Sinderella » Sat Feb
Michael Jackson fans and supporters came together to support Deborah French in her attempt to STOP the sickening videos and accounts on Youtube aimed at Michael. Lets bring the rain and kick some fucking ass.
5 Another drop down list will appear:
- age
- colour
- disability
- ethnic origin
- gender identity
- national origin
race
- religion
- sex
- sexual orientation
- veteran status
The above list is double-talk by youtube as reporting these kind of videos does not really fit into the categories they show
The drop down list above, Sinderella, is not a Double –Talk by YOU Tube at all,
like you are stating above in your post, but actually is the list of the allowable categories in reporting true discrimination practices under the law
just thought to point this one fact out to you , if you thought it was just a double talk by you tube., <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
which it is not at all, but, these laws actually do dictate to all including YT.
Thus ,pls. keep in mind, YT also has to abide by them, when they make their decision, as to who is in real violation of those laws, and whose rights too are exactly and possibly being violated under the same laws.
Pls. Note also, the right spoken of here is including that of the posters of those vids,you are trying to get banned,,
as it relates to the posters rights to free speech and expression.(artistic mode in some instances etc.)
So, with that in mind pls.check out the link below, if you are interested to know more about wht the laws have to say about all your suggestion to
" bringing in Rain and KICKING some FUCKING ASS " business , to use your own words.. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Federal Laws Prohibiting Discrimination: Questions And Answers
Nov 21, 2009 ... Discriminatory practices under these laws also include: harassment on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability
Peace.
I hope you had a chance to read my reply post to you and all other posters who posted their disagreement with my take of this issue of banning and muzzling folks etc. It is my humble effort and hope too, to try to point to some sort of a balanced outlook to your mode/type of thinking/suggestion too, as I understand it to mean, of going around, to bring rain and KICKING SOME FUCKING ASS et. LOL.
Peace.
A simple "No, I'm not in," would have sufficed Supervision. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> We get it, nobody should have any limits placed on what they say or do or make videos about. I hope you are never on the receiving end of such a thing yourself, as you may not feel so strongly about the whole thing. Nonetheless, I get the impression you've got both hands tightly on that spoon and will continue to enjoy using it.
The rest of us will make use of the Dislike and Report buttons on YouTube or wherever as that's why they are there. If everyone sat back and allowed others to say and do whatever they like no matter how hateful then the world would be a very different place, and I for one believe freedom of speech goes both ways. They can say whatever they like but I can say just as loudly back what I think of their words. If enough people do the same and the hatemongers have their account shut down, that's their problem, not mine. The will of the people can and should make a change for the better. If it doesn't offend you, fair enough, but reams of spiel copied and pasted from the internet (I'm referring to the book thread here), aren't likely to convert many here I'm afraid. My moral code is not altered by reading what some so-called "expert" may say in some study or article. Just because it supports your point of view doesn't make it the one and only truth. I could likely find ten articles to support my point of view if I had the time or inclination, however I don't feel the need. My opinions are my own and do not require validation or backing up.
Some of the pages really freak me out, there are really nuts, some are from different religious groups, yesterday i received an e-mail from someone who called himself "Satan's child", it really freaked me out, he "promised me" that his "father" will harass me everywhere. I didn't even know that there are so many mentally ill people out there <!-- s:| -->:|<!-- s:| -->
Sinderella » Sat Feb
Michael Jackson fans and supporters came together to support Deborah French in her attempt to STOP the sickening videos and accounts on Youtube aimed at Michael. Lets bring the rain and kick some fucking ass.
5 Another drop down list will appear:
- age
- colour
- disability
- ethnic origin
- gender identity
- national origin
race
- religion
- sex
- sexual orientation
- veteran status
The above list is double-talk by youtube as reporting these kind of videos does not really fit into the categories they show
The drop down list above, Sinderella, is not a Double –Talk by YOU Tube at all,
like you are stating above in your post, but actually is the list of the allowable categories in reporting true discrimination practices under the law
just thought to point this one fact out to you , if you thought it was just a double talk by you tube., <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
which it is not at all, but, these laws actually do dictate to all including YT.
Thus ,pls. keep in mind, YT also has to abide by them, when they make their decision, as to who is in real violation of those laws, and whose rights too are exactly and possibly being violated under the same laws.
Pls. Note also, the right spoken of here is including that of the posters of those vids,you are trying to get banned,,
as it relates to the posters rights to free speech and expression.(artistic mode in some instances etc.)
So, with that in mind pls.check out the link below, if you are interested to know more about wht the laws have to say about all your suggestion to
" bringing in Rain and KICKING some FUCKING ASS " business , to use your own words.. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Federal Laws Prohibiting Discrimination: Questions And Answers
Nov 21, 2009 ... Discriminatory practices under these laws also include: harassment on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability
Peace.
I hope you had a chance to read my reply post to you and all other posters who posted their disagreement with my take of this issue of banning and muzzling folks etc. It is my humble effort and hope too, to try to point to some sort of a balanced outlook to your mode/type of thinking/suggestion too, as I understand it to mean, of going around, to bring rain and KICKING SOME FUCKING ASS et. LOL.
Peace.
As Trustno1 said
A simple "No, I'm not in," would have sufficed Supervision. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> We get it, nobody should have any limits placed on what they say or do or make videos about. I hope you are never on the receiving end of such a thing yourself, as you may not feel so strongly about the whole thing. Nonetheless, I get the impression you've got both hands tightly on that spoon and will continue to enjoy using it.
Firstly-It is not my own personal drop down list,this thread was created by using what Ms Deborah French was using as guidelines for those wanting to get involved and help stop the videos and channels.If you read my previous comments you would see this is an extention of her mission.I simply copy and pasted what she was sending out over that first weekend.I think her writing about it being a double talk is quite insignificant in the grand scheme of things IMO.
I get that you like to go against whatever I say,this is exactly the same as your feelings on letting peadophiles publish books about Michael and whilst using his image and name gain profit.If everyone was able to say and do whatever they wanted and used freedom of speech as their excuse the world would implode on itself.There are limits to how far that excuse goes and that man from my other thread is not entitled to use it.Neither are the people making videos about Michael .He was set up and proven not guilty.
Where in any realm of the universe is it ok for people to ignore the verdict and continue on with dragging his name through the mud and making accusations that are untrue and claim it is their right to freedom of speech?!
I do not share your views,you will not convince me otherwise no matter long and detailed you replies are.That is not to say I do not read them-I do and they are very well constructed and informative.I previously agreed with you to AN EXTENT that everyone should have freedom of speech but there is a line and when someone crosses it then that right should be removed.
I'm going to sound really blunt here but can I ask are you a Michael Jackson fan or just a hoax fan or possibly neither?
You don't seem to appear that bothered that this man is getting books written about him,lies told about him and disgusting videos full of lies and slander put up on the internet about him.
He has children.If you were in his shoes would you want your child seeing these things being directed at you?I am sure you would not.They deserve to be protected from the lies and slander as well as Michael.They are an extention of him.
People have been reporting the WHOLE channel and getting not only the vidoes removed but users banned.Sony and Universal have all aided this campaign and complained themselves.A long list of channels and vidoes have been removed due to them violating YT laws so the MJ community who are working on this mission are not doing so for nothing.If youtube disagreed they would have left them up and ignored the complaints.
I'm sorry but I honestly do not see where you are coming from and although I appriciate your presence on the forum and your attempt to be some sort of balance I personally will not be changing my mind,how I talk or think.
I am happy to help stop these people,if you feel otherwise that is fine but i'm not wrong for doing so.
As for quoting my statement of 'bringing the rain and kicking ass' three times in one post,that is a bit OTT.Bring the rain is a term used in the military for bringing the gun fire and taking down the enemy.It is used in relation to the idea that this forum is an army and we work together to bring down the people who we feel are out of order and are doing wrong to Michael's name,legacy,children etc.
