<br />Why not take a police car then?<br /><br />Or hop in the fire truck after everyone raced off after the ambulance?<br /><br />Or one of those undercover police and government cars that are souped up Impalas or Mustangs with the stealth (interior) lights on it. They have right of way too and would attract much less attention then a big box ambulance. Every time the gates opened, they risk one of the "extras" witnessing 2 ambulances inside the gate, then everyone would know there were two departures to watch for. It's hard not to notice an ambulance. They are designed to attract attention for high visibility on the roadway. On the other hand, those undercover police and government cars are inconspicuous and still have emergency lights to stop traffic and move as an emergency vehicle on the road. One could easily be parked in the back garage (that has been depicted in pics on the net since the back gate was discovered in 2009), waiting for MJ to hop in and zip off, undercover of massive ambulance backing out the gate distraction. <br /><br />Why do it the hardest way possible when there's such an easy alternative?<br />
<br /><br />I understand what you are trying to say, you make sense, but those types of police cars do not have tinted windows, anyone could see inside.. Unless they would put Michael in the trunk lol...I guess with the ambulance he is in the back and no one can see inside the ambulance.. More protection.. Is there anything easy in this hoax dear Bec? Nope.. My brains are fried lately.. lol...
Besides, there's no need for 2 ambulances. The 2 ambulances theories were not developed to satisfy a hoax requirement, they were developed solely as an explanation for what it appears to show on the video. It appears that at the end of Ben's video, after the cameraman goes running back toward the tour bus, presumably to his parked car, that the picture suddenly smooths out, we see the Fireman placing cones, and the gate closes after we catch a glimpse of an ambulance inside just before the tape cuts. The splice gives it the illusion of 2 takes; as if someone called "cut!" and they were setting up for take 2 when the video ends. <br /><br />This question was answered by noticing that the end :03 or so is actually the beginning of the video, somehow and for some reason, edited in at the end instead. It is not 2 ambulances on Ben's video, it is a video edited out of chronological order. Why this was done, I don't think was ever answered. But it may be the reason is for what we are doing right now.<br /><br />So you have to ask, what's the purpose of 2 ambulances? Is it necessary to have 2? Is it the best way to satisfy the agenda (or would an undercover govt car a better choice)? Is it beneficial? And so therefore, does it make sense that there are 2 ambulances?<br /><br />I don't think it's necessary to have 2, even for the escape theory. I also don't think we have any physical evidence to support the presence of 2 ambulances, nor any benefit to having 2.
<br />Why not take a police car then?<br /><br />Or hop in the fire truck after everyone raced off after the ambulance?<br /><br />Or one of those undercover police and government cars that are souped up Impalas or Mustangs with the stealth (interior) lights on it. They have right of way too and would attract much less attention then a big box ambulance. Every time the gates opened, they risk one of the "extras" witnessing 2 ambulances inside the gate, then everyone would know there were two departures to watch for. It's hard not to notice an ambulance. They are designed to attract attention for high visibility on the roadway. On the other hand, those undercover police and government cars are inconspicuous and still have emergency lights to stop traffic and move as an emergency vehicle on the road. One could easily be parked in the back garage (that has been depicted in pics on the net since the back gate was discovered in 2009), waiting for MJ to hop in and zip off, undercover of massive ambulance backing out the gate distraction. <br /><br />Why do it the hardest way possible when there's such an easy alternative?<br />
<br /><br />I understand what you are trying to say, you make sense, but those types of police cars do not have tinted windows, anyone could see inside.. Unless they would put Michael in the trunk lol...I guess with the ambulance he is in the back and no one can see inside the ambulance.. More protection.. Is there anything easy in this hoax dear Bec? Nope.. My brains are fried lately.. lol... <br />
<br /><br />????????????????<br /><br />That type has ALL the windows tinted. I'm thinking the super stealth speed trap cop cars on the freeways in the US. Plain black or blue mustangs or impalas with super window tint that sit and wait in nondescript roadside places and leap out at you when you go 110 down the interstate on your way home at night. They're not uncommon and they're perfect for the job.
<br />Besides, there's no need for 2 ambulances. The 2 ambulances theories were not developed to satisfy a hoax requirement, they were developed solely as an explanation for what it appears to show on the video. It appears that at the end of Ben's video, after the cameraman goes running back toward the tour bus, presumably to his parked car, that the picture suddenly smooths out, we see the Fireman placing cones, and the gate closes after we catch a glimpse of an ambulance inside just before the tape cuts. The splice gives it the illusion of 2 takes; as if someone called "cut!" and they were setting up for take 2 when the video ends. <br /><br />This question was answered by noticing that the end :03 or so is actually the beginning of the video, somehow and for some reason, edited in at the end instead. It is not 2 ambulances on Ben's video, it is a video edited out of chronological order. Why this was done, I don't think was ever answered. But it may be the reason is for what we are doing right now.<br /><br />So you have to ask, what's the purpose of 2 ambulances? Is it necessary to have 2? Is it the best way to satisfy the agenda (or would an undercover govt car a better choice)? Is it beneficial? And so therefore, does it make sense that there are 2 ambulances?<br /><br />I don't think it's necessary to have 2, even for the escape theory. I also don't think we have any physical evidence to support the presence of 2 ambulances, nor any benefit to having 2.<br />
<br /><br />Bec I have asked this question several times. When the ambulance backs up very slowly, when it leaves, inside the gates more into the court yard there was another ambulance.. If we can see the number on that ambulance it will answer our question. I tried to zoom in but couldn't see much. If someone has an application that can see clearly that could answer our puzzled question. I honestly think there could have been 2 ambulances. Anything is possible with Michael.. You said the magic word it gives the illusion. I just resaw the video, when the ambulance left the fire truck was there, then we saw again the ambulance in the court yard, and the tour truck came by and the firetruck was still there. I will see if any of my friends have special applications so we can see the other ambulance. Bec I will rack my brains more tomorrow, right now I cannot think straight.
