<br />I decided to call a pathologist today. I ended up with a very helpful doctor who is a clinical pathologist. This means his profession is not really to cut into corpses (he is not a coroner or forensic pathologist) but he investigates organs and tissues of living people. However, he does perform autopsies sometimes as well, but that is around 2-3% of his work. I called and told him I was doing research because I am writing a medical thriller and had some questions so i could form a factual and accurate murder plot. He was very helpful and asked me if I could let him know when my book will be published... poor guy. However, I got some very interesting information from him about dead people, freezing them and embalming them. Here is the info he gave me in no particular order:<br /><br />Freezing a body and then melting it and heating it up is possible and it will indeed make a body look fresh. This however requires a quick freeze (professional) and immediately after death. The freeze will stop the decomposition of the body. From the outside, you will not see that the body isn't fresh. So far it seems that the EMT's. the doctors and the coroner could have been fooled with a long-dead corpse. HOWEVER... the moment the body is at a room temperature, rigor mortis and decomp will start and at a room that is heated up like that, it will go very rapidly, most definitely when the body is thin. If we believe that the EMT's found the body with the eyes open, we can be sure that there was no way that the doctors would be able to close the eyes after pronouncing him dead 2 hours later. And according to the official story we have been fed, they did because Jermaine tells us in his book that he opened one of the eyes when he went to see the body in the hospital. Besides that, it is standard procedure.<br /><br />As for the coroner: he can not be fooled. According to the pathologist I talked to, there is no way that a coroner wouldn't notice a body has been in deep freeze before. When you freeze a corpse, your tissue -that contains water- will crystalize. He called it 'freezing artifacts' (literally translated from Dutch). Standard procedure with every autopsy performed is making slices of all the organs and putting those slices under a microscope. If tissue has been frozen before, the slices of the tissue will show tiny 'holes' because the crystals damage the tissue. By all means, the autopsy report will state that certain 'freeze artifacts' are present in the tissue and it will also state that itt was most likely caused by freezing. <br /><br />What they can also see under the microscope, is if the patient has been ill before death. As he explained it to me, the organs that would have been affected by the illness, would show deformation of the cells. The coroner would definitely see if the patient was terminally ill before death.<br /><br />He also said that in case of a heart attack, they will notice inflammation of the heart muscle under the microscope. I didn't dare to ask if that would be the same with a cardiac arrest, because I was afraid I would give myself away, hahaha. Maybe one of the medical experts here will know that. But as far as I know, the heart did not show any signs of inflammation in the AR, but maybe I overlooked something.<br /><br />Latsly, since I had the feeling the doktor enjoyed my crazy questions, I also decided to ask about embalming, to make sure La Toya is full of shit in her book about the body looking stunning after 10 weeks.<br /><br />He explained that they embalmed the people that were used by the students for research and class. They use a 4% formaldehyde and use a lot to make sure the whole body is fixed and that the decomp will stop. But to make sure the corpse will not dry out and 'schrink', they also put it in a bath of formaldehyde. If you don't lay the corpse in such a bath, the corpse will not look very pretty within a few days and will dry out completely. The body will also be fixed, so we now officially have confirmation that La Toya was lying when she said that MJ (who was allegedly embalmed) looked awesome without that bath after 10 weeks, and that she could bend the body.<br /><br />So who saw the 'body'?<br /><br />The family: obviously in on it<br /><br />Security: Alvarez is the one calling 911 at exactly 12:21 pm. His testimony was full of fat BS and I think we can safely say he is in on it. Not to mention that we have a video of the security doing high fives later on as if they were happy they pulled it off.<br /><br />Murray: obviously in on it, the guy didn't kill anyone and is on trial for something he didn't do, yet looks pretty relaxed when he let's Ben photograph him at the barber/pedicure/Disneyland/tie-shopping etc.<br /><br />Paramedics: Didn't compare notes and their stories differ. If they were so truthful about what they have seen, why isn't their story identical? Plus they lost PRECIOUS moments by backing out that ambulance. Why didn't paramedic #3 testify? Who is that anyway? And why are they on a fake ambulance picture? Why did they back out of the property without that being necessary?