Friends, contrary to popular belief, oftentimes there is more to the story than meets the eye.
And you think we don´t know that?
Maybe we go further.
It's my belief that many things were already in motion when President Bush came into office. Remember, he was barely in office when the twin towers were hit.
Of course, many things were in motion, years ago.
Who was before, Clinton, his father?
Where they moving it?
He was the perfect puppet.
Anyone here see Bush cleaver enough to plain all that? <!-- s --><!-- s -->
About the thing of knowing him personally... wouldn´t be that that´s why you don´t see it.
Is there anybody here that knew Hitler in person?
Can I say he was a nazi puppet?
Or maybe he was better when one got to know him?
Look, I don´t care how are they taking tea.
I care about their acts, manipulated or not.
Are they better because they just sold their souls to evils?
People here offended because they were close to the elite, and we´re talking about them?
Have you stop to think that thousands of people are reading this all over the world and we have victims of this genocides among them? We all are their victims.
My God!
I keep saying the whole world should vote in USA elections.
Perfect, very good comparison about Hitler.
Nobody would imagine that he would kill many people before becoming chancellor of Germany. So same thing applies to Bush.
Before being elected president was a "nice" person, and later pure evil..
Wow. There's a lot of obvious judgment and hateful thoughts in this thread, which I find quite disturbing. It's apparent we have a long way to go. Maybe one day we will truly understand and "live" the lyrics from "Man in the Mirror".
I've always seen this forum as a non-hateful and supportive safe place to investigate the death hoax, and other related topics. Posts have most generally all been sensitive and respectful in regards to differences in cultural and religious beliefs (as we come from all around the world) and up until now, sensitive to political beliefs. This thread caught me by surprise, and I find some of the responses hurtful and insensitive to many of those on this board.
Some of the harsh responses got me thinking about how to appropriately respond myself. After some thought, my response is in context of all that I have learned via this hoax/forum over the past 9 months.
Everyone makes choices. This is what I'm choosing:
I choose to live my life the way I would want others to treat me. I choose to not judge harshly without having all the information. I choose to live life humbly to allow for differences of opinion--so that we can learn from one another, and not isolate and segregate ourselves from each other. I choose to discuss topics honorably and respectfully. I choose to respect your religious, cultural, ethnic, socio-economic, and political backgrounds. I choose to respect your opinion, even though mine may be different. I choose to learn, to grow, and to always seek the truth--not the truth dictated to me by public opinion, bias, the media, misinformation, ignorance or fear. I choose to stand up for what's right, with humility and love. And most importantly, I choose to build bridges and not build walls between my brothers and sisters from around the world.
Fighting for truth and justice in all things, with L.O.V.E.
KOM
Friends, contrary to popular belief, oftentimes there is more to the story than meets the eye.
And you think we don´t know that?
Maybe we go further.
It's my belief that many things were already in motion when President Bush came into office. Remember, he was barely in office when the twin towers were hit.
Of course, many things were in motion, years ago.
Who was before, Clinton, his father?
Where they moving it?
He was the perfect puppet.
Anyone here see Bush cleaver enough to plain all that? <!-- s --><!-- s -->
About the thing of knowing him personally... wouldn´t be that that´s why you don´t see it.
Is there anybody here that knew Hitler in person?
Can I say he was a nazi puppet?
Or maybe he was better when one got to know him?
Look, I don´t care how are they taking tea.
I care about their acts, manipulated or not.
Are they better because they just sold their souls to evils?
People here offended because they were close to the elite, and we´re talking about them?
Have you stop to think that thousands of people are reading this all over the world and we have victims of this genocides among them? We all are their victims.
My God!
I keep saying the whole world should vote in USA elections.
I'm not sure why you are so confrontational but I didn't say I knew President Bush. I do, however, believe in God and will continue to pray for those in leadership. I have my beliefs and I'll will let God be judge and jury and I will continue to pray for our men and women in combat. please show some respect for others that don't think like you do. Thank you.
I have to add that this type of conflict is not useful for anyone. There are other ways to get your point across. I thought we were relaying Michael's message and this isn't it.
I always try to balanced and fair in all situations, to see both sides and to try to understand them. This is a highly emotive subject because it has become very clear that the Elite have cold bloodedly killed thousands upon thousands of people for their own power and control. There are more than likely people here on this forum who have lost loved ones at their hands so it is very hard to try and be sensitive to someone like Bush and many others. I do not believe for one second that Bush is behind all of this, he is a mere puppet for the true orchestrators to hide behind. Bush is not going to be sympathized with for obvious reasons. Maybe one day soon as the real Elite are brought out of hiding we may realize more that Bush was under their control in a big way, which I'm sure is the truth, but we are not their yet, Bush will need to see his own position and how he has been used and ask for help from the right people before people could even think about having any understanding for him. This could be a long way off and people need to feel anger towards those who are prepared to see these atrocities happen and do nothing, like Bush. Anger is good if used for strength and action for change. Anger is going to be very strong as more people see the truth, this is a necessary stage and after this then maybe people will be prepared to hear other people's story. The truth will prevail, whatever the individual stories are.
Wow. There's a lot of obvious judgment and hateful thoughts in this thread, which I find quite disturbing. It's apparent we have a long way to go. Maybe one day we will truly understand and "live" the lyrics from "Man in the Mirror".
