By LINDA DEUTSCH and THOMAS WATKINS, Associated Press Writers Linda Deutsch And Thomas Watkins, Associated Press Writers – Fri Jul 3, 12:38 am ET
LOS ANGELES – The investigation of Michael Jackson’s death is widening as questions intensify about the drugs he took, the doctors who provided them and the actions of police.
Why didn’t police seal the mansion where he had been living? Why were moving vans seen at the home, and were any items removed before police wrapped up their search? Why didn’t they get immediate search warrants? Why did they tow away a doctor’s car right after the death but not declare the home a crime scene?
Los Angeles police say proper procedures were followed based on the circumstances officers encountered when they were called to the home at 12:21 p.m. on June 25. A doctor was attending to Jackson and stayed with him when he was placed in an ambulance at 1:07 p.m. There was no sign of foul play.
Others say police should have assumed it was possible a crime occurred and taken precautions to ensure the scene was not disrupted so evidence wasn’t lost or tainted.
“If I was the chief detective on the case, I would have said, ‘We don’t know what’s going on. We should seal the scene,’” said defense attorney Harland Braun, who has represented celebrities including Robert Blake, Roseanne and Gary Busey. “You always have to think of the worst-case scenario and you have to think fast. I would have sealed the scene just because it was Michael Jackson.”
Whether the Jackson probe turns into a criminal investigation hinges on what evidence emerges involving the drugs. Charges could be brought if authorities determine Jackson had been overly prescribed medications, if he had been given drugs inappropriate for his medical needs, or if doctors knowingly prescribed Jackson medications under an assumed name.
It’s still not known what caused Jackson’s death at age 50. The pop star went into cardiac arrest in his bedroom and his personal physician, Dr. Conrad Murray, performed CPR while an ambulance was called, according to Murray’s lawyers. Murray has spoken to police and authorities say he is not a suspect, though his actions have come under scrutiny because his own lawyers acknowledge it may have taken up to a half-hour for an ambulance to be summoned.
An autopsy was conducted but results are not expected for several weeks. The Jackson family had a second autopsy performed and those results also are pending.
On Wednesday, The Associated Press learned Los Angeles police asked the Drug Enforcement Administration to assist in the investigation.
DEA agents participated in the investigation of the 2007 overdose death of Anna Nicole Smith at a Florida hotel. California Attorney General Jerry Brown investigated her former boyfriend and two of her doctors.
Brown handed the investigation over to the Los Angeles district attorney’s office, which filed charges of conspiring to provide Smith with prescription drugs.
Brown said the suspects broke the law because Smith was a “known addict.” The former boyfriend and doctors denied the charges.
The DEA also probed whether painkillers found in actor Heath Ledger‘s system after his death last year were obtained illegally. Federal prosecutors did not charge anyone.
Jean Rosenbluth, a University of Southern California law professor, said the agency’s involvement in the Jackson case suggests authorities are looking into whether drugs came from out of state. Murray lives in Las Vegas and is licensed to practice in Texas, Nevada and California.
Federal drug regulations include controls over whether and how frequently a doctor can write prescriptions over the phone, and DEA agents could be looking to see if these rules were broken, Rosenbluth said.
“You can’t just get on the phone and continue to prescribe something for someone without having seen them for a long period of time,” she said.
Jackson had a well-known history of using prescription medications, especially painkillers. Following his death, Cherilyn Lee, a registered nurse who had worked for Jackson, told the AP she repeatedly rejected his demands for the drug Diprivan, also known as Propofol. It’s a potent anesthetic used in operating rooms and it would be highly unusual to have it in a private home.
Uri Geller, a former Jackson confidant, said he tried to keep Jackson from abusing painkillers and other prescription drugs, but others in the singer’s circle kept him supplied.
“When Michael asked for something, he got it,” Geller said in a telephone interview from his suburban London home.
Jackson had multiple doctors and many others like Geller who came in and out of his life. Which people are being interviewed by police is unclear because the LAPD has said virtually nothing about the probe.
“I am not going to make any comments on the investigation,” Commander Patrick Gannon, the designated police spokesman on the Jackson case, said by e-mail Thursday.
Any evidence would be turned over to the district attorney’s office, which has final say on criminal charges.
One of the key questions is why it took four days for police to issue a search warrant and remove medications from Jackson’s home.
Although the home wasn’t declared a crime scene, police did tow Murray’s car the evening of the death to look for potential evidence.
Vernon J. Geberth, former commanding officer of the Bronx Homicide Task force in New York, said police should have known they were dealing with an extraordinary situation.
“If it’s a high-profile person, you have to do more than you would do ordinarily,” he said.
Still, Geberth, who now acts as a private forensic consultant, said he believes the LAPD acted appropriately.
“Having a doctor present altered the equation. It was not a homicide scene. It was an emergency medical scene,” he said.
Police spokesman Lt. John Romero declined to comment when asked if the LAPD was reviewing its handling of the investigation.
Rosenbluth said if the case ends up as a criminal prosecution, any defense attorney would seize on the LAPD’s failure to immediately seal Jackson’s home.
“If you can get even one juror think, I don’t know, maybe somebody fiddled with the medicine before the police came in and collected it, that’s reasonable doubt,” she said. “All that the defense attorney needs is one juror.”