I'm sorry, I have a lot of thoughts on these subjects and I'm just on a roll. <br /><br />I think this is technically off topic but I have trouble with the decoy escape theory in general. If Michael wanted to flee Carrolwood that day he should have left before 12:21 and everything started. Or, conversely, he would be smartest to wait until the Ambulance left and everyone departed, and the world thought he was at UCLA fighting for his life to leave Carrolwood. What would force him to have to leave Carrolwood simultaneously with the ambulance? Even if he was in fear for his life and running from an organized attempt to murder him, 5 minutes behind the ambulance's departure would have tremendously increased his chances of going undetected so why wouldn't he do that?
<br />Why not take a police car then?<br /><br />Or hop in the fire truck after everyone raced off after the ambulance?<br /><br />Or one of those undercover police and government cars that are souped up Impalas or Mustangs with the stealth (interior) lights on it. They have right of way too and would attract much less attention then a big box ambulance. Every time the gates opened, they risk one of the "extras" witnessing 2 ambulances inside the gate, then everyone would know there were two departures to watch for. It's hard not to notice an ambulance. They are designed to attract attention for high visibility on the roadway. On the other hand, those undercover police and government cars are inconspicuous and still have emergency lights to stop traffic and move as an emergency vehicle on the road. One could easily be parked in the back garage (that has been depicted in pics on the net since the back gate was discovered in 2009), waiting for MJ to hop in and zip off, undercover of massive ambulance backing out the gate distraction. <br /><br />Why do it the hardest way possible when there's such an easy alternative?<br />
<br /><br />I understand what you are trying to say, you make sense, but those types of police cars do not have tinted windows, anyone could see inside.. Unless they would put Michael in the trunk lol...I guess with the ambulance he is in the back and no one can see inside the ambulance.. More protection.. Is there anything easy in this hoax dear Bec? Nope.. My brains are fried lately.. lol... <br />
<br /><br />????????????????<br /><br />That type has ALL the windows tinted. I'm thinking the super stealth speed trap cop cars on the freeways in the US. Plain black or blue mustangs or impalas with super window tint that sit and wait in nondescript roadside places and leap out at you when you go 110 down the interstate on your way home at night. They're not uncommon and they're perfect for the job.<br />
<br /><br />I am not from the US. In Canada those types of cop cars do not have tinted windows.. So I am basing myself in my country
<br />Besides, there's no need for 2 ambulances. The 2 ambulances theories were not developed to satisfy a hoax requirement, they were developed solely as an explanation for what it appears to show on the video. It appears that at the end of Ben's video, after the cameraman goes running back toward the tour bus, presumably to his parked car, that the picture suddenly smooths out, we see the Fireman placing cones, and the gate closes after we catch a glimpse of an ambulance inside just before the tape cuts. The splice gives it the illusion of 2 takes; as if someone called "cut!" and they were setting up for take 2 when the video ends. <br /><br />This question was answered by noticing that the end :03 or so is actually the beginning of the video, somehow and for some reason, edited in at the end instead. It is not 2 ambulances on Ben's video, it is a video edited out of chronological order. Why this was done, I don't think was ever answered. But it may be the reason is for what we are doing right now.<br /><br />So you have to ask, what's the purpose of 2 ambulances? Is it necessary to have 2? Is it the best way to satisfy the agenda (or would an undercover govt car a better choice)? Is it beneficial? And so therefore, does it make sense that there are 2 ambulances?<br /><br />I don't think it's necessary to have 2, even for the escape theory. I also don't think we have any physical evidence to support the presence of 2 ambulances, nor any benefit to having 2.<br />
<br /><br />Bec I have asked this question several times. When the ambulance backs up very slowly, when it leaves, inside the gates more into the court yard there was another ambulance.. If we can see the number on that ambulance it will answer our question. I tried to zoom in but couldn't see much. If someone has an application that can see clearly that could answer our puzzled question. I honestly think there could have been 2 ambulances. Anything is possible with Michael.. You said the magic word it gives the illusion. I just resaw the video, when the ambulance left the fire truck was there, then we saw again the ambulance in the court yard, and the tour truck came by and the firetruck was still there. I will see if any of my friends have special applications so we can see the other ambulance. Bec I will rack my brains more tomorrow, right now I cannot think straight. <br />
<br /><br />That's the beginning of the footage edited into the end All4love.<br /><br />Ps. yes, anything is possible, but the task at hand is to make sense of it. What's the purpose of 2 ambulances? Is it necessary to have 2? Is it the best way to satisfy the agenda (or would an undercover govt car a better choice)? Is it beneficial? And so therefore, does it make sense that there are 2 ambulances?<br /><br />Does the decoy escape theory itself even make sense? Why would MJ need to leave Carrolwood at the same exact time as the other ambulance left and why would he need to leave in an ambulance? A lot of things are possible in this world and in this hoax, but we are trying to figure out the truth in a very linear, organized way by rejecting parallel theories that are unnecessarily complex or risky. I believe this theory to be both of those things.