I've always seen this forum as a non-hateful and supportive safe place to investigate the death hoax, and other related topics. Posts have most generally all been sensitive and respectful in regards to differences in cultural and religious beliefs (as we come from all around the world) and up until now, sensitive to political beliefs. This thread caught me by surprise, and I find some of the responses hurtful and insensitive to many of those on this board.
Some of the harsh responses got me thinking about how to appropriately respond myself. After some thought, my response is in context of all that I have learned via this hoax/forum over the past 9 months.
Everyone makes choices. This is what I'm choosing:
I choose to live my life the way I would want others to treat me. I choose to not judge harshly without having all the information. I choose to live life humbly to allow for differences of opinion--so that we can learn from one another, and not isolate and segregate ourselves from each other. I choose to discuss topics honorably and respectfully. I choose to respect your religious, cultural, ethnic, socio-economic, and political backgrounds. I choose to respect your opinion, even though mine may be different. I choose to learn, to grow, and to always seek the truth--not the truth dictated to me by public opinion, bias, the media, misinformation, ignorance or fear. I choose to stand up for what's right, with humility and love. And most importantly, I choose to build bridges and not build walls between my brothers and sisters from around the world.
Fighting for truth and justice in all things, with L.O.V.E.
KOM
Ok..i see ur point
And then what you talk about this disgusting act? Still thinks he is a good person? We forgive him? He did it deliberately, as if he were better than those people. People who humiliate others, especially the condition that present themselves, not deserve our forgiveness. not deserve our LOVE.
MJ has been accused of pedophilia without evidence, was judged unfairly by people and was later proved his innocence.
Same thing is happening with Dr.Murray, accused of killing MJ, without a concrete evidence, and is being judged by people before the verdict.
Bush wiped his hand after greeting a person who is suffering (recorded on video as proof), and some are trying to acquit him and say he is a good man? <!-- s --><!-- s -->
"Where did we go wrong? Someone tell me why?"
Bush a good solid guy...Yeah you're right! <!-- s --><!-- s --> <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: --> The man is pure evil he won't have to open his mouth only by his face you can already see he's evil, I can't believe so many people believed this creep.
It's too bad that the same thing that happened to Michael Jackson happened to Pres. Bush--the power to affect public perception through media control and manipulation, without knowing the person personally or his/her personal story. We bitch and moan that this happened to Michael, and yet we can justify it happening to others in the same way. We can justify it by saying we are "convinced" we are right. Look at how many people who were "convinced" Michael was guilty, etc, over the years.
Be careful of how you judge other people. The same judgment can easily come back to you. Media and public manipulation is powerful and can happen to anyone, even one of us. We are all vulnerable.
Peace.
he is such a good person, just watch the video again. Shows pure racism and evil.
Do it with a person who has just undergone an irreparable pain and has the hope of being helped.
I never saw MJ wiping his hands after greeting someone ..
And even if Bush has been manipulated by some power behind him, he obeyed. 9/11 , war on iraq and weapons of mass destruction (where is it?), bin Laden (which is related to the bush family)
Texaco , oil fields on iraq...
Such a good person..
not only that, he has the IQ of a loaf of wonderbread...he would have signed anything to become and be 're-elected' president! i don't think anybody ever expected him to make decisions by himself, y'all saw what happens when he had to hold a simple speech...geeezzz!!! the man has severe dyslexia!!! he's not only stupid, he's officially dumb!
and the bush-bin laden business ties speak for themselves...that's decades of 'family to family'-business here, people! anything a bush family member ever was about is the oil business and whatever is connected to that. period.
where is anything the us-government has been looking for in iraq? nothing in ten years, shouldn't they be through all the caves and villages by now? how effin' big can this area be? they found saddam hussein in a hole in the middle of nowhere but can't find osama bin laden? well, sh!t... <!-- s --><!-- s -->
yeah, right...such good and down to earth people...(*goes vomiting*)
Bush a good solid guy...Yeah you're right! <!-- s --><!-- s --> <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: --> The man is pure evil he won't have to open his mouth only by his face you can already see he's evil, I can't believe so many people believed this creep.
It's too bad that the same thing that happened to Michael Jackson happened to Pres. Bush--the power to affect public perception through media control and manipulation, without knowing the person personally or his/her personal story. We bitch and moan that this happened to Michael, and yet we can justify it happening to others in the same way. We can justify it by saying we are "convinced" we are right. Look at how many people who were "convinced" Michael was guilty, etc, over the years.
Be careful of how you judge other people. The same judgment can easily come back to you. Media and public manipulation is powerful and can happen to anyone, even one of us. We are all vulnerable.
Peace.
he is such a good person, just watch the video again. Shows pure racism and evil.
Do it with a person who has just undergone an irreparable pain and has the hope of being helped.
I never saw MJ wiping his hands after greeting someone ..
And even if Bush has been manipulated by some power behind him, he obeyed. 9/11 , war on iraq and weapons of mass destruction (where is it?), bin Laden (which is related to the bush family)
Texaco , oil fields on iraq...
Such a good person..
not only that, he has the IQ of a loaf of wonderbread...he would have signed anything to become and be 're-elected' president! i don't think anybody ever expected him to make decisions by himself, y'all saw what happens when he had to hold a simple speech...geeezzz!!! the man has severe dyslexia!!! he's not only stupid, he's officially dumb!
and the bush-bin laden business ties speak for themselves...that's decades of 'family to family'-business here, people! anything a bush family member ever was about is the oil business and whatever is connected to that. period.
where is anything the us-government has been looking for in iraq? nothing in ten years, shouldn't they be through all the caves and villages by now? how effin' big can this area be? they found saddam hussein in a hole in the middle of nowhere but can't find osama bin laden? well, sh!t... <!-- s --><!-- s -->
yeah, right...such good and down to earth people...(*goes vomiting*)
HAHA you are right, they found saddam in a 2x2 hole in the middle of nowhere. And Bin Laden? lol
And the trial and sentence were the fastest in the history
FOUND IT! GUILTY Let's kill him ..