Again,if you don't like how I talk or put things,that is not my problem.I do not have a 'wild west' approach to dealing with people,want to kick anyone in the mouth and I DO like to kick ass when the occassion calls for such action.
I am getting rather bored of having to defend my opinions,thoughts,and pesonality..to you.
I never see a video disrespecting MJ and just leave it. I try to report, flag as many FB, YT accounts and pages I can! Sick basterds <!-- s:x -->:x<!-- s:x -->
Regarding "Freedom of Speech" Let´s not forget what can´t be done when using it <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Defamation
In law, issuance of false statements about a person that injure his reputation or that deter others from associating with him. Libel and slander are the legal subcategories of defamation. Libel is defamation in print, pictures, or any other visual symbols. A libel plaintiff must generally establish that the alleged libel refers to him or her specifically, that it was published to others (third parties), and that some injury occurred as a result. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that public persons (e.g., celebrities or politicians) alleging libel may recover damages only if they prove that the statement in question was made with "actual malice" — i.e., with knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard for the truth (New York Times v. Sullivan, 1964). Slander is defamation by oral communication. An action for slander may be brought without alleging and proving special injury if the statement has a plainly harmful character, as by imputing to the plaintiff criminal guilt, serious sexual misconduct, or a characteristic negatively affecting his business or profession. The defense in defamation cases often takes the form of seeking to establish the truth of the statements in question.
Those videos are made with malice to portray Michael as something he is not and that is called Defamation.
<!-- s --><!-- s -->
I will go on repporting those who I can´t associate with. Their behaviour is despicable. Anyone can use "freedom of speech" and make a point to defend their ideals without falling in to defamation. People can do beter than that to give an opinion.
Yes for banning defamation videos. Michael was proven innocent.
Can we please focus on reporting the hater channels and videos instead of arguing with supervision. No need to write an answer all the time since supervision seems like it is so ok with him/her to see these videos and terrible books about Michael. Go and do nothing sv but pls stop changing the focus point of these important posts.
Pls intead of reporting a video, REPORT THE CHANNEL. That's way so much easier and more effective.
Can we please focus on reporting the hater channels and videos instead of arguing with supervision. No need to write an answer all the time since supervision seems like it is so ok with him/her to see these videos and terrible books about Michael. Go and do nothing sv but pls stop changing the focus point of these important posts.
Pls intead of reporting a video, REPORT THE CHANNEL. That's way so much easier and more effective.
by PureLove » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:38 pm Can we please focus on reporting the hater channels and videos instead of arguing with supervision.
No need to write an answer all the time since supervision seems like it is so ok with him/her to see these videos and terrible books about Michael.
Go and do nothing SV but pls stop changing the focus point of these important posts.
Dear pure Love sorry to see that you are altogether missing the point of my posts and seem to believe that there is an "argument " with SuperVision going on, when there really is not.
Various points of Disagreement over issues as expressed by the various posters reply to my view, as far as I am concerned, does not mean that there is an argument with SuperVision. NO . not at all imo.
As for my posts "taking the focus off the very important issues at hand"... as you mentioned above,
there is no doubt in my mind, that the issue of freedom of Speech and the Law dictating discriminatory practices,is so directly enterwined with this campaign ,
of some of MJ’s fans, banding together and filing complaints against various artistic outputs of people expressing themselves under their First Amendments Rights of FREEDOM of SPEECH,it is actually a very big important part to this issue, and is/should be included pack and parcel of the very core issue here being discussed imo..
.....Well, while I do respect your own views, I can only say, it is perhaps only people such as yourself,who would think that my post, that were meant to point to this very important consideration were actually
“taking the focus of these important posts” , as you put it,
the important post I suppose to count the posts ,that are generally inviting people/fans to rush on and join to “KICK ASS” as Sinderella mentioned in her initial post as well. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Well, be that as it may be,though you are entitled to your opinion, but pls. let me remind you, while all here have a right to completely ignore my posts as you suggested to all who would listen, and not reply to them at all, I do understand perfectly , that it is within their rights to do so.No worries for me there at all. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
But, pls. note, at the same time though, I also hold every right to respectfully post my opinion at any time that I wish to do so,
for all the thousands of other readers here, and even other members of this very same forum,
who may wish or look at their option ,and to read my presentation in my post, which I believed, may perhaps point to a more balanced and informed view of the situation.
As of your suggestion to me SV...
“SV... to go and do nothing”, well, I intend to do something for sure, and what that something maybe, really , I have not to necessarily share with you or anyone here, since that would not be any concern of yours or others here at all..
I hope, that you really do get a chance to read this post right here, and I hope too, when and if you do read it, that you are in no way insulted by what I had to say to you,
because and since, you are the one jumped in and actually had the nerves to try to dictate to me to stop expressing my views here, as I had done and am doing so now.
It is true that I am perfectly staying within my rights to try to share respectfully all my views with all who may wish to read about it.
.And no, again , I have to point out to you, that it was no argument with Supervision here at all, unless you just happen not to understand the terms "discussion" or even open " debate.
So, imo. your edict here for me to stop taking the focus off important posts etc.,and focus meaning ,I suppose, only the kind of posts that you yourself wish to read about,?
well, that mode of your thinking, clearly shows me, that you most definitely were in the wrong to even try to say such a thing to me, as it is evidenced by the fact,
LOL...that you soooo, overstepped the boundaries of your own respective rights, and are actually trying to step on mine. <!-- s:o -->:o<!-- s:o -->
Pls. note, we both are clearly equal members of this forum and are allowed to post our opinion freely and respectfully when ever it is we wish to do so.
And again to keep repeating this important point, no, there was no argument here with Supervision at all.
I only posted what I thought would be good to share with all readers and posters here, and thereafter, I saw that three posters expressed their disagreement with me, which I had said in my reply post to all three of them, that it was fine with me that they disagreed with me on points etc.
I did proceed to reply to all three posters with just one post of mine.
So I totally fail to see , exactly where it was that I SV started an argument with any of them.
Does intense intellectual and rhetorical discussion of an issue/topic and perhaps even an intense debate too, mean to equal a definition of an argument to you and others here? I do so wonder. :?
Also again, IF my posts and their very important contents imo. .totally failed to be understood by you,or you just happen to be in total disagreement about their merit and worth, as perhaps even possibly having had a chance to adding some sort of value,to the thought and outlook of other readers here, as well as including yourself, I am so sorry to see that happen.
The two posts I put up , all told, taking my own time and effort to do so,were no doubt in my mind, were really very well thought out ,if you will, were really well structured and to the point, and even prolly, instructive to some people, who may perhaps have had not even thought about the things I chose to talk about.
What is more, it seems to me, that in some instances some people may not even have had actually a single clue about the laws that actually do dictate the protection of peoples First Amendment Rights of FREEDOM of Speech, as it relates directly viz this campaign, you and other Fans of MJ are here are discussing. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Now,...in conclusion, to tell you the truth I am so disappointed in some of the responses of some of the posters, but I have said what I have to say to you in particular, and you, my dear, in your turn, if you read this post at all, perhaps ,per your very suggestion above,and if you wish to do so, you can go and ignore this post of mine altogether, or reply to it, if that is your own wish again, or do what ever it is you wish to do about it.!!!
What ever it may be you choose to do about it, Makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever,, just as long as you agree to respectfully stay in your place and I stay in mine, intact with our receptive rights as members of this forum, and retain both our rights to post whatever it may be we wish to share with other readers here, doing so, at any time and with whatever content we may choose to fill our own expressions and views about any issue here being discussed in this public forum.
Peace.
Firstly-It is not my own personal drop down list,this thread was created by using what Ms Deborah French was using as guidelines for those wanting to get involved and help stop the videos and channels. If you read my previous comments you would see this is an extension of her mission.
I simply copy and pasted what she was sending out over that first weekend
.
Sinderella, My apologies to you, if that was not your own initial post. ,
I may have not seen quotation marks there or perhaps did overlooked it, but nevertheless, I believed the issue was important for all concerned with this mission to really understand, so I tried to point it out in my post. Sorry about that.
