<br />I think a cancer tumor would have been discovered at the autopsy.<br />Well, it is still possible the coroner to be in the hoax and report the acute propofol intoxication as teh cause of death instead of cancer, in case we have a double who died.<br />
<br /><br />See to me is hard to believe coroner is in hoax unless there is a very good reason for that to cover/help Michael from assassins, for example. In this scenario, coroner can be in hoax and he would definitely write AR that would describe Michael for people to believe dead patient is Michael. He would not write in AR cause of death cancer even if cancer patient really died as MJ. I hope you get my point.
I'm thinking of TS post stating ambo picture taking inside. I agree with those that believe the ambo pics were taken at the Dome (INSIDE). Which also makes me wonder about the bedroom & autopsy pics. How do we know these pics were actually taken in a hosiptal & mike's home or an illusion? I've only posted here one other time, but have hung around for 2 looooong yrs. Thanks to this forum & u-tube vids I still keep the faith....ALIVE
As for a photo of ambulance and body in it, I suppose that the photo of ambulance is real and as for body it was taken from picture of Michael in an oxygen chamber which was done many years ago.
Ok, so keeping it simple and believable... <br />1. So perhaps someone died that day, and perhaps they had heart problems and that would explain the hiring of a cardiologist.<br />2. Why argue facts that any other time we would see no problem with, like the adress the EMT machine showed in regards to the location of the caller. I dont care if there was a cell tower near by or not, it is ridiculous that EMT's on an emergency call would have to start guessing where they have to go to reach the person in desperate need. And how perfect that the adress given is one for a motel, the call could have been made from there in absolute privacy.<br />3. Assuming that is what happened, MJ can make a safe escape from the motel while everyone else is rushing to his mansion in somewhat of a panic or at least concerned. While all the attention is over there MJ in disguise could have headed to the airport, LAX airport was shut down for a bit that day for an unknown flight, got on a plane and got out of town.<br />4. Another thing I dont care about is how professional the paramedics may be, they are still human and act according, they knew they were headed into a prestigous area to pick up their patient and I am sure they glanced at the patient even if I believe one said at the trial that he didn't. The paramedics say they did not recognize MJ so who is to say it was MJ lying there. Maybe this is the type of detail we do not need to figure out and simply need to understand it was not MJ. Really, who would dare question or doubt that it was MJ when everything else fits, it's the right people and the scene fits the wide spread rumors of MJ's weirdness. Nobody will dare voice doubts.<br />5. This brings us to the ambulance photo. Do you all remember the interview about taking MJ's dying pic with Ben Evansted? He said that it all started as a normal day they were going to hang out around MJ's mansion and then they intercepted a call about an ambulance headed to MJ's mansion AND he added he didn't make much of it cause it was nothing unusual for an ambulance to go there, that it would go there time to time. He then said they were not too concerned, it could have been anybody in the mansion who was sick. He continued to say that they managed to get up close to the front of the EMT vehicule and read the screen : 50 yr old male, not breathing. Ben says he then quickly realized it was something serious and that it was MJ.<br />6. Wich brings us to the famous pic itself, maybe when Ben had the photos developped he realized he didn't get a good pic. But probably knew he was the only one to have snapped a pic of in the ambulance so maybe he went into his archives and started photoshopping. I'm sure he's very ressourcefull and has acces to tons of pics. It dont explain the garbage though but regardless it is still a possibility.<br />7. As for the toxicology reports.. Has anyone been paying attention to the Bieber baby allegations? I have and the lawyer for the women bringing the baby allegations said the other day on HLN that he was broght in the case to make sure the tests are conducted properly and not tampered with. He says we all know those things happen all the time, tampering of test results. At the hospital again nobody dared to question wether it was really MJ and ID'd him using his driver's license, no DNA.<br />Now to me this seems quite real and simple, only minor discrepancy is that the whole time the patient was ?? and MJ was already out of the pic. Let's not forget the mafia's good old saying: "It's easy for 3 men to keep a secret when 2 are dead!" So who could MJ really trust?? My guess is family, a couple body guards and the good old doc who would be the fall guy for a big fat check I'm sure.<br /><br />Yes I'm sure you will all point out some missing details in my theory, but TS said not to worry about all the little details cause we will probably never know and it is a realistic scenario and simple with not too many people involved. But go ahead and give your feedback, please... but keep it constructive please! bangbang 8)
Jennie, Thank you so much for your post. It is close to what I was saying before but I had put in way too many details that were not needed. I have been pulling my hair out trying to find the correct wording with what I was trying to say. But, I so agree with you on many things.