Paramedics, all IOI because:
1. the pic wouldn't match the scene and that's a risk to have out there
2. if any of the paramedics are IOI then all must be because the 911 call's validity is directly linked to this. If the 911 call is real, a real emergency paramedic team would be summoned to the address. It would be tricky to coordinate ensuring that the team that the FBI agents were working on was the team dispatched to the call... unless the 911 dispatch was also IOI, in which case at that point, why bother having any of the paramedics NIOI. Make sense?
UCLA Dr. Cooper, IOI because:
1. called time of death
2. at least one person at UCLA had to be IOI, just to usher MJs entourage through it and then out of it with complete privacy. This person had to be a senior staff member, such as a doctor.
3. signed the DC
and after that i'm brain dead. horse show weekend so i'll be on less sleep and more work mode through sunday.
No way the coordination needed could be done alone.
Has A WPP that is used often.
Can allow/overide any of the future events and set-up trials, reports etc.
Will put you in an Alaskan jail cell if you don't agree...err wrong thread....LOL
LACO-
Prepared and provided autopsy report
Provided a total incompetent report at that.
Could not get Name right
Limited number of staff needed to know
And "look mom I;m on TV!'
This one will quickly get more interesting as time passes.
Alaskan jail cell is a relevant argument.
FBI, additional evidence, of course, the 333 pages of files on MJ released 12/21.
LAPD, IOI because,
1. Conducted investigation into Murray and MJs death and surely they would have discovered as we have that he isn't dead.
2. Impounded Murray's car on 6/25 (and now reportedly viewed the security tapes on 6/25 too) but didn't make the house a crime scene until 6/28.
3. Did not find drugs and other pieces of incriminating evidence against Dr. Murray until he pointed it out to them which launched a second search of Carrolwood (wow--->just realized... just like Neverland), and they admitted it.
The DEA and the Las Vegas Police acted in a raid on the house of Murray, is that the protocol, the police came with the DEA in these cases <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
By team Celestrellas posted Aug 28th 2009 12: 53 AM
(AP) - officers who searched the residence of Michael Jackson after his death acted on information from family members who said to have found a bag of heroin in his bedroom, but someone familiar with the subsequent reviews said that it was not of that drug.
However, they discovered several other drugs, including marijuana, the generic form of Valium and other sedatives. A detective also pointed out that Jackson's body had signs of injections.
The revelation was made in an affidavit in support of the order of raids carried out on 26 June, three days before any previously reported review of Jackson rented residence in Bel-Air.
Two court orders were given out on Thursday after several news media, including The Associated Press, requested that the contents of four orders of RAID is revealed to which gave fulfilment of the Los Angeles Police detectives in the early days of the investigation into the death of Jackson. The judge ordered that two orders continue sealed.
Widespread RAID orders provide an idea of the way in which police conducted their research immediately after Jackson's death. The court order which was complied in his rented mansion in Bel-Air day died is identified as "PC 187", the criminal key in California to identify a homicide, classified as "probable crime" box.
This order States that relatives said an officer from the coroner who "had found a quantity of heroin in a bag in the bedroom of the deceased", although the experts dropped the claim immediately. The person who gave statements does not have permission to talk to the news media and asked to remain anonymous.
Initially the detectives also reported the car of Dr. Conrad Murray, the personal doctor who was with Jackson when he died.
Within two months, the researchers came to establish that Murray was the central character in an investigation for murder. Detectives believe that it was negligent to administer the powerful anesthetic propofol and other sedatives to Jackson, and that these drugs caused death to the singer.
The coroner has not revealed officially the result of the autopsy but a u.s official, who asked to stay anonymous because the investigation continues, told the AP that his death has been considered as murder. Journalist Thomas Watkins of The Associated Press contributed to this information
Scribed by Houdini's Ghost on Sunday, March 7, 2010
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June 26, 2009
Los Angeles Police Department Statement on the Death of Michael Jackson
Los Angeles: The Los Angeles Police Department has responded to the Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center and a private residence in West Los Angeles as a result of the death of Michael Jackson.
Michael Jackson was transported by Los Angeles Fire Department rescue ambulance from his residence to the hospital on June 25, 2009 at about 1 p.m.
As in all cases of undetermined death the Police Department will investigate this occurrence and the Los Angeles County Coroner’s office will determine the cause of death.
Permalink
Michael Jackson Update
Los Angeles: On June 27, 2009, Dr. Conrad Murray, the physician who was with Michael Jackson at the time of his collapse, voluntarily contacted the Los Angeles Police Department. Detectives assigned to Robbery-Homicide Division met with Dr. Murray and conducted an extensive interview. Dr. Murray was cooperative and provided information which will aid the investigation.
Permalink
February 09, 2010
Michael Jackson Death Investigation Update
Los Angeles: With the filing of Criminal Charges against Dr. Conrad Murray, the Michael Jackson Death Investigation has now moved to the criminal prosecution phase.
"While the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) has been the primary investigative agency in this case, we could not have concluded our investigation without the commitment and expertise and assistance of agencies from all levels of law enforcement, including local, state and federal," said LAPD Chief Charlie Beck. “The investigation into the death of Michael Jackson was conducted in a professional manner and was comprehensive and thorough.”
For more information, contact LAPD Media Relations Section at 213-486-5910.
Feds, state and local police are a lot of people. If they are only involved in investigating dirty doctors and pharmacies supplying deep meds , they wouldn't have to know about the hoax. Just be doing their job. Assigned their task, then report findings back to superior. Chain of command.
I thought about it that declassified FBI files after the "death" is precisely the Frank Paul Gambino investigation of death threats to Michael and Janet and to Bush. The other files are invstigación Documents in support of the LAPD in their investigation in cases of child abuse. As the FBI states, found no evidence of anything after years of research.