I'm not defending Saddam because he committed many atrocities (like bush or whatever who's behind him), but Bush is like Saddam, the diference is the mustache and the suit..
George W. Bullshit is pure evil. I never understood why that many Americans voted for that creep.
we were stupid. we learned our lesson the hard way. too many people (and not just americans!) died because of his awful decisions. i like to refer to it as "america's dark ages." come to think of it...we're probably still in them.
and we'll learn our lesson even harder by voting in Obama. THAT was the biggest mistake Americans will ever make. He was voted in and we can all wave our freedom goodbye.
Starting with the Communist health care plan....
Bush, who's behind the i.e. 9/11 inside job, which turned into sending thousands of soldiers to Afghanistan to fight a fake war against a fake enemy, "is a good solid guys, one of the good guys out there in the midst of all of the corrupt political wolves"..?? I'm totally speechless...
George W. Bullshit is pure evil. I never understood why that many Americans voted for that creep.
we were stupid. we learned our lesson the hard way. too many people (and not just americans!) died because of his awful decisions. i like to refer to it as "america's dark ages." come to think of it...we're probably still in them.
and we'll learn our lesson even harder by voting in Obama. THAT was the biggest mistake Americans will ever make. He was voted in and we can all wave our freedom goodbye.
Starting with the Communist health care plan....
why do i keep hearing that the health care plan is 'communist'? did you know that in most of europe there is a government supported health system? and we're not communist here. like here in germany: when you are working, part of your salary is taken off for health care (50/50 between you and the employer). and when you're not employed, your health care will be provided by either the job agency or welfare, taken from what came from your salary, respectively from every working person. it just means that part of your salary (taxes etc.) is used for that. i know, that is exploitaion to some extend, too, cuz you would get to keep more money to yourself if the state wasn't taking so much of it, but it pays for all of that, so everybody living here can have a health insurance. if you wanna look at it the bad way, it could also be a means to keep a strong working power if people can afford to stay healthier. and sick people cost more money than healthy ones.
i still don't think it's bad altogether. more about time that this finally changed for the states. i know so many folx (half my family is us-american) over there who can't afford to have their teeth fixed or have some kind of illness (diabetes, arthritis) and can't afford regular doctor visits. some even died cuz they went too late, just to save the money...that shouldn't be. i remember when i was in the states once, my son fell from a bed and i had to go have him x-rayed, they billed us with $ 400 (!!!), and we were already using an insurance card from my mother in-law! it wouldn't have cost me anything over here! and if that new health care plan changes that for the u.s., i'm all for it.
tabloidburn, I´m with you, but I don´t think they are going to have a good health system because it has not been honestly made. Ours is the result of many years and other path. Letting aside the aversion fot communism and socialism that they have been inculcated. Social is good.
I have posted an article in the Obama thread that I want to repeat it here.
Sorry if it bothers someone, just skip it.
They are sick
By Boaventura de Sousa Santos *
* PhD in Sociology of Law.
American society is sick, in a metaphorical sense, for many reasons. Over three decades I spend several months per year in the United States and I have observed a progressive accumulation of "illnesses", but it is about them that I write today. I want to write about the disease in a literal sense, referring to the health system reform that just passed by Congress. The lessons of this reform for other countries are evident. The U.S. is the only country in the developed world that health was transformed into a commodity and its supply delivered to the private market insurers and medical service companies. The results are chilling. In healthcare spends twice as much as any other developed country, and despite this, 49 million citizens have no health insurance and for that lack, 45 thousand people die each year. In addition, each step arise frightening news for people with serious illnesses who cancel their insurance covers them, reject them in payment for procedures that could save their lives or are denied coverage to meet their "preexisting conditions", ie their chronic diseases or the likelihood of needing future expensive treatments.
The perversity of this system is that profits from health insurers are greater when more people from lower-middle class or workers in small and medium enterprises are excluded, ie social sectors that can not withstand the constant increases in quotas , that have nothing to do with inflation. Amid a severe economic crisis and high unemployment rates, the insurer Anthem Blue Cross, which last year declared a 56 percent increase in earnings announced weeks ago, an increase of 39 percent of shares in California, This would result in the loss of coverage for 800 thousand people. The move was viewed as criminal and scandalous by some members of Congress.
For all these reasons, there is consensus in the U.S. of the need to reform the health system, and that was one of the central promises of the campaign of Barack Obama. His proposal was based on two main steps: creating a public system, funded by the state, which, though residual, given an option to those unable to afford private coverage, and regulate the sector so that quota increases would not be decided unilaterally by the insurers. The bill was filed in Congress for a year and has just been approved. But it contains none of the initial proposals of Obama. For the simple reason that the insurance lobby spent $ 300 million to pay the legislators responsible for drafting the law (for their campaigns for public initiatives and, ultimately, for their pockets). There are six area health lobbyists registered for every member of Congress. Lobby is the legal form of what in the world is called corruption. The project was so disfigured that many progressive sectors (ie sectors with a little less conservative) think it would be better not to enact the law. Among other things, the law "surrender" to insurers about 30 million new customers without any control over the amount of contributions. The reason that the Democratic Party wanted to enact the law is no reason for public health policy. It is a political reason tout court: to create public opinion the idea that the enactment of the law is a victory for President Obama and that would help their re-election in 2012. The U.S. are sick because American democracy is ill.