Ok, so I'll start with NO HOAX first.<br /><br />- Michael's heart stops when Murray goes to the bathroom and talks with his gf on the phone. Murray comes BACK and finds him lifeless and screams Alvarez and Prince to get to the room. Prince goes up to the room according to Alvarez but he doesn't go up to the room and stays with the chef and Paris downstairs and they hold each other's hands and pray according to the chef. Murray asks if someone in the room knows how to do CPR and then he starts to do CPR on the bed and he gives mouth to mouth which he never did before but he does it because Michael is his friend. He asks Alvarez to call 911. Alvarez makes the call, paramedics and also a firetruck arrives to the house. Paramedics work on the body who they can't recognize at first and tell that the victim who dies looks like an old, fragile Asian guy but then they say at the trial that they recognize Michael Jackson. The body is brought to UCLA but the doctors can not save him and bring back to life. Michael dies.<br /><br />With all these contradictions and ludicrousness, I do not understand how people can still think that Michael's death is real. <br /><br />Now I want to move to another level and consider the hoax with as FEW people as possible in it<br /><br />-Firstly I would like to say that a sick impersonator died theory is not possible as they couldn't arrange the exact day 6/25/2009 which is so perfect for the numerology side of the hoax. I do not believe someone really died that day BUT I believe that a dead body was used to make the whole scenario look more real, for the ones who are in on it to tell the events like they really experienced it, and to deceive the ones who are not in on it. <br /><br />A dead body would be useful if the paramedics are not in on the hoax. I'm not so sure if the doctors could be cheated with it but it was not possible to cheat the DA with a dead body who died long ago. BUT would it be possible to find a dead person who died that morning of 6/25 and pump propofol into his system? Would that work to deceive the DA? And is it possible to find a dead body that easy? I don't have an answer for these questions. BUT if it is possible, it would solve a lot of problems. <br /><br />I still do not believe the DA would be deceived but the paramedics and the doctors could be deceived with it IF they are not in on it and according to this scenario, they are not. Because we need to keep as few people as we can. So, the paramedics, the doctors at UCLA do not need to be in on the hoax. The DA already knows about it and they arrange a fake autopsy report. And a dead body makes Michael's death more real as the doctors and paramedics give their testimony without lying in the court. <br /><br />Without a dead body, whatever or whoever used for the ambulance picture and again whatever or whoever was brought to the hospital, the paramedics and the doctors have to be in on it. And as long as the FBI is involved which I believe that they are, it is not so hard for the FBI to make the doctors and paramedics or the DA cooperate with them. And especially IF the sting is against to medical field which is another possibility. <<< The possible FBI involvement brings more people into the hoax. It gives Michael the possibility of arranging fake documents, fake trials and fake witnesses which is the only possibility to pull the hoax imo. <br /><br />About the ambulance picture<br /><br />- First off, I do believe Ben is in on it. If we consider Ben's slip up "we were there that day and the other da... uhmm", there must be two days where they shoot the ambulance scene. The first scene was shot on probably on another location and on another place because there had to be a clear picture to show to the media as another proof that Michael was in that ambulance and dead. And to take a picture from a moving ambulance and from the tinted windows of it would be so hard and the picture could be blurry. No need to risk it and they brought an ambulance which doesn't need to be the same with the one on the 25th, maybe Michael or maybe a dummy got into the ambulance and Ben took the pictures. And then Ben added an older picture of Michael's face with Photoshop because that was going to be another clue for the hoax.<br /><br />And on the 25th, there was an ambulance at the house once again. Ben was there too and he made it look like he was taking the pictures because he was going to tell later that he took the ambulance pictures. The paramedics bringing someone or something on a stretcher into the ambulance made it look real for the ones who do not know about the hoax (the fans, people outside the house etc)<br /><br />Ok, for now these are what I wanted to share. I'll be adding some more as soon as I clear my mind. There're thousands of thoughts right now flirting with each other and my poor brain doesn't know on which one to concentrate. geek/<br /><br />And finally, thank you so much TS. I knew you were going to make it today. bearhug
