Thank you for taking those photos...it's very helpful! I am wondering if it would be possible to take some outside in the sunlight to see if there is a difference? Seems like the tint would be stronger in daylight, which would make it more difficult to get a photo, but I could be wrong. Didn't the pap say he held the camera right against the window with a flash? Not sure if that would make a difference also rather than being 6-12 inches away.
Wait a minute, I thought it was Christopher Weiss who was the EMT, not Ben? <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
Yes, thankyou LadyMedic for the pics you took the time to take etc As much as we hate it, we need all the facts and everyone here can make that happen, between us! <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
BUT, THIS STILL DOESN'T EXPLAIN HIS FLAWLESS MAKEUP AND PERFECT WIG IN THE AMBULANCE. I CANNOT SEE HOW SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN WORKED ON SO HARD CAN STILL HAVE THEIR MAKEUP SO FLAWLESSLY IN PLACE!!
It was stated not long after he "died" that because of the damage done to his face during rescusitation attempts, his face caved in on one side and was too damaged for the public to see!
Soooooo, if his face was way too damaged to have his body on display for public viewing, why was his make up absolutely perfect??
See everyone! You're coming up with plenty of other questions and that's awesome! I wanted to answer your questions about the picture and about why the medics did what they did and what is happening in the picture. And while I have seen dead people that look very much alive, that doesn't mean that your opinion of how MJ looks isn't true. I'm not trying to convince you he's dead, I'm really not. I'm just trying to explain, to the best of my ability, what you're truly seeing from an objective standpoint.
I have a question...when a person in intubated, and that person dies, isnt it a fact that that tube has to stay in the deceased persons mouth until the coroner takes it out? I'm asking this because I have read about this many times, which means the children were taken in to see their father with a big tube in his mouth. Also in one of Mauras videos, she is talking about a hand or something sticking up by the mouth and face area. As you can tell...I dont like where this is going. Sorry. <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( --> BUT....what about the red car, and the 2 ambulances, and tour bus?? Seems like we can never get a straight answer and any truth we think we find gets debunked. <!-- s:evil: -->:evil:<!-- s:evil: -->
Wait a minute, I thought it was Christopher Weiss who was the EMT, not Ben? <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
That's what I thought too...
Ben/Christopher used the flashlight, you can see the reflection in the window. The clear shots that you took are WITHOUT flash.
So I'm still not convinced.
I have a question...when a person in intubated, and that person dies, isnt it a fact that that tube has to stay in the deceased persons mouth until the coroner takes it out? I'm asking this because I have read about this many times, which means the children were taken in to see their father with a big tube in his mouth. Also in one of Mauras videos, she is talking about a hand or something sticking up by the mouth and face area. As you can tell...I dont like where this is going. Sorry. <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( --> BUT....what about the red car, and the 2 ambulances, and tour bus?? Seems like we can never get a straight answer and any truth we think we find gets debunked. <!-- s:evil: -->:evil:<!-- s:evil: -->
"If" it's true that only the coroner can take out the tube, wouldn't the helicopter picture have looked less flat (If that picture is true, of course).
I have a question...when a person in intubated, and that person dies, isnt it a fact that that tube has to stay in the deceased persons mouth until the coroner takes it out? I'm asking this because I have read about this many times, which means the children were taken in to see their father with a big tube in his mouth. Also in one of Mauras videos, she is talking about a hand or something sticking up by the mouth and face area. As you can tell...I dont like where this is going. Sorry. <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( --> BUT....what about the red car, and the 2 ambulances, and tour bus?? Seems like we can never get a straight answer and any truth we think we find gets debunked. <!-- s:evil: -->:evil:<!-- s:evil: -->
"If" it's true that only the coroner can take out the tube, wouldn't the helicopter picture have looked less flat (If that picture is true, of course).
As far as I know, that's not true. When someone dies here, you don't have to wait for the coroner to take the tube out.
Here is a little bit of info about leaving the device in for coroner. I have read alot more in different areas, but I have to leave right now. I'll try to find more later. They have all stated that any devices should be removed by the coroner. I've left a couple of paragraghs incase you dont want to read it all.