What are the lessons for other countries? First, it is a social crime transform health into a commodity. Second, once you dominate the market, insurers show a frightening social irresponsibility. They are accountable to their shareholders, not to citizens. Third, have powerful weapons to dominate the government and the public. Depending on countries, or prevent the creation of a public health system for fear that competition will make them or organize public campaigns against the existing system to remove what remains of the middle classes, more sensitive to lack of quality. Never reach the point of eliminating it, otherwise, would lose the "trash can" where you pull the sick who reject (because he can not afford the increases in quotas, because they need constant care or wasteful). In cases where public systems are reliable, one tactic is to contrast the private efficiency public inefficiency, losses of public hospitals against private gains. They start from the assumption that public opinion will not be aware of their selection criteria of patients and that, therefore, losses of public hospitals for more efficient they are, are increasingly the cause of the profit private hospitals.
George W. Bullshit is pure evil. I never understood why that many Americans voted for that creep.
A lot of us didn't. If you remember, he did not get the general population's vote -- Al Gore did. It was because of the electoral college (an antiquated thing that should have been done away with long ago) and the decision of the US Supreme Court, that he "won" the first election.
George W. Bullshit is pure evil. I never understood why that many Americans voted for that creep.
A lot of us didn't. If you remember, he did not get the general population's vote -- Al Gore did. It was because of the electoral college (an antiquated thing that should have been done away with long ago) and the decision of the US Supreme Court, that he "won" the first election.
both elections were a sham. first that ridiculous "re-count" in florida (i.e. count the votes for bush only to put him in office cause brother jeb can help) and ohio (the 2nd term election) where there was another failure in the counting process. if i remember correctly from my poly sci class, mexico was looking at governments to see how they could improve theirs and they skipped america ("home of the free and democracy") because the system has become nothing but a game of private interests and greed.
alright i'm done. enough bush bashing. back to michael!
George W. Bullshit is pure evil. I never understood why that many Americans voted for that creep.
we were stupid. we learned our lesson the hard way. too many people (and not just americans!) died because of his awful decisions. i like to refer to it as "america's dark ages." come to think of it...we're probably still in them.
and we'll learn our lesson even harder by voting in Obama. THAT was the biggest mistake Americans will ever make. He was voted in and we can all wave our freedom goodbye.
Starting with the Communist health care plan....
why do i keep hearing that the health care plan is 'communist'? did you know that in most of europe there is a government supported health system? and we're not communist here. like here in germany: when you are working, part of your salary is taken off for health care (50/50 between you and the employer). and when you're not employed, your health care will be provided by either the job agency or welfare, taken from what came from your salary, respectively from every working person. it just means that part of your salary (taxes etc.) is used for that. i know, that is exploitaion to some extend, too, cuz you would get to keep more money to yourself if the state wasn't taking so much of it, but it pays for all of that, so everybody living here can have a health insurance. if you wanna look at it the bad way, it could also be a means to keep a strong working power if people can afford to stay healthier. and sick people cost more money than healthy ones.
i still don't think it's bad altogether. more about time that this finally changed for the states. i know so many folx (half my family is us-american) over there who can't afford to have their teeth fixed or have some kind of illness (diabetes, arthritis) and can't afford regular doctor visits. some even died cuz they went too late, just to save the money...that shouldn't be. i remember when i was in the states once, my son fell from a bed and i had to go have him x-rayed, they billed us with $ 400 (!!!), and we were already using an insurance card from my mother in-law! it wouldn't have cost me anything over here! and if that new health care plan changes that for the u.s., i'm all for it.
Just like somekindofsign said below you...this health care plan was not done honestly. No one wanted it but the government shoved it down our thoats. They KNEW it would never pass so they bribed people and make behind the scenes deals so it would go thru. I always thought the government was supposed to work FOR the people and not against them.
We were forced to have this health care. To me that is Communist. You do whatever the government tells you and you have no say. That is NOT what this country is about. Our forefathers are rolling in their graves right now because of this.
This is one of the first steps in controlling everyone and yes I am PISSED. Not at you of course, but the govt has NO BUSINESS in this area. And also no one has even read this health care paln, which by the way includes PELL grants (govt money) for education. Since when does education fall under health care??????
There is so much more to all of this that I cannot get into because its too detailed. But let me say this.....this country is now on its way to being Socialist. And Obama and all the rest of those jerks are laughing their scummy little asses off right now cus they think they pulled one over on us.....and they did. What they have done is COMPLETELY unconstitutional.
I myself do not have health care and YES I do need it....but Im not really keen on being FORCED to buy ANYTHING the govt tells me too.....
THE JACKSONOLOGIST, I totally agree with you, but that is not communism.
Communism doesn´t mean dictatorial.
Dictatorial is Dictatorial.
I understand you see communism as a negative thing itself, but it´s not so, that´s only the way the communist regimens have perdured. There were others that we will never know if someday we would have a honestly working communist regime. I mean, communism applied honestly can be good (there are tribal examples in History), as well as democracy applied honestly can be good, but we have never seen one of those.
Exactly the same that the health system, honest is good, but it seems it´s not what it´s happening.