<br />I'm sorry, I have a lot of thoughts on these subjects and I'm just on a roll. <br /><br />I think this is technically off topic but I have trouble with the decoy escape theory in general. If Michael wanted to flee Carrolwood that day he should have left before 12:21 and everything started. Or, conversely, he would be smartest to wait until the Ambulance left and everyone departed, and the world thought he was at UCLA fighting for his life to leave Carrolwood. What would force him to have to leave Carrolwood simultaneously with the ambulance? Even if he was in fear for his life and running from an organized attempt to murder him, 5 minutes behind the ambulance's departure would have tremendously increased his chances of going undetected so why wouldn't he do that?<br />
<br /><br />I have thought the same as you did.. Don't forget this is Michael we are talking about, he kind of loved living on the edge too. So this could have been a challenge for him to see if he could have gotten away with it. Right now like I said it is just sheer specualtions. Why did Michael faked his death? Why did he fake his death in June 25 and not May 25.. These are all hypothetical questions that is extremely hard to get right now. We can speculate as much as we want, all our ideas combined makes sense. All the theories of other members makes sense too. Michael is an intelligent man who is making us going crazy to find out how he made this illusion.
<br />Besides, there's no need for 2 ambulances. The 2 ambulances theories were not developed to satisfy a hoax requirement, they were developed solely as an explanation for what it appears to show on the video. It appears that at the end of Ben's video, after the cameraman goes running back toward the tour bus, presumably to his parked car, that the picture suddenly smooths out, we see the Fireman placing cones, and the gate closes after we catch a glimpse of an ambulance inside just before the tape cuts. The splice gives it the illusion of 2 takes; as if someone called "cut!" and they were setting up for take 2 when the video ends. <br /><br />This question was answered by noticing that the end :03 or so is actually the beginning of the video, somehow and for some reason, edited in at the end instead. It is not 2 ambulances on Ben's video, it is a video edited out of chronological order. Why this was done, I don't think was ever answered. But it may be the reason is for what we are doing right now.<br /><br />So you have to ask, what's the purpose of 2 ambulances? Is it necessary to have 2? Is it the best way to satisfy the agenda (or would an undercover govt car a better choice)? Is it beneficial? And so therefore, does it make sense that there are 2 ambulances?<br /><br />I don't think it's necessary to have 2, even for the escape theory. I also don't think we have any physical evidence to support the presence of 2 ambulances, nor any benefit to having 2.<br />
<br /><br />Bec I have asked this question several times. When the ambulance backs up very slowly, when it leaves, inside the gates more into the court yard there was another ambulance.. If we can see the number on that ambulance it will answer our question. I tried to zoom in but couldn't see much. If someone has an application that can see clearly that could answer our puzzled question. I honestly think there could have been 2 ambulances. Anything is possible with Michael.. You said the magic word it gives the illusion. I just resaw the video, when the ambulance left the fire truck was there, then we saw again the ambulance in the court yard, and the tour truck came by and the firetruck was still there. I will see if any of my friends have special applications so we can see the other ambulance. Bec I will rack my brains more tomorrow, right now I cannot think straight. <br />
<br /><br />That's the beginning of the footage edited into the end All4love.<br />
<br /><br /> I saw that. What purpose did they edited this footage into the end? There has to be a purpose. Is it to throw us off track?
<br />I'm sorry, I have a lot of thoughts on these subjects and I'm just on a roll. <br /><br />I think this is technically off topic but I have trouble with the decoy escape theory in general. If Michael wanted to flee Carrolwood that day he should have left before 12:21 and everything started. Or, conversely, he would be smartest to wait until the Ambulance left and everyone departed, and the world thought he was at UCLA fighting for his life to leave Carrolwood. What would force him to have to leave Carrolwood simultaneously with the ambulance? Even if he was in fear for his life and running from an organized attempt to murder him, 5 minutes behind the ambulance's departure would have tremendously increased his chances of going undetected so why wouldn't he do that?<br />
<br /><br />I have thought the same as you did.. Don't forget this is Michael we are talking about, he kind of loved living on the edge too. So this could have been a challenge for him to see if he could have gotten away with it. Right now like I said it is just sheer specualtions. Why did Michael faked his death? Why did he fake his death in June 25 and not May 25.. These are all hypothetical questions that is extremely hard to get right now. We can speculate as much as we want, all our ideas combined makes sense. All the theories of other members makes sense too. Michael is an intelligent man who is making us going crazy to find out how he made this illusion. <br />
<br /><br />That is indeed a sheer speculation. Again, anything is possible, but only a few things are probable and plausible. We were given a very clear directive to complete this level and that's what I'm operating under. <br /><br />We know why he chose to fake his death on 6/25/09, we covered those numerological reasons many times. TS referenced those reasons again in the OP of this thread. I disagree we are dealing with hypothetical questions. These are very real, tangible questions. All our ideas do not make sense Some clearly make little sense at all and so they are debunked.
<br />I'm sorry, I have a lot of thoughts on these subjects and I'm just on a roll. <br /><br />I think this is technically off topic but I have trouble with the decoy escape theory in general. If Michael wanted to flee Carrolwood that day he should have left before 12:21 and everything started. Or, conversely, he would be smartest to wait until the Ambulance left and everyone departed, and the world thought he was at UCLA fighting for his life to leave Carrolwood. What would force him to have to leave Carrolwood simultaneously with the ambulance? Even if he was in fear for his life and running from an organized attempt to murder him, 5 minutes behind the ambulance's departure would have tremendously increased his chances of going undetected so why wouldn't he do that?<br />
<br /><br />I have thought the same as you did.. Don't forget this is Michael we are talking about, he kind of loved living on the edge too. So this could have been a challenge for him to see if he could have gotten away with it. Right now like I said it is just sheer specualtions. Why did Michael faked his death? Why did he fake his death in June 25 and not May 25.. These are all hypothetical questions that is extremely hard to get right now. We can speculate as much as we want, all our ideas combined makes sense. All the theories of other members makes sense too. Michael is an intelligent man who is making us going crazy to find out how he made this illusion. <br />
<br /><br />That is indeed a sheer speculation. Again, anything is possible, but only a few things are probable and plausible. We were given a very clear directive to complete this level and that's what I'm operating under. <br /><br />We know why he chose to fake his death on 6/25/09, we covered those numerological reasons many times. TS referenced those reasons again in the OP of this thread. I disagree we are dealing with hypothetical questions. These are very real, tangible questions. All our ideas do not make sense Some clearly make little sense at all and so they are debunked.<br />
<br /><br />You are a smart cookie Bec.. I will have a fresh mind tomorrow it is 2h00 in the morning so I am sleepy. I enjoyed conversing with you tonight and learned alot from you.. Talk to you again tomorrow.. blessings.