I think her writing about it being a double talk is quite insignificant in the grand scheme of things IMO.
Well, I respect your opinion , but actually it is not insignificant at all, if the lady thinks all the categories listed there are just a double talk from you tube, when in reality it is the categories allowable by the law to bring forth discrimination charges, which is the main agenda of her mission?.
That sort of "loose" talk,imo. may really indicate that our “activist” lady is not at all concerned nor has taken her time to learn a few things about the law of discrimination/defamation , before she resorted to recruit other fans in the cause.
So, to me this lady, whoever she is, seems to be a bit long on gumption, and alot short on having done her homework well , as a basic requirement for an “activist” against discrimination.Sort of the blind leading the blind sort of thing if you will? <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Why,It seems like , she did not even have a clue that those categories listed were the law under which she is allowed to put forth and base her complaints, what ever it may be, and at all times to be honest in her complaint and also restrict herself to those allowed categories by law, and those categories only.
But here she was thinking those cats. were just “double talk” ? ha ha..
Inexcusable for her “job” description as an activist against discrimination imo.
I get that you like to go against whatever I say,this is exactly the same as your feelings on letting pedophiles publish books about Michael and whilst using his image and name gain profit.
Sinderella, I am disappointed to hear that you think what I have posted there has anything personally has to do with you. When it actually does not at all. My point as it is clarified in my post is about the importance of FREEDOM of SPEECH.
If my post sound similar here as in the book thread, , it is because the issue is still the same and only one I am trying to address, i.e. Freedom of Speech in both instances, i.e. the book and the vids etc.
And no, Sinderela, I do not feel that I am personally going against you at all, since you are just one person out of millions of MJ fans who prolly wish to participate in this campaign,though it seems you may be the organizer of sorts?. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
So since I do understand that you are just one voice the way I see it, I want you to know it is nothing personal at all on my part and I will still respect your choices no matter how I may not support them..
I truly believed, that my posts may have been instructive to some readers as it relates to FREEDOM of SPEECh and the First Amendment rights we all share , and I did leave it up to every reader here , to agree or disagree with what I had to say.
That is what Liberty is all about, as it covers yours as well as mine. .
If everyone was able to say and do whatever they wanted and used freedom of speech as their excuse the world would implode on itself.
There are limits to how far that excuse goes and that man from my other thread is not entitled to use it.
Well, I am not going over the same issue here again, if you feel that the author of the book after having done 8 years of research on his subject matter, is not entitled to use and/or publish his “findings” and reports, to share with the public at large, then that remains still only your own view and opinion until the law says otherwise.
And no it is not an "excuse" that this author is using as you say above in your post, but rather , he is exercising his rights for free speech, no matter how it may look to you and I as an "EXCUSE" .
So, based on the above reasoning, I believe the law maybe be on his side, and that is the real reason his book is listed at Amazon , a company, which I am sure has untold numbers of high powered attorneys to advise them about their rights to distribute this sort of material, as well as all rights concerning the author himself and his controversial material.
Neither are the people making videos about Michael .
( i,e. NO RIGHTS for FREEDOM of Speech?)
Well, the people can make the videos to express themselves which ever way they choose just as long as they do not step on someone’s rights or are in violation of the existing laws of discrimination and defamation.
If they happen to violate any of the laws concerning discrimination , I do agree, that they deserve to be punished and so..... away they go.
And in that point then, you and I are in total agreement,mind you,however , only, in a perfect world, where there may be an absence or no bias judgment against this sort of "trouble makers ".
Re. Michael Jackson and Pedophila:
He was set up and proven not guilty.
Where in any realm of the universe is it ok for people to ignore the verdict and continue on with dragging his name through the mud and making accusations that are untrue and claim it is their right to freedom of speech?!
Well, now, here you speak of several things at once.
First you seem to believe, that if a court of law finds some alleged "criminal" as not guilty, that an "acquittal of all charges" would or should automatically mean, that, that person is not guilty of the alleged charges, and is in true fact and in essence truly "Totally innocent ".
If you are thinking that, then of course I have to disagree with you, since that sort of reasoning, I am sure you do see, is not even logical to start with.
So, while I am not insinuating here anything in particular about MJ’s case in particular, but really, every fool in this world of ours knows, that justice can miscarry and money too walks and B.S. talks.
For instance,as a comparison, you recall, that O.J Simpson too was found not guilty, but for better or worse though, that man still remains guilty as hell, in the eyes of many millions of people. So it is with Mike.
Secondly, The court of Public Opinion about Mike and his "innocence" is not something that MJ fans or even his family or executors of his estate, can stop or alter forever and ever,
Especially not imo. by trying to dam other people from speaking out loud about their own take of things about Mike and his relationship with the boys etc.,coming out in the open and writing a book about it, or making a vid etc. all things protected under the individual liberty laws. FREE Speech to cite the issue here again.
I do not share your views,you will not convince me otherwise no matter long and detailed you replies are.
It was not my aim ever at all to change your mind about anything at all.
You are a free person the same as I am. You got my blessing to do what it is you believe you must do for MJ for what ever reason of your own.
Sinderela wrote:
That is not to say I do not read them-I do and they are very well constructed and informative.
Well, thank you for taking time to read my post. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> That lets me know, that it was not a total waste of my time after all, even if the contents there, are not “accepted” and agreed with by you or other posters, at least if some did read my post, I hope they walked away with something of value from it's content etc. for themselves.
I previously agreed with you to AN EXTENT that everyone should have freedom of speech but there is a line and when someone crosses it then that right should be removed.
Well, we seem to come to an Agreement already about the line crossing etc. As I have posted to also show, that Freedom is a real Paradox.
It you and I can prove without resorting to emotional reasoning alone, that people have crossed the line so clearly, and the law agrees with us , then yes, we are in the right to demand that the laws should be respected, as a matter of course for all concerned you and I included.
I'm going to sound really blunt here but can I ask are you a Michael Jackson fan or just a hoax fan or possibly neither?
Well, I am happy to tell you, Sinderella, that I am not just an MJ fan, but actually one of those real die hard MJ fans lol.
What is more, it is true also, that I have been a fan of Michael , for at least over forty years.
I am also proud to tell you here, I never ever let no chance escape me to support MJ and also go and see the great man where ever and when ever I could
Lucky me, in my life time I did get a chance to sit front and center and see the Magic of MIke first hand. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
Saw him perform more than a dozen times. , close and personal.
So, I am not one of those Jane come lately fans if you will and if you thought that, judging form my post etc. . <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> . Those are priceless moments I will always treasure. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> And you Sinderella ? How long have you been admiring Mike if I may ask you a blunt question of my own in return?
Sinderella wrote:
You don't seem to appear that bothered that this man is getting books written about him,lies told about him and disgusting videos full of lies and slander put up on the internet about him.
Well, actually ,no, I do not like to see people smearing him around , but honestly though , all things being equal, and Mike is a public celebrity in the public domain and I do understand that he is thereyby an easy target for satire and jokes etc.
Nothing new there at all , as far as I can recall and remember, for me now suddenly get all out upset about it all, and to start a campaign to block people from saying wht they got to say. Respecting people's rights is all. You know? .so, yes at times I am more bothered by people's effort wrongly to try to suppress open information exchange among free people in a free country. I do not look at T.V nor read the tabs. nor have I read the book of this man yet. though I bought Halperin's book just to read anything at all to d with MJ, after 6-25-09 after such heartbreak I felt about his premature "death".
But, to resort wht I myself call a sort of coercive move of banning people, to me is a very obnoxious and ugly thing to do in a democratic society.
Besides Mike knows it is part and parcel of his fame and fortune and comes with the territory sometimes unfortunately . Rhinoceros Skin needed as Michel himself had said many times before.
OR in the alternative, Mike had suggested ...
"Burn the tabloids ..ha ha.. <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Well, in this instance then, it may the story of follow the leader , I suppose? <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Sinderella wrote:
He has children.