<br /><br />Dr. Cooper: Pronounced MJ in the field, yet worked on the body for over an hour, even though she testified that he was clinically DOA. She also pronounced him at 2:26 which ties in with the hoax, plus she allegedly closed the eyes of a corpse that was dead for hours (or months for that matter). Same goes for Nguyen. Both women are nowhere to be found on the internet with pictures (except for some linkedin profile of Nguyen with only UCLA as working experience and 1 connection ... ) while the mysterious Dr. Daniel Cruz, who IS on the internet with pictures, and who is a cardiologist! has not been on the prosecution's witness list. <br /><br />Helicopter crew: I'm not even starting on them, they had the body on the seats for the crew in plain sight. Besides that, they could have been told that they had to transport a dummy like that to distract, so the real body could safely be transported by van. No need for a real dead body either way.<br /><br />Coroner: Dr. Rogers, who said he did the autopsy, looked UNREAL and lied as soon as he lowered his right hand. "What is your profession Dr. Rogers?" -> "I'm a deputy medical examiner".. ORLY? BS! He is a Chief forensic MD, as stated on the website of the LA County Coroner. Besides that, the coroner in charge of the autopsy was Lakshmanan, why isn't HE on the witness list of the prosecution? And we know that the coroner must be in on it if he did not get a MJ look-a-like on his table that died the exact moment MJ decided (years ago) to hoax his death. Either he has seen no body at all and still made a bogus report, or he had a body on his table that had been frozen and still made a bogus report.<br /><br />LAPD detective Martinez, who has NOT been on the witness list for the prosecution.<br /><br />Forest Lawn director Scott something, according to La Toya, plus Jeffré Phillips. Both were present when the coffin was opened after 10 weeks and they lifted the body to get palm prints... 'nuff said <br /><br />There is still no reason for a real corpse. For who? To fool Martinez? Is he the target of the sting? Just he? And if so, why didn't they let him take the stand? <br /><br />But anyways, I wanted to let y'all know that there is no way a coroner can be fooled with a terminally ill patient that died 6 months ago and has been on ice, no way.<br />
<br />I bet that was an interesting conversation! <br />
<br />Does anyone know why court won't resume till Monday? I know they ended early because of a medical convention in Chicago ( the docs are going to it) is that the reason why?<br />
<br /><br />Judge Pastor said that because of scheduling conflicts for the witness for today and tomorrow. <br /><br />Is this something that is usually done? A witness can't take the stand on a certain time so they just postpone the whole day?
<br />Fatalkiss26 posted an article that said it was a pre-autopsy pic and that is what I said in chat. There are different pics the coroner takes at different stages. Assuming it is not real based on no V cut is useless. The court would not show a cut up body and that is as respectable as it gets because the DA is going for dramatic effect for the jury so he can get them to come back with a guilty plea. The DA has to make the jury believe there is a dead body and it was a homicide even though legally Murray can only be charged with Involuntary Manslaughter. Yes it is also a hoax pic and it is a televised trial. IF this trial was not televised we wouldn't know what was being shown in court.<br /><br />On HLN with Jane she said that the date was cleared up and it has been said the date is 6/25/09 not 8/25/09 but even with that it would be wrong according to the autopsy report where the coroner wrote he started on 6/26/09. MissG pointed that out in chat.<br /><br />I was accused today in chat of being a non-believer and asked why am I even here on a hoax site? They thought that based on my comments giving an alternative to answers as IF I am looking at the pic being real. That is how I think outside the box. I look at the pic from the opposite side of my own theory. It was funny though because as soon as I explained my nickname and I was on the forum for 20 months I got told I don't give a fuck what your nickname is. I thought that would be enough to prove I am a believer. <br /><br />I was debating with a youngin who was saying that they had seen plenty dead bodies and that the body showed a bent leg. I explained the leg is not bent but relaxed. Shy did the experiment I suggested and said her relaxed leg falls to the side. I was then told by both of my haters that you just can't explain nothing to some people. <br /><br />I was told I was using the age card as IF I was saying because I am older I am wiser, LMAO that was far from my point. The youngin was making statements to the chat room and no one was questioning IF it was correct. That was my point that not everyone is a young niave kid in chat. I was challenging the statements but got defensive anger instead.