You're really sweet, All4love. Have a wonderful evening and thanks for letting me talk out a lot of things with you tonight. I enjoyed our back n forth as well. tty next time my dear.
[size=12pt]- WHAT IF Michael didn't need any ambulance to escape, nor a SUV, nor a police car?<br /><br />- What if Michael escaped disguised as Murray? or He was never at Carolwood on the 25th of June?? maybe he was all the time , waiting, at the airport? or why not watching his own show at a distance, from his safe-secret-place?<br /><br />- What if there is a Murray-mask, created on computer with all special effects, just like the one from Ghosts-video?<br /><br />- What if in order to create even more confusion, 2 people used this same mask!<br />ONE would be very tall and muscular, the sportive type, seen doing jogging on the beach, seen walking in and out of the court, this one could be one of the dancers, for ex. Travis Payne wearing the Murray mask!<br />And the other ONE , who is seen only sitting, like in giving interviews or acting in the documentary! and yeah this is MICHAEL wearing the same mask!<br />Could this be possible?? <br /><br />In these 2+ years since this whole circus started, I've got accustomed to think that Michael is really capable of anything!! The more unbelievable/extraordinary/magical/never heard-of/crazy it sounds, "the more-Michael" it is !! because he has never been afraid to explore "new territories", to create the "never before seen".[/size]<br /><br />
<br />[....]<br />How many dozens of pics of MJ and Murray side-by-side haven't we seen for 2+ years in TMZ. Murray in court wearing a pink tie and elsewhere on the beach with a pink shirt -- Pink Panther anyone?[/size]<br />This is going with the MJ = Murray theory.<br />[size=9pt]With this theory I think there WERE doubles or MJ-look-alikes on June 25th who played the role of the MJ who sat up on the stretcher going in to UCLA, the MJ climbing out of the coroner’s van, the MJ climbing into a jet, and the MJ-like guy in the blue shirt inside the gate that we see briefly. These were all intentional decoys/illusion distractions to get the audiences especially hoaxer minds going in another direction (true magician tricks). MJ was in full disguise that whole day – as Dr. Murray getting into the ambulance, then stiding into UCLA, then “spinning” and nervous looking to everyone, striding down the hall as evidence B, or “Exhibit B”, finally exiting the hospital as on the footage. Perhaps ALL other live-looking footage seen on TMZ of CM has been taken even in May (“full out”) or June 9 (mistaken death day), since no fans appear upset at his freedom in public. The CM footage may have been green screened at Culver Studios as part of the Dome Project which would enable changing illusion of height. [/size]<br /><br />[size=9pt]In this scenario I’m thinking perhaps there was an MJ-like dummy used in the bedroom with the CPR drama played out (same one as in the amb pic, and autopsy pic) with MJ/Murray speaking in the background while the 911 phone call (not real) was made by Alverez, MJ/CM goes with medics and dummy to UCLA, dummy is dealt with as a real body by staff where family “grieves” and Kathy Hilton rubs its feet (in on hoax), dummy sent to coroner who makes fake AR, dummy stays wherever (?) where eventually LaToya and Karen play dress-up with it as long as they need to. When the body moves in the heli, I believe this dummy can be wired to do this even romote control (videos have been posted showing this capability). Remember early on it was said that when the children saw MJ in the bedroom they thought he was playing dead like he'd done before, so they would have really enjoyed playing this game of MJ dressed as a doctor working on a dummy MJ (which they acted out again later in a youtube video.) Also remember Murray loves Katherine like his own mother, his children as his own, and says he's "The Source" suspicious// (TS) . There was his letter to his patients which sounded just like the hoax plans, and then there was the Youtube video of Murray thanking his (fans) friends for their support. If anyone wants to add a little more details with this scenario I would be pleased, just to test it much further.[/size]<br />[...]
