I've done more thinking, just small little spurts while doing other things around the house. But here's my thought. TS wants us to consider the murder theory. OK, giving that a try. I for now am completely ignoring the Illuminati as the possible murderers or atleast the ones behind the one(s) who actually committed the murder. Who else would have motive? Putting aside the psychotic fans that every artist has of course. As someone has also mentioned Michael was constantly surrounded by others. Who would have been able to get close enough to do harm to him without causing a stir with all of the bodyguards, staff members, the cook oh and lets not forget the children? Let's say that Dr. M is the one who in fact killed Michael. From what we know Michael is the one who hired him. I can't remember the exact amount but wasn't the doc making a nice chunk of change working for Michael? Considering everything we've seen and heard (and that's all we have to go off of) the good ol' doc needed the money. Wouldn't Michael be more valuable to him alive? He surely isn't making hundreds of thousands of dollars now. Well, no I'll take that back, he's probably made more money in the last two years (and possibly longer) thru Michael for his part in the hoax. So who else is out there? Sony, because they want the catalog? When exactly did Michael join up with them? They had how many years to try to get the catalog by any means necessary? So why now? Just my thought here, if I were the top dog at Sony and I wanted to put a plot together to murder Michael so I could have the catalog, I would do it when he was down and out, when I knew he was at his weakest point; mentally and emotionally. I wouldn't wait until he's on top of his game again and getting ready to do shows at the O2 Center. *Side note- I think perhaps I should stop watching Law & Order*
I really am trying to comply with TS on this whole murder theory but I can't wrap my head around it. There is no way that it can be proven that the Illuminati did it (as I've said before if they do exist). So what would be the point in even investigating that route? How would we ever be proven wrong? Again, live I've said who is going to come out and say "I'm with the Illuminati and we did not kill Michael Jackson". The FBI? No, if we go by the 333 pages that they released of his file, they had no information on him and there would be no point. So, who are we left with and what motive would they have.
I really think that if we are suppose to consider the murder theory we should look elsewhere and not just concentrate on the Illuminati, we have to explore all possible people that we know were close to Michael or would have something to gain from his demise.
This has to be one of the most saddest and unnecessary threads I've ever read or participated in on this website. It's nothing against Souza, because I love her logic and writing style the most out of all participants, and I'm not kissing up. It's just fact. But I do wonder about what TS is about these days. What is the purpose really of this thread? Level X my hind parts. It sucks big toe nails. Not knocking the ones that delight in it at tall by the way. This is between me and TS.
MJ = LOVE period. He is a very Positive person as I believe I am. I say he's Brilliant, because of the Light he has always exuded. The word genius is thrown around too much for my taste. He is a Brilliant man that emits a lot of Light and always has. He is an Enlightened and Awakened individual.
The theme of today is Unity Consciousness. So how can discussing such a depressing and sad topic be helpful, beneficial or enlightening in the positive sense? It defeats the purpose of what Michael Jackson is all about. He is about love and unity - period.
Maybe it's me, but I think this topic stinks to depths of meaningless banter. I know, I don't have to read up, and believe me, I haven't read most posts at all, because it's so depressing to read such negative things.
I often wondered why some on here thinks that TMZ is only posting articles for us hoaxers. They have a much larger audience than the people on this board. They are posting many of these BS articles concerning Murray and other MJ related things just to mess with people. MJ wrote a song entitled Tabloids Junkie, because he was sick of how people would believe anything the lying tabloids and MSM told about him. It hurt him that many believed the lies its true - but with this hoax - and when it pertains to much of the news about this case (MJ's hoax), it's put out there as a documentation as to how easy some can be fooled, how gullible some are and how ignorant people are to believe anything that's in print without any investigation.
Again, this website and others like it is not why TMZ exists. It existed and had a large readership before 6-25-09. MJ is punking his haters, many in all areas and types of media - and the ones that rely on their governments or the lying and scheming media for truth.
In my opinion, TS is doing partly the same thing. I said a couple of weeks ago, that MJ wants for people interested in the hoax to prove why he is alive, not why and how he died. That defeats the purpose.
And TS, I do feel sorry for the Newbies. Many folks will run away from this website rather than embrace it. It's like now we want them to doubt us even further. We want them to think us crazy. I know I was getting a few recruits to wonder what if MJ is alive. Many of them were getting hopeful. Many still don't want to. Why? Why should it matter to anyone really?
I think it matters to a lot of people, because many of us always felt MJ's brilliance and radiance, and the love he had for humanity and his God. Many people loved his music, yes, but many more also loved his HEART. So how does it seem right to mess with the newbies to this website and to the idea that MJ is alive - for believe me, many want so desperately for it to be true. They may not understand it themselves, but they know that there was always something so special about the man. They now in retrospect realize that when they used to hear him speak from his heart more so than hear him sing (many already felt he sang like an angel since 5 or 6 years old), they were drawn to him.
These are the ones I feel sorry for. The ones that are new to the idea. Well I suppose, they may need to bypass this website, for they won't get any true feelings of convictions from most. They won't get any CORE BELIEFS from many. Many are wishy-washy, and therefore are not more of an inspiration than the ones that call MJ names, think he molested children - and last but not least, think he was a druggie. They would be wrong on all counts of course, but to believe that he is dead is to believe that he took this drug - PROP FOR FOOL - and demoral and other such drugs.
Some lose the plot every other day and forget that in all movies that are screened have to have a story to tell in the way the author envisions it. It has a beginning, middle and an ending.
Some say they can't be sure of this and that concerning this HOAX/ARG/DOCUMENTARY - let alone that the man is alive. Some of the older posters are still trying to figure out if he is alive? It is almost turning into some kind of draconian joke. And it's sad that it has come to this. Well I can be sure of this and that. No one could have had the BRILLIANCE to pull off a hoax that he has been planning for years but Michael Jackson. I've seen him alive in the flesh after 6-25-09 - and that's enough for me.
TS - You can take this level and either fill in the blank or get of the pot.
There are multiple possibilities as to why TS would post this thread. I hope my logic will now be my advantage to make you consider the options and see this as a positive thing, like I do.
First of all I want to say that TS did not ask us to prove the murder theory at all, he asked us to prove the hoax theory. I do see many people are coming up with possibilities for murder, but as I read it, that is not his intention.
It’s time to test what you have learned in the last two years. How solid is your hoax evidence? Is it irrefutable, or is it based on fantasy and imagination? No doubt more will turn against me at this level; but that’s okay, because I’m not here to win a popularity contest. For those who have read all of my previous posts, you will probably understand the purpose of this level; also, some things from previous levels may now become clear.
In this level, there is no limit on any particular category of discussion; you can bring any evidence you want, to support the hoax theory. And I will try to debunk it, and support the murder theory. You can also use my own previous hoax evidence, if you want.
1. See this as a study at University. Just a silly example: let's say you have studied genetics for 2 years and you have come to the conclusion that the parents of people with red hair both must have a gene for red hair. You have put 2 years of hard work into your investigation and your thesis is complete with evidence, lab results, you name it. You are confident of your investigation and results and will have to appear before a board to defend your conclusion and investigation. The board will let you explain your study, your results and then they will challenge you, EVEN if they know you are right. What if they will present you a different case? Father with genes for both brown and blond hair, mother with genes for blond and red, child has red hair? According to genetics, the child can have brown hair or blond hair, not red. Are you going to let your head hang and raise the white flag, or are you confident enough about your own investigation and challenge them back by at least asking them to provide proof that both the man and the woman are the biological parents of the child? In other words, even IF you are wrong about some details, or have missed some, do you trust your own judgement and are you confident enough that the research you have done was thorough enough to answer any question, whether with argumented speculation or solid facts. Do you really believe in what you are claiming, or are you just hoping to be right because you know you haven't researched enough to be sure. That is how I was taught at school, defend your claims, either by reasonable arguments that leave room for doubt, wheter it's true or not, or come with facts. So purpose # 1: it's educational. Who benefits: we, and with us our children who will later benefit from our skills.