And in Europe and many countries we have a honest health system and they are in jeopardy to become (or they are becoming) dishonest, and so people will turn to private insurance...
I call this a fraude, a conspiracy, corruption, neoliberalism, dictatorial could also be...
but never communism.
Take into account that in Europe there are still (dying) communist legal parties that are considered workers voice, nothing to do with the demonized (and far from reality) meaning of communism in USA.
Friends, contrary to popular belief, oftentimes there is more to the story than meets the eye.
And you think we don´t know that?
Maybe we go further.
It's my belief that many things were already in motion when President Bush came into office. Remember, he was barely in office when the twin towers were hit.
Of course, many things were in motion, years ago.
Who was before, Clinton, his father?
Where they moving it?
He was the perfect puppet.
Anyone here see Bush cleaver enough to plain all that? <!-- s --><!-- s -->
About the thing of knowing him personally... wouldn´t be that that´s why you don´t see it.
Is there anybody here that knew Hitler in person?
Can I say he was a nazi puppet?
Or maybe he was better when one got to know him?
Look, I don´t care how are they taking tea.
I care about their acts, manipulated or not.
Are they better because they just sold their souls to evils?
People here offended because they were close to the elite, and we´re talking about them?
Have you stop to think that thousands of people are reading this all over the world and we have victims of this genocides among them? We all are their victims.
My God!
I keep saying the whole world should vote in USA elections.
I'm not sure why you are so confrontational but I didn't say I knew President Bush. I do, however, believe in God and will continue to pray for those in leadership. I have my beliefs and I'll will let God be judge and jury and I will continue to pray for our men and women in combat. please show some respect for others that don't think like you do. Thank you.
I have to add that this type of conflict is not useful for anyone. There are other ways to get your point across. I thought we were relaying Michael's message and this isn't it.
Sorry, I didn´see this until today.
Sorry again, I don´t know what you´re talking about.
I express as good as I can, and I´m not a confrontational person. Neither an unrespectful person.
I just expressed my thoughts argumenting and I asked questions.
George W. Bullshit is pure evil. I never understood why that many Americans voted for that creep.
we were stupid. we learned our lesson the hard way. too many people (and not just americans!) died because of his awful decisions. i like to refer to it as "america's dark ages." come to think of it...we're probably still in them.
and we'll learn our lesson even harder by voting in Obama. THAT was the biggest mistake Americans will ever make. He was voted in and we can all wave our freedom goodbye.
Starting with the Communist health care plan....
why do i keep hearing that the health care plan is 'communist'? did you know that in most of europe there is a government supported health system? and we're not communist here. like here in germany: when you are working, part of your salary is taken off for health care (50/50 between you and the employer). and when you're not employed, your health care will be provided by either the job agency or welfare, taken from what came from your salary, respectively from every working person. it just means that part of your salary (taxes etc.) is used for that. i know, that is exploitaion to some extend, too, cuz you would get to keep more money to yourself if the state wasn't taking so much of it, but it pays for all of that, so everybody living here can have a health insurance. if you wanna look at it the bad way, it could also be a means to keep a strong working power if people can afford to stay healthier. and sick people cost more money than healthy ones.
i still don't think it's bad altogether. more about time that this finally changed for the states. i know so many folx (half my family is us-american) over there who can't afford to have their teeth fixed or have some kind of illness (diabetes, arthritis) and can't afford regular doctor visits. some even died cuz they went too late, just to save the money...that shouldn't be. i remember when i was in the states once, my son fell from a bed and i had to go have him x-rayed, they billed us with $ 400 (!!!), and we were already using an insurance card from my mother in-law! it wouldn't have cost me anything over here! and if that new health care plan changes that for the u.s., i'm all for it.
Just like somekindofsign said below you...this health care plan was not done honestly. No one wanted it but the government shoved it down our thoats. They KNEW it would never pass so they bribed people and make behind the scenes deals so it would go thru. I always thought the government was supposed to work FOR the people and not against them.
We were forced to have this health care. To me that is Communist. You do whatever the government tells you and you have no say. That is NOT what this country is about. Our forefathers are rolling in their graves right now because of this.
This is one of the first steps in controlling everyone and yes I am PISSED. Not at you of course, but the govt has NO BUSINESS in this area. And also no one has even read this health care paln, which by the way includes PELL grants (govt money) for education. Since when does education fall under health care??????
There is so much more to all of this that I cannot get into because its too detailed. But let me say this.....this country is now on its way to being Socialist. And Obama and all the rest of those jerks are laughing their scummy little asses off right now cus they think they pulled one over on us.....and they did. What they have done is COMPLETELY unconstitutional.
I myself do not have health care and YES I do need it....but Im not really keen on being FORCED to buy ANYTHING the govt tells me too.....
Jacksonologist,
Here-here! I raise my glass to you in complete agreement! We are not alone in our sentiments either. What has come of this democratic country???? Gone, I say. Gone to a socialist-marxist and a panel of communist Czars! This country is quickly going down-as other countries have who have forged this same path. Americans must unite and take our democracy back!!! This kind of government will only lead to anarchy, and it is so terribly sad!!!!
THE JACKSONOLOGIST, I totally agree with you, but that is not communism.
Communism doesn´t mean dictatorial.
Dictatorial is Dictatorial.
I understand you see communism as a negative thing itself, but it´s not so, that´s only the way the communist regimens have perdured. There were others that we will never know if someday we would have a honestly working communist regime. I mean, communism applied honestly can be good (there are tribal examples in History), as well as democracy applied honestly can be good, but we have never seen one of those.