<br /><br />Well I am not a young naive kid either, and I am also trying to prove this picture is real, but in my case it's really Michael. I know your body can change in 25 years, but not the shape (aside from gaining or losing weight). Your structure does not change between 25 and 50. Michael obviously took good care of his body and stayed in shape. Like I have said before in another thread: the Jacksons seem to have fabulous genes. Just look at Rebbie and Jackie, who are much older than Michael. They look amazing. Even Katherine looks amazing at 80 something. I am not saying Michael still looks exactly like he did 25 or 30 years ago, I am only pointing out that the proportions of his body still look the same and that this picture could very well be him posing dead. <br /><br />As for the real body theory: a real body would not be transported in a sheet but in a body bag. Not only because it's preventing the leaking of body fluids, but also because there could be evidence on the body in case of foul play and a body bag would make sure evidence will not get lost. So saying that a real body was used and transported in a sheet makes no sense. Unless everyone that handled the body is in on it, and in that case there would be no use for a real corpse.<br /><br />I am absolutely not against the usage of a real corpse and I have thought for a long time that a real corpse was used, but it doesn't make sense, it's not useful. Until now, all those that have seen the 'body' are people in on it (officials, security and family). But if you could give me one or two good reasons to use a real corpse, I might change my mind. But so far I haven't seen one
<br /><br />Yes Souza I know you are not a young niave kid and I realize you are trying to prove that MJ posed for this pic. The evidence you provided does make sense IF that was the only possible way this was done. I understand what your saying regarding his shape. I did say in my other comment I see what you are trying to point out. My saying his body would have changed by the time he was 50 was also in reference to injuries he has sustained. IF we believe the stories of him falling a great distance when he was on a high platform and the thing malfunctioned (video proof exists) or when he broke his foot or has back issues and arthritis those things change a shape. Some of those things can cause the body to malform and change the shape. <br /><br />The sheet issue I had wrote about before in TIAI April 11 thread.<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy#Process<br />
Process<br />The body is received at a medical examiner's office or hospital in a body bag or evidence sheet. A new body bag is used for each body to ensure that only evidence from that body is contained within the bag. Evidence sheets are an alternate way to transport the body. An evidence sheet is a sterile sheet that the body is covered in when it is moved.
<br /><br />In my next comment I am reposting a comment I made to you in the TIAI April 11 thread regarding the use of a corpse/cadaver. I do know that you are not against the body/corpse/cadaver being used because you expressed that then. I am not completely sure about some of the officials who took the stand being in on it. The ER docs and the coroner's people who testified seemed legit like they worked on a real dead body. The guy yesterday spoke on doing the autopsy. The ones who I think were in on it who haven't testified: Ed Winters and Craig Harvey. A dead body/corpse would be needed for them to work on. <br /><br />The family is obviously in on it and of course his security who testified and his personal assistant but not real sure on him because from what I recall he never saw the body? He was to far away so he called Alberto to help.<br />
<br /><br />I know that it's not the ONLY possible way, but it's the most likely in my opinion. Dr. Rogers did the autopsy? As far as I know it was Lakshmanan. And Dr. Rogers seemed too unreal to me. Besides that, he testified that he is a deputy, while the LA County Coroner's site states that he is Chief Forensic MD. I found that odd and suspicious. And I find Anthony Hopkins very believable at being a cold-blooded killer in Silence of the Lambs as well, but I think he's okay in real life, lol. <br /><br />Another strong point against the body theory is the autopsy picture. That body looks bloody fine to me. Not that of a terminally ill patient at all. It's obviously altered to make it look skinnier, but they can't fool everyone with that. It's not boney, it looks fit and healthy. They did some Adobe magic on the stomach as well, probably to get rid of the 6-pack Michael has that Jermaine was talking about in his book. And June 25, 2009 was pre-planned years ago (MJ 2040). I know that there are a few more dates adding up to 2040, but still, what are the odds that you will have a terminally ill patient dying around that time that also looks exactly like Michael? Besides that, he leaked the info of "6 months to live" in January 2009, so it indeed was June 25 that he planned. Did he know a sick look-a-like already? But then again there would be a risk that either the person would get better (miracles do happen, I have an old neighbour that was unsavable, yet he is in treatment again and will most likely be cured) or the person could die way before June 25. You can put it in the fridge, but I don't believe for a second that you can fool a very experienced coroner like Lakshmanan with that. Besides that, what is the motive? Why use a corpse when you don't have to? So the coroner would need a dead body to work on, but it's okay to make a fake AR? Doesn't make sense. The coroner is in on it anyway, so he wouldn't need a dead body.<br /><br />As for the sting, I had a talk with bec last week and we compared 'notes'. I think the sting IS against Sneddon et al, and Jordy Chandler might be the key figure in all this. There was talk that Jordy spoke about the case, that nothing ever happened and that Michael was framed. But we can't find him saying that anywhere. I think that rumour was started on purpose, because I am very sure some people (Sneddon, Zonen, Sheriff whatshisname etc. plus Dimond, Bashir and all the other rats that were responsible for the false allegations) got very nervous hearing that. Maybe Jordy is the 'bate' in this sting. Jordy was old enough to remember everything and he must have crucial information. The fact that he didn't want to testify against Mike (twice!) must already have made some people get nervous, I bet they crapped themselves when they heard Jordy spoke out. Keep in mind that Jordy NEVER wanted to cooperate, but that Chandller and Torbiner drugged him to plant false memories in his head. I truly believe Jordy is on Michael's side.<br /><br />It's just a thought and not provable because if this is going on, it's behind the curtains, but that would be a sting that makes sense. Personal vendetta, it's what the FBI has investigated, so I think (and I HOPE) that that is the case. I think this trial is merely to get people to see how easy it is to frame someone for something they didn't do, and how someone is condemned without trial because of the biased media reports. This hoax is more than just the sting.<br />
<br /><br />
The guy yesterday spoke on doing the autopsy. The ones who I think were in on it who haven't testified: Ed Winters and Craig Harvey. A dead body/corpse would be needed for them to work on. <br />
The last sentence the way it is written makes it look like I was saying the 2 coroner people who haven't testified needed a body/corpse to work on. That last sentence is in the wrong place I should have placed it behind:
The ER docs and the coroner's people who testified seemed legit like they worked on a real dead body. The guy yesterday spoke on doing the autopsy.