2. Again the story about your genetics thesis and the challenge of the board. They TEST you. Are you strong enough to stand their test? Have you investigated enough to be challenged about your conlusion? Hardly anyone is always right about everything, because sources, even study books, may have errors in them since they are all written by people. By raising the white flag and saying 'I don't know', you will not graduate because they will say you haven't researched well enough to defend your thesis. Even if you do not know certain facts, can you use your common sense and the things you do know and come up with a theory build on good arguments? In other words: Do you believe in yourself? Purpose # 2 of this thread: test, do you think for yourself? Who benefits: we, and with us again our children.
3. Wether or not you like the subjects of the latest redirects, they have serious discussions in them, with many very good arguments defending the hoax theory. Yet people can say (and we know some people do) that MJ was murdered and that they want people to believe it's a hoax. Without debunking that, all the other discussions are worth nothing. So the ambulance pic is fake? So what? It's a cover-up for murder. So the FBI is in on it? So what, they are probably part of the murder plot. Etc. etc.. Purpose # 3: collect reasonable arguments to defend your hoax story even when people come up with the most difficult questions. No one can tell you that you are crazy if you can defend your story with arguments they can't debunk. Who benefits: we, we will make ourselves more believable and with us the non-believers that deep in their hearts hope that we are right. I have never convinced anyone with telling them MJ is alive because he was Dave on LKL, or because that 'old' man in Hollywood Tonight is very suspicious if you get what I mean.
4. Although you see it as negative, I see it as a possitive thread (that is if everyone would indeed defend the HOAX theory, instead of inventing murder plots). It's a chance to dig up all the investigations of the past 2 years and collect them in one thread. It was so much that most of us probably forget certain things. By summing them all up, we should all have 'aha!' moments and have our faith even more strengthened. TS is the one that pointed out very strong argumants in favor of the hoax and we know he does not REALLY support the murder theory, so why would we be afraid of his challenges? I am sure that if we all pay attention and work together, we will have his debunks debunked in a second, which is (in my honest opinion) his intention. So purpose # 4: cheering you up! If your faith is strong, if you have no doubt at all about MJ being alive, then no thread can change your mind, no matter how negative some may be.
5. See # 4: we are going to collect the investigation of 2 years in one thread. It is possible that by doing that, we might be able to see things we haven't seen before, to build a coherent theory. In other words, purpose # 5 is to connect the dots. Who benefits: we because the more dots we have connected, the more sleep we get which hopefully in my case will mean less grey hairs and the magical disappearance of the sacks under my eyes.
6. To find an answer for level 3, since we haven't reached a conclusion on that one. I have said before that I don't see TS answering on that one at all, because I do believe it is a sting and in that case, certainly when it's still on-going, no one is going to spill the beans on that one. But with debunking a murder theory and proving a hoax theory, we will have to look at the options for murder as well, to be able to debunk it. Who would want to kill MJ and why, might be the answer for level 3. So purpose # 6: find an answer to level 3. Who benefits: we, because it will help us even more to connect the dots.
7. It's TS and I am sure that he has another purpose with it. Maybe it's a numerological thing, maybe he is trying to prepare some members for what is still to come; Jackson family attacking the hoax even more (not just Jermaine) or the stuff coming up at the trial, if we make it to that. Either way, he probably will not explain it until 'the time is right', so that's pure speculation. Who benefits: who knows.
Anyways, i just gave you 7 reasonable arguments to defend my theory about this thread and it's purpose. I hope I have at least made you consider them. If you still think this thread is useless and sad, you are free to debunk my arguments. It's never a bad thing to debunk hoax clues either. There are hundreds of theories floating around, and they can't all be true. By debunking we will eventually find the truth, because that what is left that can't be debunked, must be the truth.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
There are so many things... remind Pedro Lopez<br /><br />Tuesday, June 22, 2010Peter Lopez: Suicide or Murder? <br /><br /><br />
In November of 2009, Evan Chandler, the father of Jordan Chandler who accused Michael Jackson of child molestation, apparently committed suicide. Chandler died of a single and apparently self-inflicted gun shot to the head. In December of 2009, Arnold Klein's ex-employee of three years, Bruce Ayers, was found dead on a sidewalk in Los Angeles. Ayers knew Michael Jackson. So when Peter Lopez, a well respected and much liked attorney, who happened to work for Michael Jackson, committed suicide in May of 2010, a chill went down my spine. Why would this successful entertainment lawyer, who seemingly had it all (wife, kids, successful career, friends) go into his backyard and kill himself? The thought of his suicide was bad enough, but with three deaths of people connected to Michael Jackson within a six month period, I began to think this was not a coincidence. Perhaps, Peter Lopez had been murdered. <br /><br /><br />My suspicions were piqued when I read that NO ONE, not his mother nor his family and friends, saw any sign that Peter Lopez would commit suicide. Reports surfaced that said Lopez seemed slightly stressed, but not one sign that one morning, he would drop his two small daughters at school, return home, and shoot himself to death. And so, the digging began. I should say that there is VERY LITTLE information to find about one Peter M. Lopez, attorney at law. When I started reading, there was page after page after page of the same quote from Raymone Bain: that she hired Lopez when Jackson was reorganizing his finances in 2006, and how shocked she was, and that he was the nicest person in the entertainment field. <br /><br /><br />Other information on the internet states that Peter Lopez headed a division of Jackson's called MJJ Kingdom. Antennae on blogger go through the roof. MJJ KINGDOM? MJJ Kingdom is a subsidiary of Kingdom Entertainment, a joint venture between Michael Jackson and Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal of Saudi Arabia. Alwaleed is one of the richest men on the planet. He is usually listed on the Forbes 400 Richest Men in the World, at least in the top twenty. Alwaleed is currently worth in the vicinity of $20 billion dollars. (Contrast this to Tom Barrack who at the bottom of the list with a net worth of a mere (LOL) $1 billion.) In addition, Alwaleed invests heavily in the media. For example, Alwaleed owns a substantial share of News Corp., which just happens to own the NEW YORK POST, where Andrea Peyser wrote her horrid article "Freak of the Week". Coincidence or CONVENIENCE, people??? <br /><br /><br />With regard to public documents, the California State Bar Association lists Peter Lopez as bar #61941, but will not release any information because he deceased. MJJ Kingdom is listed in both California and Delaware without any incident. However, in Delaware, MJJ Kingdom document is below:<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> I hope you are able to read these, because the Delaware Recorder requires that a person pay for this. In the first screen shot, it states that the agent RESIGNED on 2/18/2010. Does this mean that Peter Lopez resigned from this Jackson subsidiary in February, only three months before his "suicide"? This scenario is one side of the Lopez coin.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />The other side is that Lopez was conveniently/coincidentally hired TO REPLACE JOHN BRANCA. MJJ Timeline states that on August 7, 2006, Raymone Bain stated that "in what could be one of the biggest conspiracies in the entertainment industry, documents have been sent to Michael Jackson, and his representatives, which reveal a deliberate plan by some former attorneys as well as associates and advisors, to force Jackson into involuntary bankruptcy. The documents reveal that FORMER ATTORNEYS actively solicited other attorneys, vendors and creditors to 'join in a petition to place the client in involuntary bankruptcy.' ...Based on the timing of the events that have impacted his personal and professional life in recent years, he has long been suspicious that some of them that he entrusted to act on his behalf, and to advise him with respect to his personal and business affairs, may not have always acted in his best interests."<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />We have all heard that John Branca was fired by Michael Jackson in 2006. Although Branca stated that he left because Michael was surrounded by people who he did not care for or trust, the fact is that that Michael Jackson fired Branca and wrote him a letter demanding that he return all documents that pertained to Jackson. Jackson's letter was dated in 2003. Did Jackson finally have the evidence against John Branca that he needed? And to be sure, Lopez was aware of all that was going on regarding Michael Jackson, whether it was Alwaleed, Branca or other seedy characters that surrounded him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />The real question here is: Did Peter Lopez fall silent of his own doing or did someone feel the need to do it for him? Listen to that 911 tape, and you tell me. Below is a link to the video of Peter Lopez, in which he says that the Michael Jackson investigation was to be solved "very soon" from August of 2009.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><!-- m -->http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz0L0tzfC5E<!-- m --><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />What did he know???? To be continued......RIP Peter Lopez...I hope you and Michael are together and having a wonderful time. <br /><br /><br /><br />
<br /> In other words, purpose # 5 is to connect the dots. Who benefits: we because the more dots we have connected, the more sleep we get which hopefully in my case will mean less grey hairs and the magical disappearance of the sacks under my eyes.<br />
<br /><br /> <!-- s --><!-- s --> I can carry groceries in my bags <!-- s --><!-- s --> <br /><br />Great post Souza!<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. Always.