Exactly the same that the health system, honest is good, but it seems it´s not what it´s happening.
And in Europe and many countries we have a honest health system and they are in jeopardy to become (or they are becoming) dishonest, and so people will turn to private insurance...
I call this a fraude, a conspiracy, corruption, neoliberalism, dictatorial could also be...
but never communism.
Take into account that in Europe there are still (dying) communist legal parties that are considered workers voice, nothing to do with the demonized (and far from reality) meaning of communism in USA.
It IS communism/socialism.
Im not trying to start an arguement so please dont think I am. Im just very mad at all of this.
Obama wants to "spread the wealth". That means he takes the most money from rich people and gives it to the poor. He wants everyone to have all things equal.
Karl Marx once said: "From each according to his abiltiy, to each according to his needs."
THAT is Communism/Socialism.
THAT is what Obama is doing RIGHT NOW. And Im sorry but I really dont see how a communist or socialst regime can be good.
Again, this country is about FREEDOM....NOT what the goverenment tells you can or cannot do. I agree this country is in need of some help with the health care system,,,,but not like this.
@ michaelsupporter......youre right. ALL this BS that they want for this country will take yrs to accomplish. You and I are seeing the beginnings of it. Once its done,if its allowed to continue, you and I will be long dead or at least very old....but our children are the one who will suffer the most.
People dont understand what is REALLY happening.... and it isnt something to take lightly AT ALL.
THE JACKSONOLOGIST, we agree in the rest, but obviously we don´t see communism/socialism the same way that´s all.
My country, as many others, have a socialist government (or so they say) and as I said, we have comunist representation in the parliament and senate (I wish it could be bigger), and my country and the rest of Europe is as "supposedly" free as yours. And our socialist systems took as many years as USA rights to be acomplished and were asked for by the people. Sharing with the people who doesn´t have, or can´t have, works here.
By I think we´re not going to agree in this, that´s fine.
I gues we have a different education about communism and socialism.
THE JACKSONOLOGIST, I totally agree with you, but that is not communism.
Communism doesn´t mean dictatorial.
Dictatorial is Dictatorial.
I understand you see communism as a negative thing itself, but it´s not so, that´s only the way the communist regimens have perdured. There were others that we will never know if someday we would have a honestly working communist regime. I mean, communism applied honestly can be good (there are tribal examples in History), as well as democracy applied honestly can be good, but we have never seen one of those.
Exactly the same that the health system, honest is good, but it seems it´s not what it´s happening.
And in Europe and many countries we have a honest health system and they are in jeopardy to become (or they are becoming) dishonest, and so people will turn to private insurance...
I call this a fraude, a conspiracy, corruption, neoliberalism, dictatorial could also be...
but never communism.
Take into account that in Europe there are still (dying) communist legal parties that are considered workers voice, nothing to do with the demonized (and far from reality) meaning of communism in USA.
It IS communism/socialism.
Im not trying to start an arguement so please dont think I am. Im just very mad at all of this.
Obama wants to "spread the wealth". That means he takes the most money from rich people and gives it to the poor. He wants everyone to have all things equal.
Karl Marx once said: "From each according to his abiltiy, to each according to his needs."
THAT is Communism/Socialism.
THAT is what Obama is doing RIGHT NOW. And Im sorry but I really dont see how a communist or socialst regime can be good.
Again, this country is about FREEDOM....NOT what the goverenment tells you can or cannot do. I agree this country is in need of some help with the health care system,,,,but not like this.
I have to admit I did not read up very well on your new health care system, but as far as I know Obama talked to the Dutch government about our health system. And as far as I know it's not the government that insures you, but the private insurance companies, the difference is only that they can't reject people anymore.
In our system everyone pays the same, yet people that can't afford the whole amount, will get a certain amount back from the government every months, depending on their income.
I think we have a very fair system. Those that can afford will help those who can't. Every person in Holland can get an insurance, even the very ill ones, and everyone is treated the same in the hospitals because we all pay the same.
Like I said, I would have to read up on the American plans, but I hope you would agree with me that it is always better than the system you have now, where only people who can afford can visit a doctor or get run down by a truck. Too many people have huge depts because they can't pay their medical bills. They still get sick and they still have to go to the hospital if it gets really bad. In the end the people that DO have an insurance pay for that, because those people will never be able to pay for it themselves, yet the doctor wants his salary.
I heard the ones that do have an insurance pay around 400-450 dollars a month, that is for yourself and your neighbour that doesn't have an insurance. Here in Holland we all pay around 150 dollars, because we all have insurance.
Maybe it will take some time for America until the system is as good as it is here, but at least this is the beginning of an important change. Just my opinion with the little information I have on this health care bill.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
THE JACKSONOLOGIST, we agree in the rest, but obviously we don´t see communism/socialism the same way that´s all.
My country, as many others, have a socialist government (or so they say) and as I said, we have comunist representation in the parliament and senate (I wish it could be bigger), and my country and the rest of Europe is as "supposedly" free as yours. And our socialist systems took as many years as USA rights to be acomplished and were asked for by the people. Sharing with the people who doesn´t have, or can´t have, works here.
By I think we´re not going to agree in this, that´s fine.
I gues we have a different education about communism and socialism.
Oh its ok. Im not mad at you at all!! ***hugs***
I dont think we will see eye to eye on this either. Its ok to debate it though.
Have you ever lived in a country that didnt have socialism?