YESSSS!!! Totally possible! /bravo/<br />I was going to write something similar too! Thanks for saving my time and for expressing so well this possible version of the hoax!<br /><br />Murray is a much too bizarre character !!! All the oddities are well highlighted in the pics below and his voice is alsooooo.... surreal!!! I've always been intrigued by [size=12pt]his voice[/size]!! It's in total contrast with him, with his body!. his voice much too ...how to put it...too frail, too weak....<br />Not to talk about [size=12pt]those eyes[/size]!!! There's something so familiar in Murray's eyes!<br /><br />
on 1320581110:
[. . . . .]<br />This is the pic I found about his "vitiligo-hand"?? loll WTF??<br /><br /><br /><br />The original pic:<br /><br /> <br /><br />This one circulated a lot on facebook at one point...<br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />[size=12pt]Then what is also very strange is how Murray and everything that happens to him , literally MIRRORS Michael and everything that happened to him![/size]<br /><br /><br /><br />I think [size=12pt]the handcuffing-trick ^^ [/size]with Murray being handcuffed so abruptly and in such an ostentatious manner while the judge was still speaking [such an unusual & useless "legal" procedure!!] is just another clear-connection to the 2005 trial, a subliminal message to the V for Vendetta! Michael's Vendetta for what they did to him back then! Michael was also uselessly handcuffed!! especially because he surrendered to the authorities by himself!! <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />ARTICLES:<br />http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/07/conrad-murray-sack-lunch-jail/#.TrpJJ1ZWqwc<br />http://www.bittenandbound.com/2011/11/08/dr-conrad-murray-has-been-placed-on-suicide-watch/<br />
<br /> The point of using what he owns rather than the equiptment or vehicles of LAFD is that Michael would not want to tie up public resources in the event of a genuine emergency. Using his own resources as much as possible makes the hoax more controllable.<br />
<br /><br />I see your point.<br />Yet for the realism of it all, I believe LAFD resources were used.<br />Another reason for what I believe this is because MJ couldn't fake his death without governmental help.<br /><br />I don't think the UCLA hospital or the LAFD would decide by themselves to help Michael, without having a higher permission.<br /><br />Imagine you are a doctor/manager of UCLA - would you take the risk of helping anyone fake his death?<br />Especially when it's someone so famous like MJ?<br /><br />OK some might say they were well paid for their help but I believe the payment can't compensate serving jail time for such an illegal action.<br /><br /><br />
This is most likely why the light was on all night in the bedroom
<br /><br />Poor MJ - there was no way he could sleep if the light was on. Conrad should have simply turn off the lights if he wanted Michael to sleep :roll: :roll: :roll:<br />
<br /><br />I've never heard that before!!Of course he wouldn't be able to sleep if the lights were on...And the security tapes were vanished..hmmm....It's crystal clear that the man is dead. YEAH, RIGHT, WHATEVER!! lolol/
Thanks SimPattyK and RK for your positive comments to my theory! I agree - THINK PINK! And EVERYTHING including Elvis connects in this multi-layered onion of a hoax! There is not one pic of Murray and Michael together suspicious// , and we are to believe he has been their family doctor since 2006. It seems very few people even recall meeting him, except Kenny Ortega and Randy Phillips who are most likely in the hoax. It seems the character of Murray has been conjured out of thin air--a mirage--his name from The court of last resort, and the name with medical history and patients is all very fictional. <br /><br /><br />Here's video someone way back did morphing MJ's face with Murray's.<br /><br /><br /> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yESGptNNsJ0 <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Murray as doctor and actor info.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXuvKWrapCs<br /><br /><br /><br />Like the Jermaine "leaving for the airport" slip-up, so also the Ben slip-up of "the other day" may have been entirely to mislead hoaxers. I think it was RK on another thread that said, “We’ve ALL been had by MJ”, in different ways. On the other hand it seems impossible to have the one and only "death" day running through the entire complex timing, positions and acting of those in on it, all co-ordinated to mesh with not-in-on the hoax people-- all go so incredibly smoothly without any glitches or problems. Potentially so very many things could have easily sabotaged it. God must have been smiling down on them all that day, and at least a legion of angels sent to manage it all. So I'm thinking June 9 could have been a run-through rehearsal of sorts. We don't know for sure exactly when fans were first aware of MJ's move from Las Vegas to this house, or the hotel that Kathy Hilton mentions that MJ was living at where she had last visited him. There was the OV Guide guy bringing the bread and salt that was saying the neighbourhood was upset that the Christmas wreaths were still up on the 100 Carolwood gates, in was it June? Does anyone remember if that was before June 9th?<br /><br /><br />I don't think the 20+ years planning of the hoax would mean MJ's life was in danger so that he needed to flee that day. I think he stayed involved and very close, as he says he does with all his projects. I also think the whole FBI involvement is a fabrication as well.<br /><br /><br />[size=9pt]Sandythyme[/size]<br />
[size=9pt]This is probably a stupid thing to write, but could the tour bus be on a daily tour schedule and pass by Carolwood drive around the same thyme everyday? So they wouldn't be in on it, it would just be a normal schedule. I have a feeling that Michael planted alot of seeds and mixed the planed hoax with everyday occurances to look real and fall into place and then watched his plans grow. It kind of goes along is simplifying thing for realism. Use everyday life to fit your plot or idea. Sorry if I am way off here. Take care, Love to All[/size]
<br />[size=9pt]Sounds like the Mission Impossible series, where they observed the usual and planned accordingly.[/size]<br /><br />[size=9pt]Thanks to some thorough step-by-step going through scenarios by Grace, Snoopy71, Bec, and more. It's helpful to once again try to see which explanations fit all known info we have, plus now from the trial. So many that we think are innocent bystanders or workers may look so genuine but in reality be VERY good actors. I realize TS is wanting us to start with 0 people in on it and MJ is dead, then add actors/those in on it, as we need them. Well after that obvious hoax courtcase it seems that that number is bigger than we first suspected when we last thoroughly discussed TS' similar questions/levels.[/size]<br /><br />[size=9pt]Monstertooty [/size]<br />
[size=9pt]@Gina the firetruck IMO is part of the cooperation of LAFD that I spoke of. Mike may own a fire truck for all we know though LOL. Simply put, I think the ambulance was already at the house then the fire truck rolls in and the plan goes into motion. lights, camera, action.[/size][size=9pt]<br /> Who in the world, when presented with the promise of the grandest childrens hospital in the world, wouldnt agree to help Michael with the hoax?[/size]
