TIAI January 7

brunob12

<!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-t ... -a-mystery<!-- m -->



Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the L.A. County Coroner cannot pinpoint the time of Michael Jackson's death ... but paramedics say when they arrived they believed he was dead for at least an hour and maybe longer.

Dr. Conrad Murray's statement to LAPD detectives lays out a timeline in which Dr. Murray administered Propofol at 10:40 AM and then ten minutes later (10:50) he walked out of the room, went to the bathroom and returned two minutes later (10:52) to find Jackson was not breathing. He did not have anyone call 911 until 12:21 PM ... approximately an hour-and-a-half later.

Sources say cops are suspicious of Dr. Murray's account. They say when Dr. Murray was interviewed by them two days after Jackson died -- his lawyer by his side -- the doctor's account seemed "scripted."

So when did Jackson really die? Rigor mortis typically doesn't set in for at least 3 hours, and often longer. If rigor mortis has not set in, the only way to approximate time of death is by body temperature. Once a person dies, their temperature eventually rises or falls to the temperature of the environment. For example, if Jackson were in a 70 degree room, his body temp would drop to 70. The body temperature typically drops a degree to a degree and a half per hour, but it's dependent on the ambient temperature.

Here's the problem -- when paramedics arrived the room was sweltering. So Jackson's body temperature could register in the 90 degree range, even if he were dead for a long time. But we're told paramedics did not get a read on his body temp because they were busy performing CPR.

Bottom line -- it's possible Jackson could have been dead much longer than Dr. Murray said. There's no scientific way of knowing.

mjssoulmate

That Murray's testimony seemes scripted is a given.

Is it really not possible to determine time of death when they play around with the room temperature? Seems to me that they could at least zoom in on a specific time span with some calculations.

So the paramedics didn't take the temperature, but they worked on him and reported that the body was cold to the touch. I guess turning the heat up didn't work?

Andrea

This re-direct is perfect! Murray - scripted. Time of death - can't be determined...

I'm still confused as to whether there was a body there or not that day but it sounds like the body was not "freshly" dead. Sorry, that sounds crass but I can't think of how else to put it. The body would need to have been donated somehow and there's gotta be a legal loophole in there that Michael won't get in trouble. IF there was a body that is, I'm still not convinced on that. All I know is that if there was a body, it sure wasn't Michael's.

a18wheelslady

I think there was a body but it was not Michael.
think of it this way they have a body and it goes to the hospital and then to the coroner.
then when it goes missing from the staple center the body is removed and put some place.
if there is no body to reflect back on then how can there be a crime.
and with the propfol could that be why Murry was keeping up with the CPR to keep the blood
moving to get it through the body.

suspicious mind

i am guessing that anti anxiety medication would be given to hospice patient near the end of their life. i have also wondered if propfol could be given to the corpse and the act of cpr would help it to enter the body and look like it was taken before death. does that even sound plausible? <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> or awful thought here someone wanted to speed up the process so that they could get the body where they needed it to be . <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( --> question now is who and would michael really be involved in something like this or did someone just take matters into their own hands trapping michael in this mess.

i know i know jacket

bec

BS! BS BS BS

Complete Bull Shit.

That's is totally completely and utterly not true.

ADDING HEAT SPEEDS UP DECOMPOSITION. Decomposition begins the moment cellular death occurs. This is not difficult or unusual, people have an annoying habit of dying in less then perfectly climate controlled environments all the time.

YOU MEAN TO TELL ME YOU CANNOT MEDICALLY AND SCIENTIFICALLY DETERMINE A TIME OF DEATH IN THE DEEP SOUTH IN AUGUST? COME ON!

Ok sorry I'll chill.

But it really baffles me, like mouth open, jaw slack baffles me that the gen pub doesn't see through this facade. I wonder if Michael is equally surprised, or did he know this is how they would react? Did he expect this level of numb, mindless, acceptance of what the TV people say?

This is scary. People really are under complete control by the flashing picture box.

suspicious mind

BS! BS BS BS

Complete Bull Shit.

That's is totally completely and utterly not true.

ADDING HEAT SPEEDS UP DECOMPOSITION. Decomposition begins the moment cellular death occurs. This is not difficult or unusual, people have an annoying habit of dying in less then perfectly climate controlled environments all the time.