Yeah, Level 7! I skimmed through the posts. I have so little time for reading on here! Glad to see you made your 111 post on 11/11/11 TS!!! Hi to the Army of Love and everyone else too! <br />
OK bec, nobody died, but in this case they ALL have to be in, from the paramedics to UCLA doctors and coroner.<br />My problem is they testified in court and they seemed real and not lying, well I can not prove they weren't acting/lying, as well as you can not prove the opposite.<br /><br />How can they all be in?<br /><br /><br /><br />
<br />OK bec, nobody died, but in this case they ALL have to be in, from the paramedics to UCLA doctors and coroner.<br />My problem is they testified in court and they seemed real and not lying, well I can not prove they weren't acting/lying, as well as you can not prove the opposite.<br /><br />How can they all be in?<br />
<br /><br />Gina, did you read my post? Maybe it's better for us to read every each of the posts that is made on this thread as TS asked from us to do also.
<br />OK bec, nobody died, but in this case they ALL have to be in, from the paramedics to UCLA doctors and coroner.<br />My problem is they testified in court and they seemed real and not lying, well I can not prove they weren't acting/lying, as well as you can not prove the opposite.<br /><br />How can they all be in?<br />
<br /><br />Gina, did you read my post? Maybe it's better for us to read every each of the posts that is made on this thread as TS asked from us to do also. <br />
<br /><br />Yes I read your post PureLove. But I was reading bec's post before I read yours and before any of you made their posts I made a short one on the same subject.<br />
But Purelove you are undecided or I don't understand your point? bec is supporting one thing only, that there was no body - and asks us to collectively accept it.<br />What scenario do you support ? Sorry but I didn't understand it from your post.
<br />But Purelove you are undecided or I don't understand your point? bec is supporting one thing only, that there was no body - and asks us to collectively accept it.<br />What scenario do you support ? Sorry but I didn't understand it from your post.<br />
<br /><br />I wrote about different possibilities Gina. I didn't want to go with only one of them. You can choose the one you like or two. ANY of us can be sure at this point which one is the right. And the answer to your question "How can all the doctors and paramedics be in on the hoax?" is inside the post I made. That's the reason why I asked you to read it.
<br />But Purelove you are undecided or I don't understand your point? bec is supporting one thing only, that there was no body - and asks us to collectively accept it.<br />What scenario do you support ? Sorry but I didn't understand it from your post.<br />
<br /><br />I wrote about different possibilities Gina. I didn't want to go with only one of them. You pick one of them or two. ANY of us can be sure at this point which one is the right. And the answer to your question "How can all the doctors and paramedics be in on the hoax?" is inside the post I made. That's the reason why I asked you to read it. <br />
<br /><br />It was more of a rhetorical question, how can they all be in it? But I really wanted to see how Bec is seeing this because she is very determined about the no body scenario.
<br />But Purelove you are undecided or I don't understand your point? bec is supporting one thing only, that there was no body - and asks us to collectively accept it.<br />What scenario do you support ? Sorry but I didn't understand it from your post.<br />
<br /><br />I wrote about different possibilities Gina. I didn't want to go with only one of them. You pick one of them or two. ANY of us can be sure at this point which one is the right. And the answer to your question "How can all the doctors and paramedics be in on the hoax?" is inside the post I made. That's the reason why I asked you to read it. <br />
<br /><br />It was more of a rhetorical question, how can they all be in it? But I really wanted to see how Bec is seeing this because she is very determined about the no body scenario.<br />
<br /><br />We are all speculating here Gina. We're writing down the theories that sounds logical and plausible to us. No one knows the answers except Michael, TS and the ones who are in on the hoax. And I'm not so sure if we are going to learn every detail of this illusion which I doubt highly that we will. But we will go as further as we can and TS is guiding us. I do believe that we should consider all theories instead of focusing only one of them. <br /><br />And if we come to your question, the FBI involvement explains how all the doctors and paramedics can be in on the hoax but bec doesn't believe the sting operation. So I wonder about her reply as well but probably she will be saying that Michael has friends in high authorities who solved all these problems. I can be wrong tho and she can give another answer.