Well, I do know about the kids and all that, but, If I were MIKe KOP, known to billions of people around the world,as an almost a household word to boot, yes I would expect to see myself as well as perhaps my kids and fam etc. of running into a situation of being exposed to some things being said about their daddy/family member etc. .i.e.
some alternative/contrary views said and written about me regardless of it’s truism. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
,
That is why celebrities hire “expert” PR people,to help mold and perpetuate the image they hope their public would admire and accept without too much of question about them .
But sometimes that sort of effort does fail, and the public just sticks to their own views no matter what .
For me it is easy to understand that how such a thing could happen .i.e. billions could not possibly agree with one voice about Mike and the boys relationship or any other matter included,even people speculating about him about his numerous plastic surgeries for instance.
Heck,what can I tell you, folks did not even agree in one voice about Jesus and his Love message, and our Lord was crucified by the world, even he did nothing wrong.
So, is Michael to be an exception to that rule or what? And if so , on what grounds and what is the possibility of people being “forced “ to accept the “innocent” verdict? Especially, when it seems clear, that they clearly still got their own doubts about Mike’s innocence?
If you were in his shoes would you want your child seeing these things being directed at you?
I am sure you would not.They deserve to be protected from the lies and slander as well as Michael. They are an extension of him.
Well, no, and I disagree about the kids being an extension of Michael at all in a greater sense.
Those kids , I so hope, have their own individuality and I pray that folks do not look at them as Michael Jackson the “freak” kids.
No. the kids really deserve a real chance to impact the world in their own way. The fact that they are MJ's kids in fact, may even be a hindrance to them depending who is looking at Mike’s life notwithstanding his phenomenal talent with which not many or any people in their right mind are in dispute.
As for protecting them now in their formative years about the press/yt vids and books etc. going off about their dad, well that responsibility clearly lays in the hands of their caretakers not the fans at all imo.
.We are not the ones raising these kids, we don’t know what they are allowed to see, and what they already know about MJ and bad press etc.
Maybe the kids are already being taught to be tough against such report who knows really how MJ handled it with them and now the guardians of the kids? . .
.
People have been reporting the WHOLE channel and getting not only the vidoes removed but users banned.Sony and Universal have all aided this campaign and complained themselves.
A long list of channels and vidoes have been removed due to them violating YT laws so the MJ community who are working on this mission are not doing so for nothing.
If youtube disagreed they would have left them up and ignored the complaints
Good to know there is a measure of successes achieved in that direction.
Would be good idea, to list the vids indicated and see how the work will progress and check it off the list as they come down off the air if they do and how soon and for what reason etc. (just a suggestion is all <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> .
As for Sony and Universal, and their “support” and protest about this, I believe,it seems to me, that
they are more concerned with the copyright laws being abused,rather than "discrimination against Mike himself ,which issue , as I imagine would be harder to prove in court,
especially if MJ is dead now, and can not be said per se, to still sustain personal hurt anymore, though his TM name and legacy could become an issue here?
So, I feel, If these corps, were concerned so much about that, why not sue the the man with that book if they think they got a chance to block him and his book legally?
I'm sorry but I honestly do not see where you are coming from and although I appreciate your presence on the forum and your attempt to be some sort of balance I personally will not be changing my mind,how I talk or think.
You state here that you do not see where I am coming from , and that is A –OKAY by me, you do not have to see anything about what I got to say at all. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
just keep on keeping on and do your own thing and don’t worry about what I had to say about it.
I have told you already that I am not here to try to change your mind and how you talk and think.
That is your own business not mine.
I am happy to help stop these people,if you feel otherwise that is fine but i'm not wrong for doing so.
Well, as I have said do your thing Sinderella,...what ever you feel is right...and I will do what I feel is right, which for me is to do my utmost to respect other peoples rights even when I myself bitterly disagree with their views. After all, Freedom of Speech is not called an ideal, for nothing <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> .
As for quoting my statement of 'bringing the rain and kicking ass' three times in one post,that is a bit OTT.
Bring the rain is a term used in the military for bringing the gun fire and taking down the enemy.It is used in relation to the idea that this forum is an army and we work together to bring down the people who we feel are out of order and are doing wrong to Michael's name,legacy,children etc.
o.k., I understand ..
.as in “ Bring on the Rain.
..MJ’s ARMY of LOVE “..o.k. I got it <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> .
Again,if you don't like how I talk or put things,that is not my problem.
I see you are trying to make this convo go in personal way. Where did I say that I don ‘t like HOW YOU Talk...I only quoted you is all. And I can do so for as many times as I wish in my own post? OR? and if you do not agree , I suppose that would not be my problem either . OR?
I do not have a 'wild west' approach to dealing with people,want to kick anyone in the mouth and I DO like to kick ass when the occassion calls for such action.
O.k. whatever is your cup of tea, and I pray it may not be too often you see or feel that there is an occasion for you to have to reall KICK some ASS LOL.
BTW.Kicking ass ,and all that type of talk , to me personally, reeks of some sort of a violent impetus, ,
as I understand myself here written in your post . Could be wrong of course and you mean it as a figure of speech?. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> Sinderella wrote:
I am getting rather bored of having to defend my opinions,thoughts,and pesonality..to you.
ho hummmm, No one that I can see, has asked you to defend your self your personality , not to me or anyone else here at all, as far as I can see, and certainly not MOI.OR?
Sinderella, the whole matter of my post, was not to be personal with you at all. .
FREEDOM of Speech was my topic and still is..
And such then, I do not see your name listed there as it’s enemy, or even my name listed there as it’s original author or anything like that .
So, it is safe to say our discussion is not at all about our personalities, but rather is only about the issue of this campaingn and the ideal of individual liberty FOS.
Sinderella to tell you the truth ,
Well,I am also getting pretty bored by all this misunderstanding and therefore, I am done with this issue, seeing how the thing is gone well over it’s intended purpose by my initial post..
Perhaps my whole talk of such an high ideal, such as Freedom of Speech, which is a vast and quite interesting subject to discuss and debate about, as as actually done in various academic circles, and among legislators as well etc etc.,
it could really be that,who knows, that this sort of an abstract ideal,could have been way to high of an intricate thought provoking process, too complicated to be discussed here, on this venue, and on this very small thread on a hoax death forum no less. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Regarding "Freedom of Speech" Let´s not forget what can´t be done when using it
you are right of course , Gema, that it cuts both ways.
That is why the laws have to be protective of majority rule and monopolies on views and actions of all people in general and their perceived 'rights to shut people up etc. ..
My view in general is:
A million Chinese as the saying goes, could not shout and scream and kick about, just to make a thing be right, if it never was right and true to begin with.
As in the Gay freedom issues for instance, there are still many people in this world, that wish the Gay people would stay classified as mentally ill, and would have been forced to stay in their closet for ever and ever.
Freedom of speech has made such a huge difference there as we all know, about wht is being allowed today for Gay people to be recognized as human beings with rights of their own , and allowed to legally marry etc etc..
Gema wrote:
RE : Defamation
Read more: <!-- m -->http://www.answers.com/topic/defamation#ixzz1E9TR1rad<!-- m --> Those videos are made with malice to portray Michael as something he is not and that is called Defamation.
Well, as I have said to the ladies above Gema,and in my initial post,
the law itself provides us all with a means of redress. for any legitimate discrimination charges proven with consideration and debate in the court of law i.e.through the the laws of DEFAMATION.
The issue pro freedom of speech is ,I insist still, for all of us to behave in a responsible way and at the same time , to be vigilant so that no one’s voice is suppressed based only on feelings and whims of some groups of people .That is my only concern. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
The difference being, that it is possible, that People may really feel violated, or they are just only really out to suppress the truth in some instances as well.
And also, you may agree, a lot of these types of complaints are purely subjective issues, that have to do with the way people feel and wish to direct their own emotion etc
Gema wrote: I will go on reporting those who I can´t associate with. Their behavior is despicable.