YOU MEAN TO TELL ME YOU CANNOT MEDICALLY AND SCIENTIFICALLY DETERMINE A TIME OF DEATH IN THE DEEP SOUTH IN AUGUST? COME ON!

Ok sorry I'll chill.

But it really baffles me, like mouth open, jaw slack baffles me that the gen pub doesn't see through this facade. I wonder if Michael is equally surprised, or did he know this is how they would react? Did he expect this level of numb, mindless, acceptance of what the TV people say?

This is scary. People really are under complete control by the flashing picture box.

i still can't get over the thought that people don't seem to have much reaction to the thought of the guy gettin put to sleep every night for so many weeks, like people do it all the time or something.

Andrea

Hmm I see what you're saying Bec. Common sense does seem to elude a lot of the general public unfortunately and people will believe whatever they're told to believe.

The article doesn't actually say anything about decomposition although I find it hard to believe that a time of death can't be pinpointed just because the alleged body was in an allegedly hot room.

ladymjc

This re-direct is perfect! Murray - scripted. Time of death - can't be determined...

I'm still confused as to whether there was a body there or not that day but it sounds like the body was not "freshly" dead. Sorry, that sounds crass but I can't think of how else to put it. The body would need to have been donated somehow and there's gotta be a legal loophole in there that Michael won't get in trouble. IF there was a body that is, I'm still not convinced on that. All I know is that if there was a body, it sure wasn't Michael's.

Ah I got the same thought a couple of nights ago. After doing some research: here is what I came up with it. <!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=99&t=17076<!-- l -->

RK

Something about the pic they chose makes me call double. Different ears. This one has bigger lobes.

bec

<!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm<!-- m -->

Forensic science provides a number of solutions to solving the mystery question of when a person died. Generally, the longer it has been since the death, the less accurate the estimation given by forensic pathologists.
<snip>
Police arriving at the scene of crime should be capable of estimating how long a person has been dead for, by judging from the body temperature and stiffness of the corpse. However, a more accurate evaluation of the time since death must be made by a forensic pathologist in the forensic laboratory. The pathologists/coroners record the temperature of the body, the temperature at the scene of crime, the weight of the victim and all other appropriate variables, which are then applied to a formula designed to predict the time since death. The core body temperature drops at an estimated rate of 0.8K each hour from the time of death, but is ever-changing dependant on the surrounding temperature, humidity levels, air movement and fat levels in the body. Thus, the less time that has surpassed since the death, the less variables which will affect the prediction.
Copyright 2004-2005 Thinkquest Team 00206
Hardening
Top^
Stiffening of the corpse occurs between just 30 minutes and 3 hours after death. The process is called rigor mortis and occurs as the muscles in the body begin to stiffen from a lack of blood and oxygen. Rigor mortis first becomes apparent in the eyelids and jaws of the victim and spreads throughout the whole body in approximately 6 to 12 hours, before receding again after another 6 to 12 hours. Occasionally, stiffening of the body may not even occur if the surrounding temperatures are very low, while the process occurs a lot quicker in muscles that were quite active before death. Like body temperature, the evidence provided by the level of muscle stiffening becomes of little use after a long period since death.
Copyright 2004-2005 Thinkquest Team 00206
Truth Lies In The Eyes
Top^
The eyes of a victim can also hold answers to the time of death, as a thin cloudy film is developed over the eye within 3 hours after death has occurred. The eyeballs become softer as a result of less fluid pressure behind the eye and the degree to which this has occurred can be used as a measure of the time since death. Again, a less common procedure for deaths that evidently occurred out of the limit of several days.
Copyright 2004-2005 Thinkquest Team 00206
Skin Colour
Top^
The colour of the corpse will also help determine the time of death from about 48 hours and onwards. From approximately 48 hours after death, bacteria begins to breed on the skin, giving the skin an evidently greenish tone. The tinge starts in the lower stomach area, spreading outwards and affecting the hands and feet last. Approximately 4-7 days after death, the skin will acquire a marble-like appearance, as the veins in the body become closer to the surface, thus becoming more easily visible.
Copyright 2004-2005 Thinkquest Team 00206
Blood Pooling
Top^
The pooling of the blood can be a vital clue in determining the time of death and is known as hypostasis. This occurs when the blood ceases flowing, settling in the lowest parts of the body and in turn, causing the skin to become pink and red in colour. This process is complete in up to 6 hours after death. The main use of blood pooling analysis actually lies in helping to determine the death manner (noting that the location of the blood pools indicates the upright position of the body at the time of blood pooling) The process does however, form a method of predicting the time since death.

