<br />I know Bec said to read the comments and I did but didn't see an answer to my question. Maybe I did miss it, or maybe it's not important, but I wondered if ANYONE ever said they SAW the ambulance GO into Carolwood?<br />Sign lady, fans, paps? <br />Because if they did then if we choose to believe they are not actors, but DID see it go in there that day, it would be helpful in the ambulance theories.<br />If no one around there saw it, then maybe it wasn't GOING INTO Carolwood, maybe it was already there, or maybe it was there another day or on a set. But, if it WAS seen!! Really, ambulances come with sirens ON, so sign lady would've heard it...prob. ran there to see what's up. There are also paps who listen to police band radios, and know Michael's address and would've followed it. NO one saw it GO in there?<br />What about private citizens who listen to police scanners? No one has come forward saying they heard the call into 911??<br />
<br /><br />Nice question Ford. I must have missed your post. Yeah, NEVER heard of someone who saw the ambulance going into Carolwood! BUT wouldn't that create suspicion IF the ambulance was already there and didn't arrive and get into the mansion? I think Michael wanted it all to be as real as it could be. So imo the ambulance arrived on the 25th and it wasn't inside the mansion already. But still very nice thought! And it could be inside already like you said.
<br />Photo of Murray out of the hospital, ..the June 25? <br /><br />And all these people where they are?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />That first image of Murray - I remember watching that video footage of him outside UCLA and it looked totally fake to me. His body was in the exact same position the whole time, he just got a bit bigger as he kept allegedly walking. I realize some security footage just captures stills and puts them together but it didn't look like Murray moved at all. The footage looked doctored (lol) with Murray's one image being moved forward over and over again. I tried finding this footage but I haven't seen it since that day in the trial.<br />
<br /><br />What if Murray used the back door of the hospital and all these people were in front of the hospital and not in the back side of it?
It's possible PureLove although crowds tend to assemble willy-nilly and it is odd that no one can be seen around Murray. But I don't think that footage of him is real anyways because like I said, it looks fake - like they took one image of him and created a video to make it look like he was moving forward. Does anyone have this on youtube? It's always the same leg forward, same body position. It looks like a jilted cartoon character moving.
but if a moderator also thinks that it is off-topic for this thread, there is something about it, don't you think?<br />[...] I talked enough about this fantasy
With no disrespect intended to the moderators: PureLove you asked me what I think. I'll tell you what i think: just because someone is a moderator here, it doesn't make him/her GOD. If bec thinks I was off-topic, it's her opinion, it doesn't mean she's necessarily right just because she's a moderator.<br />But of course, she can interdict me to speak about a subject or another on a topic because she wants it to.<br />Still that doesn't make her right either.<br /><br />The issue here is: it doesn't mater what theory I was talking about , I could have talked about the theory that Barack Obama is Murray in disguise, for instance. Fantasy or not, reality or not, we're discussing here about a huge PROJECT put together by a man who has always based his creations not only on talent and real, tangible things, but mostly on imagination, on fantasy, on magic!<br /><br />If you guys intend to block off anyone who tries to touch subjects that connect to that fanstasy-magical world of Michael, just because you disagree or "you're fed up" then you're blocking us all from understanding HOW his mind works and workED when he created this! With a negative attitude like this you inhibit people's imagination and deductions abilities that could help bring forward possible theories, some of which could prove totally false in the end, but some of them could prove to be true.<br /><br />Because of situations like this ^^ there are many people out there reading the forum and not daring to say a word, because they're afraid to be shut off like I just was!<br />Well , PureLove, I must tell you that it's my turn to be fed up!<br /><br />Sorry for the outburst.<br />I admit NOW I was really OFF-topic!