I NEVER have stated that my theory included a terminally ill person. In the comment you quoted I said in my next comment I am reposting a comment I had made to you.http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php/topic,20587.msg362783.html#msg362783<br />In that next comment is my theory of an already dead corpse/cadaver and I provided evidence of what is realistically possible to do to a corpse/cadaver to use it in the hoax. I provided links to reference material that comes from medical professionals in their fields of expertise. The pdf file from the Coroner Workshop has info on how they preserve a body in it's natural state. That is not embalming they do not embalm a corpse/cadaver that is going to be used for study. There is links to info of how the corpse/cadaver is kept refrigerated not frozen to prevent decomp and allows the corpse/cadaver to be used for up to 10 hrs a day and it can be stored up to 6 months if needed. I provide links to evidence so people can read the info and not just take it for granted that I am telling the truth.<br /><br />Everything you wrote regarding a terminally ill person wasn't even refuting what my theory is. I am very aware of this hoax being more than a sting. I have stated many times of my beliefs regarding alot of things happening at the same time.<br /><br />I am adding videos from E. Fleak's testimony because there is alot of info in her statements made during her testimony that show incompetence regardless of the fact that the death wasn't ruled a homicide until later. Even IF it was just a death scene when she went in I would think that it would be common sense to treat the scene as IF there may be foul play just in case it turns out that way. The evidence she could have documented on that day could be scrutinized later and would be helpful now during the trial. I am also adding her testimony because she is part of the coroner's office.<br /><br />I am adding video of the testimony by Detective Smith especially the part when the interview was played. I am pointing out Judge Pastors repeated use of numbers to the jury.<br /><br />I am adding pics of the autopsy report showing Dr. Rogers signature and his title. He was also present during the autopsy according to the report, it wasn't just Lakshmanan. The other image of the autopsy report is about how many pictures were actually taken during the process of the autopsy.<br /><br />
Uploaded by JustMeSTKK on Oct 6, 2011 <br />Conrad Murray Trial - Day 8 - 06.10.2011
<br /> /> /> /> /> /> /><br /><br />Minute mark 59:00 on is about the interview with Murray. The DA is handing out transcripts and there is a CD DVD of the recording. The judge does the same thing in the instructions to the jury as he did when he spoke on people's 31 and 32. The judge repeated those numbers over and over just like he did before. To me that shows he is just making double and triple sure the jury understands the numbers.<br /><br /><br />Dr. Rogers states his current position is Chief of Forensic Medicine @ 4:14 4:12 mark. I heard it when he said it during the trial. <br /><br />http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/michael-jackson-autopsy-report?page=0<br /><br /><br />
I was thinking the past 2 days, and came to a theory about Michael's hoax. I said a theory, I may be off now, I am not a detective. We all say the Conrad Murray is the scapegoat, but let's suppose that Michael knew that Conrad was going to kill him. Conrad was the murderer, he over heard Conrad conversation that he would kill Michael on June 25/2009. <br />A good doctor wouldn't have abandonned a patient under the influence of propofol. That for me he had a malicious mind to kill Michael. <br />Michael called his brothers, and all his bodyguards, and warned them. While Murray left Michael unattended they went up and took Michael away in a safe place. Remember Jermaine's words, "we have Michael in a safe place". They took the tapes so no one would suspect the where abouts of Michael. The only thing is that they had to replace Michael with a body that resemble him.( that is the tricky one). <br /><br />I will explain why I came to that theory, everything is against Conrad Murray. I am not saying that Michael is dead, I know he is alive. I am just trying to see every angle of this hoax. I am going bananas to find out what happened that day. I am sure everyone here are going bananas with me. lolol/ My theory can work until they take Michael and move him to a safe place. Then if Murray is the killer, he had to see someone that looks like Michael. He did do mouth to mouth, for the first time.. Wow! That baffled me.. I spoke to my lawyer friend, and she told me my theory makes sense, but if they took Michael away who was in the bed when Murray came back. So I decided to put my theory here, if anyone can help me put the pieces together that would be much appreciated. Like my friend said in life everything is possible, you need to get out of the box and expand your horizon. Ok I will stop here, probably I will get jumped for my stupid theory. Blessings