<br /><br />[size=9pt]I think this makes good sense. I scratch your back, you scratch mine! MJ always knows how to get what he wants![/size]<br />
Ive just seem a video of Linda from starmaps, who is situated almost right infront of MJ's house, and she saw everything. She recounts the events and said the ambulance arrived at MJ's house [size=12pt]at 12.45pm[/size]<br /><br />Now remember on the ambulance video, you can hear the photographers saying "Ahhh Linda...he'll be alright".<br /><br />But she claims that she was there the whole time, so when did she get time to get in a car of one of her paparazzi friends at the scene, and go to UCLA hospital....<br /><br />But she also is a Believer now........she told Twiggy from MJhoaxlive, that there was some suspicious going on's that morning.........<br /><br />Lets not forget the video of the remaining bodyguards making a punch fist together as if to say "Yes, we pulled it off"
First of all, we know the ambulance picture is fake. Many many MANY things were discussed; angles, lighting, change of shooting a picture like that etc. in the February 26 thread. What absolutely did it for me was the sun reflection on the car in the picture, since there was almost no sun reflection on the car in the video. So for anyone still having doubts about the picture, look at this and try to explain how that would be possible:<br /><br />
on 1299477063:
<br />
<br />Well TS, I gave it a day or two and I indeed stayed out of trouble hurting my eyes over this picture and the videos. You owe me a pair of glasses and a new brain <br /><br />... the reflection of the car doesn't match the car on the scene when you look at the lighting of the sun. The car in the video has no sun reflection in the left (front), while the one in the picture has a lot of sun reflection there. Also the sun reflection on the car in the picture is much more than in the video, where the car is more in the shadow:<br /><br /><br /><br />... So whaddya got? 8-)
<br /><br />Here is your pair of glasses, and they come free with a new brain attached to them! :shock: <br /><br />http://globaleyeglasses.com/glassesmania/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/monkey-with-funny-glasses.jpg<br /><br />Anyway, the different shadows is another one that is tough to debunk. I could say that the still is a high resolution camera, and the video is much lower resolution; so the spots of sunlight on the hood of the still could be blurred into the shadows on the video. But that doesn't work very well, because there are large sunlit areas on the front of the hood in the video, which have shadow (or shadow with small sunlit spots) on the front of the hood in the still.<br /><br />I guess I will have to go out on a limb here as well (just like the monitor switch), and say maybe the wind was blowing the trees--and that's why the shadows were different only 5 or 10 seconds after the still photo. <br /><br />Do we have a Sherlock Holmes in the house, who can prove whether or not the wind was blowing that afternoon?<br /><br />Edit: Here is a closer shot of the red car from the video, and the left front wheel area is almost entirely in the shadows--while same left front wheel area in the ambulance photo above (remember it is mirrored; so it looks like the right front, but it's actually the left front) is almost entirely in the sun!<br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />So that's a done deal for me, no need to discuss that any further. I also think we have established that the ambulance was there that day. The stalker fans are a risk indeed, so there had to be an ambulance there that day. That means there is no need to have an ambulance there another day. IF the footage was filmed another day, the only option would be to film it when it was not rented by MJ yet, before the media and stalker fans would be hanging around there daily. That seems like a risk as well, the house could have burned down in 6+ months and in that case they couldn't have used the footage anymore, so they would have to stage it all on June 25th anyway. There is no purpose at all to have 2 ambulances, because Michael didn't have a cardiac arrest and didn't have to be taken to the hospital. If he wanted to get the hell outta there, he could have used a car, or walk out in disguise as one of the employees for that matter, IF he was even there to begin with.<br /><br />Already going on with 7b since I want to get it out while I still remember what I want to say about it. There is no purpose for a real dead body. If I think about the people that have seen it, then nothing at all or maybe a dummy would do the trick. The paramedics are clearly in on it. Senneff testified that Blount parked the ambulance at the front door, just to the left of the stairs on People's number 7:<br /><br />(Around 6:20)<br /><br /><br />Senneff clearly says that the FRONT of the ambulance was somewhere at the left of the picture. It makes no sense that the back of the ambulance would be even more to the left, since you don't want to travel around the world to finally be able to load the patient into the ambulance. Common sense tells us that the back of the ambulance would be more to the right, where the front door is located and the side door would also be facing the house and therefor easily accessable. That means that the front of the ambulance was pointed towards the gate: 100 North Carolwood Drive<br />So WHY would Blount back out of the property? He has a dying patient in the back and he thinks it's efficient to turn the ambulance to leave the property backwards? That makes no sense at all. If those paramedics were not in on it, and thought they had a real emergency on their hands, they would not have done that. Even if they were sure the patient was dead and there was no need to hurry, it would still make no sense that they would leave the property backwards.<br /><br />We know that someone pulled the fire alarm at the hospital and as far as I know, there were only three people in the ER, who they mentioned by name. Cooper worked on a dead body for way too long, while she testified that 'Mr. Jackson was DOA'. Then why wait until 2:26 before pronounce him? Because Murray said so? It's her ER, it's her call. But instead of pronouncing him dead, she beeps Nguyen around 1:13pm (I can be off a few minutes) to assist her. Why? If he's dead, he's dead. You can call 10 other doctors, but dead is dead. I know that and I am not a doctor. IF you would be able to revive the heart, you would be looking at a vegetable. I remember Nguyen had a lot of medical bla bla and she seemed to know her profession, but the only thing that really seem to stick out was what she repeated a few times: 'Time was not on Mr. Jackson's side'. For a woman who uses so many medical words to explain herself, that seemed to be pretty random and vague. The third doctor would be Dr. Cruz, and he didn't testify at all. Not a word from Dr. Cruz. Why not? Why didn't he testify? Maybe he agreed to be involved but didn't want to lie, or maybe he simply is a lousy liar. <br /><br />The coroner is in on it whatever way you look at it. He is the one person who can't be fooled. Not with a dummy, not with a real body. If you claim that the coroner is not in on it, you automatically say that the AR is not fabricated but based on a real autopsy, which means a healthy person died of acute propofol intoxication. You would also automatically have to believe the body was fresh, because a coroner can't be fooled with a corpse that was in the fridge for weeks, or in deep freeze. I posted my converstaion with a pathologist a few weeks ago. And in that case you actually believe Michael is dead, since the body was identified as being Michael Jackson, remember they also took fingerprints.