It is strange that the pharmacy has three different directions .... other doctors are being investigated?
I made a post during the pic TS thing about if there was aa way to see doctors that got busted in last couple years and seeing if MJ had gone to any....would be a nice connect the dots to a possible "reason". Nothing came of it and I have no clue where/how to search that.
Souza threw out a great theory that kind of turned things on their head for me re: the events of 6/25/09: Nothing went to UCLA on 6/25/09, not even an ambulance... especially in regards to developments we have made here and on the TIAI threads, it's exciting.
I think we should start a new discussion on that theory, see what others here think about it, and start testing it big time.
NOTE: THE 3 way theory does NOT stipulate that ONLY 3 people (Michael, Murray, and the coronor) are involved and "in on it", it simply states that only these three people are NECESSARY to complete the physical stage of the hoax. Any persons added, or made aware of the hoax after that are simply ELECTIVE.
Souza threw out a great theory that kind of turned things on their head for me re: the events of 6/25/09: Nothing went to UCLA on 6/25/09, not even an ambulance... especially in regards to developments we have made here and on the TIAI threads, it's exciting.
I think we should start a new discussion on that theory, see what others here think about it, and start testing it big time.
Here it is, I just copied the comments from the other thread. I think it's the most logical scenario. There is NO proof that there was an ambulance at all on that day.
But, honestly, do we have to agree? And what does agreeing get us? Even if we attain answers that TS wants us to find, what do we get?? I think there are tons of reasons for doing all this, but I doubt that we'll ever agree. That's why God made us all different. To be ourselves. Besides, it won't bring Michael back sooner, and what if when we get close to agreeing or figuring things out, he changes them? HUMMM <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
Well, the straight forward answer is that it gets us further progress in the game TS initiated that we agreed to play when we started following this thread.
When I say "game" I mean figuratively.
But 'agreeing' on something doesn't make it the truth - most of the world 'agrees' that MJ is dead! I don't think TS is waiting for us to 'agree'.
I agree (LOL).
Has TS ever said something plain out about the hoax? No. Will he? Nah, don't think so. In the end, did he tell us that the picture was photoshopped? No. He said most likely, but he didn't confirm it. I think the purpose of this 'game' is to let us present different theories, without skipping a possibility.
I have another possibility that may sound strange, but could be another possibility: there was no ambulance at all. What I still think is weird as hell is that there is only ONE video that shows the ambulance coming out of the gates, and no pictures besides the famous NPG pic. There was a tour bus full of people, people on a tour bus have cameras with them. There is a guy filming the ambulance at the beginning of this video: <!-- m -->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU<!-- m --> and that close to the concerts, with Mike rehearsing daily, there should have been paparazzi and fans outside the house, but I don't see them. If you freeze the video at certain points where it captures the street, there is no one, besides some fire fighters and a car. And all we've got is that HollywoodTV video and Ben's famous picture. That house was rented weeks before TMZ published it on December 22, 2008: <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-j ... -new-crib/<!-- m --> so in the weeks before no one would have bothered to be around that house. It would also explain why the Christmas stuff was on the gates and the trash was outside. All you have to do in that case is make sure that fans or paps would be removed from the area on June 25 for a few minutes, so that no one can say that they have been there all morning and afternoon and never saw an ambulance. That would mean the picture of the ambulance arriving at UCLA was staged as well, which I believe anyway. Other media outlets only began reporting after he allegedly arrived at the hospital and the timeline is fucked up anyway. According to the LATimes on June 25, he died at 3:15 pm. No one knew that day what they were reporting and who the source was. It was a mess, I remember watching The Situation Room on CNN and reports were messy as hell. They didn't have a clue.
At arriving at UCLA, you close the department, set of the fire alarm and only dr. Cooper has to know, plus one or two bobos from UCLA. In this scenario the following people need to be in the know:
Staff at the house and since I think there weren't many people at the house (we have not heard all those fired staff members after June 25, probably simply because they never exsisted). In other words: Kai Chase, Murray and the bodyguards. The guy who took the 911 call, which must have known it was a fake call and that is probably why he hang up, to be able to pick up real calls. Staff driving ambulance 71 that day and the other uhhmm day, key people from LAPD/LAFD and the FBI, Dr. Cooper and one or two people at UCLA and the coroner. And of course some media: Harvey, Ben Evenstad and probably another freelance pap/undercover FBI agent who is providing media outlets with pictures and video footage.
Think about it, it would be the best to do. Wrap everything up before it happens, just to be sure it will all go well. All that had to be done that day was make the call at the right time, clear the street for a while so no paps and fans would be near the house to notice nothing happened, let the fire alarm go off at the right time at UCLA and send a distraction heli to the coroner. All you need to make it look like it actually happened is some video footage and pictures, they don't have to be made on June 25.
And then we have tour bus footage. Could be an elaborate plant full of actors/actresses, but then that's a lot of people in on it.
3 scenarios besides it being a real tour bus with real tourists on June 25 (in that case: where the F are the pictures and videos from the tourists??):
- There was no ambulance on June 25, they shot it in December 2008 so people in the bus didn't bother to make a picture because they didn't know MJ lived there. In that case one would expect though that some of the tourists might have recognized themselves yet we haven't heard from any of them saying it was not on June 25.
- It wasn't recorded on June 25, but in December and the people in the tour bus are not real tourists but FBI agents.