O.k. you as well as I also have freedom to go against whatever we disagree with, just as long as you, as well as I, do not try to step on others rights, as I said over and over again lol.. <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
But , pls also keep in mind “those who you can not associate with” also have a right of their own.
And also pls. note , that your own value system should not, in any case, be anyone else's litmus test nor a guideline to be used about who is right and who is wrong either, in the greater sense of people’s liberties, to live and express themselves as they wish within the allowable laws, and that is so, even you can not, choose not to associate with them for your own reason .
Gema wrote: Anyone can use "freedom of speech" and make a point to defend their ideals without falling in to defamation. People can do better than that to give an opinion.
Well, sure they could do better, you are right, and some are even saying they are doing better as it relates to MJ and his “sexuality” again and specifically so.
Consider, for instance the tale gone by just a year ago, about that fat boy coming out on T.V and saying he was Mike’s homosexual lover.
For which “offense” he had to call the FBI for protection of his life.
Shame, total Shame, if you ask me lol. <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( -->
A classic example of censorship through the principle of “good old might is right”type of thingy? <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->lol ,
.
Did anyone of the protesters, MJ fans I assume they were, thought about ,
What if the man was telling the truth by chance ?
Did that man not have a right to say wht he had to say, if he had wished to talk about said "relationship",
even,.... no matter he may have been at the same time exploiting his relationship with Mike etc. for his own profit or his five minutes of fame etc. in the whole bargain?
what say you fairly speaking about that Gema?
Even Dr. Klein, MJ’s doc of 25 long yrs. backed him up when the man claimed openly as having been one of Mike’s homosexual lovers, but nooooo, the fans once again did not like what this man had to say at all once again.. <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
Result????
..hmmm what else?
Of Course.
Threatened . ha ha... <!-- s --><!-- s --> ... <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Gema wrote:
Yes for banning defamation videos. Michael was proven innocent.
O.k. already answered this question above.
but..to touch briefly the issue here again, As for Mike being ‘proven” innocent etc. etc.
. Getting an Acquittal, does not mean jack S..T.,.... when it is basically a well known fact, that at times, justice can be bought, or does miscarry and therefore a verdict of “acquittal” is most definitely does not necessarily equal to an automatic total proof of “innocence” of any alleged criminal , as in the alternative also a “guilty’ verdict does not necessarily always proof a measure of total guilt.
As is well known to most of us here, some truly innocent people have been waiting around in death row for yrs and yrs on appeal, waiting to be executed, and lo and behold, by some miracle, they get sprung in the end.
. So pls.keep in mind this could very well be/is the consideration here as well. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
MashMike, do you know what these groups' names mean? What does "El pasado OSCURO que Michael Jackson llevó a la TUMBA" mean? I tried to use Google translate but didn't get what it means exactly. When we're reporting those FB groups are we going to choose "targets based on gender and orientation OR sexual explicit content? I would be appreciated if you could help. Thank you.
For the ones who reported the videos and channels, you can report them more than once. Do not give up after you once report them.
Supervision, get out of this thread. You have stated your opinion and if you don't want to cooperate fine, but stay out of this thread.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Even if I agree with most of your last post reply to me, since you talk about the core meaning of freedom of speech and rights understanding the term defamation not being biased by emotions, and you gave good examples of it, I still will use my "freedom of speech" based on my and only perception, as it goes for the other side, up to now, I have clear what your position is and you have clear mine <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> "your freedom of speech" stops where "my freedom of speech starts" and HATE should not be used to mascarade "freedom of speech" as those channels are doing. They use hate and defamation.
Regarding Klein´s nephew I must admit that I was shocked with people´s reactions, as if to be gay is a terrible thing to be accused of.
Being gay is not criminal (at least in civilized countries..) but being a pedo is, and Michael, once again, is not.
Comments
Thank you so much. Sinderella made a post already about the book. Thank you both. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
You are most welcome,Thank you for bringing it to our attention
~MJARMY of L.O.VE~
The drop down list above, Sinderella, is not a Double –Talk by YOU Tube at all,
like you are stating above in your post,
but actually is the list of the allowable categories in reporting true discrimination practices under the law
just thought to point this one fact out to you , if you thought it was just a double talk by you tube., <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
which it is not at all, but, these laws actually do dictate to all including YT.
Thus ,pls. keep in mind, YT also has to abide by them, when they make their decision, as to who is in real violation of those laws, and whose rights too are exactly and possibly being violated under the same laws.
Pls. Note also, the right spoken of here is including that of the posters of those vids,you are trying to get banned,,
as it relates to the posters rights to free speech and expression.(artistic mode in some instances etc.)
So, with that in mind pls.check out the link below, if you are interested to know more about wht the laws have to say about all your suggestion to
" bringing in Rain and KICKING some FUCKING ASS " business , to use your own words.. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Federal Laws Prohibiting Discrimination: Questions And Answers
Nov 21, 2009 ... Discriminatory practices under these laws also include: harassment on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability
Peace.
I hope you had a chance to read my reply post to you and all other posters who posted their disagreement with my take of this issue of banning and muzzling folks etc.
It is my humble effort and hope too, to try to point to some sort of a balanced outlook to your mode/type of thinking/suggestion too, as I understand it to mean, of going around, to bring rain and KICKING SOME FUCKING ASS et. LOL.
Peace.
The rest of us will make use of the Dislike and Report buttons on YouTube or wherever as that's why they are there. If everyone sat back and allowed others to say and do whatever they like no matter how hateful then the world would be a very different place, and I for one believe freedom of speech goes both ways. They can say whatever they like but I can say just as loudly back what I think of their words. If enough people do the same and the hatemongers have their account shut down, that's their problem, not mine. The will of the people can and should make a change for the better. If it doesn't offend you, fair enough, but reams of spiel copied and pasted from the internet (I'm referring to the book thread here), aren't likely to convert many here I'm afraid. My moral code is not altered by reading what some so-called "expert" may say in some study or article. Just because it supports your point of view doesn't make it the one and only truth. I could likely find ten articles to support my point of view if I had the time or inclination, however I don't feel the need. My opinions are my own and do not require validation or backing up.
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Some of the pages really freak me out, there are really nuts, some are from different religious groups, yesterday i received an e-mail from someone who called himself "Satan's child", it really freaked me out, he "promised me" that his "father" will harass me everywhere. I didn't even know that there are so many mentally ill people out there <!-- s:| -->:|<!-- s:| -->
As Trustno1 said
Firstly-It is not my own personal drop down list,this thread was created by using what Ms Deborah French was using as guidelines for those wanting to get involved and help stop the videos and channels.If you read my previous comments you would see this is an extention of her mission.I simply copy and pasted what she was sending out over that first weekend.I think her writing about it being a double talk is quite insignificant in the grand scheme of things IMO.
I get that you like to go against whatever I say,this is exactly the same as your feelings on letting peadophiles publish books about Michael and whilst using his image and name gain profit.If everyone was able to say and do whatever they wanted and used freedom of speech as their excuse the world would implode on itself.There are limits to how far that excuse goes and that man from my other thread is not entitled to use it.Neither are the people making videos about Michael .He was set up and proven not guilty.
Where in any realm of the universe is it ok for people to ignore the verdict and continue on with dragging his name through the mud and making accusations that are untrue and claim it is their right to freedom of speech?!
I do not share your views,you will not convince me otherwise no matter long and detailed you replies are.That is not to say I do not read them-I do and they are very well constructed and informative.I previously agreed with you to AN EXTENT that everyone should have freedom of speech but there is a line and when someone crosses it then that right should be removed.
I'm going to sound really blunt here but can I ask are you a Michael Jackson fan or just a hoax fan or possibly neither?
You don't seem to appear that bothered that this man is getting books written about him,lies told about him and disgusting videos full of lies and slander put up on the internet about him.
He has children.If you were in his shoes would you want your child seeing these things being directed at you?I am sure you would not.They deserve to be protected from the lies and slander as well as Michael.They are an extention of him.