The lack of media info and blanket of silence around the Peter Lopez suicide seems to point us in the direction of sting court as opposed to hoax court. Thanks for this reminder Paula.
<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Iluminatti is very broad, I found an organization is in Spanish but I translate what interests us. <br />religious sector: <br />World Council of Churches <br />National Council of Churches <br />World Parliament of Religions <br />Vatican / Jesuits, Franciscans, Freemasons <br />Christianity <br />groups and cults metaphysical new age (connie mendez, Alice Bailey, Helena Blavatsky Petrova, URI GELLER) <br />liberal Protestant denominations <br />Unitarian churches / university <br />Temple of Understanding <br />witnesses of Jehovah in drag <br />charles russell <br />Light of the World <br />Spiritualists <br />Evangelists <br />Hindu <br />Buddhist <br />-Banking sector and economic <br />among others, transnational corporations <br />valmart <br />gillete <br />Proter and gamble <br />G & E <br />philips <br />coca cola <br />chrysler <br />microsoft <br />SONY .. <br />sector "education" <br />in this sector are the mass media
<br /><br />did someone say something about dust settling? only to stir it up again. <!-- smichael-jackson/ -->michael-jackson/<!-- smichael-jackson/ -->
3. Wether or not you like the subjects of the latest redirects, they have serious discussions in them, with many very good arguments defending the hoax theory. Yet people can say (and we know some people do) that MJ was murdered and that they want people to believe it's a hoax. Without debunking that, all the other discussions are worth nothing. So the ambulance pic is fake? So what? It's a cover-up for murder. So the FBI is in on it? So what, they are probably part of the murder plot. Etc. etc.. Purpose # 3: collect reasonable arguments to defend your hoax story even when people come up with the most difficult questions. No one can tell you that you are crazy if you can defend your story with arguments they can't debunk. Who benefits: we, we will make ourselves more believable and with us the non-believers that deep in their hearts hope that we are right. I have never convinced anyone with telling them MJ is alive because he was Dave on LKL, or because that 'old' man in Hollywood Tonight is very suspicious if you get what I mean.
You're right Souza, this will be a very valuable resource to us in the very near future... and logically I understand what TS is doing here, thanks for putting it in print, we all needed that...
...because, peacock is right-o about much of what s/he wrote, especially this part:
Some lose the plot every other day and forget that in all movies that are screened have to have a story to tell in the way the author envisions it. It has a beginning, middle and an ending.
Some say they can't be sure of this and that concerning this HOAX/ARG/DOCUMENTARY - let alone that the man is alive. Some of the older posters are still trying to figure out if he is alive? It is almost turning into some kind of draconian joke.
I have read some people here starting to DOUBT and possibly join TS in defending the murder theory...
<!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> <!-- s:evil: -->:evil:<!-- s:evil: --> <!-- scrash/ -->crash/<!-- scrash/ --> you have got to be kidding me. Wrong board in my opinion and at the very least WRONG THREAD.
question has it been only fans who think there was a murder providing "evidence" of a murder? the family has really not said anything that you could say is evidence have they? so the murder theory people are not really operating with anything more than we have are they? it seems like what came out in court would only ad more confusion to the mix if you thought you had a murder senerio all figured out wouldn't it? i don't know if i am expressing what i want to ask very well.
TS you took Jermaine's side but you didn't give a murder theory with arguments. I am sure if you set your mind on it you can prove and convince us Michael was murdered and not by accident.
Is it possible that there were no threats to his life and he invented it all to be in the public attention?!
6. To find an answer for level 3, since we haven't reached a conclusion on that one. I have said before that I don't see TS answering on that one at all, because I do believe it is a sting and in that case, certainly when it's still on-going, no one is going to spill the beans on that one. But with debunking a murder theory and proving a hoax theory, we will have to look at the options for murder as well, to be able to debunk it. Who would want to kill MJ and why, might be the answer for level 3. So purpose # 6: find an answer to level 3. Who benefits: we, because it will help us even more to connect the dots.
Souza, thanks, that was a wonderfully logical, well thought out post. <!-- srespect/ -->respect/<!-- srespect/ -->
Just one query - I don't want to sound picky, but I want to be sure - did you intend to refer to 'level 3' in point 6 above, which was the 'what, if anything, went in the ambulance to hospital' level? Or did you mean 'level 4' which was about 'sting/hoax court'?
question has it been only fans who think there was a murder providing "evidence" of a murder? the family has really not said anything that you could say is evidence have they? so the murder theory people are not really operating with anything more than we have are they? it seems like what came out in court would only ad more confusion to the mix if you thought you had a murder senerio all figured out wouldn't it? i don't know if i am expressing what i want to ask very well.
Suspicious - I got what you were asking. A helleva lot of proof would have to be given if anyone is willing to go into the murder theory. Atleast I think that's what your saying anyway.
3. Wether or not you like the subjects of the latest redirects, they have serious discussions in them, with many very good arguments defending the hoax theory. Yet people can say (and we know some people do) that MJ was murdered and that they want people to believe it's a hoax. Without debunking that, all the other discussions are worth nothing. So the ambulance pic is fake? So what? It's a cover-up for murder. So the FBI is in on it? So what, they are probably part of the murder plot. Etc. etc.. Purpose # 3: collect reasonable arguments to defend your hoax story even when people come up with the most difficult questions. No one can tell you that you are crazy if you can defend your story with arguments they can't debunk. Who benefits: we, we will make ourselves more believable and with us the non-believers that deep in their hearts hope that we are right. I have never convinced anyone with telling them MJ is alive because he was Dave on LKL, or because that 'old' man in Hollywood Tonight is very suspicious if you get what I mean.
And therein lies a big part of the problem I think. There is no single piece of 'evidence' that is convincing on it's own. It's only the accumulation of many, many 'strange' bits and pieces that build up the hoax theory.
I take your point Souza, that most have been concocting murder theories of their own on this thread, rather than bringing evidence to support their hoax theories. I doubt TS will post again here until we come up with something he can try to debunk!
I doubt anyone has the time to do the whole lot <!-- safraid/ -->afraid/<!-- safraid/ --> so what if I suggest I start the ball rolling and we all add just one piece of the puzzle.
Ok here goes:
Just because it's the first thing that came into my mind:
No RIP in TII - furthermore no mention in the text or speech in the film, of MJ having died. I expected a RIP out of respect. It's absence leaves the film as a legitimate piece of work for ever (i.e. even after his hoax is revealed).
I wondered about the use of the term 'Michael Jackson's Estate' in the credits but discovered 'estate' does not only apply after death:
"An estate is the net worth of a person at any point in time. It is the sum of a person's assets - legal rights, interests and entitlements to property of any kind - less all liabilities at that time. The issue is of special legal significance on a question of bankruptcy and death of the person."
Scorpionchik wrote: Do, don't take personal. I am just analysing the article. First I want to clear up that I do not care who TS is.
To me he/she is not more than any other member here with mistakes & uncertainty in its theories as we all have.
I participate in analysys/consideration of cons and pros of hoax and murder theories as everyone else for myself and all fellow members & guests, not because I follow levels. We all want the truth. To be honest, this article seems total nonsense to me as I already commented about contradictions of the story above. Finally, as long as Michael is alive, I don't care what is behind, we will figure THAT out later. Because whoever does whatever, there is no 100% guarantee in the success and goal achievement anyway. Then question arises, is it worth it?
Hi Scorpionchik, after a good night sleep I have to say to you that you are absolutely right. I guess I was in a negative mood last night <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: --> Like I said in my post, I don't believe in those stories, but was trying to look at it from a different angle. What was I thinking to waver from my believe???!!! Everything what is happening during this years, certainly happens with/for a reason, so I'll stick with you guys, we DO NOT give up, THIS IS A HOAX!!
