<br />maybe they used a sheet in the helicopter instead of a bodybag , to know for sure nobody can take a quick peak, it takes some time to untie the knot , more time then a zipper, maybe thats the reason they choose for a a knotted sheet. So the dummy is certainly a good possibillity imo. and therefor the paramedics who brought the "body/Dummy"to the helicopter they are not in the hoax. And for the UCLA Docs, they didn't gave there statement that Michael "died"Jermaine did that instead of them, so they havent lied, and i think docs are not permitted to speak about there patients,so they can be in the hoax.<br />
<br /><br />Yes i know that Pure, that the sheet was there before the Helicopter already, but the dummy could be used before that tho? ( from the UCLA to the "coroner") they could have storaged the dummy at a locked or sealed closet or a room there noone permitted to go.<br /><br />Love Always<br /><br />There was a sheet on the body already before they put it inside the helicopter. They never used a bodybag. The question is IF what they brought in was a real corpse, why did they change it and brought a surfboard out of the helicopter? <br /><br />The only explanation comes to my mind is; There was no corpse at all. It was Michael himself or someone else who was alive and they changed and put a surfboard instead of the person. Do we know where the helicopter went after they took off the body? Maybe Michael stayed in it and flew somewhere else with it.<br />
<br /><br /> /bravo/ to both of you. Perfect scenario if you ask me. I agree with all you wrote. BUT we shouldn't forget about the body change inside the helicopter. A normal body shape was brought into the helicopter but a flat surfboard looking thing was brought out of the helicopter. And the security belts was not on the body no more when they were taking it out. IF that was the donated corpse inside the helicopter, why did they change it with a surfboard? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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<br />maybe they used a sheet in the helicopter instead of a bodybag , to know for sure nobody can take a quick peak, it takes some time to untie the knot , more time then a zipper, maybe thats the reason they choose for a a knotted sheet. So the dummy is certainly a good possibillity imo. and therefor the paramedics who brought the "body/Dummy"to the helicopter they are not in the hoax. And for the UCLA Docs, they didn't gave there statement that Michael "died"Jermaine did that instead of them, so they havent lied, and i think docs are not permitted to speak about there patients,so they can be in the hoax.<br />
<br /><br />There was a sheet on the body already before they put it inside the helicopter. They never used a bodybag. The question is IF what they brought in was a real corpse, why did they change it and brought a surfboard out of the helicopter? <br /><br />The only explanation comes to my mind is; There was no corpse at all. It was Michael himself or someone else who was alive and they changed and put a surfboard instead of the person. Do we know where the helicopter went after they took off the body? Maybe Michael stayed in it and flew somewhere else with it.<br /><br /><br />
<br /><br /><br /><br />It's not flat<br /><br />First let me start by saying what I've said in my last 3 or 4 posts....<br /><br />Video / Pictures can be manipulated!<br /><br />[size=14pt]A still picture taken at various angles will yield different depth dimensions. <br /><br /> It's an optical illusion.[/size] :shock:<br /><br /><br />I think this is simply an instance like the ambulance video at Carolwood where in this case, the still pictures are being misconstrued as two seperate entities.<br /><br /><br /><br />Inside the helicopter there is already an empty gurney (as seen in the still picture) (ignore this!) This is standard equipment on a rescue helicopter and is confusing.<br /><br /><br /> /><br /><br />If you watch the video (the continuous uncut version), the body is unstrapped while still in the helicopter and then the body is transported to the waiting coroners gurney. Starts at (4:52). <br /><br />The body appears to be flat because the straps are not outlining the indentation of the body anymore and the sheet has been re-adjusted over the top. You can still see the outline of the feet wrapped in the sheet. <br /><br /><br />A still photo from the side angle you see shape, but from overhead it appears flat. <br /><br />The still pictures give the impression that there is no body when there is. :roll:<br /><br /><br /><br />I think this same trick was also utilized in the autopsy photo. When a picture is shot from overhead (more vertical presentation) objects appear more inanimate/two dimensional/lifeless.<br /><br />I hoped that helped...not sure if that was the conclusion on the threads debunking it. :?<br />
<br /><br />I have to disagree that the body shape looks totally different to me before it was loaded into the helicopter and after it was taken down. There was a video of them loading the body and taking it out of the helicopter, so we're not talking about still pictures here. And also remember the footage where the body moved inside the helicopter? Sorry I don't have the link to the video.