People have been reporting the WHOLE channel and getting not only the vidoes removed but users banned.Sony and Universal have all aided this campaign and complained themselves.A long list of channels and vidoes have been removed due to them violating YT laws so the MJ community who are working on this mission are not doing so for nothing.If youtube disagreed they would have left them up and ignored the complaints.
I'm sorry but I honestly do not see where you are coming from and although I appriciate your presence on the forum and your attempt to be some sort of balance I personally will not be changing my mind,how I talk or think.
I am happy to help stop these people,if you feel otherwise that is fine but i'm not wrong for doing so.
As for quoting my statement of 'bringing the rain and kicking ass' three times in one post,that is a bit OTT.Bring the rain is a term used in the military for bringing the gun fire and taking down the enemy.It is used in relation to the idea that this forum is an army and we work together to bring down the people who we feel are out of order and are doing wrong to Michael's name,legacy,children etc.
Again,if you don't like how I talk or put things,that is not my problem.I do not have a 'wild west' approach to dealing with people,want to kick anyone in the mouth and I DO like to kick ass when the occassion calls for such action.
I am getting rather bored of having to defend my opinions,thoughts,and pesonality..to you.
I never see a video disrespecting MJ and just leave it. I try to report, flag as many FB, YT accounts and pages I can! Sick basterds <!-- s:x -->:x<!-- s:x -->
Regarding "Freedom of Speech" Let´s not forget what can´t be done when using it <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Defamation
Read more: <!-- m -->http://www.answers.com/topic/defamation#ixzz1E9TR1rad<!-- m -->
Those videos are made with malice to portray Michael as something he is not and that is called Defamation.
I will go on repporting those who I can´t associate with. Their behaviour is despicable. Anyone can use "freedom of speech" and make a point to defend their ideals without falling in to defamation. People can do beter than that to give an opinion.
Yes for banning defamation videos. Michael was proven innocent.
Pls intead of reporting a video, REPORT THE CHANNEL. That's way so much easier and more effective.
EXACTLY.
Thank you PureLove.
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AND WHO HAS FCEBOOK, PLZ REPORT THESE PAGES AS WELL:
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Dear pure Love sorry to see that you are altogether missing the point of my posts and seem to believe that there is an "argument " with SuperVision going on, when there really is not.
Various points of Disagreement over issues as expressed by the various posters reply to my view, as far as I am concerned, does not mean that there is an argument with SuperVision. NO . not at all imo.
As for my posts "taking the focus off the very important issues at hand"... as you mentioned above,
there is no doubt in my mind, that the issue of freedom of Speech and the Law dictating discriminatory practices,is so directly enterwined with this campaign ,
of some of MJ’s fans, banding together and filing complaints against various artistic outputs of people expressing themselves under their First Amendments Rights of FREEDOM of SPEECH,it is actually a very big important part to this issue, and is/should be included pack and parcel of the very core issue here being discussed imo..
.....Well, while I do respect your own views, I can only say, it is perhaps only people such as yourself,who would think that my post, that were meant to point to this very important consideration were actually
“taking the focus of these important posts” , as you put it,
the important post I suppose to count the posts ,that are generally inviting people/fans to rush on and join to “KICK ASS” as Sinderella mentioned in her initial post as well. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Well, be that as it may be,though you are entitled to your opinion, but pls. let me remind you, while all here have a right to completely ignore my posts as you suggested to all who would listen, and not reply to them at all, I do understand perfectly , that it is within their rights to do so.No worries for me there at all. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
But, pls. note, at the same time though, I also hold every right to respectfully post my opinion at any time that I wish to do so,
for all the thousands of other readers here, and even other members of this very same forum,
who may wish or look at their option ,and to read my presentation in my post, which I believed, may perhaps point to a more balanced and informed view of the situation.
As of your suggestion to me SV...
“SV... to go and do nothing”, well, I intend to do something for sure, and what that something maybe, really , I have not to necessarily share with you or anyone here, since that would not be any concern of yours or others here at all..
I hope, that you really do get a chance to read this post right here, and I hope too, when and if you do read it, that you are in no way insulted by what I had to say to you,
because and since, you are the one jumped in and actually had the nerves to try to dictate to me to stop expressing my views here, as I had done and am doing so now.
It is true that I am perfectly staying within my rights to try to share respectfully all my views with all who may wish to read about it.
.And no, again , I have to point out to you, that it was no argument with Supervision here at all, unless you just happen not to understand the terms "discussion" or even open " debate.
So, imo. your edict here for me to stop taking the focus off important posts etc.,and focus meaning ,I suppose, only the kind of posts that you yourself wish to read about,?
well, that mode of your thinking, clearly shows me, that you most definitely were in the wrong to even try to say such a thing to me, as it is evidenced by the fact,
LOL...that you soooo, overstepped the boundaries of your own respective rights, and are actually trying to step on mine. <!-- s:o -->:o<!-- s:o -->
Pls. note, we both are clearly equal members of this forum and are allowed to post our opinion freely and respectfully when ever it is we wish to do so.
And again to keep repeating this important point, no, there was no argument here with Supervision at all.
I only posted what I thought would be good to share with all readers and posters here, and thereafter, I saw that three posters expressed their disagreement with me, which I had said in my reply post to all three of them, that it was fine with me that they disagreed with me on points etc.
I did proceed to reply to all three posters with just one post of mine.
So I totally fail to see , exactly where it was that I SV started an argument with any of them.
Does intense intellectual and rhetorical discussion of an issue/topic and perhaps even an intense debate too, mean to equal a definition of an argument to you and others here? I do so wonder. :?
Also again, IF my posts and their very important contents imo. .totally failed to be understood by you,or you just happen to be in total disagreement about their merit and worth, as perhaps even possibly having had a chance to adding some sort of value,to the thought and outlook of other readers here, as well as including yourself, I am so sorry to see that happen.
The two posts I put up , all told, taking my own time and effort to do so,were no doubt in my mind, were really very well thought out ,if you will, were really well structured and to the point, and even prolly, instructive to some people, who may perhaps have had not even thought about the things I chose to talk about.
What is more, it seems to me, that in some instances some people may not even have had actually a single clue about the laws that actually do dictate the protection of peoples First Amendment Rights of FREEDOM of Speech, as it relates directly viz this campaign, you and other Fans of MJ are here are discussing. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Now,...in conclusion, to tell you the truth I am so disappointed in some of the responses of some of the posters, but I have said what I have to say to you in particular, and you, my dear, in your turn, if you read this post at all, perhaps ,per your very suggestion above,and if you wish to do so, you can go and ignore this post of mine altogether, or reply to it, if that is your own wish again,
or do what ever it is you wish to do about it.!!!
What ever it may be you choose to do about it, Makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever,,
just as long as you agree to respectfully stay in your place and I stay in mine, intact with our receptive rights as members of this forum, and retain both our rights to post whatever it may be we wish to share with other readers here, doing so, at any time and with whatever content we may choose to fill our own expressions and views about any issue here being discussed in this public forum.
Peace.
Sinderella, My apologies to you, if that was not your own initial post. ,
I may have not seen quotation marks there or perhaps did overlooked it, but nevertheless, I believed the issue was important for all concerned with this mission to really understand, so I tried to point it out in my post. Sorry about that.
Well, I respect your opinion , but actually it is not insignificant at all, if the lady thinks all the categories listed there are just a double talk from you tube, when in reality it is the categories allowable by the law to bring forth discrimination charges, which is the main agenda of her mission?.
That sort of "loose" talk,imo. may really indicate that our “activist” lady is not at all concerned nor has taken her time to learn a few things about the law of discrimination/defamation , before she resorted to recruit other fans in the cause.