About TS, I haven't read all of his/her posts so I'm more of a bystander, and that's why I sometimes wonder who he/she really is. To me, he/she is certainly more than any other member, because he/she has a lot of followers (and no other member on this board has 'followers' mmmmm, OK not true, there is also a front/back and others that were kicked out eventually) and I feel that TS kind of 'leads the pact', people are really elated with another redirect or update. TS is the one that members intensively want to follow and TS' posts are intensively read, and that's why I wonder sometimes about his/her identity. I don't want my fellowmembers and myself to be mislead (that happened before), so maybe that's why I'm not an avid reader of his/her posts, I want to stay objective. If TS' intentions are good (and I kind of believe they are) than I would like to have a little more proof about what he/she is from Michael (relative, friend etc.) I know it's difficult to prove on the internet, but come on TS, you can give it a try!!
TS --I am going to take sides with Jermaine—and say that there is no hoax, MJ is really dead.
So it’s going to be like we are talking to Jermaine, who is going to constantly confirm that MJ is dead and that hoaxers should accept it. <!-- sfresse/ -->fresse/<!-- sfresse/ -->
TS --However, what if I say that the Illuminati found out about his hoax plans, and killed him according to the exact timing that he had planned? Can you debunk this? Did the Illuminati outthink him, or did he outthink the Illuminati? That is the main question of this level.
Since so much information about MJ’s “murder” and also MJ’s “death hoax” is openly available on the internet, there is no way that the Illuminati could be in ignorance or fooled. If there is some way that MJ has outthought them, we would not know about it, and there would certainly be no leaks or “slip-ups” or clues given by family or TMZ, etc. So if Jermaine is trying to convince them MJ is dead, does he think his slip-ups would go unnoticed? I mean this sounds like a scary deadly game to be playing if it’s for real. If it was my sister or brother’s life I was defending by lies you can be sure I would be very serious, scared, and careful about every word. MJ’s speech in 2002 about Matolla and Sony where he says he would/has out-thought them, is also freely available on the internet for them to watch. Should that not be in some top-secret classified MJ file. It’s basically a taunt/challenge for them to try to out-think him back. And here we find that TS is again getting our focus on how MJ out-smarted them, when we know full well there are dozens of visitors here every day, some of who could be them.
Curls, you are suggesting we start another list of reasons we believe MJ’s alive, for the umpteenth time and thread. Hasn’t TS perused some of those threads. I know repetition is a good teaching tool but…
Curls --And therein lies a big part of the problem I think. There is no single piece of 'evidence' that is convincing on it's own. It's only the accumulation of many, many 'strange' bits and pieces that build up the hoax theory.
None of this would stand up in a court of law as evidence. Souza has done a wonderful job cataloguing and organizing these lists. Could there be something different that TS wants from us? <!-- styping/ -->typing/<!-- styping/ --> <!-- sbounce/ -->bounce/<!-- sbounce/ -->
TS --In this level, there is no limit on any particular category of discussion; you can bring any evidence you want, to support the hoax theory. And I will try to debunk it, and support the murder theory. You can also use my own previous hoax evidence, if you want.
So if TS is going to try to debunk all the thousands of bits of “evidence” (just looking at Souza’s list) this is going to be a long thread (compete with the Visions thread in number of pages). <!-- serrrr -->errrr<!-- serrrr -->
When my family asks me why I think he’s alive, I simply say because of the hundreds/thousands of clues, oddities, slip-ups, things MJ as said in his lyrics, and interviews and on and on. I say, let me show you just a couple of examples. Then they usually say, well that’s just a coincidence and could be this and this, and then they loose interest and don’t want to hear any more. Then they start saying what they think and it’s always things they’ve heard in the media. So it just goes no where every time. <!-- sargue/ -->argue/<!-- sargue/ -->
Also this level topic is too broad. The other 4 levels were all very specific focused on one small aspect of the hoax, and in fact people complained that it was too focused such as on the leaf pattern. <!-- s --><!-- s -->
There is one fact that I shared with someone at work that really got her attention and almost instantly thinking there might be something to the hoax. That is that there were exactly 9282 days between Michael Jackson's birth in August 29, 1958, to the Pepsi incident on January 27, 1984, and exactly 9282 days between that event and June 25, 2009. And each of these sides add to 21, which is 777. I even counted them myself to make sure. (It's pretty solid unless MJ birthday is false/created.) <!-- smj_bad/ -->mj_bad/<!-- smj_bad/ --> How will "Jermaine" debunk that? <!-- srespect/ -->respect/<!-- srespect/ -->
The TS post's are a not so easy for me because i don't understand all of it...can someone give me a clue to a good translater ?
I have some thoughts...
If Michael was murdered by someone, the funeral would be in a logical believable way...no clues at all. No doubts.
He was dead and all was understandable.
BUT from the first day on there are clues...everyone who think a little bit would see that there is something weird going on !
If that was the begining of a sting operation, Michael and the team around the hoax wanted that ????????? began surching after him. They want that Michael will be surched. It's very dangerous if it's so, but that was the only reason for all this clues. They wait that ?????? makes mistakes and they can catch ???????
Too much contradictions.
Remember the coroner who wrapped the fingerprints from the coroner van. The whole helicopter flight....i think on a different day, not the 25.06. !
Nothing of that was a normal procedure.
A blind man saw that there was something wrong ! Why shoud they do that when they have fear that someone kills Michael ? When he have to save his life with a hoax ? He would do it with a believeable hoax, not in that way !
LAPD Chief Bratton, knows Thomas Mesereoux, quiet his job after the funeral and go to a private security....coincidence ?
Someone said there are security guards at Neverland with bulletproof jacket....for what ?
I don't know the US legal system, but i looks like they protect Michael and his family.
So far i know are the kids always in the US...where they could be protect. No vacation outsite the US.
They leave Hayvenhurst and they can be everywhere. The pics are looking staged.
But who is ?????
Warner Bros. could be in the hoax with TMZ. Sony with the missing RIP in TII.
The Music Industrie against Illuminati ?
Can me it's all stupid thoughts....i no nothing about the music industrie and there rules and nothing about the legal system in the US and we will never know realy the backgrounds.
Annother weird point.
Janet was in Germany, in Berlin last week. She was some days here with 30 men , much bodyguards for one concert with 3000 visitors. She needs much protection ! Why ? How much money can you deserve from 3000 fans in one week with 30 men in a first class hotel ? Not that much...
The family seams to be extrem protected and there must be a serious reason.
I hope that everything will have a happy end and all are save ! God bless you ! ILYM !
Great post Souza, but I think some are still missing my point. It is that TS is not helping the ones that hope MJ is alive. What some have posted here has already been posted over and over. There have been people trying to tie this thing into the murder theory from the beginning. Some truly believe it is a possiblity. I don't, so I won't discuss it. I never have. It's not positive - and that is what I'm about. I've only tried to remind some of this or that as it pertains to why I KNOW that MJ is alive.
OK, look at it like this. Someone already said that this thread will go to thirty pages. After that, where will we be? Seriously. Some have already pointed out that they have no proof of this or that. And guess what, the proof won't come from this board. They won't be consulting anyone on this board, so how can anyone going back and forth (and that is exactly what is happening) in this thread will help anything? Again, I do understand what you posted Souza. It is very thought provoking, but all it does in the long run is to keep people adding and piling onto what has already been speculated about.
There may be a court date, but it will be a hoax court day. Some think MJ will BAM this year, and he might but he will BAM by next year if not. I truly and strongly believe that. To me, this is where the main focus should be. I don't mean when. I mean how and why he took such a drastic and sad way to do it. Yes, it was sad to hear that he may have passed, but to me ever since I felt that he could have pulled this off - and when I finally truly believed in my heart that he did. I was elated and stayed positive. I never faltered. I think we should be concentrating on the postitive. Because if we go this route concentrating on the negative, the door is going to be left closed on all of the awakening messages that I'm sure MJ wants people to look forward to. We should still be rejoicing every chance we get that MJ is alive and is well, and not delighting in the fact that we proved it (which we truly can't to most). We should be able to feel that his life is not in danger - and that he is documenting his story/expose in the way he feels is best.