I know this is bringing up old stuff but.....<br /><br />If an ambulance really went to Carolwood Drive on Thursday 25th June 2009...how does this fit in with ALL those garbage bins lining the street outside the house which we see in the various videos posted on this thread from Hollywood TV/Ben E./Tour Bus ?<br /><br />Wasn't it discovered long ago that garbage was collected on Wednesday's in this area?<br /><br />
<br />Photo of Murray out of the hospital, ..the June 25? <br /><br />And all these people where they are?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />That first image of Murray - I remember watching that video footage of him outside UCLA and it looked totally fake to me. His body was in the exact same position the whole time, he just got a bit bigger as he kept allegedly walking. I realize some security footage just captures stills and puts them together but it didn't look like Murray moved at all. The footage looked doctored (lol) with Murray's one image being moved forward over and over again. I tried finding this footage but I haven't seen it since that day in the trial.<br />
<br /><br />What if Murray used the back door of the hospital and all these people were in front of the hospital and not in the back side of it?<br />
<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />That day there were lots of people at the hospital, any person could this video of Murray out of the hospital is another day not the day June 25
<br />Snoopy: in your scenario, why do you need a donated body simply for the helicopter scene? Since it was simply a body shape wrapped in a sheet, couldn't this "corpse" simply be a dummy or even a live person playing dead? What's the benefit of using a real corpse for this portion? What's the detriment? A real body may leak bodily fluids. A sheet would not protect surfaces or hands from coming in contact with these fluids. It's messy. What desired benefit of using a real body would be worth risking this mess for hoax purposes? Why bother using a real body for just this portion (as you have outlined)?<br /><br />@Grace: I don't think 28 months of investigation is "rushing" to believe at all. On the contrary, I think this is a very methodical and organized rational approach to believing. <br /><br />@Souza, thanks for reposting those stills of the red car and thereby re-proving that the ambulance pic was staged, for all those who missed that.<br /><br />Again, please, @anyone who wants to participate in the conversation, go back and read all the previous levels so we can move forward as a team, and not be distracted and held back by those unfamiliar with the information.<br /><br />Also, please stay on topic as much as possible. SimPattyK, as fun as your montages are, the one you posted on Murray/Michael is very off topic and due to the size of the file, quite distracting to the conversation, requiring significant scrolling to get past it. Please refrain from posting your montages here unless they are on topic.<br /><br />Unless anyone else wants to weigh in, I feel as though we have collectively settled on the most logical chain of events on 6/25/09 @Carrolwood is that one ambulance arrived, and then departed en-route to UCLA in live time as was depicted on the video taken by Ben's crew. All popular alternative ambulance theories offered here have been successfully and unequivocally debunked. <br /><br />If you disagree with my statement, please, weigh in and be heard, so we can continuing making progress.<br />
<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />In truth using a corpse was much risk, simply because human beings are curious by nature, and was not 'any dead " was MJ, ..and at the hospital, the helicopter or at the forensic at any given could occur lift the savannah to look at.
Adi, good point I do remember that; now I'm not so sure about our theory lol. Anyone?<br /><br /> As for what we know already, it does seem we have collectively come up with the most plausible theory that includes three basic things that were asked of us: simplicity, necessity and logic. So, I agree with Bec, Souza and Andrea aswell as other's.<br /><br /> As for the ambulance not being seen going in, I would find that more suspicious if it was on camera, just because it would mean a camera man was waiting for the arrival indicating advanced knowledge of the situation. Many celebs have had emergency situation's and by the time the media frenzy arrives, the ambulance etc., is already there.<br />I also don't think it matter's whether or not the ambulance was MJ's because it doesn't make a difference regarding the day(s) everything happened. As Gina stated, it doesn't seem necessary to use his own ambulance given the fact that LAFD was in on it, so why not use the real thing?<br /><br /> The "body" was most likely a dummy or MJ himself; I'm not sure why a real corpse would be needed yet. I also don't think we have enough info on what, if anything, went into the ambulance that day. <br />
<br />Adi, good point I do remember that; now I'm not so sure about our theory lol. Anyone?<br /><br /> As for what we know already, it does seem we have collectively come up with the most plausible theory that includes three basic things that were asked of us: simplicity, necessity and logic. So, I agree with Bec, Souza and Andrea aswell as other's.<br />Some people are making things way more complicated than need be, BUT with the point that Adi made, that theory would change. Unless ofcourse, for whatever reason they didn't collect the garbage can's? We need to verify that information before we can move on.<br /><br /> As for the ambulance not being seen going in, I would find that more suspicious if it was on camera, just because it would mean a camera man was waiting for the arrival indicating advanced knowledge of the situation. Many celebs have had emergency situation's and by the time the media frenzy arrives, the ambulance etc., is already there.<br />I also don't think it matter's whether or not the ambulance was MJ's because it doesn't make a difference regarding the day(s) everything happened. As Gina stated, it doesn't seem necessary to use his own ambulance given the fact that LAFD was in on it, so why not use the real thing?<br /><br /> The "body" was most likely a dummy or MJ himself; I'm not sure why a real corpse would be needed. I also don't think we have enough info on what, if anything, went into the ambulance that day. <br />Remember though, the dummy would just be a prop for media display (helicopter ride etc.), and ofcourse the autopsy isn't real nor is the "we worked on (a dummy) for 2hrs"; if in fact, it was a dummy.<br /><br />