- It was really on June 25 but the tourists were FBI agents and that is why they never made pictures.
Too many people to be agents? Just watch Breach, where there were 50 agents working on the sting against the mole in the FBI and this movie was based on a real sting. 50 agents would also mean you have 50 potential actors for this movie.
Okay, I changed my mind completely. I think it was MJ on the stretcher in the ambulance and at the hospital, sitting up. The reason why I think so is because I think June 25 never happened. It was ALL an illusion. No entrapment if it never happened. All there was created, was an opportunity.
I have always found it strange that they wrapped up the rehearsals so close to the death date. That seems a tight deadline for a control freak like MJ. He wants everything perfect right? What if something was NOT recorded the way he wanted? There would have been no opportunity to reshoot. Never made sense to me. Unless of course, he fooled US as well, and TII was shot earlier with ADDITIONAL SCENES and June 25 simply never happened.
I might go slightly off topic here, but I have to to explain my point.
In the tourbus video there is something weird that chappie pointed out to me on the phone. At the end there is this lady on the corner of the street that is on the phone: <!-- m -->http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pd4a ... ce-de_news<!-- m -->. Someone on the bus mentions that she is a big MJ fan. So WHY is she there? The ambulance has been in the house for ages, with the fire truck outside. Being a big MJ fan, she must have known it was Michael's house, so why didn't she go there to check out what happened? Apparently she also didn't call other fans, because the street is empty. No fans, no paparazzi, no nothing. In the video below Ben mentions that it was very quiet that day:
[youtube:212kj5ut]
2 female fans, 2 autograph collectors and '4 of us' (NPG). First of all, the ambulance had been there for 40!!! minutes, yet no other fan showed up to check out what happened. There were 2 fans there, plus the one on the corner of the street, but apparently they didn't notify other fans that something was going on. Cars must have been passing by and tour busses came on and off according to Ben. Since when can something happen UNNOTIFIED for 40 minutes at MJ's house that has ambulances and firetrucks involved? The most hunted man on the planet, yet that ambulance can stay there for 40 minutes without attracting zillions of fans and paparazzi? Okay...
Also notice that the only paps on the scene were from the NPG. That means the HollywoodTV video ALSO comes from Ben et al. On HollywoodTV's website it says: "Hollywood.TV obtained video of Michael Jackson as he was rushed to UCLA Medical Center" while they say about another video: "Hollywood.TV was able to confirm that Britney Spears had suffered a mental breakdown and was being rushed to the hospital. Hollywood.TV was on the spot and shot the only video of the pop star on a stretcher." This tells me that someone either sold or sent them the video and that they did not shoot it themselves. So this means to me that not only the ambulance picture was staged, but also the video. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I hadn't thought it through yet. It makes sense.
Possible scenario:
Spring/Summer 2008: The video of the ambulance was shot with MJ himself in it. They shoot the video at the house and at the hospital, but not in between. They followed that ambulance again right before June 25, because advertisements along the road most likely had changed within the year, or any other stuff that might show it would be recent. They follow the ambulance the whole way, yet we never see them arriving. We only have a video where the ambulance is already parked there. They make the pictures with the jackets and the MJ sitting up, and done, wrapped up for the day. Or maybe they needed more days, because I read somewhere on this thread that the ambulance was seen more often in that street.
Ben also mentioned that a lot of staff was leaving. Could be any day, because the videos below are BOTH clearly cut. No LAFD seen anywhere in these shots and Ben said they were there every day. So when were the shots of the staff taken? The other day? So that staff, or whoever they are, could have left the day before or the day after. And yes, they might have recognized themselves on one of the vids, IF they have seen these, but they must have known Ben was there EVERY day and probably thought he messed up the editing. Not important anyway and even IF they thought it was strange, they would only suspect something going on, like we do.
[youtube:212kj5ut]
[youtube:212kj5ut]
On June 25, all they had to do was block the street one way or another to make sure that there was no possibility that someone was around the house the whole day, to know nothing ever happened. There are many ways they could have accompolished that. And some people had to be in the house to call 911 at the right time and provide background noise. But actually that could have been recorded too. If LAFD is in on it, they could have simply 'created' that emergency screen. If it had to be in the records, they probably did really call 911 at 12:21, but the dispatcher must have been in on it since he hangs up after 2 minutes already, while the paramedics hadn't even arrived (probably because they never would arrive). Risky because another dispatchet could have taken the call? I don't know, they probably have ways for that, or something like a direct line or disconnecting the other phones for 3 seconds or so.
Step further, at the hospital, the fire alarm goes off. People are evacuated and therefore no one sees that nothing ever arrived. At least not the famous MJ ambulance, because ambulances arrive there multiple times a day. Department closed, Dr. Cooper has a cup of coffee and is on the phone with someone to discuss the details one more time, before she pronounces 'MJ AIR' dead at 2:26 pm. Helicopter 'decides' to make a test flight to the coroner, or bring stuff or whatever and Joe Jackson (or an 'anonymous source') tips CNN that MJ's body will be transported by helicopter to the coroner.
In on it:
LAFD firestation 71 (Chief and the paramedics involved)
NPG
UCLA Dr. Cooper and COO
Bodyguards
Murray, whoever he is
Kai Chase (only staff member present)
Coroner
Of course more are in, but this is just for those few hours.
Helicopter staff might just have been told to let the media think they followed MJ for safety reasons
As for the tour bus, Iaybe the tourbus was staged and full of FBI agents/friends involved atc. There weren't that many in that bus, so that could be possible.