It is what it is, And we'll NEVER know why MJ did this totally. It is enough for me just to know that he did it. No one murdered MJ or tried to kill him leading up to 6-25-09. He will epose what and who he wants to with this hoax. He still show that at one point there were ones trying to drive him insane, drug him, mind control him, et al, but he out thought them, sought protection from God, and is living to tell his story and to continue sharing all of his gifts. Now to me that's a big part of the BAM. He has already BAMMED in that regard.
I'm just glad he is happy. He's Awakened to full consciousness and he wants us all to join him in my estimation. How can we do that with a dead corpse? Because no matter in the way one might cross your t's and dot your i's, the ones new to the idea will be still be "stuck in the middle", in 3-D. I think MJ = HOPE and UNITY. I bet for the next show he does with his brother, it will be titled UNITY.
Curls, you are suggesting we start another list of reasons we believe MJ’s alive, for the umpteenth time and thread. Hasn’t TS perused some of those threads. I know repetition is a good teaching tool but…
TS --In this level, there is no limit on any particular category of discussion; you can bring any evidence you want, to support the hoax theory. And I will try to debunk it, and support the murder theory. You can also use my own previous hoax evidence, if you want.
So if TS is going to try to debunk all the thousands of bits of “evidence” (just looking at Souza’s list) this is going to be a long thread. <!-- serrrr -->errrr<!-- serrrr -->
There is one fact that I shared with someone at work that really got her attention and almost instantly thinking there might be something to the hoax. That is that there were exactly 9282 days between Michael Jackson's birth in August 29, 1958, to the Pepsi incident on January 27, 1984, and exactly 9282 days between that event and June 25, 2009. And each of these sides add to 21, which is 777. I even counted them myself to make sure. (It's pretty solid unless MJ birthday is false/created.) <!-- smj_bad/ -->mj_bad/<!-- smj_bad/ --> How will "Jermaine" debunk that? <!-- srespect/ -->respect/<!-- srespect/ -->
@MJonmind, well, what I put in bold; that's his problem isn't it?!! <!-- safraid/ -->afraid/<!-- safraid/ -->
My suggestion was merely an attempt to follow what TS asked us to do in this thread: "you can bring any evidence you want, to support the hoax theory. And I will try to debunk it, and support the murder theory".
I can see this could be a way of weeding out the less convincing/false bits and leaving only the solid 'facts' (if such things exist!).
I think Michael was in danger, my post have been as a way of presenting the possible identity of this danger, I still believe that Michael is vivo. Well, TS to convince me otherwise <!-- s --><!-- s -->
independently of the opinion that some people may have of Pearl Jr, I think this an important test of the hoax <br />(Not sure if someone already public)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... WNDZmyluX8
"If someone wanted MJ dead, they picked one hell of a time to do it! why not sooner, why not later after the concerts when he had more money to take?"
I have thought this for a very long time..very good point Moon! The timing is all off for a murder theory. Seems like much of this hoax is centered around timing to begin with. I can see where the average person would not blink at reports of a frail, drug-dependent MJ meeting his demise at the hands of "personal doctor". It's the perfect setting for the masses to believe. However, upon a closer look things don't add up. That is where we come in....hoaxies, hoaxers, hoax family...whatever we are....we are it. The timing is, in fact, the key to it all. If someone was out to get MIchael, I would think sometime before the O2 announcement would have been the best choice. He was basically out of the spotlight. The public would have just seen it has another, "poor Michael" story. They could probably could have pulled off without much questioning....look at Lady Di. Do you truly think she was in an accident at the hands of a drunk driver? If this was murder, I would think the timing would be different....probably before the O2 announcement.
If someone found out about the hoax plans, perhaps they could pull off the actual timing of the demise itself. However, there are numerous things dealing with dates, times, references that nobody could put into place but MJ himself. Signing the will exactly 7 years to the date of the memorial. Who would know? Lawyers...yes. But they wouldn't necessarily know all the other numerology associated with this. I am interested in thinking about how Michael kept track (is keeping track) of everything. Surely he couldn't use a computer....a hack would be too dangerous. Handwritten notes could be stolen. How is he keeping it all straight? Was TMZ brought in early to help navigate the flow of information/clues? How are they being communicated with? If Michael is behind it all...which I think he is.....he must be well covered through a maze of information. I don't see Harvey getting a text saying, "...run "X" story with these capital letters......"
Also, what is up with the fake $1,000,000 bill? Why post that TS? Are we looking for some deep meaning around the bill....I don't think so. However, TS you have proven you don't post things just for the heck of it.
-Whitney Houston had a song called Million Dollar Bill (generally about love and how you feel about it....catchy, I give it an 8.5, good to dance to!).
-The currency is obviously fake....like this death? Like the hoax? Like what?
-There are lots of interesting illuminati/freemason signs on the U.S. bill....maybe a reference to that?
- Did you really just post a picture of it for the sake of saying, "that's the multi-million dollar question" ?
From TS Update #4d:
"Now get ready for the murder-theory destroying question: if they planned a murder to look like a hoax, what is the likelihood that they could succeed in convincing the family that MJ faked his death???????"
Michael has stated more than once, "....family comes first...." I truly do not believe the family would do any harm to Michael....never in a "million" years. Whoever would have planned this, "murder" could never convince the family of a hoaxed death. So we are left with just that....a hoax-looking murder of a theory.
TS asked how solid our hoax evidence is. It's solid enough to keep going. Otherwise, we would have given up a long time ago. The numerology is a strong contender for belief. Take a look at TS's $999 Reward:
I said earlier: timing is everything. The numbers don't lie..they are in black and white. The slip-up clues, like Jermaine's famous airport slip.....could just be an unintentional goof up. The paintings, the posters, the flowers...all could be taken as fantasy-minded thought. However, numbers that add up the same way each time......no breaking that. How do you explain them......all coincidences? Even those who say coincidences exist have to wonder about this many. Nobody, dies with THIS MANY coincidences....not even dear MJ. If it was murder, it was, "murder by numbers". The illuminati couldn't have dreamt this up if they tried.
So, TS...stay on the side of Jermaine for awhile. There is no hoax, MJ is really, "you know what". You can cry murder all you want. I don't believe it. When you are done crying, come back for a hug! Nothin' but love TS......
I started this post a few days ago, lol. Sometimes the words just don't flow out as fast as I'd like!
Blessings to you all!
I think there could have been an attempted murder and hopefully they foiled the plan.
The more I think of that and what Jermaine has said so far, the more I think the Sheikhs etc were behind it.
[highlight=#ff4080:2sa6oqcz]Brother Jermaine says that “if Michael would have embraced Islam he would still be here today,”[/highlight:2sa6oqcz]
That to me is a big clue. For me it is a very veiled indirect statement of who could be involved. Maybe there was a real terrorist threat, and yes the bigger Michael got, the bigger target he would become. We all know how he narrowly missed it in 2001, could he have narrowly missed it in 2009 too?
independently of the opinion that some people may have of Pearl Jr, I think this an important test of the hoax
(Not sure if someone already public)
[BBvideo 425,350:2jiiu37e]
I saw this on the other site, and since I haven't followed the thread on her, I had a question that no one has responded to on the other thread. Has she ever given credit to every other hoax member that's out here? I know that she didn't come up with all of that on her own (just from what I saw on this video). The whole Cris Angel thing? Members talked about that from the very beginning. Way before she came along.
Totally off topic I just thought I'd ask, if anyone can answer.
"If someone wanted MJ dead, they picked one hell of a time to do it! why not sooner, why not later after the concerts when he had more money to take?"
I have thought this for a very long time..very good point Moon! The timing is all off for a murder theory. Seems like much of this hoax is centered around timing to begin with. I can see where the average person would not blink at reports of a frail, drug-dependent MJ meeting his demise at the hands of "personal doctor". It's the perfect setting for the masses to believe. However, upon a closer look things don't add up. That is where we come in....hoaxies, hoaxers, hoax family...whatever we are....we are it. The timing is, in fact, the key to it all. If someone was out to get MIchael, I would think sometime before the O2 announcement would have been the best choice. He was basically out of the spotlight. The public would have just seen it has another, "poor Michael" story. They could probably could have pulled off without much questioning....look at Lady Di. Do you truly think she was in an accident at the hands of a drunk driver? If this was murder, I would think the timing would be different....probably before the O2 announcement.