<br />Snoopy: in your scenario, why do you need a donated body simply for the helicopter scene? Since it was simply a body shape wrapped in a sheet, couldn't this "corpse" simply be a dummy or even a live person playing dead? What's the benefit of using a real corpse for this portion? What's the detriment? A real body may leak bodily fluids. A sheet would not protect surfaces or hands from coming in contact with these fluids. It's messy. What desired benefit of using a real body would be worth risking this mess for hoax purposes? Why bother using a real body for just this portion (as you have outlined)?<br /><br />
<br /><br /><br />I was hoping you'd ask me that. <br /><br />"Dummy vs Cadaver"<br /><br />Dummy Scenario: <br /><br />- Prop dummy was stored at UCLA (Unlikely, where would it be stored? risk of discovery)<br />- Prop dummy stored offsite and brought to UCLA (risk of discovery in transport/raise suspicion)<br />- Prop dummy was stored at Carolwood (possible; could be used as prop if Michael were not present)<br /><br /><br />Let's assume they did use a dummy(replica of Michael)<br /><br />Pros:<br /><br />- Michael would not need to be present for ambulance drama<br />- Could be used for autopsy photos<br />- frame of reference for Dr. Murray, Alvarez, Senneff, Blount<br />- a body to transport to UCLA<br />- frame of reference for UCLA personnel<br />- a body to transport to Coroners office<br /><br />Cons:<br /><br />- acquisition (someone has to create it without raising suspicion) <br />- disposal (where does it go after the coroners office/who gets rid of it/who stores it?)<br />- risk factor (handling a lifesize dummy requires manpower, time and storage)<br /><br /><br />The main logistical problem with using a dummy is STORAGE. (What do you do with the dummy?)<br /><br />The risk factor is higher that the plot would be revealed or raise suspicion upon discovery of a dummy. Disposal and storage methods are time intensive with regards to handling at the Coroners office and require additional personnel.<br /><br /><br /><br />Donated body/Cadaver Scenario:<br /><br />- UCLA is a teaching hospital; bodies/cadavers are routinely donated (no one needed to die that day)<br />- A donated body/cadaver is kept in storage on premises (UCLA personnel would have access)<br />- A donated body/cadaver can be transported between the coroners and the hospital without raising suspicion. <br /><br />The donated body/cadaver scenario offers the least amount of risk in discovery. The body/cadaver could be moved freely throughout the hospital without raising suspicion. <br /><br /><br /> A donated body/cadaver offers two things: <br /><br />1) a body for the media to see being transported (helicopter/van)<br />2) a body that can be returned back to UCLA from the Coroners and be re-stored for use. <br /><br /><br />The reason I favor the Donated body/Cadaver scenario is the limitation of RISK. <br /><br />For the purposes of 911 call/Carolwood, a body was not needed.(dummy or otherwise) <br /><br />Dr. Murray, Alvarez, Senneff, Blount could all have been using Michael himself as the "frame of reference" to enact the scene and then simply strapped him to the gurney and carried him down the stairs into the waiting ambulance (if it was required)---it wouldn't make a difference because the cameras could not see behind the gates.<br /><br />Once at UCLA, the donated body/cadaver scenario went into play. <br /><br />The body was already there, the sequence was carried out for the media (helicopter/van transport) to the Coroners and then the body/cadaver was returned to UCLA from the Coroners. <br /><br />There are no storage issues, no risk of exposure, no raised suspicions. Even with dealing with "potential fluids" from a real body (although an untouched/frozen body could have been used) would far outweight the risks of trying to store/dispose a of dummy.<br /><br /><br />.....it's just logistically the easier scenario in my opinion.<br /><br /><br />...boy does that give new meaning to the word "recycling" <br /><br /><br />....I tried not to make this too "wordy" :roll:
The ambulance pic is fake OK but still, even after reading Souza's post from February 26, I found no evidence it was staged in advance. <br />I understand what TS is saying, like why it HAD to be staged in ADVANCE, still his/hers reasoning is not PROOF.<br />I still believe it could have been fabricated in those couple of hours between the ambulance leaving the residence and the moment the photo was made public. And if it was fabricated during this time, it could have been for money, not for hoax-purposes, so we can't 100% take the fake photo as evidence for the hoax unless it was staged in advance.<br /><br />About the ambulance, I already stated it from the beginning of this thread that I believe it was all real, the ambulance and the fire truck. Real like they belong to LAFD and they arrived there because of the 911 call.<br /><br />About the coroner, I agree there is no way he can not be in the hoax.<br /><br />About the usage of a body or not, I still am not sure because I feel it is important to keep the paramedics and the UCLA docs out of the hoax. Yet, if this was all an FBI operation, there was no need for a dead body ---> paramedics and UCLA docs are in the hoax and not allowed to speak.<br /><br />These are my conclusions so far.<br /><br /><br /><br />
but if a moderator also thinks that it is off-topic for this thread, there is something about it, don't you think?<br />[...] I talked enough about this fantasy
With no disrespect intended to the moderators: PureLove you asked me what I think. I'll tell you what i think: just because someone is a moderator here, it doesn't make him/her GOD. If bec thinks I was off-topic, it's her opinion, it doesn't mean she's necessarily right just because she's a moderator.<br />But of course, she can interdict me to speak about a subject or another on a topic because she wants it to.<br />Still that doesn't make her right either.<br /><br />The issue here is: it doesn't mater what theory I was talking about , I could have talked about the theory that Barack Obama is Murray in disguise, for instance. Fantasy or not, reality or not, we're discussing here about a huge PROJECT put together by a man who has always based his creations not only on talent and real, tangible things, but mostly on imagination, on fantasy, on magic!<br /><br />If you guys intend to block off anyone who tries to touch subjects that connect to that fanstasy-magical world of Michael, just because you disagree or "you're fed up" then you're blocking us all from understanding HOW his mind works and workED when he created this! With a negative attitude like this you inhibit people's imagination and deductions abilities that could help bring forward possible theories, some of which could prove totally false in the end, but some of them could prove to be true.<br /><br />Because of situations like this ^^ there are many people out there reading the forum and not daring to say a word, because they're afraid to be shut off like I just was!<br />Well , PureLove, I must tell you that it's my turn to be fed up!<br /><br />Sorry for the outburst.<br />I admit NOW I was really OFF-topic!<br />
<br /><br />NOBODY is telling you NOT to make posts Simm. NOBODY is telling NOBODY not to make posts. I just offered you to make your posts on a related thread. You are getting things personally and getting mad when there is no need to. If you write "whatever" be it and move on. Do not keep on opening the issue which is useless for this thread.
[size=36pt]CAN WE ALL GROW UP HERE AND HAVE THE CATFIGHTS IN PM?[/size]<br /><br /> bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang<br /><br />Simpattyk, I also think it's off topic. We are discussing here if there was or wasn't an ambulance at Carolwood Drive on June 25th. If you want to discuss the possibility that Murray=MJ, open a new thread please.<br /><br />PureLove, show more respect to other's belief please. Just because YOU are convinced that it's not possible, doesn't give you the right to disrespect others who do think it's a possibility. You could have just explained to Simpattyk why it is off topic, or report it to a moderator. No need to get nasty again.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
<br />Snoopy: in your scenario, why do you need a donated body simply for the helicopter scene? Since it was simply a body shape wrapped in a sheet, couldn't this "corpse" simply be a dummy or even a live person playing dead? What's the benefit of using a real corpse for this portion? What's the detriment? A real body may leak bodily fluids. A sheet would not protect surfaces or hands from coming in contact with these fluids. It's messy. What desired benefit of using a real body would be worth risking this mess for hoax purposes? Why bother using a real body for just this portion (as you have outlined)?<br /><br />