If anyone here has American coroner as a friend or a family member,<br />please make them read full autopsy report and see what they say. Please?<br /><br />One huge reason why I'm on this forum is because of that "document", among other odd things.<br /><br />That report can not be real and from my understanding {sadly I'm not a coroner,<br />don't have an American coroner as on-line friend and procedures here in my<br />country are a bit different, I read all US autopsy reports I could find online, <br />watched all videos, read all blogs where someones with US coroner friends commented <br />on autopsy [non-believers, which is good in this case, objective critical view on <br />questionable autopsy report]}<br />this report is wrong in so many ways - it sort of describes couple <br />different bodies. It's so weird and unprofessional in places. I'd say it's<br />obvious fake that can trick most regular ppl, but not a real coroner.<br /><br />About theories.. Murray could be a well-paid killer, but no way he was<br />acting alone this way. Who paid him? Those should be on trial.<br /> I hope Michael indeed became aware of dangers in his life and made his escape right on time.<br />I think there could be a dead body. It's a serious hoax, and they could bother<br />to such level. But absolutely, if everyone, including security team and Murray<br />himself, were on Michael's side {Murray was in hospital, he saw the "body"},<br />then there was no real need for the "dead body".<br /><br />At the moment Murray looks like a total incompetent fool. So foolish and<br />unprofessional I can't believe MJ would allow such "doctor" in his life at all! <br />MJ, who met some real professionals I bet, smart man who often was<br />suspicious of ppl around him. I just don't believe it. That Murray guy is fake. smiley_spider
<br />If anyone here has American coroner as a friend or a family member,<br />please make them read full autopsy report and see what they say. Please?<br /><br />One huge reason why I'm on this forum is because of that "document", among other odd things.<br /><br />That report can not be real and from my understanding {sadly I'm not a coroner,<br />don't have an American coroner as on-line friend and procedures here in my<br />country are a bit different, I read all US autopsy reports I could find online, <br />watched all videos, read all blogs where someones with US coroner friends commented <br />on autopsy [non-believers, which is good in this case, objective critical view on <br />questionable autopsy report]}<br />this report is wrong in so many ways - it sort of describes couple <br />different bodies. It's so weird and unprofessional in places. I'd say it's<br />obvious fake that can trick most regular ppl, but not a real coroner.<br /><br />About theories.. Murray could be a well-paid killer, but no way he was<br />acting alone this way. Who paid him? Those should be on trial.<br /> I hope Michael indeed became aware of dangers in his life and made his escape right on time.<br />I think there could be a dead body. It's a serious hoax, and they could bother<br />to such level. But absolutely, if everyone, including security team and Murray<br />himself, were on Michael's side {Murray was in hospital, he saw the "body"},<br />then there was no real need for the "dead body".<br /><br />At the moment Murray looks like a total incompetent fool. So foolish and<br />unprofessional I can't believe MJ would allow such "doctor" in his life at all! <br />MJ, who met some real professionals I bet, smart man who often was<br />suspicious of ppl around him. I just don't believe it. That Murray guy is fake. smiley_spider <br />
<br /> <br />I have a friend who is a doctor, and he was trying to find the real death certificate and he couldn't find it. He still searching and cannot find it.. Now i can see if he can give this to his colleague cornorer to see if this is all legitimate. I am sure he will tell me that he did not see the body so he may not be very much help.. I will try.. I know they are very busy so cannot guarantie. I know my friend helped me alot for this hoax.