If someone found out about the hoax plans, perhaps they could pull off the actual timing of the demise itself. However, there are numerous things dealing with dates, times, references that nobody could put into place but MJ himself. Signing the will exactly 7 years to the date of the memorial. Who would know? Lawyers...yes. But they wouldn't necessarily know all the other numerology associated with this. I am interested in thinking about how Michael kept track (is keeping track) of everything. Surely he couldn't use a computer....a hack would be too dangerous. Handwritten notes could be stolen. How is he keeping it all straight? Was TMZ brought in early to help navigate the flow of information/clues? How are they being communicated with? If Michael is behind it all...which I think he is.....he must be well covered through a maze of information. I don't see Harvey getting a text saying, "...run "X" story with these capital letters......"
Also, what is up with the fake $1,000,000 bill? Why post that TS? Are we looking for some deep meaning around the bill....I don't think so. However, TS you have proven you don't post things just for the heck of it.
-Whitney Houston had a song called Million Dollar Bill (generally about love and how you feel about it....catchy, I give it an 8.5, good to dance to!).
-The currency is obviously fake....like this death? Like the hoax? Like what?
-There are lots of interesting illuminati/freemason signs on the U.S. bill....maybe a reference to that?
- Did you really just post a picture of it for the sake of saying, "that's the multi-million dollar question" ?
From TS Update #4d:
"Now get ready for the murder-theory destroying question: if they planned a murder to look like a hoax, what is the likelihood that they could succeed in convincing the family that MJ faked his death???????"
Michael has stated more than once, "....family comes first...." I truly do not believe the family would do any harm to Michael....never in a "million" years. Whoever would have planned this, "murder" could never convince the family of a hoaxed death. So we are left with just that....a hoax-looking murder of a theory.
TS asked how solid our hoax evidence is. It's solid enough to keep going. Otherwise, we would have given up a long time ago. The numerology is a strong contender for belief. Take a look at TS's $999 Reward:
I said earlier: timing is everything. The numbers don't lie..they are in black and white. The slip-up clues, like Jermaine's famous airport slip.....could just be an unintentional goof up. The paintings, the posters, the flowers...all could be taken as fantasy-minded thought. However, numbers that add up the same way each time......no breaking that. How do you explain them......all coincidences? Even those who say coincidences exist have to wonder about this many. Nobody, dies with THIS MANY coincidences....not even dear MJ. If it was murder, it was, "murder by numbers". The illuminati couldn't have dreamt this up if they tried.
So, TS...stay on the side of Jermaine for awhile. There is no hoax, MJ is really, "you know what". You can cry murder all you want. I don't believe it. When you are done crying, come back for a hug! Nothin' but love TS......
I started this post a few days ago, lol. Sometimes the words just don't flow out as fast as I'd like!
Blessings to you all!
I have to agree with you! I've tried saying the same thing but my way with words come and go. Not only that but I have only been able to read for literally MONTHS so now I'm trying to get back into actually interacting with everyone again. Anyway....
I have to agree with you about the timing and briefly touched on it in one of my post. I also think that if there were a murder in the making it would make more sense to follow through with it when Michael wasn't in the spotlight.
Just came in to say hi, as I don't feel like I have something important to say on this topic. Collections of clues - we had before.
I wish I could "squeeze" the truth out of that Dave Dave <!-- s:evil: -->:evil:<!-- s:evil: --> ....and all my questions would be answered <!-- sbow/ -->bow/<!-- sbow/ -->
Michael ...where are you <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( --> ?
Comments
I really am trying to comply with TS on this whole murder theory but I can't wrap my head around it. There is no way that it can be proven that the Illuminati did it (as I've said before if they do exist). So what would be the point in even investigating that route? How would we ever be proven wrong? Again, live I've said who is going to come out and say "I'm with the Illuminati and we did not kill Michael Jackson". The FBI? No, if we go by the 333 pages that they released of his file, they had no information on him and there would be no point. So, who are we left with and what motive would they have.
I really think that if we are suppose to consider the murder theory we should look elsewhere and not just concentrate on the Illuminati, we have to explore all possible people that we know were close to Michael or would have something to gain from his demise.
There are multiple possibilities as to why TS would post this thread. I hope my logic will now be my advantage to make you consider the options and see this as a positive thing, like I do.
First of all I want to say that TS did not ask us to prove the murder theory at all, he asked us to prove the hoax theory. I do see many people are coming up with possibilities for murder, but as I read it, that is not his intention.
1. See this as a study at University. Just a silly example: let's say you have studied genetics for 2 years and you have come to the conclusion that the parents of people with red hair both must have a gene for red hair. You have put 2 years of hard work into your investigation and your thesis is complete with evidence, lab results, you name it. You are confident of your investigation and results and will have to appear before a board to defend your conclusion and investigation. The board will let you explain your study, your results and then they will challenge you, EVEN if they know you are right. What if they will present you a different case? Father with genes for both brown and blond hair, mother with genes for blond and red, child has red hair? According to genetics, the child can have brown hair or blond hair, not red. Are you going to let your head hang and raise the white flag, or are you confident enough about your own investigation and challenge them back by at least asking them to provide proof that both the man and the woman are the biological parents of the child? In other words, even IF you are wrong about some details, or have missed some, do you trust your own judgement and are you confident enough that the research you have done was thorough enough to answer any question, whether with argumented speculation or solid facts. Do you really believe in what you are claiming, or are you just hoping to be right because you know you haven't researched enough to be sure. That is how I was taught at school, defend your claims, either by reasonable arguments that leave room for doubt, wheter it's true or not, or come with facts. So purpose # 1: it's educational. Who benefits: we, and with us our children who will later benefit from our skills.
2. Again the story about your genetics thesis and the challenge of the board. They TEST you. Are you strong enough to stand their test? Have you investigated enough to be challenged about your conlusion? Hardly anyone is always right about everything, because sources, even study books, may have errors in them since they are all written by people. By raising the white flag and saying 'I don't know', you will not graduate because they will say you haven't researched well enough to defend your thesis. Even if you do not know certain facts, can you use your common sense and the things you do know and come up with a theory build on good arguments? In other words: Do you believe in yourself? Purpose # 2 of this thread: test, do you think for yourself? Who benefits: we, and with us again our children.
3. Wether or not you like the subjects of the latest redirects, they have serious discussions in them, with many very good arguments defending the hoax theory. Yet people can say (and we know some people do) that MJ was murdered and that they want people to believe it's a hoax. Without debunking that, all the other discussions are worth nothing. So the ambulance pic is fake? So what? It's a cover-up for murder. So the FBI is in on it? So what, they are probably part of the murder plot. Etc. etc.. Purpose # 3: collect reasonable arguments to defend your hoax story even when people come up with the most difficult questions. No one can tell you that you are crazy if you can defend your story with arguments they can't debunk. Who benefits: we, we will make ourselves more believable and with us the non-believers that deep in their hearts hope that we are right. I have never convinced anyone with telling them MJ is alive because he was Dave on LKL, or because that 'old' man in Hollywood Tonight is very suspicious if you get what I mean.
4. Although you see it as negative, I see it as a possitive thread (that is if everyone would indeed defend the HOAX theory, instead of inventing murder plots). It's a chance to dig up all the investigations of the past 2 years and collect them in one thread. It was so much that most of us probably forget certain things. By summing them all up, we should all have 'aha!' moments and have our faith even more strengthened. TS is the one that pointed out very strong argumants in favor of the hoax and we know he does not REALLY support the murder theory, so why would we be afraid of his challenges? I am sure that if we all pay attention and work together, we will have his debunks debunked in a second, which is (in my honest opinion) his intention. So purpose # 4: cheering you up! If your faith is strong, if you have no doubt at all about MJ being alive, then no thread can change your mind, no matter how negative some may be.
5. See # 4: we are going to collect the investigation of 2 years in one thread. It is possible that by doing that, we might be able to see things we haven't seen before, to build a coherent theory. In other words, purpose # 5 is to connect the dots. Who benefits: we because the more dots we have connected, the more sleep we get which hopefully in my case will mean less grey hairs and the magical disappearance of the sacks under my eyes.