<br /><br /><br />I was hoping you'd ask me that. <br /><br />"Dummy vs Cadaver"<br /><br />Dummy Scenario: <br /><br />- Prop dummy was stored at UCLA (Unlikely, where would it be stored? risk of discovery)<br />- Prop dummy stored offsite and brought to UCLA (risk of discovery in transport/raise suspicion)<br />- Prop dummy was stored at Carolwood (possible; could be used as prop if Michael were not present)<br /><br /><br />Let's assume they did use a dummy(replica of Michael)<br /><br />Pros:<br /><br />- Michael would not need to be present for ambulance drama<br />- Could be used for autopsy photos<br />- frame of reference for Dr. Murray, Alvarez, Senneff, Blount<br />- a body to transport to UCLA<br />- frame of reference for UCLA personnel<br />- a body to transport to Coroners office<br /><br />Cons:<br /><br />- acquisition (someone has to create it without raising suspicion) <br />- disposal (where does it go after the coroners office/who gets rid of it/who stores it?)<br />- risk factor (handling a lifesize dummy requires manpower, time and storage)<br /><br /><br />The main logistical problem with using a dummy is STORAGE. (What do you do with the dummy?)<br /><br />The risk factor is higher that the plot would be revealed or raise suspicion upon discovery of a dummy. Disposal and storage methods are time intensive with regards to handling at the Coroners office and require additional personnel.<br /><br /><br /><br />Donated body/Cadaver Scenario:<br /><br />- UCLA is a teaching hospital; bodies/cadavers are routinely donated (no one needed to die that day)<br />- A donated body/cadaver is kept in storage on premises (UCLA personnel would have access)<br />- A donated body/cadaver can be transported between the coroners and the hospital without raising suspicion. <br /><br />The donated body/cadaver scenario offers the least amount of risk in discovery. The body/cadaver could be moved freely throughout the hospital without raising suspicion. <br /><br /><br /> A donated body/cadaver offers two things: <br /><br />1) a body for the media to see being transported (helicopter/van)<br />2) a body that can be returned back to UCLA from the Coroners and be re-stored <br /><br /><br />The reason I favor the Donated body/Cadaver scenario is the limitation of RISK. <br /><br />For the purposes of 911 call/Carolwood, a body was not needed. <br /><br />Dr. Murray, Alvarez, Senneff, Blount could all have been using Michael himself as the "frame of reference" to enact the scene and then simply strapped him to the gurney and carried him down the stairs into the waiting ambulance.<br /><br />Once at UCLA, the donated body/cadaver scenario went into play. The body was already there, the sequence was carried out for the media (helicopter/van transport) and then the body/cadaver was returned to UCLA from the Coroner at a later date. <br /><br />There are no storage issues, no risk of exposure, no raised suspicions. Even with dealing with "potential fluids" from a real body (although an untouched/frozen body could have been used) would far outweight the risks of trying to store a dummy...it's just logistically the easier scenario in my opinion.<br /><br /><br /><br />...boy does that give new meaning to the word "recycling" <br /><br /><br />....I tried not to make this too "wordy" :roll:<br />
<br /><br />Snoopy, what do you think about the thing I posted about the cadaver getting inside the helicopter as a body shape and getting out different like a surfboard? Why did they change the cadaver in the helicopter?
@Souza<;br /><br />I have respect to every opinion as far as they are not delusional fantasies. What makes it a fantasy? Well, if it was debunked with proofs but if people keep on thinking it is a possibility, that's a fantasy imo. Sorry for being "nasty" but that's the way it is.
<br />@Souza<;br /><br />I have respect to every opinion as far as they are not delusional fantasies. What makes it a fantasy? Well, if it was debunked with proofs but if people keep on thinking it is a possibility, that's a fantasy imo. Sorry for being "nasty" but that's the way it is.<br />
<br /><br />You didn't debunk a thing, you merely stated your opinion which some don't agree with. Stop calling people delusional.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
<br />@Souza<;br /><br />I have respect to every opinion as far as they are not delusional fantasies. What makes it a fantasy? Well, if it was debunked with proofs but if people keep on thinking it is a possibility, that's a fantasy imo. Sorry for being "nasty" but that's the way it is.<br />
<br /><br />You didn't debunk a thing, you merely stated your opinion which some don't agree with. Stop calling people delusional.<br />
<br /><br />Unrealistic fantasies. I used the wrong word. I think I needed to bring a short dude and fake long legs and arms to debunk it but I didn't want to waste my time with that. My words look so worthless to you guys. Of course, who am I to speak on this issue!
<br />There are several theories, there are several possibilities. The question is, how are we going to eliminate the ones which are not possible? How are we going to know which one is not a possibility?