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SC: As I mentioned before, we need to have as much information as possible, and that includes the use of those devices. Those devices can cause injuries and if they’re not present at autopsy we might be scratching around as to why the injury was caused. Then we’ll think that maybe it was caused at resuscitation and in that case why isn’t the device still there. It has to be said that on occasions the wrong positioning of an endotracheal tube might be a relevant factor although it would be rare for us to be able to say that it is in fact a relevant factor. In other words, was this person alive and talking when you put the tube down the wrong way, and if they were, that’s probably not good news, but if this person was moribund then probably this is not going to be of great significance. What we also have to be careful of is that just because we see a tube down the wrong way doesn’t necessarily mean that the ambulance paramedic put the tube down the wrong way. It is possible after death if the tube is half withdrawn and then somebody thinks, oh, I had better put it back in and they simply push it down not under direct vision and it could slip down the wrong way. All we can say is that at the autopsy it was down the wrong way and that things can happen sometimes between your environment and ours.
BW: Do you expect full compliance with the policy from paramedic staff?
SC: It is not for me to say that, I mean I’m not in a position where I can require that, but a Coroner might have a view. I don’t actually have any authority at all in relation to this, but I would think the starting point should be that the devices should be left insitu; that should be the starting point. Then it is a question of what could justify the removal of the device and that would then have to be a justification that the person removing the device would be prepared to account for. It does get very difficult because the need of families, and the desire of families to see the loved one in as normal a state as possible is clearly an important desire and need. On occasions that will conflict with what needs to be done in order for the death to be properly investigated. That’s the sort of judgement that professionals need to make, and on occasions they might have to account for that to a coroner. Having said that, I am not aware of any occasion where that has been an issue
I have a question...when a person in intubated, and that person dies, isnt it a fact that that tube has to stay in the deceased persons mouth until the coroner takes it out? I'm asking this because I have read about this many times, which means the children were taken in to see their father with a big tube in his mouth. Also in one of Mauras videos, she is talking about a hand or something sticking up by the mouth and face area. As you can tell...I dont like where this is going. Sorry. <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( --> BUT....what about the red car, and the 2 ambulances, and tour bus?? Seems like we can never get a straight answer and any truth we think we find gets debunked. <!-- s:evil: -->:evil:<!-- s:evil: -->
"If" it's true that only the coroner can take out the tube, wouldn't the helicopter picture have looked less flat (If that picture is true, of course).
They leave all tubes and other equipment used in place if there is going to be an autopsy. In the case of the ET tube, they will cut the tube at the lip line and "hide" it in the mouth so it is not visible, but it is still in place.
Well what we can see of the pictures is that the ones with the flash you cannot see anything inside the amb and the only visible are without a flash, but it would be very complicated because the amb was moving and the sun was very bright that day what would have caused equally the same effect that the flash in this pictures. And also in the MJ picture you can see a light in the corner that Ben said was the flash of the camera, but if he would have used the flash you wouldn't be able to see at all what's happening inside.
On the otherhand the photos taken with flash by Ladymedic are from what I can tell taken indoors and that's why they come out so dark (reflexion of windows etc.) The photo of Michael was taken in daylight and that might make a difference in the outcome (even when using flash). However, I think someone who's a photographer should look at the photo and tell us what they think. I think I saw someone on this forum, who actually is a photographer, discuss the photo on some other thread. I didn't completely understand though so maybe they could explain again?
I have a question...when a person in intubated, and that person dies, isnt it a fact that that tube has to stay in the deceased persons mouth until the coroner takes it out? I'm asking this because I have read about this many times, which means the children were taken in to see their father with a big tube in his mouth. Also in one of Mauras videos, she is talking about a hand or something sticking up by the mouth and face area. As you can tell...I dont like where this is going. Sorry. <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( --> BUT....what about the red car, and the 2 ambulances, and tour bus?? Seems like we can never get a straight answer and any truth we think we find gets debunked. <!-- s:evil: -->:evil:<!-- s:evil: -->
"If" it's true that only the coroner can take out the tube, wouldn't the helicopter picture have looked less flat (If that picture is true, of course).
They leave all tubes and other equipment used in place if there is going to be an autopsy. In the case of the ET tube, they will cut the tube at the lip line and "hide" it in the mouth so it is not visible, but it is still in place.
