulate / Play with audience..<br /><br />The more I think of it the more sense it makes that he would confirm an incorrect theory! (That's if one believes MJ is behind TS or at the least someone from MJ camp)<br /><br />Meh, I reconcile TS body theory confirmation with "It's all a game / entertainment" and is more than likely another 'falsehood' which is "allowed" in the rules of entertainment / art / ARG.<br /><br /><br />Re: Heart on sleeve. It's not a flaw. It's honesty. I am much the same :icon_e_wink:<br />
@Aussie...thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have shared mine in many, many posts lol...so I'm not going to rehash it all again (this back and forth over the SAME points is getting tiring, at least for me). But will say that you've taken some things I've said out of context...i.e. I never said that disagreeing was a 'negative' thing, in fact, I said the complete opposite in a further post...perhaps you missed it.<br /><br />As for MJ having pulled all this off on his own (cause 'he's a one-man show'), without the help of some high-ranking govt office(s), IMO, is the 'loftiest' theory yet when ALL the events of the last 3 1/2 years are taken into account. But I guess anything's possible.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.
<br />@Aussie...thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have shared mine in many, many posts lol...so I'm not going to rehash it all again (this back and forth over the SAME points is getting tiring, at least for me). But will say that you've taken some things I've said out of context...i.e. I never said that disagreeing was a 'negative' thing, in fact, I said the complete opposite in a further post...perhaps you missed it.<br />
<br /><br />I know hun. I just edited my post before you did this post above. Please see edit note on my post.<br /><br />Na not taking it out of context. Never said *you said* it was a negative thing. I was thinking to me "perhaps its not a negative thing" because of reason X that TS gave in the past.<br /><br /> :smiley_abuv:<br /><br /><br />It is tiring. I'm not intending to debate. Trust me don't have the energy, not up for it as its stinking hot here in Australia, LOL. I'm more commenting that perhaps the "debate / uncertainty" is the purpose rather than "solving it".<br /><br /><br />
<br />As for MJ having pulled all this off on his own (cause 'he's a one-man show'), without the help of some high-ranking govt office(s), IMO, is the 'loftiest' theory yet when ALL the events of the last 3 1/2 years are taken into account. But I guess anything's possible.<br />
<br /><br />Agree he would need resources and resources with pull. Absolutely court / UCLA / Autopsy perhaps or perhaps not. I find Obama / FBI far fetched. If hoax plans started in Bad era, how could he have known who was going to be president in hoax period? Again, happy to be wrong. If I am, I am ok with that.<br /><br />LOVE YOU MJ - THANKS FOR THE SHOW!!!! :bearhug:<br />
@Aussie, haha...I didn't see your 'edit' before I hit send :icon_razz:<br /><br />Ya, very tiring and I'm one of the ones 'okay' with the corpse theory lol, go figure. If it is all just for confusion/distraction, we do it to ourselves...and we've become masters at it :icon_lol:<br /><br />Be grateful for the heat...I'm freezing my a$$ off here!<br /><br /> :smiley_abuv:<br /><br />Edit: This time I saw your post before sending mine lol. I'm not convinced of an Obama connection either...but I do think there's been several pieces pointing to FBI involvement.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.<br />
<br />Hmm, sunset. It's possible. But if that were the case, I wonder why he didn't post it on the thread(s) devoted to the news reports of Joe's stroke? There were many people on those threads wondering if it were true and hoping these were false reports and wishing Mr. Jackson the best just in case. Yet he came to the TIAI thread where we are predominantly tossing around the DWD theory and waiting for TS, who supports the DWD theory, to post the completion of Level 7, to give us a sign that reports of Joe's stroke was BS? Most of us think TS/TS_comments?Front all work for the same team, Front must have known what TS_comments was about to post... so I don't know.<br />
<br /><br /><br />OMG OMG OMG now I actually GET the popcorn pic.... Its all making sense.... TS confirmed wrong theory deliberately! I think you are right Bec...<br /><br />I was the one who suggested popcorn pic was confirmation Joe was ok, and what the hell would I know?!?! (But no didn't ask for a sign)<br /><br /><br />P.s Sorry for post bombing this thread peeps. Pls forgive. x