Comments
Perfect, very good comparison about Hitler.
Nobody would imagine that he would kill many people before becoming chancellor of Germany. So same thing applies to Bush.
Before being elected president was a "nice" person, and later pure evil..
I've always seen this forum as a non-hateful and supportive safe place to investigate the death hoax, and other related topics. Posts have most generally all been sensitive and respectful in regards to differences in cultural and religious beliefs (as we come from all around the world) and up until now, sensitive to political beliefs. This thread caught me by surprise, and I find some of the responses hurtful and insensitive to many of those on this board.
Some of the harsh responses got me thinking about how to appropriately respond myself. After some thought, my response is in context of all that I have learned via this hoax/forum over the past 9 months.
Everyone makes choices. This is what I'm choosing:
I choose to live my life the way I would want others to treat me. I choose to not judge harshly without having all the information. I choose to live life humbly to allow for differences of opinion--so that we can learn from one another, and not isolate and segregate ourselves from each other. I choose to discuss topics honorably and respectfully. I choose to respect your religious, cultural, ethnic, socio-economic, and political backgrounds. I choose to respect your opinion, even though mine may be different. I choose to learn, to grow, and to always seek the truth--not the truth dictated to me by public opinion, bias, the media, misinformation, ignorance or fear. I choose to stand up for what's right, with humility and love. And most importantly, I choose to build bridges and not build walls between my brothers and sisters from around the world.
Fighting for truth and justice in all things, with L.O.V.E.
KOM
I'm not sure why you are so confrontational but I didn't say I knew President Bush. I do, however, believe in God and will continue to pray for those in leadership. I have my beliefs and I'll will let God be judge and jury and I will continue to pray for our men and women in combat. please show some respect for others that don't think like you do. Thank you.
I have to add that this type of conflict is not useful for anyone. There are other ways to get your point across. I thought we were relaying Michael's message and this isn't it.
Ok..i see ur point
And then what you talk about this disgusting act? Still thinks he is a good person? We forgive him? He did it deliberately, as if he were better than those people. People who humiliate others, especially the condition that present themselves, not deserve our forgiveness. not deserve our LOVE.
MJ has been accused of pedophilia without evidence, was judged unfairly by people and was later proved his innocence.
Same thing is happening with Dr.Murray, accused of killing MJ, without a concrete evidence, and is being judged by people before the verdict.
Bush wiped his hand after greeting a person who is suffering (recorded on video as proof), and some are trying to acquit him and say he is a good man? <!-- s
"Where did we go wrong? Someone tell me why?"
not only that, he has the IQ of a loaf of wonderbread...he would have signed anything to become and be 're-elected' president! i don't think anybody ever expected him to make decisions by himself, y'all saw what happens when he had to hold a simple speech...geeezzz!!! the man has severe dyslexia!!! he's not only stupid, he's officially dumb!
and the bush-bin laden business ties speak for themselves...that's decades of 'family to family'-business here, people! anything a bush family member ever was about is the oil business and whatever is connected to that. period.
where is anything the us-government has been looking for in iraq? nothing in ten years, shouldn't they be through all the caves and villages by now? how effin' big can this area be? they found saddam hussein in a hole in the middle of nowhere but can't find osama bin laden? well, sh!t... <!-- s
yeah, right...such good and down to earth people...(*goes vomiting*)
HAHA you are right, they found saddam in a 2x2 hole in the middle of nowhere. And Bin Laden? lol
And the trial and sentence were the fastest in the history
FOUND IT! GUILTY Let's kill him ..
I'm not defending Saddam because he committed many atrocities (like bush or whatever who's behind him), but Bush is like Saddam, the diference is the mustache and the suit..
and we'll learn our lesson even harder by voting in Obama. THAT was the biggest mistake Americans will ever make. He was voted in and we can all wave our freedom goodbye.
Starting with the Communist health care plan....
So agreed, on all points.
why do i keep hearing that the health care plan is 'communist'? did you know that in most of europe there is a government supported health system? and we're not communist here. like here in germany: when you are working, part of your salary is taken off for health care (50/50 between you and the employer). and when you're not employed, your health care will be provided by either the job agency or welfare, taken from what came from your salary, respectively from every working person. it just means that part of your salary (taxes etc.) is used for that. i know, that is exploitaion to some extend, too, cuz you would get to keep more money to yourself if the state wasn't taking so much of it, but it pays for all of that, so everybody living here can have a health insurance. if you wanna look at it the bad way, it could also be a means to keep a strong working power if people can afford to stay healthier. and sick people cost more money than healthy ones.
i still don't think it's bad altogether. more about time that this finally changed for the states. i know so many folx (half my family is us-american) over there who can't afford to have their teeth fixed or have some kind of illness (diabetes, arthritis) and can't afford regular doctor visits. some even died cuz they went too late, just to save the money...that shouldn't be. i remember when i was in the states once, my son fell from a bed and i had to go have him x-rayed, they billed us with $ 400 (!!!), and we were already using an insurance card from my mother in-law! it wouldn't have cost me anything over here! and if that new health care plan changes that for the u.s., i'm all for it.
I have posted an article in the Obama thread that I want to repeat it here.
Sorry if it bothers someone, just skip it.