Another possibility is that it is a real tour bus and that only one of the people was in on it and just took the right bus at the right time. If it would have been June 2008, it would not have been interesting enough for other people on the bus to tape it. They look, and we see no faces. They probably woul not recognize themselves, most definitely not if there is a year in between. If you weren't there, it can't be you. I know they talk about it being MJ's house, but that's just audio. I think I can at least name one person definitely 'in on it' who is quite good with audio. <!-- s --><!-- s --> Again, why is the fan at the end of the street acting like nothing happened. Like: "Drive already and let me finish my phone call. I'll call you when I have time, don't be annoying."
So in summary: MJ on stretcher in abulance (so why not also MJ on ambulance pic?) and on stretcher at hospital (sitting up), but not on June 25, but the other uhhhm day. It's a hoax, it never happened. It's ALL an illusion. No one saw the ambulance that day, no one except Ben Evanstad et al. Yeah right!
You wrap up a movie before you screen it to make sure there are no mistakes that annoying hoaxers could notice. The plan needs to be perfect, waterproof. If the ambulance video was shot live on June 25, it could have been a busy paparazzi-day and Chris might not have gotten near the window to fake the picture and then the staged pic would be useless. Or another pap might have gotten lucky enough to shoot SOMETHING through the window. Not likely, but too risky. No risks at a well planned hoax like this, too much at stake.
TII must have been shot sooner too, I have always thought it was strange Timor left for LA in late 2008/early 2009 already. I think that when the auditions for the dancers were held, TII was already a wrap. But that's too far off topic.
Here is a challenge for you TS: Can you give at least 2 strong arguments that show me there was an ambulance at all on June 25, 2009?Until then, I think this could very well be the case. I don't think there is a scenario with less people involved.
It's a hoax, a magic trick, an illusion. It didn't happen on June 25, MJ AIR.
Although I have no problem at all if a real corpse was being used, there just are some things bothering me about it. The people that had to be fooled would be the public and the media. Since we haven't seen a body at all, the body was not used to fool us or the media. So the reason to use a real corpse has to be to fool the paramedics and the doctors at UCLA and I have trouble believing they would be fooled enough to work on that body for 2 hours while they must have seen (as also testified by both paramedics and doctor Cooper) that it was dead already. If the doctors (I guess there were just two at the prelim to testify, Cooper and Nguyen) would not be in and you deliver a dead corpse at the hospital, the chance of them pronouncing the patient dead within 5 to 10 minutes would be big. Doctors are no morons, they know a dead person when they see one. The chance that the time of death would NOT fit into the well planned numerology would therefore be WAY bigger, than that they would call it at 2:26 pm, as planned. You could say they did call it earlier and the FBI changed the TOD on the papers, but in that case we have a doctor who is being kept out of the loop, has to testify and there is a very likely possibility that that subject would come up, since the doctor is not going to lie about that just like that. If she would, it would mean that the FBI has asked her to go along with it for whatever reason, and if they had to do that anyway, why not from the start? So no need to fool the docs.
If a real corpse was used, there are two options:
1-Person died before June 25 and was preserved (donor body)
2-Person died on June 25 in the morning, before 911 was called (Assisted suicide/pulling plug out of life support machines)
In both cases the paramedics AND the doctors at UCLA must have seen that the person was dead, as in really dead without chances of reviving. Rigor Mortis and Algor Mortis are not the only stages of death, there is more to determine whether someone is dead and for how long. Algor Mortis (cooling of the corpse) can be manipulated with the heated room, yet that same heated room will make Rigor Mortis set in quicker, even if a body was cooled first. The condition of the patient is also important for the onset of Rigor Mortis. A 'sick, old, frail' man will show rigor way sooner than a person with more body fat and muscles. So by heating the room they might have prevented Algor Mortis, but they sped up the Rigor Mortis. You can 'break' rigor, but not on the eyelids, you will damage the tissue visibly.
This is an excerpt of an article published in August 2009:
Dr Steven Hoefflin, a close friend of Jackson and speaking with the permission of his mother Katherine, confirmed details of the paperwork.
"I've spoken to a chief in the fire department who told me Michael was dead when they arrived," Dr Hoefflin, 63, told News of the World.
"He had no pulse and was not breathing. They gave him an electro-cardiogram but he was flatlined.
"They say he even had lividity, which meant the blood had sunk to the back, indicating his heart had stopped a couple of hours earlier.
Lividity is a stage of death that is very hard to prevent, without draining the blood from the body. We know they didn't do that, because the hospital allegedly took samples. Lividity sets in 1 to 2 hours after death and that means that the patient is as dead as can be and that there is NO USE in CPR or anything else.
Seneff testified during the prelim that the patient's eyes and mouth were open, eyes-dilated and dry, his hands and feet were blue.
He was cold to touch.
And Blount testified that he observed that the patient’s eyes were “blown” (large and unresponsive to light).
Let's say that the paramedics would not be in on it, and they did find a person like this. No pulse, not breathing, cold, showed lividity, eyes dried and open (which will cause Tache Noire, a black stripe in the eyes), hands and feet were blue (Cyanosis, not enough oxygen in the blood). The above indicates that the person is not only clinically dead, but also brain dead. In other words: even IF they would be able to get the organs and heart to work again (sometimes people survive clinical death), the person would never be able to lift his own finger or open his eyes.