The Digestive System
Top^

The digestive system and gut contents of a victim can provide important clues to the time of death of a victim. Chewed food will firstly pass through the oesophagus and then down into the stomach within seconds of the initial swallowing. After 3 hours, the food then leaves the stomach and heads toward the small intestines. 6 hours after eating a meal, the food will have traveled half way through the small intestines and begin moving through the large intestine. Where the victim's small intestine is empty, it suggests that the victim ate his or her last meal approximately 8 hours before death. The digestive process usually takes a bit more than a day, but it can be affected by sickness, liquid intake, fear or drug intake.

Pathologists also briefly note that correct level of food digestion corresponds to its location in the digestive system. In the rare case that a clever murderer wishes to delude investigators by attempting to bring forward the time of the victim's last meal (giving them an explanation for where they were at the victim's time of death), he/she may manually feed processed food (resembling that of chewed food) into the victim's stomach. If this is so, the food collected in the stomach will be much less digested than normal, since the periodic motion of the stomach stops after death. The food may indeed appear slightly broken down, due to the presence of the stomach acids, but any abnormalities are otherwise detectable. In older people or in those affected by the effects mentioned earlier (sickness, fear, drug/liquid intake), the efficiency of food digestion alters and it is left to pathologists to determine if the extent of the undigested food is great enough to suggest the mentioned scenario.

Body temperature is only one factor and OF COURSE room temp is taken into account as one of many variables. Nonsense being spun and reported!

bec

Ps. The only option left that makes sense is that they cannot determine the time of death of Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson is not dead.

Yambo3003

Ps. The only option left that makes sense is that they cannot determine the time of death of Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson is not dead.

Michael: Okay everybody, that's a wrap! *Smiling* <!-- s --><!-- s -->

bec

Ps. The only option left that makes sense is that they cannot determine the time of death of Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson is not dead.

Michael: Okay everybody, that's a wrap! *Smiling* <!-- s --><!-- s -->

I approach 'that's a wrap' day with mixed emotions, truth be told.

infinatetrinity

Ps. The only option left that makes sense is that they cannot determine the time of death of Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson is not dead.

Michael: Okay everybody, that's a wrap! *Smiling* <!-- s --><!-- s -->

I approach 'that's a wrap' day with mixed emotions, truth be told.

And the winner isssss Michael Jackson for being the one that left the room for a supposed couple of minutes(not Murray)to go to the bathroom and then reenters the bedroom as Conrad Murray to start this whole hoax...

jono

Something that stood out to me:

"For example, if Jackson were in a 70 degree room, his body temp would drop to 70. The body temperature typically drops a degree to a degree and a half per hour, but it's dependent on the ambient temperature.

Here's the problem -- when paramedics arrived the room was sweltering. So Jackson's body temperature could register in the 90 degree range, even if he were dead for a long time."

It's always the 7's and the 9's isn't it?? <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->

bec

90s would be resurrection temperature you know.

Grace

Ps. The only option left that makes sense is that they cannot determine the time of death of Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson is not dead.

Michael: Okay everybody, that's a wrap! *Smiling* <!-- s --><!-- s -->

<!-- s --><!-- s -->
It's not important but just for the records:
The "infamous" ambulance picture carried EXIF data:
<exif:DateTimeOriginal>2009-06-25T12:08:08-07:00
If time in the camera was set correctly (which is usually the case amongst professional photographers), the picture was taken 12:08, 18 minutes before the paramedics even arrived at 12:26.