So, to me this lady, whoever she is, seems to be a bit long on gumption, and alot short on having done her homework well , as a basic requirement for an “activist” against discrimination.Sort of the blind leading the blind sort of thing if you will? <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Why,It seems like , she did not even have a clue that those categories listed were the law under which she is allowed to put forth and base her complaints, what ever it may be, and at all times to be honest in her complaint and also restrict herself to those allowed categories by law, and those categories only.
But here she was thinking those cats. were just “double talk” ? ha ha..
Inexcusable for her “job” description as an activist against discrimination imo.
Sinderella, I am disappointed to hear that you think what I have posted there has anything personally has to do with you. When it actually does not at all. My point as it is clarified in my post is about the importance of FREEDOM of SPEECH.
If my post sound similar here as in the book thread, , it is because the issue is still the same and only one I am trying to address, i.e. Freedom of Speech in both instances, i.e. the book and the vids etc.
And no, Sinderela, I do not feel that I am personally going against you at all, since you are just one person out of millions of MJ fans who prolly wish to participate in this campaign,though it seems you may be the organizer of sorts?. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
So since I do understand that you are just one voice the way I see it, I want you to know it is nothing personal at all on my part and I will still respect your choices no matter how I may not support them..
I truly believed, that my posts may have been instructive to some readers as it relates to FREEDOM of SPEECh and the First Amendment rights we all share , and I did leave it up to every reader here , to agree or disagree with what I had to say.
That is what Liberty is all about, as it covers yours as well as mine. .
Well, I am not going over the same issue here again, if you feel that the author of the book after having done 8 years of research on his subject matter, is not entitled to use and/or publish his “findings” and reports, to share with the public at large, then that remains still only your own view and opinion until the law says otherwise.
And no it is not an "excuse" that this author is using as you say above in your post, but rather , he is exercising his rights for free speech, no matter how it may look to you and I as an "EXCUSE" .
So, based on the above reasoning, I believe the law maybe be on his side, and that is the real reason his book is listed at Amazon , a company, which I am sure has untold numbers of high powered attorneys to advise them about their rights to distribute this sort of material, as well as all rights concerning the author himself and his controversial material.
Well, the people can make the videos to express themselves which ever way they choose just as long as they do not step on someone’s rights or are in violation of the existing laws of discrimination and defamation.
If they happen to violate any of the laws concerning discrimination , I do agree, that they deserve to be punished and so..... away they go.
And in that point then, you and I are in total agreement,mind you,however , only, in a perfect world, where there may be an absence or no bias judgment against this sort of "trouble makers ".
Well, now, here you speak of several things at once.
First you seem to believe, that if a court of law finds some alleged "criminal" as not guilty, that an "acquittal of all charges" would or should automatically mean, that, that person is not guilty of the alleged charges, and is in true fact and in essence truly "Totally innocent ".
If you are thinking that, then of course I have to disagree with you, since that sort of reasoning, I am sure you do see, is not even logical to start with.
So, while I am not insinuating here anything in particular about MJ’s case in particular, but really, every fool in this world of ours knows, that justice can miscarry and money too walks and B.S. talks.
For instance,as a comparison, you recall, that O.J Simpson too was found not guilty, but for better or worse though, that man still remains guilty as hell, in the eyes of many millions of people. So it is with Mike.
Secondly, The court of Public Opinion about Mike and his "innocence" is not something that MJ fans or even his family or executors of his estate, can stop or alter forever and ever,
Especially not imo. by trying to dam other people from speaking out loud about their own take of things about Mike and his relationship with the boys etc.,coming out in the open and writing a book about it, or making a vid etc. all things protected under the individual liberty laws. FREE Speech to cite the issue here again.
It was not my aim ever at all to change your mind about anything at all.
You are a free person the same as I am.
You got my blessing to do what it is you believe you must do for MJ for what ever reason of your own.
Well, thank you for taking time to read my post. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> That lets me know, that it was not a total waste of my time after all, even if the contents there, are not “accepted” and agreed with by you or other posters, at least if some did read my post, I hope they walked away with something of value from it's content etc. for themselves.
Well, we seem to come to an Agreement already about the line crossing etc. As I have posted to also show, that Freedom is a real Paradox.
It you and I can prove without resorting to emotional reasoning alone, that people have crossed the line so clearly, and the law agrees with us , then yes, we are in the right to demand that the laws should be respected, as a matter of course for all concerned you and I included.
Well, I am happy to tell you, Sinderella, that I am not just an MJ fan, but actually one of those real die hard MJ fans lol.
What is more, it is true also, that I have been a fan of Michael , for at least over forty years.
I am also proud to tell you here, I never ever let no chance escape me to support MJ and also go and see the great man where ever and when ever I could
Lucky me, in my life time I did get a chance to sit front and center and see the Magic of MIke first hand. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
Saw him perform more than a dozen times. , close and personal.
So, I am not one of those Jane come lately fans if you will and if you thought that, judging form my post etc. . <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> . Those are priceless moments I will always treasure. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
And you Sinderella ? How long have you been admiring Mike if I may ask you a blunt question of my own in return?
Well, actually ,no, I do not like to see people smearing him around , but honestly though , all things being equal, and Mike is a public celebrity in the public domain and I do understand that he is thereyby an easy target for satire and jokes etc.
Nothing new there at all , as far as I can recall and remember, for me now suddenly get all out upset about it all, and to start a campaign to block people from saying wht they got to say. Respecting people's rights is all. You know? .so, yes at times I am more bothered by people's effort wrongly to try to suppress open information exchange among free people in a free country. I do not look at T.V nor read the tabs. nor have I read the book of this man yet. though I bought Halperin's book just to read anything at all to d with MJ, after 6-25-09 after such heartbreak I felt about his premature "death".
But, to resort wht I myself call a sort of coercive move of banning people, to me is a very obnoxious and ugly thing to do in a democratic society.
Besides Mike knows it is part and parcel of his fame and fortune and comes with the territory sometimes unfortunately .
Rhinoceros Skin needed as Michel himself had said many times before.
OR in the alternative, Mike had suggested ...
"Burn the tabloids ..ha ha.. <!-- s
Well, in this instance then, it may the story of follow the leader , I suppose? <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Well, I do know about the kids and all that, but, If I were MIKe KOP, known to billions of people around the world,as an almost a household word to boot, yes I would expect to see myself as well as perhaps my kids and fam etc. of running into a situation of being exposed to some things being said about their daddy/family member etc. .i.e.
some alternative/contrary views said and written about me regardless of it’s truism. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
,
That is why celebrities hire “expert” PR people,to help mold and perpetuate the image they hope their public would admire and accept without too much of question about them .
But sometimes that sort of effort does fail, and the public just sticks to their own views no matter what .
For me it is easy to understand that how such a thing could happen .i.e. billions could not possibly agree with one voice about Mike and the boys relationship or any other matter included,even people speculating about him about his numerous plastic surgeries for instance.
Heck,what can I tell you, folks did not even agree in one voice about Jesus and his Love message, and our Lord was crucified by the world, even he did nothing wrong.
So, is Michael to be an exception to that rule or what? And if so , on what grounds and what is the possibility of people being “forced “ to accept the “innocent” verdict? Especially, when it seems clear, that they clearly still got their own doubts about Mike’s innocence?
Well, no, and I disagree about the kids being an extension of Michael at all in a greater sense.
Those kids , I so hope, have their own individuality and I pray that folks do not look at them as Michael Jackson the “freak” kids.
No. the kids really deserve a real chance to impact the world in their own way.
The fact that they are MJ's kids in fact, may even be a hindrance to them depending who is looking at Mike’s life notwithstanding his phenomenal talent with which not many or any people in their right mind are in dispute.
As for protecting them now in their formative years about the press/yt vids and books etc. going off about their dad, well that responsibility clearly lays in the hands of their caretakers not the fans at all imo.
.We are not the ones raising these kids, we don’t know what they are allowed to see, and what they already know about MJ and bad press etc.
Maybe the kids are already being taught to be tough against such report who knows really how MJ handled it with them and now the guardians of the kids? . .
.
Good to know there is a measure of successes achieved in that direction.