Brain injury is likely if cardiac arrest goes untreated for more than five minutes. For the best chance of survival and neurological recovery, immediate and decisive treatment is imperative.
(Wiki)
Murray allegedly performed CPR on the bed with one hand. We can assume by the reports that immediate and decisive treatment was not given in the first 5 (most likely even more) minutes.
So if the paramedics would not be in, it is only logical that they wanted to call it and transport him to the coroner. But Murray could have overruled them and could have gotten as far as the emergency room. But over there the ER doctor is the higher authority. If a patient like that would arrive (CLEARLY dead as a doornail), there is no way a doctor keeps trying to revive that person for over an hour. Reviving a patient like that would be a medical miracle, having the patient functioning again would be simply IMPOSSIBLE). The doctor would have called it right away and not wait until 2:26 pm.
As for the bodyguards not in it: no way. They were in the room with the patient and Murray and called 911. They worked for Michael and bodyguards have extreme eye for detail. They need that to be on guard 24/7. Yet they wouldn't recognize the person they have been protecting all this time? I don't buy that at all.
So this is what is bothering me regarding the corpse. A doctor will not perform CPR on a clearly dead person. So either they are not in and called it way earlier and now lie all of a sudden about that, meaning they were read-in later, what doesn't make sense if you could do that right away, or they are in on it, which seems to make more sense.
So if the bodyguards are in, and the doctors are in when a real body is used, it would mean the same amount of people involved as when there would have been no ambulance that day, except for the two paramedics mentioned above. Using a real corpse for just two paramedics who can be easily silenced does not make sense to me.
Actually with nothing happening at all on June 25, less people would be in, since there would not be an emergency and only the two docs testifying have to be in. The emergency room could have been empty. Nothing to see, nothing to risk. The use of a real corpse would be useless, unless there would be another good reason to use a real body, but I can't think of one.
So if anyone can give me another reason for the use of a real corpse, please do so. Is what I stated above enough for a jury in a court of law? Maybe not, but it's enough for reasonable doubt. And that's all you need.
So I am back at my previous question: was there an ambulance at all on June 25?
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
If nothing happens... then there is nothing to see... and there is nothing to tell either.
When it comes to people at UCLA or in that tour bus or outside the ER entrance or at the coroner office, no one would be able to talk about what they saw on 6/25 because there was nothing to see.
(I really loved how TMZ shows up with a photo from that tour bus at this late date.)
So I'm down with this and it's fitting in logically BUT...
It did have to be coordinated with some real live events:
--The fire alarm was pulled by someone at UCLA on 6/25 right about the time that the ambulance would have arrived.
--Jackson Family members did make appearances at UCLA on 6/25 at just the right time.
--There was a helicopter that was filmed on live TV transporting something that resembled a body. Tohme Tohme did attend this helicopter on rooftop at UCLA.
That's all I can think of that must have happened live.
So I guess Tohme isn't such a shady, possibly bad guy after all. He's IOI, he has to be, he's at UCLA on 6/25 with... nothing. Perhaps it was his job to chaperone the "body" in the helicopter scene and lurk around Jermaine's press conference. Goodbye 'circle of bad insiders' theory.
Souza the theory I could add this paragraph of the theory of 3-way on the acting of Murray:
One Doctor would be needed to get Michael to the hospital because he MUST be pronounced dead at a hospital. Michael may NOT be pronounced dead anywhere else as more complicated legalities are involved in death occuring outside of a medical facility. The "scene" must be sealed, police must be brought in, pictures must be taken and detectives must be involved immediatly. This is entirely too many witnesses to attempt to deal with. This scenario is unacceptable. No. Michael MUST be taken to a hospital where the situation can be controlled, and "death" becomes a simple matter of paperwork. Dr. Murray plays this role. Remember, Murray "overrules" the paramedics at the scene and accompanies Michael's "body" to UCLA. It can safely be assumed (in leu of any information at all) that Murray conceivably could have, being a medical professional and attending physician, retained specific priviliges that allowed him to control situations once at UCLA as well. It is very very conceivable that Murray could have gotten Michael into that "closed off wing" of UCLA ER and simply out the back door, then he could have easily turned it into a "he said/she said situation from there, and no one would be the wiser, simply following orders and passing along information that they have been told.
Comments
By LINDA DEUTSCH and THOMAS WATKINS, Associated Press Writers Linda Deutsch And Thomas Watkins, Associated Press Writers – Fri Jul 3, 12:38 am ET
LOS ANGELES – The investigation of Michael Jackson’s death is widening as questions intensify about the drugs he took, the doctors who provided them and the actions of police.
Why didn’t police seal the mansion where he had been living? Why were moving vans seen at the home, and were any items removed before police wrapped up their search? Why didn’t they get immediate search warrants? Why did they tow away a doctor’s car right after the death but not declare the home a crime scene?
Los Angeles police say proper procedures were followed based on the circumstances officers encountered when they were called to the home at 12:21 p.m. on June 25. A doctor was attending to Jackson and stayed with him when he was placed in an ambulance at 1:07 p.m. There was no sign of foul play.
Others say police should have assumed it was possible a crime occurred and taken precautions to ensure the scene was not disrupted so evidence wasn’t lost or tainted.
“If I was the chief detective on the case, I would have said, ‘We don’t know what’s going on. We should seal the scene,’” said defense attorney Harland Braun, who has represented celebrities including Robert Blake, Roseanne and Gary Busey. “You always have to think of the worst-case scenario and you have to think fast. I would have sealed the scene just because it was Michael Jackson.”