<br /><br />Thanks. It was a point I remembered whilst reading everyone's posts here today.<br /><br />It could be as simple an explanation like MJ purposely wanted the garbage bins left out on the street on 25th June to either:<br /><br />1. make a subliminal message that what we were witnessing was all garbage<br /><br />2. confuse us hoaxers later on lol<br /><br />or<br /><br />it was actually filmed another day....... I can't help but keep thinking of why was the date of the wrapping of filming the Dome Project of June 9th purposely brought to our attention by the Jury putting the wrong "death" date on their Forms which Judge Pastor read out on Verdict day? <br /><br />I know 9 June 2009 is 3 months before 9/9/9 and all the relevant numerology, but was there another reason for 9 June being raised....why did they "mistakenly" put THE date when the Dome project finished?..why not 1 June or 23rd June or any other date???? ......<br /><br />Sorry - I am thinking out loud here and typing as I think. I have to think about this more
<br />I have to disagree that the body shape looks totally different to me before it was loaded into the helicopter and after it was taken down. There was a video of them loading the body and taking it out of the helicopter, so we're not talking about still pictures here. And also remember the footage where the body moved inside the helicopter? Sorry I don't have the link to the video. <br />
<br /><br />The body shifted in the helicopter because the straps were removed. A body firmly strapped to a gurney would not be able to move/roll ----> therefore the straps were being removed/adjusted (which created the "movement")<br /><br /><br /><br />Okay, let me approach this from another angle... :?<br /><br />What is it that is really weird about this whole helicopter scenario? The white sheets right?!<br /><br />Also one minute there appears to be a body, then the next there doesn't (flat board).<br /><br />I think we ALL agree, there is a body going into the helicopter yes? :shock:<br /><br />We've discussed this numerous times, Why wasn't Michael put into a body bag if he was really dead?<br /><br />[size=12pt]Why the white sheets?....the autopsy picture![/size] <br /><br />The body in the autopsy picture is wrapped in white sheets. <br /><br />The two events had to match visually to be believed it happend the same day; the helicopter transport and the autopsy picture.<br /><br /><br /><br />.....Back to the flat coroners gurney...Can anyone answer me this...<br /><br />Why go through the motions of air lifting a body, if they weren't going to follow through to completion? <br />(The news copters were filming live, why would they risk not putting a body onto the Coroner gurney?)<br /><br />If the body was a dummy, cadaver, inflatible doll, or even Michael himself "playing dead", why wouldn't they put him(it) in the van?<br /><br />Why would the body transport stop at the helicopter and not continue onto the van? :?<br /><br />There is only ONE explanation I could come up with for this... Michael was "played dead" being loaded onto the helicopter and stayed hidden on the helicopter and was taken to the airport after, any other reason wouldn't make any sense.<br /><br /><br />....Personally, I don't believe this scenario, but if there is another way to explain your "flat board" theory I'm all ears. [size=12pt]I still believe a body went on that van.[/size]
@Adi True, it could be a subliminal message considering the garbage can theme throughout this hoax; i.e. at the funeral, hearing, trial and also the mention of "trash" and "garbage science" by Walgren in court, with the garbage can in the background filling up by the end of the same day.<br /> <br />Or as you said, the Dome Project could have been this scenario, I just find it becomes much more complicated.<br /><br />@Snoopy, given the date on the autopsy photo, if Michael did make the trip "playing dead" that day, then the reference to the 'coroner van' video is that it was real. Probably filmed and released on purpose to make people question. I dont know if anyone noticed, whilst watching the coroner van driving into the garage that day, there was someone dressed in black that runs in right after; as if they were waiting to capture that moment. Basically, probably the same person who filmed it, and the date on the autopsy pic is confirming Michael did indeed take the trip that day to the coroner's office and jump out of the van.<br /><br />