So yes, in the end that would make a lot of sense to have 45 minutes of revival attempts at the house and finally a respiration bag with a dead person that appears to be unrecognizable and 15 years younger than his driver's license states (the latter was used to identify the person at the hospital). Oh btw, the dead person was revived at UCLA and regained a pulse. UCLA is said to be famous for bringing back the dead. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->

willddoMJ

i remember this story, as if it was yesterday <!-- s --><!-- s -->

simalves

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm

Forensic science provides a number of solutions to solving the mystery question of when a person died. Generally, the longer it has been since the death, the less accurate the estimation given by forensic pathologists.
<snip>
Police arriving at the scene of crime should be capable of estimating how long a person has been dead for, by judging from the body temperature and stiffness of the corpse. However, a more accurate evaluation of the time since death must be made by a forensic pathologist in the forensic laboratory. The pathologists/coroners record the temperature of the body, the temperature at the scene of crime, the weight of the victim and all other appropriate variables, which are then applied to a formula designed to predict the time since death. The core body temperature drops at an estimated rate of 0.8K each hour from the time of death, but is ever-changing dependant on the surrounding temperature, humidity levels, air movement and fat levels in the body. Thus, the less time that has surpassed since the death, the less variables which will affect the prediction.
Copyright 2004-2005 Thinkquest Team 00206

Body temperature is only one factor and OF COURSE room temp is taken into account as one of many variables. Nonsense being spun and reported!

The important thing in forensic science is

To tell the time of death they take the temperature of the body by inserting the thermometer instrument into the liver. They actually poke through the body to the liver. The liver temp gives them the accurate temp of the body and then they calculate according to the ambience temp and decide on the time of death.

Obviously they could not poke the body's liver here as they were still trying to resuscitate him.

GINAFELICIA

So there was a dead body there, but it was not Michael.......I try hard to believe this

michaelsupporter

I agree with Bec. An able-minded pathologist would be able to pinpoint a time of death despite the circumstances of room temperature etc. This is obviously another dramatization tactic. Isn't it incredible how something so real parallels the insane? This has to be an illusion as it truly does defy all logic. As I see it, the writer is working on the climax to the story. And it has been quite effective, too; considering the emotional investment expended once hooked. I suspect that every opportunity is being taken to generate more public awareness and interest in the case; hence the odd and very lengthy pre-trial hearing. if you allow it to be so, this can be likened to a nightmare. Are you scared yet???? I suggest we take a breath and wait for the "thriller"!

ignisaeternus

The important thing in forensic science is

To tell the time of death they take the temperature of the body by inserting the thermometer instrument into the liver. They actually poke through the body to the liver. The liver temp gives them the accurate temp of the body and then they calculate according to the ambience temp and decide on the time of death.

Obviously they could not poke the body's liver here as they were still trying to resuscitate him.

Absolutel... However- are there not other ways to establish Time of Death during the autopsy process? I don't remember if we ever got a "real time of death" other than the debated 2:26pm at the Hospital.

@Grace:

It's not important but just for the records:
The "infamous" ambulance picture carried EXIF data:
<exif:DateTimeOriginal>2009-06-25T12:08:08-07:00
If time in the camera was set correctly (which is usually the case amongst professional photographers), the picture was taken 12:08, 18 minutes before the paramedics even arrived at 12:26.

That is an amazing detail! You are correct, the time could be off, BUT it is unlikey as we are talking professional photographer. Have you seen the pic with the EXID stamp? Or have you heard or read about it- if so, can you share the source?

Thank you, TS for the redirect! "Scripted" seems to be the right term alright!

Rita Hayworth

They talked about the trial on the Joy Behar show last night (the first time she's ever brought up the MJ trial that I know of.) So I think this is going mainstream. Mark Geragos was on the panel and he said that he thought it would go to trial and also that the defense has some surprises. Mark Geragos was one of the original lawyers on the molestation trial (I believe) so I don't know if he knows anything. But they spent about 15 minutes on it. Joy Behar is not an MJ fan to say the least concerning the molestation trial but she was very anti-Murray last night...almost sympathatic to MJ. Maybe the tide is turning.

I'm not in a hurry for this to end. MJ has to make sure everything is carried out perfectly for all of this to work...besides, it's great entertainment.

loyalfan

to me .TS is doing his best to reassure us here......without actually saying the words we want to hear.............................

taty_2crazy

Ps. The only option left that makes sense is that they cannot determine the time of death of Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson is not dead.

lol I agree with you" bec " on that. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->