Ok so Im_convinced, what exactly is your body theory at this point then? You've stated here recently what it is NOT (not terminal patient, not frozen), but I'm not clear on what exactly it IS.<br /><br /><br />How does one go about using a refrigerated corpse to fool a coroner? I believe it is not possible to do so without extreme efforts at deception. Even then, I'm not sure it is possible. It is a coroner's job to determine time and cause of death. How would MJ ensure that this was achieved, while simultaneously ensuring that the cause of death be listed as "acute Propofol intoxication". How do you get Propofol to deviate from it's own break down properties and be present in the bloodstream of a long dead person? How do you even get blood to circulate in a long dead person?<br /><br /><br />In addition, as Souza addressed, what would be the motive? WHO would a real corpse be intended to fool? They're all in on it all the way down the line, from Carrolwood to Coroner. In other words, what's the motive?<br /><br /><br />I think the simple, easy, first suspicion is correct. There was no body.
<br />Ok so Im_convinced, what exactly is your body theory at this point then? You've stated here recently what it is NOT (not terminal patient, not frozen), but I'm not clear on what exactly it IS.<br /><br /><br />How does one go about using a refrigerated corpse to fool a coroner? I believe it is not possible to do so without extreme efforts at deception. Even then, I'm not sure it is possible. It is a coroner's job to determine time and cause of death. How would MJ ensure that this was achieved, while simultaneously ensuring that the cause of death be listed as "acute Propofol intoxication". How do you get Propofol to deviate from it's own break down properties and be present in the bloodstream of a long dead person? How do you even get blood to circulate in a long dead person?<br /><br /><br />In addition, as Souza addressed, what would be the motive? WHO would a real corpse be intended to fool? They're all in on it all the way down the line, from Carrolwood to Coroner. In other words, what's the motive?<br /><br /><br />I think the simple, easy, first suspicion is correct. There was no body.<br />
<br /><br />I don't get it either...<br /><br />
They had plenty advance time to add certain features to the corpse like the wig, eyebrow, hairline, lip tattoos to make it more believable it was MJ. That wouldn't be done on the day of death but before hand. The body stayed kept on ice until needed.
<br /><br />Anyways, let's assume it was kept in a fridge, fine by me because the pathologist mentioned that too. A body will go smell rotten after two days, regardless of that fridge. It slows down, it does not stop. As soon as it is placed in a hot room, decomp/rigor sets in very quickly. And will show even more signs of death than a body that was recently frozen.<br /><br />I still have not heard a plausible motive for a body either and with that refridgerated body, it still has to be a quite fresh corpse. What is the chance that a person would die around that day that looks so much like Mike that a coroner could be fooled. Mike WAS allegedly identified by his DL, which means that if the coroner is not in on it, the DL had to match the corpse. Oh, and besides looking like him, it needed to have vitiligo as well.<br /><br />Sorry, but I rest my case. The coroner is in on it, there is no need for an autopsy on a random corpse. There is also no reason for a real corpse for the rest of the witnesses. You either don't get what I mean, or I don't get you, but this is going in circles. Show me one very good reason for a corpse and I will reconsider, but so far you did not give me one.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Oh, and in addition to looking like Mike and having vitiligo, the body also had to have a slim body, around 50 years old, african american, with nose job done and died of acute propofol intoxication, alongside other features I probably missed.<br /><br />I believe a lot, but that would be too much of a coincidence.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
And they'd somehow have to figure out a legal loophole to display it in court as "Michael Jackson"'s body AND make it look enough like him to fool the entire viewing public.<br /><br /><br />There's that matter of a endotracheal tube being inserted into a body in rigor as well. Thawed out=rigor. That's been proven long ago.
The effects of freezing can be examined when putting a piece of beef into the freezer. <br /> The thicker, the slower it freezes, the more crystals, the more liquid running out when melting, the more damaged cells, the more dry and tough the meat will be. <br /> No way a corps would react differently. Having only sheets wrapped around a body would give this temporary "conservation" away in a few minutes. Even for "non-frozen" corpses a coroner's bag is used and that has some reasons. <br /> The tabloid tale about freezing the body on FL while they were waiting for weeks for the brain to return was the most ridiculous and genius story Michael broke to tease and prove how big stupidity can grow.<br /> <br /> I guess LaToya just wanted to indicate that the body was fine and bending = alive.<br /> <br /> I had to laugh so hard about the AR where it was stated that LaToya and a male companion were present in a lobby to witness how two detectives were pulling "hairs".<br /> Everybody was pulling straws and hairs at that time.<br /> <br /> All three versions, sting, hoax and murder are still valid for me. Nothing has been easy and simple in this. Everything is arranged in multiple layers, story lines, time frames, in parallel from different perspectives - just like life. "Seven on one stroke".<br /> <br /> I agree on "no body" and family, Ben Evenstad, Harvey, coroner, paramedics to be in.<br /> The judge does smile too much, Flanagan does play a role, Murray's jaw drops constantly lower by the day - but that does not mean they have to be in. That sheriff deputy sitting on a flashlight cracked me up. But that doesn't mean the complete brigade in the court room has to be in. Some are certainly only doing what they usually would do - just that this action is being documented and broadcasted now.