6. To find an answer for level 3, since we haven't reached a conclusion on that one. I have said before that I don't see TS answering on that one at all, because I do believe it is a sting and in that case, certainly when it's still on-going, no one is going to spill the beans on that one. But with debunking a murder theory and proving a hoax theory, we will have to look at the options for murder as well, to be able to debunk it. Who would want to kill MJ and why, might be the answer for level 3. So purpose # 6: find an answer to level 3. Who benefits: we, because it will help us even more to connect the dots.
7. It's TS and I am sure that he has another purpose with it. Maybe it's a numerological thing, maybe he is trying to prepare some members for what is still to come; Jackson family attacking the hoax even more (not just Jermaine) or the stuff coming up at the trial, if we make it to that. Either way, he probably will not explain it until 'the time is right', so that's pure speculation. Who benefits: who knows.
Anyways, i just gave you 7 reasonable arguments to defend my theory about this thread and it's purpose. I hope I have at least made you consider them. If you still think this thread is useless and sad, you are free to debunk my arguments. It's never a bad thing to debunk hoax clues either. There are hundreds of theories floating around, and they can't all be true. By debunking we will eventually find the truth, because that what is left that can't be debunked, must be the truth.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."...because, peacock is right-o about much of what s/he wrote, especially this part:
I have read some people here starting to DOUBT and possibly join TS in defending the murder theory...
<!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> <!-- s:evil: -->:evil:<!-- s:evil: --> <!-- scrash/ -->crash/<!-- scrash/ --> you have got to be kidding me. Wrong board in my opinion and at the very least WRONG THREAD.
Is it possible that there were no threats to his life and he invented it all to be in the public attention?!
Souza, thanks, that was a wonderfully logical, well thought out post. <!-- srespect/ -->respect/<!-- srespect/ -->
Just one query - I don't want to sound picky, but I want to be sure - did you intend to refer to 'level 3' in point 6 above, which was the 'what, if anything, went in the ambulance to hospital' level? Or did you mean 'level 4' which was about 'sting/hoax court'?
Suspicious - I got what you were asking. A helleva lot of proof would have to be given if anyone is willing to go into the murder theory. Atleast I think that's what your saying anyway.
And therein lies a big part of the problem I think. There is no single piece of 'evidence' that is convincing on it's own. It's only the accumulation of many, many 'strange' bits and pieces that build up the hoax theory.
I take your point Souza, that most have been concocting murder theories of their own on this thread, rather than bringing evidence to support their hoax theories. I doubt TS will post again here until we come up with something he can try to debunk!
I doubt anyone has the time to do the whole lot <!-- safraid/ -->afraid/<!-- safraid/ --> so what if I suggest I start the ball rolling and we all add just one piece of the puzzle.
Ok here goes:
Just because it's the first thing that came into my mind:
No RIP in TII - furthermore no mention in the text or speech in the film, of MJ having died. I expected a RIP out of respect. It's absence leaves the film as a legitimate piece of work for ever (i.e. even after his hoax is revealed).
I wondered about the use of the term 'Michael Jackson's Estate' in the credits but discovered 'estate' does not only apply after death:
"An estate is the net worth of a person at any point in time. It is the sum of a person's assets - legal rights, interests and entitlements to property of any kind - less all liabilities at that time. The issue is of special legal significance on a question of bankruptcy and death of the person."
I hope others will add their own puzzle pieces!
Hi Scorpionchik, after a good night sleep I have to say to you that you are absolutely right. I guess I was in a negative mood last night <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: --> Like I said in my post, I don't believe in those stories, but was trying to look at it from a different angle. What was I thinking to waver from my believe???!!! Everything what is happening during this years, certainly happens with/for a reason, so I'll stick with you guys, we DO NOT give up, THIS IS A HOAX!!
About TS, I haven't read all of his/her posts so I'm more of a bystander, and that's why I sometimes wonder who he/she really is. To me, he/she is certainly more than any other member, because he/she has a lot of followers (and no other member on this board has 'followers' mmmmm, OK not true, there is also a front/back and others that were kicked out eventually) and I feel that TS kind of 'leads the pact', people are really elated with another redirect or update. TS is the one that members intensively want to follow and TS' posts are intensively read, and that's why I wonder sometimes about his/her identity. I don't want my fellowmembers and myself to be mislead (that happened before), so maybe that's why I'm not an avid reader of his/her posts, I want to stay objective. If TS' intentions are good (and I kind of believe they are) than I would like to have a little more proof about what he/she is from Michael (relative, friend etc.) I know it's difficult to prove on the internet, but come on TS, you can give it a try!!
Since so much information about MJ’s “murder” and also MJ’s “death hoax” is openly available on the internet, there is no way that the Illuminati could be in ignorance or fooled. If there is some way that MJ has outthought them, we would not know about it, and there would certainly be no leaks or “slip-ups” or clues given by family or TMZ, etc. So if Jermaine is trying to convince them MJ is dead, does he think his slip-ups would go unnoticed? I mean this sounds like a scary deadly game to be playing if it’s for real. If it was my sister or brother’s life I was defending by lies you can be sure I would be very serious, scared, and careful about every word. MJ’s speech in 2002 about Matolla and Sony where he says he would/has out-thought them, is also freely available on the internet for them to watch. Should that not be in some top-secret classified MJ file. It’s basically a taunt/challenge for them to try to out-think him back. And here we find that TS is again getting our focus on how MJ out-smarted them, when we know full well there are dozens of visitors here every day, some of who could be them.
Curls, you are suggesting we start another list of reasons we believe MJ’s alive, for the umpteenth time and thread. Hasn’t TS perused some of those threads. I know repetition is a good teaching tool but…
None of this would stand up in a court of law as evidence. Souza has done a wonderful job cataloguing and organizing these lists. Could there be something different that TS wants from us? <!-- styping/ -->typing/<!-- styping/ --> <!-- sbounce/ -->bounce/<!-- sbounce/ --> So if TS is going to try to debunk all the thousands of bits of “evidence” (just looking at Souza’s list) this is going to be a long thread (compete with the Visions thread in number of pages). <!-- serrrr -->errrr<!-- serrrr -->
When my family asks me why I think he’s alive, I simply say because of the hundreds/thousands of clues, oddities, slip-ups, things MJ as said in his lyrics, and interviews and on and on. I say, let me show you just a couple of examples. Then they usually say, well that’s just a coincidence and could be this and this, and then they loose interest and don’t want to hear any more. Then they start saying what they think and it’s always things they’ve heard in the media. So it just goes no where every time. <!-- sargue/ -->argue/<!-- sargue/ -->
Also this level topic is too broad. The other 4 levels were all very specific focused on one small aspect of the hoax, and in fact people complained that it was too focused such as on the leaf pattern. <!-- s
There is one fact that I shared with someone at work that really got her attention and almost instantly thinking there might be something to the hoax. That is that there were exactly 9282 days between Michael Jackson's birth in August 29, 1958, to the Pepsi incident on January 27, 1984, and exactly 9282 days between that event and June 25, 2009. And each of these sides add to 21, which is 777. I even counted them myself to make sure. (It's pretty solid unless MJ birthday is false/created.) <!-- smj_bad/ -->mj_bad/<!-- smj_bad/ --> How will "Jermaine" debunk that? <!-- srespect/ -->respect/<!-- srespect/ -->
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I have some thoughts...
If Michael was murdered by someone, the funeral would be in a logical believable way...no clues at all. No doubts.
He was dead and all was understandable.
BUT from the first day on there are clues...everyone who think a little bit would see that there is something weird going on !
If that was the begining of a sting operation, Michael and the team around the hoax wanted that ????????? began surching after him. They want that Michael will be surched. It's very dangerous if it's so, but that was the only reason for all this clues. They wait that ?????? makes mistakes and they can catch ???????
Too much contradictions.
Remember the coroner who wrapped the fingerprints from the coroner van. The whole helicopter flight....i think on a different day, not the 25.06. !
Nothing of that was a normal procedure.
A blind man saw that there was something wrong ! Why shoud they do that when they have fear that someone kills Michael ? When he have to save his life with a hoax ? He would do it with a believeable hoax, not in that way !
LAPD Chief Bratton, knows Thomas Mesereoux, quiet his job after the funeral and go to a private security....coincidence ?
Someone said there are security guards at Neverland with bulletproof jacket....for what ?