Once again I'm going to ask.<br />If this is NOT a sting, who is paying for it all? Who paid for the memorial? Who paid all the city workers at it? Who has been paying for everything all these past 2.5 years? Who pays for the trial and the attorneys and judge and witnesses and court and all the "legal" papers, and coroner and doctors? Who paid for the people making that damn documentary? <br />I believe Michael is rich, but we are talking over 2 years of millions...MILLIONS and millions of dollars. True he's made a lot of money, but I doubt for all of that. <br />So to me it's backed BY the gov. The legal papers are covered by the gov. The courtroom..judges...all the LIES. Because it's a sting. <br />Katherine and Rebbie? Well, it will be a movie one day...so acting.<br />Which, leaves me with, if this isn't a sting, it's simply a movie, whatever reasons, be it to call attention to rotten doctors, pharmacies, or Michael's past trials. OR the media. Whatever. If no sting, then movie. Which means he's paying people to ACT. Yet also, for the entire MEMORIAL!!
<br />Once again I'm going to ask.<br />If this is NOT a sting, who is paying for it all? Who paid for the memorial? Who paid all the city workers at it? Who has been paying for everything all these past 2.5 years? Who pays for the trial and the attorneys and judge and witnesses and court and all the "legal" papers, and coroner and doctors? Who paid for the people making that damn documentary? <br />I believe Michael is rich, but we are talking over 2 years of millions...MILLIONS and millions of dollars. True he's made a lot of money, but I doubt for all of that. <br />So to me it's backed BY the gov. The legal papers are covered by the gov. The courtroom..judges...all the LIES. Because it's a sting. <br />Katherine and Rebbie? Well, it will be a movie one day...so acting.<br />Which, leaves me with, if this isn't a sting, it's simply a movie, whatever reasons, be it to call attention to rotten doctors, pharmacies, or Michael's past trials. OR the media. Whatever. If no sting, then movie. Which means he's paying people to ACT. Yet also, for the entire MEMORIAL!!<br />
<br />To answer your terrific question about the funding, could it be possible that Michael put up the money in the beginning pre-6/25/09 and all the money that has been going to the "estate" from various things could be used to fund the hoax post 6/25/09?? Or maybe Michael got the money from one of his friends. The guy's name escapes me right now, but he's some kinda prince or something and there was some kinda "secret agreement" between them or something. I really wish I could remember. Anyways, you brought up an excellent point and my possible solutions are just something to think about.
<br />Once again I'm going to ask.<br />If this is NOT a sting, who is paying for it all? Who paid for the memorial? Who paid all the city workers at it? Who has been paying for everything all these past 2.5 years? Who pays for the trial and the attorneys and judge and witnesses and court and all the "legal" papers, and coroner and doctors? Who paid for the people making that damn documentary? <br />I believe Michael is rich, but we are talking over 2 years of millions...MILLIONS and millions of dollars. True he's made a lot of money, but I doubt for all of that. <br />So to me it's backed BY the gov. The legal papers are covered by the gov. The courtroom..judges...all the LIES. Because it's a sting. <br />Katherine and Rebbie? Well, it will be a movie one day...so acting.<br />Which, leaves me with, if this isn't a sting, it's simply a movie, whatever reasons, be it to call attention to rotten doctors, pharmacies, or Michael's past trials. OR the media. Whatever. If no sting, then movie. Which means he's paying people to ACT. Yet also, for the entire MEMORIAL!!<br />
<br />To answer your terrific question about the funding, could it be possible that Michael put up the money in the beginning pre-6/25/09 and all the money that has been going to the "estate" from various things could be used to fund the hoax post 6/25/09?? Or maybe Michael got the money from one of his friends. The guy's name escapes me right now, but he's some kinda prince or something and there was some kinda "secret agreement" between them or something. I really wish I could remember. Anyways, you brought up an excellent point and my possible solutions are just something to think about. <br />
<br /><br />Well, in the beginning of the hoax, remember, Michael was like $400M in debt!! So I doubt he had the backing for it. And who'd loan HIM money being that far in the hole, esp. if he was backing out of the TII concerts.<br />Maybe that Prince Fayed is the one to pay for it all. He did erect that statue of Michael everyone had the crap fit over.<br />