Thank you for clearing that up. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> So in Michaels case, we couldnt have seen anything?
I have a question...when a person in intubated, and that person dies, isnt it a fact that that tube has to stay in the deceased persons mouth until the coroner takes it out?
They leave all tubes and other equipment used in place if there is going to be an autopsy. In the case of the ET tube, they will cut the tube at the lip line and "hide" it in the mouth so it is not visible, but it is still in place.
You guys were right...I wondered why the tube was still in place when I read the autopsy.
I don't know what everyone else thinks but the photos that were taken by the person who posted them on here looks modern and updated. This ambulance looks way more modern inside compared to the inside of the ambulance with MJ. That pic of MJ just looks ancient to me like from the early 90's or something.
Comments
Wait a minute, I thought it was Christopher Weiss who was the EMT, not Ben? <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
BUT, THIS STILL DOESN'T EXPLAIN HIS FLAWLESS MAKEUP AND PERFECT WIG IN THE AMBULANCE. I CANNOT SEE HOW SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN WORKED ON SO HARD CAN STILL HAVE THEIR MAKEUP SO FLAWLESSLY IN PLACE!!
It was stated not long after he "died" that because of the damage done to his face during rescusitation attempts, his face caved in on one side and was too damaged for the public to see!
Soooooo, if his face was way too damaged to have his body on display for public viewing, why was his make up absolutely perfect??
That's one thing I can't get my head around.....
That's what I thought too...
Ben/Christopher used the flashlight, you can see the reflection in the window. The clear shots that you took are WITHOUT flash.
So I'm still not convinced.
"If" it's true that only the coroner can take out the tube, wouldn't the helicopter picture have looked less flat (If that picture is true, of course).
As far as I know, that's not true. When someone dies here, you don't have to wait for the coroner to take the tube out.
#############################################################################################
SC: As I mentioned before, we need to have as much information as possible, and that includes the use of those devices. Those devices can cause injuries and if they’re not present at autopsy we might be scratching around as to why the injury was caused. Then we’ll think that maybe it was caused at resuscitation and in that case why isn’t the device still there. It has to be said that on occasions the wrong positioning of an endotracheal tube might be a relevant factor although it would be rare for us to be able to say that it is in fact a relevant factor. In other words, was this person alive and talking when you put the tube down the wrong way, and if they were, that’s probably not good news, but if this person was moribund then probably this is not going to be of great significance. What we also have to be careful of is that just because we see a tube down the wrong way doesn’t necessarily mean that the ambulance paramedic put the tube down the wrong way. It is possible after death if the tube is half withdrawn and then somebody thinks, oh, I had better put it back in and they simply push it down not under direct vision and it could slip down the wrong way. All we can say is that at the autopsy it was down the wrong way and that things can happen sometimes between your environment and ours.
BW: Do you expect full compliance with the policy from paramedic staff?
SC: It is not for me to say that, I mean I’m not in a position where I can require that, but a Coroner might have a view. I don’t actually have any authority at all in relation to this, but I would think the starting point should be that the devices should be left insitu; that should be the starting point. Then it is a question of what could justify the removal of the device and that would then have to be a justification that the person removing the device would be prepared to account for. It does get very difficult because the need of families, and the desire of families to see the loved one in as normal a state as possible is clearly an important desire and need. On occasions that will conflict with what needs to be done in order for the death to be properly investigated. That’s the sort of judgement that professionals need to make, and on occasions they might have to account for that to a coroner. Having said that, I am not aware of any occasion where that has been an issue
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They leave all tubes and other equipment used in place if there is going to be an autopsy. In the case of the ET tube, they will cut the tube at the lip line and "hide" it in the mouth so it is not visible, but it is still in place.
On the otherhand the photos taken with flash by Ladymedic are from what I can tell taken indoors and that's why they come out so dark (reflexion of windows etc.) The photo of Michael was taken in daylight and that might make a difference in the outcome (even when using flash). However, I think someone who's a photographer should look at the photo and tell us what they think. I think I saw someone on this forum, who actually is a photographer, discuss the photo on some other thread. I didn't completely understand though so maybe they could explain again?
You guys were right...I wondered why the tube was still in place when I read the autopsy.