<br /><br />Your question has a good point and gave me a brainstorm. Here is what IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND:<br />if Michael IS DEAD, how family is OK with INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER, GROSS NEGLIGENCE up to 4 years in prison ONLY Bull Shit verdict, whereas they have been shouting since day one that MICHAEL WAS KILLED and CM IS a FALL GUY?<br />Is there going to be or is happening currently investigation to find REAL ASSASSINS? How / WHY family is OK with this verdict and accepts that "JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE". Because to me JASTICE HAS NOT BEEN DONE whatsoever.<br />This said, Michael is dead/killed is NOT possibility for me or family does not care anymore or does not love Michael enough.<br />Is this possible?
<br />There are several theories, there are several possibilities. The question is, how are we going to eliminate the ones which are not possible? How are we going to know which one is not a possibility?
<br /><br />Your question has a good point and gave me a brainstorm. Here is what IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND:<br />if Michael IS DEAD, how family is OK with INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER, GROSS NEGLIGENCE up to 4 years in prison ONLY Bull Shit verdict, whereas they have been shouting since day one that MICHAEL WAS KILLED and CM IS a FALL GUY?<br />Is there going to be or is happening currently investigation to find REAL ASSASSINS? How / WHY family is OK with this verdict and accepts that "JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE". Because to me JASTICE HAS NOT BEEN DONE whatsoever.<br />This said, Michael is dead/killed is NOT possibility for me or family does not care anymore or does not love Michael enough.<br />Is this possible?<br />
<br /><br />Exactly Scorpion. They were screaming around that Murray is just a fall guy but there are people behind this. And after the guilty verdict, the family looks so relieved and they say the justice was served. What about the people behind Murray then? What about the ones who were after this "murder"? They forgot about them all. IF what the family was saying the truth, they wouldn't stop and they wouldn't say Justice was done! They would be saying "This is just the beginning, not the end" kind of things. Michael loves his family and his family loves him too. So, that is not an option. The only explanation is, this is a hoax and Michael is pulling the strings.
NO FIGHTI_NG PLEASE errrr<br />It'a a waste of energy.<br /><br />If you wouldn't be allowed to have sex for 6 weeks you would be entitled to SHOUT.<br />Until then, I want some peace and quiet /white flag/.
<br />[...]<br />If you want to discuss the possibility that Murray=MJ, open a new thread please.<br />[...]<br />
<br />No thank you. I've had it on this forum.<br />This is the second time it happens to me here.<br />I won't be here for the 3rd time!<br /><br />What I learned from the "moderators" of this forum:<br />1. Someone opens a topic about a subject that the admin/moderator doesn't agree with.<br />Decision: shuts it down.<br /><br />2. Someone discusses about a subject that the admin/moderator doesn't agree with, but masks his/her subjectivity under the excuse: "off-topic" and suggests the user to open another topic. Why? to have the same faith as the 1st one ? ^^<br /><br />3. The user is confused and disappointed.<br /><br />4. The user leaves the forum.
<br />There are several theories, there are several possibilities. The question is, how are we going to eliminate the ones which are not possible? How are we going to know which one is not a possibility?
<br /><br />Your question has a good point and gave me a brainstorm. Here is what IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND:<br />if Michael IS DEAD, how family is OK with INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER, GROSS NEGLIGENCE up to 4 years in prison ONLY Bull Shit verdict, whereas they have been shouting since day one that MICHAEL WAS KILLED and CM IS a FALL GUY?<br />Is there going to be or is happening currently investigation to find REAL ASSASSINS? How / WHY family is OK with this verdict and accepts that "JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE". Because to me JASTICE HAS NOT BEEN DONE whatsoever.<br />This said, Michael is dead/killed is NOT possibility for me or family does not care anymore or does not love Michael enough.<br />Is this possible?<br />
<br /><br />Exactly Scorpion. They were screaming around that Murray is just a fall guy but there are people behind this. And after the guilty verdict, the family looks so relieved and they say the justice was served. What about the people behind Murray then? What about the ones who were after this "murder"? They forgot about them all. IF what the family was saying the truth, they wouldn't stop and they wouldn't say Justice was done! They would be saying "This is just the beginning, not the end" kind of things. Michael loves his family and his family loves him too. So, that is not an option. The only explanation is, this is a hoax and Michael is pulling the strings. <br />
<br /><br />In addition, Jermain said "this is it, but this is NOT really it, there is much mcuh more to come.......". To me if Michael is dead then he WAS KILLED, that is, family MUST NOT be OK with this verdict. If they are OK, then Michael IS ALIVE version only would explain this.<br />BUT, on the other hand, IT IS also POSSIBLE if family is OK with this BS verdict, that means Michael does not want to be back at all and family does not want to dig too much to reveal a hoax. In this scenario also the FACT remains to be that Michael SHOUDL BE ALIVE since family "looks satisfied".