Would be good idea, to list the vids indicated and see how the work will progress and check it off the list as they come down off the air if they do and how soon and for what reason etc. (just a suggestion is all <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> .
As for Sony and Universal, and their “support” and protest about this, I believe,it seems to me, that
they are more concerned with the copyright laws being abused,rather than "discrimination against Mike himself ,which issue , as I imagine would be harder to prove in court,
especially if MJ is dead now, and can not be said per se, to still sustain personal hurt anymore, though his TM name and legacy could become an issue here?
So, I feel, If these corps, were concerned so much about that, why not sue the the man with that book if they think they got a chance to block him and his book legally?
You state here that you do not see where I am coming from , and that is A –OKAY by me, you do not have to see anything about what I got to say at all. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
just keep on keeping on and do your own thing and don’t worry about what I had to say about it.
I have told you already that I am not here to try to change your mind and how you talk and think.
That is your own business not mine.
Well, as I have said do your thing Sinderella,...what ever you feel is right...and I will do what I feel is right, which for me is to do my utmost to respect other peoples rights even when I myself bitterly disagree with their views.
After all, Freedom of Speech is not called an ideal, for nothing <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> .
o.k., I understand ..
.as in “ Bring on the Rain.
..MJ’s ARMY of LOVE “..o.k. I got it <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> .
I see you are trying to make this convo go in personal way. Where did I say that I don ‘t like HOW YOU Talk...I only quoted you is all. And I can do so for as many times as I wish in my own post? OR? and if you do not agree , I suppose that would not be my problem either . OR?
O.k. whatever is your cup of tea, and I pray it may not be too often you see or feel that there is an occasion for you to have to reall KICK some ASS LOL.
BTW.Kicking ass ,and all that type of talk , to me personally, reeks of some sort of a violent impetus, ,
as I understand myself here written in your post . Could be wrong of course and you mean it as a figure of speech?. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Sinderella wrote:
I am getting rather bored of having to defend my opinions,thoughts,and pesonality..to you.
ho hummmm, No one that I can see, has asked you to defend your self your personality , not to me or anyone else here at all, as far as I can see, and certainly not MOI.OR?
Sinderella, the whole matter of my post, was not to be personal with you at all. .
FREEDOM of Speech was my topic and still is..
And such then, I do not see your name listed there as it’s enemy, or even my name listed there as it’s original author or anything like that .
So, it is safe to say our discussion is not at all about our personalities, but rather is only about the issue of this campaingn and the ideal of individual liberty FOS.
Sinderella to tell you the truth ,
Well,I am also getting pretty bored by all this misunderstanding and therefore, I am done with this issue, seeing how the thing is gone well over it’s intended purpose by my initial post..
Perhaps my whole talk of such an high ideal, such as Freedom of Speech, which is a vast and quite interesting subject to discuss and debate about, as as actually done in various academic circles, and among legislators as well etc etc.,
it could really be that,who knows, that this sort of an abstract ideal,could have been way to high of an intricate thought provoking process, too complicated to be discussed here, on this venue, and on this very small thread on a hoax death forum no less. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Peace to you.
you are right of course , Gema, that it cuts both ways.
That is why the laws have to be protective of majority rule and monopolies on views and actions of all people in general and their perceived 'rights to shut people up etc. ..
My view in general is:
A million Chinese as the saying goes, could not shout and scream and kick about, just to make a thing be right, if it never was right and true to begin with.
As in the Gay freedom issues for instance, there are still many people in this world, that wish the Gay people would stay classified as mentally ill, and would have been forced to stay in their closet for ever and ever.
Freedom of speech has made such a huge difference there as we all know, about wht is being allowed today for Gay people to be recognized as human beings with rights of their own , and allowed to legally marry etc etc..
Well, as I have said to the ladies above Gema,and in my initial post,
the law itself provides us all with a means of redress. for any legitimate discrimination charges proven with consideration and debate in the court of law i.e.through the the laws of DEFAMATION.
The issue pro freedom of speech is ,I insist still, for all of us to behave in a responsible way and at the same time , to be vigilant so that no one’s voice is suppressed based only on feelings and whims of some groups of people .That is my only concern. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
The difference being, that it is possible, that People may really feel violated, or they are just only really out to suppress the truth in some instances as well.
And also, you may agree, a lot of these types of complaints are purely subjective issues, that have to do with the way people feel and wish to direct their own emotion etc
O.k. you as well as I also have freedom to go against whatever we disagree with, just as long as you, as well as I, do not try to step on others rights, as I said over and over again lol.. <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
But , pls also keep in mind “those who you can not associate with” also have a right of their own.
And also pls. note , that your own value system should not, in any case, be anyone else's litmus test nor a guideline to be used about who is right and who is wrong either, in the greater sense of people’s liberties, to live and express themselves as they wish within the allowable laws, and that is so, even you can not, choose not to associate with them for your own reason .
Well, sure they could do better, you are right, and some are even saying they are doing better as it relates to MJ and his “sexuality” again and specifically so.
Consider, for instance the tale gone by just a year ago, about that fat boy coming out on T.V and saying he was Mike’s homosexual lover.
For which “offense” he had to call the FBI for protection of his life.
Shame, total Shame, if you ask me lol. <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( -->
A classic example of censorship through the principle of “good old might is right”type of thingy? <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->lol ,
.
Did anyone of the protesters, MJ fans I assume they were, thought about ,
What if the man was telling the truth by chance ?
Did that man not have a right to say wht he had to say, if he had wished to talk about said "relationship",
even,.... no matter he may have been at the same time exploiting his relationship with Mike etc. for his own profit or his five minutes of fame etc. in the whole bargain?
what say you fairly speaking about that Gema?
Even Dr. Klein, MJ’s doc of 25 long yrs. backed him up when the man claimed openly as having been one of Mike’s homosexual lovers, but nooooo, the fans once again did not like what this man had to say at all once again.. <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
Result????
..hmmm what else?
Of Course.
Threatened . ha ha... <!-- s
O.k. already answered this question above.
but..to touch briefly the issue here again, As for Mike being ‘proven” innocent etc. etc.
. Getting an Acquittal, does not mean jack S..T.,.... when it is basically a well known fact, that at times, justice can be bought, or does miscarry and therefore a verdict of “acquittal” is most definitely does not necessarily equal to an automatic total proof of “innocence” of any alleged criminal , as in the alternative also a “guilty’ verdict does not necessarily always proof a measure of total guilt.
As is well known to most of us here, some truly innocent people have been waiting around in death row for yrs and yrs on appeal, waiting to be executed, and lo and behold, by some miracle, they get sprung in the end.
. So pls.keep in mind this could very well be/is the consideration here as well. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Peace. .
MashMike, do you know what these groups' names mean? What does "El pasado OSCURO que Michael Jackson llevó a la TUMBA" mean? I tried to use Google translate but didn't get what it means exactly. When we're reporting those FB groups are we going to choose "targets based on gender and orientation OR sexual explicit content? I would be appreciated if you could help. Thank you.
For the ones who reported the videos and channels, you can report them more than once. Do not give up after you once report them.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."Even if I agree with most of your last post reply to me, since you talk about the core meaning of freedom of speech and rights understanding the term defamation not being biased by emotions, and you gave good examples of it, I still will use my "freedom of speech" based on my and only perception, as it goes for the other side, up to now, I have clear what your position is and you have clear mine <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> "your freedom of speech" stops where "my freedom of speech starts" and HATE should not be used to mascarade "freedom of speech" as those channels are doing. They use hate and defamation.
Regarding Klein´s nephew I must admit that I was shocked with people´s reactions, as if to be gay is a terrible thing to be accused of.
Being gay is not criminal (at least in civilized countries..) but being a pedo is, and Michael, once again, is not.
Thank You! Once again we'd gone WAY off topic.
i report it as an targetsa race or ethnicity
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Thank you so so much hun. I will do the same. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
God bless you Souza. Thank you.