Whether the Jackson probe turns into a criminal investigation hinges on what evidence emerges involving the drugs. Charges could be brought if authorities determine Jackson had been overly prescribed medications, if he had been given drugs inappropriate for his medical needs, or if doctors knowingly prescribed Jackson medications under an assumed name.
It’s still not known what caused Jackson’s death at age 50. The pop star went into cardiac arrest in his bedroom and his personal physician, Dr. Conrad Murray, performed CPR while an ambulance was called, according to Murray’s lawyers. Murray has spoken to police and authorities say he is not a suspect, though his actions have come under scrutiny because his own lawyers acknowledge it may have taken up to a half-hour for an ambulance to be summoned.
An autopsy was conducted but results are not expected for several weeks. The Jackson family had a second autopsy performed and those results also are pending.
On Wednesday, The Associated Press learned Los Angeles police asked the Drug Enforcement Administration to assist in the investigation.
DEA agents participated in the investigation of the 2007 overdose death of Anna Nicole Smith at a Florida hotel. California Attorney General Jerry Brown investigated her former boyfriend and two of her doctors.
Brown handed the investigation over to the Los Angeles district attorney’s office, which filed charges of conspiring to provide Smith with prescription drugs.
Brown said the suspects broke the law because Smith was a “known addict.” The former boyfriend and doctors denied the charges.
The DEA also probed whether painkillers found in actor Heath Ledger‘s system after his death last year were obtained illegally. Federal prosecutors did not charge anyone.
Jean Rosenbluth, a University of Southern California law professor, said the agency’s involvement in the Jackson case suggests authorities are looking into whether drugs came from out of state. Murray lives in Las Vegas and is licensed to practice in Texas, Nevada and California.
Federal drug regulations include controls over whether and how frequently a doctor can write prescriptions over the phone, and DEA agents could be looking to see if these rules were broken, Rosenbluth said.
“You can’t just get on the phone and continue to prescribe something for someone without having seen them for a long period of time,” she said.
Jackson had a well-known history of using prescription medications, especially painkillers. Following his death, Cherilyn Lee, a registered nurse who had worked for Jackson, told the AP she repeatedly rejected his demands for the drug Diprivan, also known as Propofol. It’s a potent anesthetic used in operating rooms and it would be highly unusual to have it in a private home.
Uri Geller, a former Jackson confidant, said he tried to keep Jackson from abusing painkillers and other prescription drugs, but others in the singer’s circle kept him supplied.
“When Michael asked for something, he got it,” Geller said in a telephone interview from his suburban London home.
Jackson had multiple doctors and many others like Geller who came in and out of his life. Which people are being interviewed by police is unclear because the LAPD has said virtually nothing about the probe.
“I am not going to make any comments on the investigation,” Commander Patrick Gannon, the designated police spokesman on the Jackson case, said by e-mail Thursday.
Any evidence would be turned over to the district attorney’s office, which has final say on criminal charges.
One of the key questions is why it took four days for police to issue a search warrant and remove medications from Jackson’s home.
Although the home wasn’t declared a crime scene, police did tow Murray’s car the evening of the death to look for potential evidence.
Vernon J. Geberth, former commanding officer of the Bronx Homicide Task force in New York, said police should have known they were dealing with an extraordinary situation.
“If it’s a high-profile person, you have to do more than you would do ordinarily,” he said.
Still, Geberth, who now acts as a private forensic consultant, said he believes the LAPD acted appropriately.
“Having a doctor present altered the equation. It was not a homicide scene. It was an emergency medical scene,” he said.
Police spokesman Lt. John Romero declined to comment when asked if the LAPD was reviewing its handling of the investigation.
Rosenbluth said if the case ends up as a criminal prosecution, any defense attorney would seize on the LAPD’s failure to immediately seal Jackson’s home.
“If you can get even one juror think, I don’t know, maybe somebody fiddled with the medicine before the police came in and collected it, that’s reasonable doubt,” she said. “All that the defense attorney needs is one juror.”
Oh souza missed other question....
Considering the "scene", IV pole, meds, etc I dont think they would of questioned if he was a real doc, it was probably assumed. IF....
But I honestly do not know. Maybe he told them "he slept at a holiday inn last night", and that's all the needed.
1. the pic wouldn't match the scene and that's a risk to have out there
2. if any of the paramedics are IOI then all must be because the 911 call's validity is directly linked to this. If the 911 call is real, a real emergency paramedic team would be summoned to the address. It would be tricky to coordinate ensuring that the team that the FBI agents were working on was the team dispatched to the call... unless the 911 dispatch was also IOI, in which case at that point, why bother having any of the paramedics NIOI. Make sense?
UCLA Dr. Cooper, IOI because:
1. called time of death
2. at least one person at UCLA had to be IOI, just to usher MJs entourage through it and then out of it with complete privacy. This person had to be a senior staff member, such as a doctor.
3. signed the DC
and after that i'm brain dead. horse show weekend so i'll be on less sleep and more work mode through sunday.
No way the coordination needed could be done alone.
Has A WPP that is used often.
Can allow/overide any of the future events and set-up trials, reports etc.
Will put you in an Alaskan jail cell if you don't agree...err wrong thread....LOL
LACO-
Prepared and provided autopsy report
Provided a total incompetent report at that.
Could not get Name right
Limited number of staff needed to know
And "look mom I;m on TV!'
Alaskan jail cell is a relevant argument.