I don't know the US legal system, but i looks like they protect Michael and his family.
So far i know are the kids always in the US...where they could be protect. No vacation outsite the US.
They leave Hayvenhurst and they can be everywhere. The pics are looking staged.
But who is ?????
Warner Bros. could be in the hoax with TMZ. Sony with the missing RIP in TII.
The Music Industrie against Illuminati ?
Can me it's all stupid thoughts....i no nothing about the music industrie and there rules and nothing about the legal system in the US and we will never know realy the backgrounds.
Annother weird point.
Janet was in Germany, in Berlin last week. She was some days here with 30 men , much bodyguards for one concert with 3000 visitors. She needs much protection ! Why ? How much money can you deserve from 3000 fans in one week with 30 men in a first class hotel ? Not that much...
The family seams to be extrem protected and there must be a serious reason.
I hope that everything will have a happy end and all are save ! God bless you ! ILYM !
OK, look at it like this. Someone already said that this thread will go to thirty pages. After that, where will we be? Seriously. Some have already pointed out that they have no proof of this or that. And guess what, the proof won't come from this board. They won't be consulting anyone on this board, so how can anyone going back and forth (and that is exactly what is happening) in this thread will help anything? Again, I do understand what you posted Souza. It is very thought provoking, but all it does in the long run is to keep people adding and piling onto what has already been speculated about.
There may be a court date, but it will be a hoax court day. Some think MJ will BAM this year, and he might but he will BAM by next year if not. I truly and strongly believe that. To me, this is where the main focus should be. I don't mean when. I mean how and why he took such a drastic and sad way to do it. Yes, it was sad to hear that he may have passed, but to me ever since I felt that he could have pulled this off - and when I finally truly believed in my heart that he did. I was elated and stayed positive. I never faltered. I think we should be concentrating on the postitive. Because if we go this route concentrating on the negative, the door is going to be left closed on all of the awakening messages that I'm sure MJ wants people to look forward to. We should still be rejoicing every chance we get that MJ is alive and is well, and not delighting in the fact that we proved it (which we truly can't to most). We should be able to feel that his life is not in danger - and that he is documenting his story/expose in the way he feels is best.
It is what it is, And we'll NEVER know why MJ did this totally. It is enough for me just to know that he did it. No one murdered MJ or tried to kill him leading up to 6-25-09. He will epose what and who he wants to with this hoax. He still show that at one point there were ones trying to drive him insane, drug him, mind control him, et al, but he out thought them, sought protection from God, and is living to tell his story and to continue sharing all of his gifts. Now to me that's a big part of the BAM. He has already BAMMED in that regard.
I'm just glad he is happy. He's Awakened to full consciousness and he wants us all to join him in my estimation. How can we do that with a dead corpse? Because no matter in the way one might cross your t's and dot your i's, the ones new to the idea will be still be "stuck in the middle", in 3-D. I think MJ = HOPE and UNITY. I bet for the next show he does with his brother, it will be titled UNITY.
@MJonmind, well, what I put in bold; that's his problem isn't it?!! <!-- safraid/ -->afraid/<!-- safraid/ -->
My suggestion was merely an attempt to follow what TS asked us to do in this thread: "you can bring any evidence you want, to support the hoax theory. And I will try to debunk it, and support the murder theory".
I can see this could be a way of weeding out the less convincing/false bits and leaving only the solid 'facts' (if such things exist!).
Anyway thanks for adding your 9282 fact!
"If someone wanted MJ dead, they picked one hell of a time to do it! why not sooner, why not later after the concerts when he had more money to take?"
I have thought this for a very long time..very good point Moon! The timing is all off for a murder theory. Seems like much of this hoax is centered around timing to begin with. I can see where the average person would not blink at reports of a frail, drug-dependent MJ meeting his demise at the hands of "personal doctor". It's the perfect setting for the masses to believe. However, upon a closer look things don't add up. That is where we come in....hoaxies, hoaxers, hoax family...whatever we are....we are it. The timing is, in fact, the key to it all. If someone was out to get MIchael, I would think sometime before the O2 announcement would have been the best choice. He was basically out of the spotlight. The public would have just seen it has another, "poor Michael" story. They could probably could have pulled off without much questioning....look at Lady Di. Do you truly think she was in an accident at the hands of a drunk driver? If this was murder, I would think the timing would be different....probably before the O2 announcement.
If someone found out about the hoax plans, perhaps they could pull off the actual timing of the demise itself. However, there are numerous things dealing with dates, times, references that nobody could put into place but MJ himself. Signing the will exactly 7 years to the date of the memorial. Who would know? Lawyers...yes. But they wouldn't necessarily know all the other numerology associated with this. I am interested in thinking about how Michael kept track (is keeping track) of everything. Surely he couldn't use a computer....a hack would be too dangerous. Handwritten notes could be stolen. How is he keeping it all straight? Was TMZ brought in early to help navigate the flow of information/clues? How are they being communicated with? If Michael is behind it all...which I think he is.....he must be well covered through a maze of information. I don't see Harvey getting a text saying, "...run "X" story with these capital letters......"
Also, what is up with the fake $1,000,000 bill? Why post that TS? Are we looking for some deep meaning around the bill....I don't think so. However, TS you have proven you don't post things just for the heck of it.
-Whitney Houston had a song called Million Dollar Bill (generally about love and how you feel about it....catchy, I give it an 8.5, good to dance to!).
-The currency is obviously fake....like this death? Like the hoax? Like what?
-There are lots of interesting illuminati/freemason signs on the U.S. bill....maybe a reference to that?
- Did you really just post a picture of it for the sake of saying, "that's the multi-million dollar question" ?
From TS Update #4d:
"Now get ready for the murder-theory destroying question: if they planned a murder to look like a hoax, what is the likelihood that they could succeed in convincing the family that MJ faked his death???????"
Link:
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Michael has stated more than once, "....family comes first...." I truly do not believe the family would do any harm to Michael....never in a "million" years. Whoever would have planned this, "murder" could never convince the family of a hoaxed death. So we are left with just that....a hoax-looking murder of a theory.
TS asked how solid our hoax evidence is. It's solid enough to keep going. Otherwise, we would have given up a long time ago. The numerology is a strong contender for belief. Take a look at TS's $999 Reward:
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I said earlier: timing is everything. The numbers don't lie..they are in black and white. The slip-up clues, like Jermaine's famous airport slip.....could just be an unintentional goof up. The paintings, the posters, the flowers...all could be taken as fantasy-minded thought. However, numbers that add up the same way each time......no breaking that. How do you explain them......all coincidences? Even those who say coincidences exist have to wonder about this many. Nobody, dies with THIS MANY coincidences....not even dear MJ. If it was murder, it was, "murder by numbers". The illuminati couldn't have dreamt this up if they tried.
So, TS...stay on the side of Jermaine for awhile. There is no hoax, MJ is really, "you know what". You can cry murder all you want. I don't believe it. When you are done crying, come back for a hug! Nothin' but love TS......
I started this post a few days ago, lol. Sometimes the words just don't flow out as fast as I'd like!
Blessings to you all!
The more I think of that and what Jermaine has said so far, the more I think the Sheikhs etc were behind it.
[highlight=#ff4080:2sa6oqcz]Brother Jermaine says that “if Michael would have embraced Islam he would still be here today,”[/highlight:2sa6oqcz]
That to me is a big clue. For me it is a very veiled indirect statement of who could be involved. Maybe there was a real terrorist threat, and yes the bigger Michael got, the bigger target he would become. We all know how he narrowly missed it in 2001, could he have narrowly missed it in 2009 too?
I have to agree with you! I've tried saying the same thing but my way with words come and go. Not only that but I have only been able to read for literally MONTHS so now I'm trying to get back into actually interacting with everyone again. Anyway....
I have to agree with you about the timing and briefly touched on it in one of my post. I also think that if there were a murder in the making it would make more sense to follow through with it when Michael wasn't in the spotlight.
I wish I could "squeeze" the truth out of that Dave Dave <!-- s:evil: -->:evil:<!-- s:evil: --> ....and all my questions would be answered <!-- sbow/ -->bow/<!-- sbow/ -->
Michael ...where are you <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( --> ?