<br />There are several theories, there are several possibilities. The question is, how are we going to eliminate the ones which are not possible? How are we going to know which one is not a possibility?
<br /><br />Your question has a good point and gave me a brainstorm. Here is what IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND:<br />if Michael IS DEAD, how family is OK with INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER, GROSS NEGLIGENCE up to 4 years in prison ONLY Bull Shit verdict, whereas they have been shouting since day one that MICHAEL WAS KILLED and CM IS a FALL GUY?<br />Is there going to be or is happening currently investigation to find REAL ASSASSINS? How / WHY family is OK with this verdict and accepts that "JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE". Because to me JASTICE HAS NOT BEEN DONE whatsoever.<br />This said, Michael is dead/killed is NOT possibility for me or family does not care anymore or does not love Michael enough.<br />Is this possible?<br />
<br /><br />Exactly Scorpion. They were screaming around that Murray is just a fall guy but there are people behind this. And after the guilty verdict, the family looks so relieved and they say the justice was served. What about the people behind Murray then? What about the ones who were after this "murder"? They forgot about them all. IF what the family was saying the truth, they wouldn't stop and they wouldn't say Justice was done! They would be saying "This is just the beginning, not the end" kind of things. Michael loves his family and his family loves him too. So, that is not an option. The only explanation is, this is a hoax and Michael is pulling the strings. <br />
<br /><br />In addition, Jermain said "this is it, but this is NOT really it, there is much mcuh more to come.......". To me if Michael is dead then he WAS KILLED, that is, family MUST NOT be OK with this verdict. If they are OK, then Michael IS ALIVE version only would explain this.<br />BUT, on the other hand, IT IS also POSSIBLE if family is OK with this BS verdict, that means Michael does not want to be back at all and family does not want to dig too much to reveal a hoax.[size=14pt] In this scenario also the FACT remains to be that Michael SHOUDL BE ALIVE since family "looks satisfied".[/size]
<br /><br />YES, exactly! I do believe he will be coming back tho. He wants to SHOCK the WORLD! With his "sudden death" he shocked the ones who love him so much. The haters are so happy with his "death". Coming BACK from death will be SHOCKING the ENTIRE world! Everyone, including the haters and evil people! He wants to do the thing that was never ever done before. Michael likes to be the one who creates things and does it for the FIRST time! A fake death with a Resurrection was never ever done before by a big celebrity. Can you imagine what the world would be like when they hear Michael is alive? That is going to be HUGE which fits perfectly with the KING! <br />
<br />[...]<br />If you want to discuss the possibility that Murray=MJ, open a new thread please.<br />[...]<br />
<br />No thank you. I've had it on this forum.<br />This is the second time it happens to me here.<br />I won't be here for the 3rd time!<br /><br />What I learned from the "moderators" of this forum:<br />1. Someone opens a topic about a subject that the admin/moderator doesn't agree with.<br />Decision: shuts it down.<br /><br />2. Someone discusses about a subject that the admin/moderator doesn't agree with, but masks his/her subjectivity under the excuse: "off-topic" and suggests the user to open another topic. Why? to have the same faith as the 1st one ? ^^<br /><br />3. The user is confused and disappointed.<br /><br />4. The user leaves the forum.<br />
<br /><br />Oh of course! Now I was the only one with this opinion. Whatever, leave if you want please. Make sure you close the door please.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
maybe they used a sheet in the helicopter instead of a bodybag , to know for sure nobody can take a quick peak, it takes some time to untie the knot , more time then a zipper, maybe thats the reason they choose for a a knotted sheet. So the dummy is certainly a possibillity imo. and therefor the paramedics who brought the "body/Dummy"to the helicopter they are not in the hoax. And for the UCLA Docs, they didn't gave there statement that Michael "died"Jermaine did that instead of them, so they havent lied, and i think docs are not permitted to speak about there patients,so they can be in the hoax.