FBI, additional evidence, of course, the 333 pages of files on MJ released 12/21.
LAPD, IOI because,
1. Conducted investigation into Murray and MJs death and surely they would have discovered as we have that he isn't dead.
2. Impounded Murray's car on 6/25 (and now reportedly viewed the security tapes on 6/25 too) but didn't make the house a crime scene until 6/28.
3. Did not find drugs and other pieces of incriminating evidence against Dr. Murray until he pointed it out to them which launched a second search of Carrolwood (wow--->just realized... just like Neverland), and they admitted it.
[youtube:11h4rg04]
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Michael Jackson's family told police about drugs
By team Celestrellas posted Aug 28th 2009 12: 53 AM
(AP) - officers who searched the residence of Michael Jackson after his death acted on information from family members who said to have found a bag of heroin in his bedroom, but someone familiar with the subsequent reviews said that it was not of that drug.
However, they discovered several other drugs, including marijuana, the generic form of Valium and other sedatives. A detective also pointed out that Jackson's body had signs of injections.
The revelation was made in an affidavit in support of the order of raids carried out on 26 June, three days before any previously reported review of Jackson rented residence in Bel-Air.
Two court orders were given out on Thursday after several news media, including The Associated Press, requested that the contents of four orders of RAID is revealed to which gave fulfilment of the Los Angeles Police detectives in the early days of the investigation into the death of Jackson. The judge ordered that two orders continue sealed.
Widespread RAID orders provide an idea of the way in which police conducted their research immediately after Jackson's death. The court order which was complied in his rented mansion in Bel-Air day died is identified as "PC 187", the criminal key in California to identify a homicide, classified as "probable crime" box.
This order States that relatives said an officer from the coroner who "had found a quantity of heroin in a bag in the bedroom of the deceased", although the experts dropped the claim immediately. The person who gave statements does not have permission to talk to the news media and asked to remain anonymous.
Initially the detectives also reported the car of Dr. Conrad Murray, the personal doctor who was with Jackson when he died.
Within two months, the researchers came to establish that Murray was the central character in an investigation for murder. Detectives believe that it was negligent to administer the powerful anesthetic propofol and other sedatives to Jackson, and that these drugs caused death to the singer.
The coroner has not revealed officially the result of the autopsy but a u.s official, who asked to stay anonymous because the investigation continues, told the AP that his death has been considered as murder. Journalist Thomas Watkins of The Associated Press contributed to this information
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Scribed by Houdini's Ghost on Sunday, March 7, 2010
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June 26, 2009
Los Angeles Police Department Statement on the Death of Michael Jackson
Los Angeles: The Los Angeles Police Department has responded to the Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center and a private residence in West Los Angeles as a result of the death of Michael Jackson.
Michael Jackson was transported by Los Angeles Fire Department rescue ambulance from his residence to the hospital on June 25, 2009 at about 1 p.m.
As in all cases of undetermined death the Police Department will investigate this occurrence and the Los Angeles County Coroner’s office will determine the cause of death.
Permalink
Michael Jackson Update
Los Angeles: On June 27, 2009, Dr. Conrad Murray, the physician who was with Michael Jackson at the time of his collapse, voluntarily contacted the Los Angeles Police Department. Detectives assigned to Robbery-Homicide Division met with Dr. Murray and conducted an extensive interview. Dr. Murray was cooperative and provided information which will aid the investigation.
Permalink
February 09, 2010
Michael Jackson Death Investigation Update
Los Angeles: With the filing of Criminal Charges against Dr. Conrad Murray, the Michael Jackson Death Investigation has now moved to the criminal prosecution phase.
"While the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) has been the primary investigative agency in this case, we could not have concluded our investigation without the commitment and expertise and assistance of agencies from all levels of law enforcement, including local, state and federal," said LAPD Chief Charlie Beck. “The investigation into the death of Michael Jackson was conducted in a professional manner and was comprehensive and thorough.”
For more information, contact LAPD Media Relations Section at 213-486-5910.
""including local, state and federal""
It is strange that the pharmacy has three different directions .... other doctors are being investigated?
I think we should start a new discussion on that theory, see what others here think about it, and start testing it big time.
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I would need serious evidence to back up that allegation. I'm not even sure there is such a thing as a "police cardiologist".
of course the FBI
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Here it is, I just copied the comments from the other thread. I think it's the most logical scenario. There is NO proof that there was an ambulance at all on that day.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."When it comes to people at UCLA or in that tour bus or outside the ER entrance or at the coroner office, no one would be able to talk about what they saw on 6/25 because there was nothing to see.
(I really loved how TMZ shows up with a photo from that tour bus at this late date.)
So I'm down with this and it's fitting in logically BUT...
It did have to be coordinated with some real live events:
--The fire alarm was pulled by someone at UCLA on 6/25 right about the time that the ambulance would have arrived.
--Jackson Family members did make appearances at UCLA on 6/25 at just the right time.
--There was a helicopter that was filmed on live TV transporting something that resembled a body. Tohme Tohme did attend this helicopter on rooftop at UCLA.
That's all I can think of that must have happened live.
So I guess Tohme isn't such a shady, possibly bad guy after all. He's IOI, he has to be, he's at UCLA on 6/25 with... nothing. Perhaps it was his job to chaperone the "body" in the helicopter scene and lurk around Jermaine's press conference. Goodbye 'circle of bad insiders' theory.
Why this woman and Katherine have a visitors pass before arriving?
What is that role or decal that is to the left of the windshield?