A lot of us didn't. If you remember, he did not get the general population's vote -- Al Gore did. It was because of the electoral college (an antiquated thing that should have been done away with long ago) and the decision of the US Supreme Court, that he "won" the first election.
both elections were a sham. first that ridiculous "re-count" in florida (i.e. count the votes for bush only to put him in office cause brother jeb can help) and ohio (the 2nd term election) where there was another failure in the counting process. if i remember correctly from my poly sci class, mexico was looking at governments to see how they could improve theirs and they skipped america ("home of the free and democracy") because the system has become nothing but a game of private interests and greed.
alright i'm done. enough bush bashing. back to michael!
Just like somekindofsign said below you...this health care plan was not done honestly. No one wanted it but the government shoved it down our thoats. They KNEW it would never pass so they bribed people and make behind the scenes deals so it would go thru. I always thought the government was supposed to work FOR the people and not against them.
We were forced to have this health care. To me that is Communist. You do whatever the government tells you and you have no say. That is NOT what this country is about. Our forefathers are rolling in their graves right now because of this.
This is one of the first steps in controlling everyone and yes I am PISSED. Not at you of course, but the govt has NO BUSINESS in this area. And also no one has even read this health care paln, which by the way includes PELL grants (govt money) for education. Since when does education fall under health care??????
There is so much more to all of this that I cannot get into because its too detailed. But let me say this.....this country is now on its way to being Socialist. And Obama and all the rest of those jerks are laughing their scummy little asses off right now cus they think they pulled one over on us.....and they did. What they have done is COMPLETELY unconstitutional.
I myself do not have health care and YES I do need it....but Im not really keen on being FORCED to buy ANYTHING the govt tells me too.....
Communism doesn´t mean dictatorial.
Dictatorial is Dictatorial.
I understand you see communism as a negative thing itself, but it´s not so, that´s only the way the communist regimens have perdured. There were others that we will never know if someday we would have a honestly working communist regime. I mean, communism applied honestly can be good (there are tribal examples in History), as well as democracy applied honestly can be good, but we have never seen one of those.
Exactly the same that the health system, honest is good, but it seems it´s not what it´s happening.
And in Europe and many countries we have a honest health system and they are in jeopardy to become (or they are becoming) dishonest, and so people will turn to private insurance...
I call this a fraude, a conspiracy, corruption, neoliberalism, dictatorial could also be...
but never communism.
Take into account that in Europe there are still (dying) communist legal parties that are considered workers voice, nothing to do with the demonized (and far from reality) meaning of communism in USA.
Sorry, I didn´see this until today.
Sorry again, I don´t know what you´re talking about.
I express as good as I can, and I´m not a confrontational person. Neither an unrespectful person.
I just expressed my thoughts argumenting and I asked questions.
Jacksonologist,
Here-here! I raise my glass to you in complete agreement! We are not alone in our sentiments either. What has come of this democratic country???? Gone, I say. Gone to a socialist-marxist and a panel of communist Czars! This country is quickly going down-as other countries have who have forged this same path. Americans must unite and take our democracy back!!! This kind of government will only lead to anarchy, and it is so terribly sad!!!!
Please michaelsuporter, I think our post went at the same time.
Please, read my post (here)
It IS communism/socialism.
Im not trying to start an arguement so please dont think I am. Im just very mad at all of this.
Obama wants to "spread the wealth". That means he takes the most money from rich people and gives it to the poor. He wants everyone to have all things equal.
Karl Marx once said: "From each according to his abiltiy, to each according to his needs."
THAT is Communism/Socialism.
THAT is what Obama is doing RIGHT NOW. And Im sorry but I really dont see how a communist or socialst regime can be good.
Again, this country is about FREEDOM....NOT what the goverenment tells you can or cannot do. I agree this country is in need of some help with the health care system,,,,but not like this.
People dont understand what is REALLY happening.... and it isnt something to take lightly AT ALL.
My country, as many others, have a socialist government (or so they say) and as I said, we have comunist representation in the parliament and senate (I wish it could be bigger), and my country and the rest of Europe is as "supposedly" free as yours. And our socialist systems took as many years as USA rights to be acomplished and were asked for by the people. Sharing with the people who doesn´t have, or can´t have, works here.
By I think we´re not going to agree in this, that´s fine.
I gues we have a different education about communism and socialism.
I have to admit I did not read up very well on your new health care system, but as far as I know Obama talked to the Dutch government about our health system. And as far as I know it's not the government that insures you, but the private insurance companies, the difference is only that they can't reject people anymore.
In our system everyone pays the same, yet people that can't afford the whole amount, will get a certain amount back from the government every months, depending on their income.
I think we have a very fair system. Those that can afford will help those who can't. Every person in Holland can get an insurance, even the very ill ones, and everyone is treated the same in the hospitals because we all pay the same.
Like I said, I would have to read up on the American plans, but I hope you would agree with me that it is always better than the system you have now, where only people who can afford can visit a doctor or get run down by a truck. Too many people have huge depts because they can't pay their medical bills. They still get sick and they still have to go to the hospital if it gets really bad. In the end the people that DO have an insurance pay for that, because those people will never be able to pay for it themselves, yet the doctor wants his salary.
I heard the ones that do have an insurance pay around 400-450 dollars a month, that is for yourself and your neighbour that doesn't have an insurance. Here in Holland we all pay around 150 dollars, because we all have insurance.
Maybe it will take some time for America until the system is as good as it is here, but at least this is the beginning of an important change. Just my opinion with the little information I have on this health care bill.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."Oh its ok. Im not mad at you at all!! ***hugs***
I dont think we will see eye to eye on this either. Its ok to debate it though.
Have you ever lived in a country that didnt have socialism?