A real corpse, in order to fool the coroner, must have all MJ's characteristics (vitiligo, spider bite and so on) and also must have acute propofol intoxication as the cause of death and not some terminal illness, and also must look like MJ.<br /><br />This is impossible to find such a body, even with the FBI involvement, except the case Michael has an identical twin who was bitten by a spider in the same exact place and changed let's say his nose in the same manner and so on.<br /><br />So either there was no real corpse, or Michael is dead and there was his own body on the coroner's table.<br /><br />I consider the last statement could be true because in my opinion the EMTs, the UCLA doctors and the coroner weren't lying in their testimonies in court, this meaning they worked on a real body that none of them doubted it belongs to Mr. Michael Jackson :-\.<br /><br />I would be curious to know how many of you believe the persons above lied.<br /><br />
One more thing:<br /> <br />After observing Conrad Murray's sleeping behaviour in court and remembering his tears from day one, I can picture a scene like this:<br /> <br />He puts Michael under propofol to the morning, after useless attempts all night to make him sleep. ....but poor Murray was already very tired, after a whole night of being awake by Michael's bed trying to put him to sleep......<br /> <br />So instead of Michael, the doctor falls asleep while he should have been awake to observe Michael......but when he wakes up, Michael is already dead because he suffered an acute propofol intoxication and went into cardiac arrest and couldn't breathe anymore.<br /> <br />Murray panics, he realises he messed up big time and starts thinking what he should do to cover his traces. So this would explain the stupid things he did, like not calling 911 (why call them, Michale was so dead that he couldn't be saved anymore), calling Amir instead to make it look like he cared, performing CPR on the bed (why bother to move Michael on the floor, he knew the CPR was useless anyway)....<br /> <br />I can really picture all these like it happened for real because Murray cried in court, though he tried hard to hold back the tears, I think he really has remorses he killed Michael, I think he really didn't want this to happen but he simply fell asleep.<br /> <br />He sure looks like a man who falls asleep easily.<br /> <br />
So it's either no body or dead Michael.<br /><br /><br />I thought someone had debunked death by now. Who was it who was it... eureka! I think it was TS and the numerology of the hoax. No wait, that only proved that the timing was meticulously planned. Could have been murder by the numbers, I think I recall or so the theory goes.<br /><br /><br />Considering TS's support of the murder theory I think that leaves us only one option.<br /><br /><br />Also considering TS already debunked death:
Whether or not you have read any of the previous TIAI posts, I highly recommend that you read this one—it will surely kill the murder theory (as well as any MJ literal death theory). In fact, if there is ever any TIAI post that you need to read: This Is It!!!
Sarcasm doesn't bother me lolol/<br /><br />The main point is if the EMTs, UCLA doctors and coroner lied or not and I am probably the last person to judge this but to me they didn't lie. To me they all seemed sincere in their testimonies.<br /><br />Of course I make this statement based on my subjective perception of telling lies vs. truth.<br /><br />And I know some can even fool the lies detector. And I know people who can lie without blinking and convince me they tell the truth.<br /><br />Stii......I don't think they lied. And if they didn't
>>>>>> Michael Jackson is dead :-\.<br /><br /><br />ps: as TS abandoned the mission of sustaining the death theory, someone had to do it<br /><br />
But those are not actors. <br />I would accept them lying if they were actors, but I don't remember someone proving the EMTs for example are actors.<br />
You know on second thought, this is a never-ending, un-winnable debate. Most aren't going to really believe until MJ moonwalks across the courtroom. And some won't even believe then.<br /><br /><br />Front and TS both talk about patient persistence when dealing with non-believers but what they fail to address is the increasing prevalence of desperate lengths being gone to by "believers" in order to talk themselves OUT OF believing. As weeks and months and years have gone by, people have become increasingly fearful of believing. People have a great deal of fear over being disappointed. People are afraid to get their hearts broken; skepticism is a defense mechanism. I wonder if this human psyche phenomenon was foreseen or if this is one of those hoaxy spin offs that has taken on a life of it's own.<br /><br /><br />Either way, it's noteworthy to mention. This growing trend makes me want to save my breath. People are going to believe the TV until reality takes a giant poop on their coffee table. That's just how it is.