[size=12pt]YES! In answer to the question (below) <br /><br />The Star Maps Lady says she saw the ambulance go into Carolwood at "a quarter to 12:00".<br /><br />So how did she see this happen at a quarter to 12:00 IF the ambulance was not even called until 12:21?<br /><br />Link to video - her comment about time of ambulance is around :38<br /><br />http://cnn.com/video/?/video/showbiz/2011/09/28/michael-jackson-star-maps.cnn<br />[/size]<br />
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<br />I know Bec said to read the comments and I did but didn't see an answer to my question. Maybe I did miss it, or maybe it's not important, but I wondered if ANYONE ever said they SAW the ambulance GO into Carolwood?<br />Sign lady, fans, paps? <br />Because if they did then if we choose to believe they are not actors, but DID see it go in there that day, it would be helpful in the ambulance theories.<br />If no one around there saw it, then maybe it wasn't GOING INTO Carolwood, maybe it was already there, or maybe it was there another day or on a set. But, if it WAS seen!! Really, ambulances come with sirens ON, so sign lady would've heard it...prob. ran there to see what's up. There are also paps who listen to police band radios, and know Michael's address and would've followed it. NO one saw it GO in there?<br />What about private citizens who listen to police scanners? No one has come forward saying they heard the call into 911??<br />
<br /><br />Nice question Ford. I must have missed your post. Yeah, NEVER heard of someone who saw the ambulance going into Carolwood! BUT wouldn't that create suspicion IF the ambulance was already there and didn't arrive and get into the mansion? I think Michael wanted it all to be as real as it could be. So imo the ambulance arrived on the 25th and it wasn't inside the mansion already. But still very nice thought! And it could be inside already like you said.<br />
<br />maybe they used a sheet in the helicopter instead of a bodybag , to know for sure nobody can take a quick peak, it takes some time to untie the knot , more time then a zipper, maybe thats the reason they choose for a a knotted sheet. So the dummy is certainly a good possibillity imo. and therefor the paramedics who brought the "body/Dummy"to the helicopter they are not in the hoax. And for the UCLA Docs, they didn't gave there statement that Michael "died"Jermaine did that instead of them, so they havent lied, and i think docs are not permitted to speak about there patients,so they can be in the hoax.<br />
<br /><br />There was a sheet on the body already before they put it inside the helicopter. They never used a bodybag. The question is IF what they brought in was a real corpse, why did they change it and brought a surfboard out of the helicopter? <br /><br />The only explanation comes to my mind is; There was no corpse at all. It was Michael himself or someone else who was alive and they changed and put a surfboard instead of the person. Do we know where the helicopter went after they took off the body? Maybe Michael stayed in it and flew somewhere else with it.<br /><br />
<br />[size=12pt]YES! In answer to the question (below) <br /><br />The Star Maps Lady says she saw the ambulance go into Carolwood at "a quarter to 12:00".<br /><br />So how did she see this happen at a quarter to 12:00 IF the ambulance was not even called until 12:21?<br /><br />Link to video - her comment about time of ambulance is around :38<br /><br />http://cnn.com/video/?/video/showbiz/2011/09/28/michael-jackson-star-maps.cnn<br />[/size]<br />
on 1321216550:
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on 1321215542:
<br />I know Bec said to read the comments and I did but didn't see an answer to my question. Maybe I did miss it, or maybe it's not important, but I wondered if ANYONE ever said they SAW the ambulance GO into Carolwood?<br />Sign lady, fans, paps? <br />Because if they did then if we choose to believe they are not actors, but DID see it go in there that day, it would be helpful in the ambulance theories.<br />If no one around there saw it, then maybe it wasn't GOING INTO Carolwood, maybe it was already there, or maybe it was there another day or on a set. But, if it WAS seen!! Really, ambulances come with sirens ON, so sign lady would've heard it...prob. ran there to see what's up. There are also paps who listen to police band radios, and know Michael's address and would've followed it. NO one saw it GO in there?<br />What about private citizens who listen to police scanners? No one has come forward saying they heard the call into 911??<br />
<br /><br />Nice question Ford. I must have missed your post. Yeah, NEVER heard of someone who saw the ambulance going into Carolwood! BUT wouldn't that create suspicion IF the ambulance was already there and didn't arrive and get into the mansion? I think Michael wanted it all to be as real as it could be. So imo the ambulance arrived on the 25th and it wasn't inside the mansion already. But still very nice thought! And it could be inside already like you said.<br />
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<br /><br />Thank you so so much for this video. I realized something else in the video. The reporter says:<br /><br />[size=12pt]6 months after Jackson moved in and 3 weeks before he started his concert series ..." Look at the numbers! 3 and 6 which is 3 six >>> 6 6 6 Now don't tell me this is not another numerology clue about illuminati.[/size]<br /><br />And yes, she says she saw the ambulance getting in. Probably she just confused the time.