<br />Adi, good point I do remember that; now I'm not so sure about our theory lol. Anyone?<br /><br /> As for what we know already, it does seem we have collectively come up with the most plausible theory that includes three basic things that were asked of us: simplicity, necessity and logic. So, I agree with Bec, Souza and Andrea aswell as other's.<br />Some people are making things way more complicated than need be, BUT with the point that Adi made, that theory would change. Unless ofcourse, for whatever reason they didn't collect the garbage can's? We need to verify that information before we can move on.<br /><br /> As for the ambulance not being seen going in, I would find that more suspicious if it was on camera, just because it would mean a camera man was waiting for the arrival indicating advanced knowledge of the situation. Many celebs have had emergency situation's and by the time the media frenzy arrives, the ambulance etc., is already there.<br />I also don't think it matter's whether or not the ambulance was MJ's because it doesn't make a difference regarding the day(s) everything happened. As Gina stated, it doesn't seem necessary to use his own ambulance given the fact that LAFD was in on it, so why not use the real thing?<br /><br /> The "body" was most likely a dummy or MJ himself; I'm not sure why a real corpse would be needed. I also don't think we have enough info on what, if anything, went into the ambulance that day. <br />Remember though, the dummy would just be a prop for media display (helicopter ride etc.), and ofcourse the autopsy isn't real nor is the "we worked on (a dummy) for 2hrs"; if in fact, it was a dummy.<br /><br />
<br /><br />But your forgetting about the Lady from Star Maps..she is camped outside of MJ's entrance everyday..She saw the ambulance arrive..........BUT, she claims it arrived at 11:45 am !!! There is a topic on this already started, and then we have all the people on the starline tour bus....These people cant all be lying about what they saw....<br /><br />Linda claims she had a photographer friend there, while she was waiting to see what happenned....this is the link....<br /><br />http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xldcoo_jackson-s-spot-on-hollywood-s-map_lifestyle
Which is why I think it did happen that day, rather than another. All of those random people can't be in on it. Maybe it arrived earlier, but they waited to make everything happen later to fit the numerology. <br /> Either way, I think there is one coherent theory here and if not, TS can intervene lol.
:shock: Oh Holy $@&;%! <br /><br />Okay...I need to see if anyone else sees this....check the video @ 4:40.<br /><br />The deputy inside the van lifts something....is that what I think it is?????<br /><br /><br /> /><br />
About the garbage cans outside of Carolwood - they were planted there, hoax props if you will.<br /><br />No street in Beverly Hills has their garbage out front, it's too hoity-toity for that. You will literally not see any garage cans out front of any Beverly Hills address, they get picked up in the back. I knew that before but it was also confirmed for me when I took the TMZ bus tour back in June.
<br />Snoopy - it looks like the guy picked up the "body" with one hand...<br />
<br /><br />Okay, so I wasn't imagining it! :shock:<br />
<br /><br />He did it with relative ease too...<br />
<br /><br /><br />The round part looked like a head right?....it was so stiff...but light weight....OMG, I think we might have the body question answered. /woohoo/<br />
@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.<br /><br />@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up? <br /> There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
<br />@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.<br /><br />@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up? <br /> There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.<br />
<br /><br />Oh yeah Definitely!<br /><br /> I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?<br /><br />What could it be? It was bundled very tight....<br /><br />Alrighty....<br /><br />The body:<br /><br />Michael's real dead body<br />Donated body/Cadaver <br />Michael "playing dead"<br />Dummy/Manneguin? :?<br /><br /><br />Or was the helicopter/van transport a diversion? :roll: <br /><br />.....back to the beginning typing/
<br />@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.<br /><br />@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up? <br /> There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.<br />
<br /><br />Oh yeah Definitely!<br /><br /> I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?<br />
<br /><br />I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...
<br />@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.<br /><br />@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up? <br /> There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.<br />
<br /><br />Oh yeah Definitely!<br /><br /> I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?<br />
<br /><br />I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...<br />
<br /><br /><br />Not to sound funny....but it almost looks like one of those blowup dolls wrapped in sheets. I would say maybe a CPR doll, but even those have a little weight to them....<br /><br />....what's really disturbing is they are handling it like a piece of meat! :shock:
<br />@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.<br /><br />@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up? <br /> There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.<br />
<br /><br />Oh yeah Definitely!<br /><br /> I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?<br />
<br /><br />I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...<br />
What the heck,that most definitely was a dummy.Either that or a stiff corpse.U cant lift a 130 something lb man with one arm,no freaking way .Hell u cant lift a 40lb dog with one arm.Dummy,no doubt.U guys r great with ur detective skills.
<br />Good eye Snoopy! Unbelieveable! Good Find!<br />
<br /><br />It wasn't cause of me....pure dumb luck! <br /><br />I was looking at it trying to help PureLove figure out the "flat gurney" issue. <br /><br />I just happened to glance up at the exact moment and saw that.
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