I think Lou Ferrigno gave us a subliminal explanation about "what" was in the ambulance picture when he said Michael would play pranks on the paparazzi by putting a 'dummy' in an ambulance and letting the paps chase it. Obviously, Michael must have had access to an ambulance to play a joke on the paps. What would make 6-25-09 ambulance pic and footage any different? <br /><br />I really think Michael has led the public to believe that he had no real friends so that it would be a bit more complicated to debunk a real emergency scenario (enough connections to successfully pull it off). MJ has friends, and most of his true friends snuck right under the press/media/paps radar. Michael is all about science fiction and fantasy, and I really believe he created his own sci-fi movie on the day in question. As bec stated previously, the numerology proves to me undoubtedly that this was indeed planned. There are two options for all of us in this sick world we live in: Victimizer or Victim. I believe Michael found a middle ground somewhere in his life. He is immune to hurtful rumors, he is above malicious innuendoes. He is more than capable of faking his own death. Gina made a good point, none of us were there to witness the game plan play by play, so how can we be so sure of the specifics when we have no grounds? When I need a good laugh, all I have to do is watch 'Leave Me Alone' short film and focus on the plastic MJ double.<br />There was a double that day, but it was not human.
the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible
<br /><br />SIMPLICITY - what a wonderful word bow/<br />..................<br />Too bad I've lost the ability to think is simple terms now /pull hair/ Everything has to be huge/mysterious/complicated :shock:<br /><br />And I feel so stupid because I am the only one who doesn't know why we have to believe that infamous ambulance photo was staged in advance :'(<br />
<br /><br />Ginafelicia, please just keep an opened mind.. I have been reading your several post, and this is the last one that broke the camel's back.. Please stop whinning, and just put your head together and think.. I know it is hard, it is hard for me too, I am trying hard to find what happened that day, but I do not whine and be negative. I do not want to harp on you, you are an intelligent young woman you can do it girl, you can do anything you put your mind to.. MJ did it, so can we..
Good posts from Bec and Pure Love. Both theories make a lot of sense. Pure Love, would the sick impersonator theory be possible if it was a terminally ill patient being kept alive by artificial means, and it was arranged to pull the plug on that exact date? I believe, also, that Ben is in on it, and that the "other day" was a trial run, rehearsal for the real thing. Thanks, TS for the new level post.
<br />This is my take on the ambulance picture. I think Ben is in on the hoax. He would have to be to know to photoshop MJ in the ambulance. I don't know if anyone has ever asked this before, but when was Farrah Faucett taken to the hospital? She is a celebrity and lived in the same area as MJ did. Ben could have been staking out her residence and caught them on camera with her in the ambulance leaving her home. He then could have had a conversation with MJ about getting the picture of her and MJ could have asked him to play around with the picture and put him in pic instead of Farrah. Which could have explained the difference of reflections on the ambulance picture and the surroundings at Carolwood. <br />Moving on to level 7b. I still believe that MJ was helping to take care of one of his impersonaters that had fallen ill and needed round the clock care from some kind of doctor. Which could explain why he insisted on Murray being his personal physician. Why would he want a cardiologist, instead of a regular physican to oversee his health? IMO, he needed Murray because he was friends with him and he knew Murray was in financial strain. He also knew that no other doctor would be willing to put their medical license and possible freedom on the line for MJ. Which is why MJ wanted to pay Murray so much money. I do believe that someone did die that day, but it wasnt MJ. It was his impersonator. The reason why I think that is because of what the EMT's said about the person they saw in the bedroom. A sick, frailed, old man, balding. He looked like a cancer patient. MJ was not sick, not frailed, not old looking and certainly not balding. MJ is skinny, but not so skinny that he looks like a cancer patient. Now lets go back to when this all went down. Murray comes down stairs and tells the cook to get Prince and get Paris! The kids new that something was happening but not to their daddy. If it was MJ dying any normal human being would call 911, but they had to wait because MJ needed to get out of the house quickly which is why they waited so long to call 911. This is when the ambulance comes in. Ben is called there to get the pic, but Ben already had a pic of MJ that he had photoshopped from Farrah. Ben is seen snapping the pic but used the photoshop pic instead because it had to be believeable.<br />So, to summerize. The ambulance pic was taken at an earlier date from Farrah and photoshopped with MJ. There was a person in the ambulance on 6/25, but it was not MJ, it was someone him and Murray was helping to take care of. Murray's behavior in court after reading the verdict just confirms that Michael is alive! <br />Sorry so long.<br />