<br /><br />The guys in the helicopter that took the body to the coroner don't have to in on it at all, they could have been told that they needed to take a dummy with them and fly with an open door to make sure the predators (media) would stay distracted and that they would bring the real body with a van for safety reasons.<br /><br />I think there are one or two cops that allegedly saw the body, someone from Forest Lawn (according to La Toya) and Jeffre Phillips, La Toya's friend, who (according to Jermaine's book) stayed at Carolwood drive for two weeks after June 25 to keep an eye and of course the family. That's it. If there is a hoax and a sting, then you need to have at least them in on it. I know less people were involved in Elvis' hoax, but Elvis simply escaped. He didn't plan to come back and he wasn't making a movie. Best scenario would be that only MJ himself would be in on it, but it's simply impossible. What about the people that attended the staged funeral? That funeral was absolutely staged in a movie setting. Did the people that attended simply think that was normal? That were quite some people there. So if you can have Chris Tucker, Elizabeth Taylor, Kenny Ortega, Randy Phillips, Macaulay Culkin, Travis Payne and the TII dancers in on it, and all the others that were there, then how would a few officials and doctors make a difference?<br /><br />One option is that they used a dummy, so that the paramedics and the doctors could recall something that really happened. But I have a hard time believing that professional paramedics and doctors would really work on a dummy for hours, KNOWING that it's fake. It's really not that much they had to remember, and Senneff and Blount did have contradicting things in their testimony. It makes more sense that they used the time in the house and the ER to go through the last details and instructions. The human mind is very capable to imagine a situation, even to the point that someone starts to actually believe it, as long as it is repeated often enough. But if bec and I (for example) both would get a story we have to visualize and remember, our stories might differ in the end. One of us could have read a certain line differently and therefor our stories might not add up in the end. Could explain why Blount saw Murray hiding bottles while MJ was still in the room, and Senneff saw Murray hiding bottles after they loaded him in the ambulance, and Senneff went back to the room to pick up his stuff (which is another waste of time). If everyone was merely recalling things that they actually saw happen, there would be less contradictions. And the contradictions are no problem, since the sting requires that everyone should be able to figure out that it's a hoax.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
In my previous post I only wanted to give some structure. <br /> We still rush into believing what we see without questioning enough.<br /> <br /> I am aware of having been tricked many times in this - optically and in mind games. Still I am missing branches in the trees where the cars are parked but I'll put this to rest as yet another optical illusion.<br /> <br /> I think the whole set is pretty simple if we keep it minimalistic, too.<br /> No effect desired - no cause / cast required. <br /> <br /> This makes it:<br />
<br /> [li]one ambulance at Carolwood arriving upon (planted) emergency call[/li]<br /> [li]a (living) body = Michael with Doc Murray in the ambulance[/li]<br /> [li]Michael arriving with Doc Murray at UCLA[/li]<br /> [li]exchange with corpse from UCLA's body donation research program - as of here illusion begins -[/li]<br /> [li]family identifies corpse as Michael -> no DNA check[/li]<br /> [li]body goes to coroner, Michael leaves to ???[/li]<br /> [li]coroner writes report on examination of wrong corpse[/li]<br /> [li]coroner report induces DA activities[/li]<br /> [li]DA activities induce kangaroo court with an elephant in the room[/li]<br /> [li]Doc Murray gets "guilty of man's laughter" verdict[/li]<br />
I excluded the alternative of a body exchange with a non-claimed corpse at the Coroner's morgue because that would be pretty complicated and risky. Michael must have been appearing "dead" = anabiotic at UCLA. This would have been detected by modern intense care monitoring equipment. Too much effort, too many witnesses.
<br />Snoopy, totally agreed with all the above. I was focusing on the first part of The Scenario, the Ambulance @Carrolwood, which is 2 different one-camera films. The HT video (Ben's) does have an edit in it where the last :03 or so is actually the beginning of the tape for some reason edited into the end, the tourist video is one camera start to finish, no edits, and I was debunking those films being fake (staged on set) or the result of 2 takes.<br /><br />It is possible that the "en-route" footage was filmed earlier or later. It's less then :10 of driving behind an ambulance on the main boulevard so this could be done anytime without rousing suspicion... although it almost certainly necessitates enlisting the services of an emergency vehicle on a second day (it had to be Ambulance 71), so there would have to be a reason why it was decided to film it this way. Those guys really did RUN off to something, presumably vehicles to follow the ambulance, so why not film while they're at it? If they did and something went wrong, and they decided not to use the tape, perhaps that necessitated the use of a second day of filming. But again there would be little risk of rousing suspicion while filming the ambulance just driving down the street. In any case, it still means there was an ambulance 71 that departed Carrolwood on 6/25/09 at ~1:00pm.<br /><br />Off current topic: @Anyone who supports the 2 ambulances theory, i'm confused as to what the point is? Is Michael ambulancing out the side gate to escape while the paps and the (~10 person) "crowd" focus on the ambulance backing out the front? If so, why's he taking an ambulance? Why wouldn't he just hop in the back of one of his trusted entourage's SUV's and split? Why would you need a second ambulance? An SUV is much less conspicuous then an ambulance if you're trying to not attract attention to yourself. I don't understand what question the 2 ambulance theory is attempting to answer, so anyone who can explain further please do.<br />
<br /><br />Bec it is the contrary, an SUV would be more consipicuous. Most of the public knows that celebritiy have black SUV. By having another ambulance, and taking another exit, no one on the road would suspect Michael is in that ambulance. As we all know ambulances have the free of way with the sirens on. That ambulance must have brought Michael to the airport as Jermaine stated.( as a slip up).. Very clever from Michael, no one would suspect anything. They would focus on the ambulance that backed up very slowlyyyyyyyyyyy.<br />
<br /><br /><br />I do not believe that Michael leaves Carrolwood in an ambulance and then reaches the airport in the ambulance that would have called the attention of so many people at that airport.