@Aussie: With respect, I think we agreed to disagree... the other day... <br />Yet you quote me today.... and I'm not gonna reply to that.<br /><br /> I just don't like endless contradictions, I don't like where this is going to.<br />I hope we can both continue to post on this thread our own different opinions without any of that ^^ <br /><br />@Curls said very well earlier today: "What happened happened, what will be will be. My thoughts, and those of anyone else here, make not one jot of difference in the great scheme of things."<br /><br />
<br />@Aussie: With respect, I think we agreed to disagree... the other day... <br />Yet you quote me today.... and I'm not gonna reply to that.<br />
<br /><br />Hun, that's what we do on the forum we quote and reply. It's not malicious. I was pointing out that there is a counter viewpoint to "thinking for yourself" I can assure you I am being genuine. If anyone else had made the comment I would have quoted it. I mean no harm.<br /><br />
<br />I hope we can both continue to post on this thread our own different opinions without any of that ^^ <br />
<br /><br />Sim, You're the queen of quote / repsond. (not being facetious) That's why I thought you'd be ok with that style of interaction. But if I am getting that you are not ok with it then I'll be more careful how I interact with you and be more sensitive.<br /><br /> :bearhug:<br />
As for the alleged date - the DWD patient could have ingested the medication and died the day/night prior on June 24th so therefore June 25th is an "alleged" date.<br /><br />The popcorn gif Front posted here ......I just took it as him being a smart a*se and making fun of so many of us waiting in anticipation for TS to post...some had been hanging on all day lol.....if it does mean something else then maybe I am just cold hearted and didn't read it that way..<br /><br />We could go round and round and round for ever with these musings....could be another Level perhaps :icon_lol: except I don't have any remaining energy to try to work out what that popcorn gif meant :icon_lol: :over-react-smiley:<br /><br />
<br />Hmm, sunset. It's possible. But if that were the case, I wonder why he didn't post it on the thread(s) devoted to the news reports of Joe's stroke? There were many people on those threads wondering if it were true and hoping these were false reports and wishing Mr. Jackson the best just in case. Yet he came to the TIAI thread where we are predominantly tossing around the DWD theory and waiting for TS, who supports the DWD theory, to post the completion of Level 7, to give us a sign that reports of Joe's stroke was BS? Most of us think TS/TS_comments?Front all work for the same team, Front must have known what TS_comments was about to post... so I don't know.<br />
<br /><br /><br />OMG OMG OMG now I actually GET the popcorn pic.... Its all making sense.... TS confirmed wrong theory deliberately! I think you are right Bec...<br /><br />I was the one who suggested popcorn pic was confirmation Joe was ok, and what the hell would I know?!?! (But no didn't ask for a sign)<br /><br /><br />P.s Sorry for post bombing this thread peeps. Pls forgive. x<br />
<br /><br />Don't apologize, rather, please continue. It's a message board. What kind of place would it be if people all posted one time and then left?? A no fun place that's what kind.<br /><br />MAYBE that's what the popcorn gif was about, yes, sure, maybe he waiting to see our reaction to this allegedly contrived theory and was looking forward to it. I think we can all agree that he wasn't happily chomping popcorn over the prospects of the dearly departed being officially introduced to his dear hoaxers for the first time, that's for sure.<br /><br />On the topic of FBI involvement and the signs for that, the only sign that I can think of off the top of my head is the 7 files and 333 pages of FBI files released on 12/21/09. I agree one key person needed to be cooperating with MJ to make that happen. Also, I agree that the FBI may have been contacted to grant clearance and give permission (basically) for some aspects of the hoax, court being one of them I would imagine. But as far as the FBI conducting a sting, is there anyone who supports this theory who can provide a list of reasons, or signs, of an FBI sting operation like I did for the LiveMJ theory?
@Adi: rigor mortis makes it not possible to entubulate a patient. It would have to be done before rigor set in (minutes) or after it subsided (many hours-day). A body that is a day old is going to bloat n smell n leak. They would be working with a pretty short window of opportunity.
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