<br /><br /> /bravo/ to both of you. Perfect scenario if you ask me. I agree with all you wrote. BUT we shouldn't forget about the body change inside the helicopter. A normal body shape was brought into the helicopter but a flat surfboard looking thing was brought out of the helicopter. And the security belts was not on the body no more when they were taking it out. IF that was the donated corpse inside the helicopter, why did they change it with a surfboard? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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on 1321222685:
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on 1321221928:
<br />maybe they used a sheet in the helicopter instead of a bodybag , to know for sure nobody can take a quick peak, it takes some time to untie the knot , more time then a zipper, maybe thats the reason they choose for a a knotted sheet. So the dummy is certainly a good possibillity imo. and therefor the paramedics who brought the "body/Dummy"to the helicopter they are not in the hoax. And for the UCLA Docs, they didn't gave there statement that Michael "died"Jermaine did that instead of them, so they havent lied, and i think docs are not permitted to speak about there patients,so they can be in the hoax.<br />
<br /><br />There was a sheet on the body already before they put it inside the helicopter. They never used a bodybag. The question is IF what they brought in was a real corpse, why did they change it and brought a surfboard out of the helicopter? <br /><br />The only explanation comes to my mind is; There was no corpse at all. It was Michael himself or someone else who was alive and they changed and put a surfboard instead of the person. Do we know where the helicopter went after they took off the body? Maybe Michael stayed in it and flew somewhere else with it.<br /><br /><br />
<br /><br /><br /><br />It's not flat<br /><br />First let me start by saying what I've said in my last 3 or 4 posts....<br /><br />Video / Pictures can be manipulated!<br /><br />[size=14pt]A still picture taken at various angles will yield different depth dimensions. <br /><br /> It's an optical illusion.[/size] :shock:<br /><br /><br />I think this is simply an instance like the ambulance video at Carolwood where in this case, the still pictures are being misconstrued as two seperate entities.<br /><br /><br /><br />Inside the helicopter there is already an empty gurney (as seen in the still picture) (ignore this!) This is standard equipment on a rescue helicopter and is confusing.<br /><br /><br /> /><br /><br />If you watch the video (the continuous uncut version), the body is unstrapped while still in the helicopter and then the body is transported to the waiting coroners gurney. Starts at (4:52). <br /><br />The body appears to be flat because the straps are not outlining the indentation of the body anymore and the sheet has been re-adjusted over the top. You can still see the outline of the feet wrapped in the sheet. <br /><br /><br />A still photo from the side angle you see shape, but from overhead it appears flat. <br /><br />The still pictures give the impression that there is no body when there is. :roll:<br /><br /><br /><br />I think this same trick was also utilized in the autopsy photo. When a picture is shot from overhead (more vertical presentation) objects appear more inanimate/two dimensional/lifeless.<br /><br />I hoped that helped...not sure if that was the conclusion on the threads debunking it. :?
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"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."