<br />In my previous post I only wanted to give some structure. <br /> We still rush into believing what we see without questioning enough.<br /> <br /> I am aware of having been tricked many times in this - optically and in mind games. Still I am missing branches in the trees where the cars are parked but I'll put this to rest as yet another optical illusion.<br /> <br /> I think the whole set is pretty simple if we keep it minimalistic, too.<br /> No effect desired - no cause / cast required. <br /> <br /> This makes it:<br />
<br /> [li]one ambulance at Carolwood arriving upon (planted) emergency call[/li]<br /> [li]a (living) body = Michael with Doc Murray in the ambulance[/li]<br /> [li]Michael arriving with Doc Murray at UCLA[/li]<br /> [li]exchange with corpse from UCLA's body donation research program - as of here illusion begins -[/li]<br /> [li]family identifies corpse as Michael -> no DNA check[/li]<br /> [li]body goes to coroner, Michael leaves to ???[/li]<br /> [li]coroner writes report on examination of wrong corpse[/li]<br /> [li]coroner report induces DA activities[/li]<br /> [li]DA activities induce kangaroo court with an elephant in the room[/li]<br /> [li]Doc Murray gets "guilty of man's laughter" verdict[/li]<br />
I excluded the alternative of a body exchange with a non-claimed corpse at the Coroner's morgue because that would be pretty complicated and risky. Michael must have been appearing "dead" = anabiotic at UCLA. This would have been detected by modern intense care monitoring equipment. Too much effort, too many witnesses.<br />
<br /><br /><br />Thank you, thank you Grace! bow/ <br /><br />My thought process is right in line with your post (saves me alot of typing!) <br /><br />So I hope you don't mind if I use yours as a model ::P<br /><br />The body:<br /><br />1) Ambulance leaves Carolwood arrives at UCLA (Michael/Dr. Murray aboard)<br />2) Ambulance gurney enters emergency room (Michael/Murray/EMS/Security etc)<br />3) A corpse from UCLA's body donation research program is prepared for transport<br />4) Donated corpse is airlifted to Coroners via helicopter* <br />5) Donated corpse is shuttled to Coroners via transport van*<br />6) Coroner writes fake autopsy report (collaborated to Michaels specs) <br />7) Coroner findings reported to media--->induces DA activities (Kangaroo court)<br /><br /><br /><br />Yup....that about covers it for me.<br /><br />...(buzz) final answer....(for now) <br /><br />.....time for breakfast & coffee! <br />
Snoopy: in your scenario, why do you need a donated body simply for the helicopter scene? Since it was simply a body shape wrapped in a sheet, couldn't this "corpse" simply be a dummy or even a live person playing dead? What's the benefit of using a real corpse for this portion? What's the detriment? A real body may leak bodily fluids. A sheet would not protect surfaces or hands from coming in contact with these fluids. It's messy. What desired benefit of using a real body would be worth risking this mess for hoax purposes? Why bother using a real body for just this portion (as you have outlined)?<br /><br />@Grace: I don't think 28 months of investigation is "rushing" to believe at all. On the contrary, I think this is a very methodical and organized rational approach to believing. <br /><br />@Souza, thanks for reposting those stills of the red car and thereby re-proving that the ambulance pic was staged, for all those who missed that.<br /><br />Again, please, @anyone who wants to participate in the conversation, go back and read all the previous levels so we can move forward as a team, and not be distracted and held back by those unfamiliar with the information.<br /><br />Also, please stay on topic as much as possible. SimPattyK, as fun as your montages are, the one you posted on Murray/Michael is very off topic and due to the size of the file, quite distracting to the conversation, requiring significant scrolling to get past it. Please refrain from posting your montages here unless they are on topic.<br /><br />Unless anyone else wants to weigh in, I feel as though we have collectively settled on the most logical chain of events on 6/25/09 @Carrolwood is that one ambulance arrived, and then departed en-route to UCLA in live time as was depicted on the video taken by Ben's crew. All popular alternative ambulance theories offered here have been successfully and unequivocally debunked. <br /><br />If you disagree with my statement, please, weigh in and be heard, so we can continuing making progress.
I think we can sum up our conclusions for 7a with this quote:<br /><br />TS:<br />
[size=12pt]There would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.[/size]
Comments
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."<br /> [li]one ambulance at Carolwood arriving upon (planted) emergency call[/li]<br /> [li]a (living) body = Michael with Doc Murray in the ambulance[/li]<br /> [li]Michael arriving with Doc Murray at UCLA[/li]<br /> [li]exchange with corpse from UCLA's body donation research program - as of here illusion begins -[/li]<br /> [li]family identifies corpse as Michael -> no DNA check[/li]<br /> [li]body goes to coroner, Michael leaves to ???[/li]<br /> [li]coroner writes report on examination of wrong corpse[/li]<br /> [li]coroner report induces DA activities[/li]<br /> [li]DA activities induce kangaroo court with an elephant in the room[/li]<br /> [li]Doc Murray gets "guilty of man's laughter" verdict[/li]<br />
I excluded the alternative of a body exchange with a non-claimed corpse at the Coroner's morgue because that would be pretty complicated and risky. Michael must have been appearing "dead" = anabiotic at UCLA. This would have been detected by modern intense care monitoring equipment. Too much effort, too many witnesses.