Wow,dragon,this theory is exactly what i was thinking.The sick impersonator would explain why all those drugs were in the house.The oxygen chamber,and why no one was in a hurry to call 911.This patient was expected to die anyway,if he was terminally ill with cancer.This could also explain why no one was allowed in Michael's room.I never considered the idea about Farrah,but it makes a lot of sense.You r definitely right about Murrays behavior after the verdict was read,he did not seem to be concerned at all. I also believe that the corner was in on it. <br />
<br /><br />Let's not forget that when the emt came they said they saw a frail old man.. Michael didn't look frail neither old. So who was it??
I'm confused as to why people are still questioning the ambulance pic being taken on June 25, since TS cleared that up in his post saying "The ambulance photo needed to be staged in advance, because of the great difficulty in getting a good picture through the window "on the fly"; and if you missed the one chance, you would not get another."<br />Does that not clarify enough? <br />It is nearly impossible to capture that photo with the clarity it had; if it was taken on June 25. Much like the clear shot of the data info on the screen in the truck, the ambulance photo was created beforehand (and photoshopped), not only for the media; but for the hoax to serve as obvious clues. Knowing where the photo was taken, whether it was Michael or a dummy, is irrelevant in my opinion; because the fact is it was taken *before* June 25!<br />These facts alone prove Ben is in on it, especially given his statement that he saw the screen data info (through the window), and realized it was Michael in danger, so on spur of the moment managed to get prepared, and capture that great quality photo of Michael? Right.<br /><br /> As for the ambulance being there that day, it obviously was. If it wasn't, what did the media capture on camera leaving the residence and arriving to UCLA? Unless they (media) are all in on it (no), the scenario did play out that day for the media/public as to again; not raise suspicion.<br />Again, whether it was Michael, a dummy, a double or a corpse; the ambulance would have had to go through the actions for the public as I stated above.<br />
I agree with the no body argument. A real dead body raises too many legal, ethical, control, timing and isolation issues. A dead body involves more people because if the point of using a dead body is to trick people to believe they are dealing with Michael Jackson’s body, it won’t work. It won’t look like him (double or not), a driver’s license is not an acceptable form of ID – there would have been fingerprinting/DNA if there was a real body. No body on the other hand – yes, the paramedics, doctors, and coroner need to be in on it and produce the falsified documents and accounts of what happened. But having them in on it insures the script is followed, hence the no fingerprinting and using the driver license to ID the “body”. As well as the middle name discrepancies on the “legal” documents saying Michael Joseph Jackson is dead.<br /><br />The ambulance photo was taken the “other day” so that they could get the desired photo as it would be near impossible to get the money shot on the fly despite how slow the ambulance backed out of the driveway.<br /><br />I really like the idea of Michael being there every step of the way on June 25th. Literally right there in front of our eyes the whole time. Maybe he didn’t even leave Los Angeles – if an autopsy report, death certificate, police and ambulance reports, etc can be falsified, then a destination unknown lone flight record can also be faked, especially if there is FBI support in some form. A hoax of this magnitude needs certain people to pull it off but this hoax has it’s own cast and crew, much like a movie. Everyone has their confidentiality-contracted job to do. The ARG aspect absolves them of wrong doing and evolves with the hoax with the world's reactions. Plus it's obvious to those who are paying close attention. Which is wicked awesome for us.
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