<br />Oh, and in addition to looking like Mike and having vitiligo, the body also had to have a slim body, around 50 years old, african american, with nose job done and died of acute propofol intoxication, alongside other features I probably missed.<br /><br />I believe a lot, but that would be too much of a coincidence.<br />
<br /> <br />You think there was no corpse and coroner is on it, have supposedly done 3 autopsies and wrote 3 times long paged report for no reason.<br />If coroner is in hoax, then the paramedics should be on it also since they delivered empty ambulance to UCLA. Now, where do you think list of people who is in hoax stops?<br />LAPD is on it too? OK.<br />then prosecutors must be on it too? Now, they know about hoax and spend hours in court to full themselves that CM supposedly involuntarily killed Michael?<br />Conrad Murray is on it (though I don't believe that version) his lawyers also full themselves in every day exhausting court session to defend Murray who did not kill Michael.<br />Michael Pastor is on it and every day in the court room pretends that he works, but in reality he is starring like a dumb Hollywood star.<br />FBI is on it, but behind the scene, invisible, secretly operates sting......that is ongoing for some reason and the matter got into the court but FBI still works on sting.... what for?<br />On top of all this, the guilty party of this hoax does not realize that Michael is alive.<br />We are the only ones who knows MJ is not dead, hoaxed his death, but his enemies don't get that.<br />And who are those enemies anyway, who are so dumb that they believe MJ is dead and happily live their lives until MJ BAMs. They don't see inconsistencies in the story, testominies, or read this site, or watch hoax videos and ideas on youtube. Is that possible? I don't think so.<br /> <br />After all, Michael is coming back to laugh at all those people who knew he is not dead but were pretending in the court as if MJ is dead and were "filming reality court" for fun, and MJ will tell them "goch ya".<br /> <br />How believable is the scenario I described above?<br /> <br />To my humble opinion, Michael is alive, no one but family and couple of bodyguards who helped him to escape know about it, and he is not coming back. Most reasonable version I can think of.<br />How autopsy got there, was there a corpse- I don't know. <br />Possibly there was a corpse ready at Carolwood who was put in ambulance instead of Michael so even Murray did not realize it. You have thought about that option a while ago. I think that is most feasable version.<br />Vitiligo pretty common disease. To find deadly sick someone and make him look like MJ is not a problem, especially when MJ planned escape carefully and long time ago.<br />Still complicated.
Did anyone see Man On The Moon with Jim Carrey? There's a scene that takes place at UCLA Medical Center where the parents and siblings of Andy Koffman are being told by a doctor that their son/brother is dying of cancer. They don't believe it's true because they know at UCLA doctors can be hired by movie companies. This holds true to policemen, firemen, coroners, etc., they all can be hired to play a roll and sign a disclaimer not to reveal the truth. Even at the end of the movie it implies that Andy Koffman is alive. Danny Devito also starred in this movie. Since he worked with Andy - why would he be ok with this ending unless he knew something? Food for thought...<br />
I always had a similar theory on my mind. I always had the feeling that there is something fishy about Conrad Murray. I always thought that he belonged to the bad guys and wanted to kill Micheal. But Micheal discovered his plan and prepared a set up for him. but then the famous Murray-video appeared, which was more or less a message similar to Micheals speeches. Then after watching the video I had no doubt at all that Murray is in on it.<br />So here is the video once again. Sorry for reposting.<br /><br /><br />
Did anyone see Man On The Moon with Jim Carrey? There's a scene that takes place at UCLA Medical Center where the parents and siblings of Andy Koffman are being told by a doctor that their son/brother is dying of cancer. [size=12pt]They don't believe it's true because they know at UCLA doctors can be hired by movie companies. This holds true to policemen, firemen, coroners, etc., they all can be hired to play a roll and sign a disclaimer not to reveal the truth. [/size] Even at the end of the movie it implies that Andy Koffman is alive. Danny Devito also starred in this movie. Since he worked with Andy - why would he be ok with this ending unless he knew something? Food for thought...
<br />Good point!<br /><br />Gina<br />
ps: as TS abandoned the mission of sustaining the death theory, someone had to do it
<br />He should be happy you're helping him out!<br /><br />I know what you mean when I see the people in the courtroom--it just seems so genuine and natural and truthful. Whoever wrote up the script lines with all the medical knowledge obviously had access to the best minds in their fields. I admit I struggle with is it even possible to be so flawless when in addition it is live or seemingly 100% live. There's been a whole lot more excellent actors than just in the courtroom, even 81 year old Katherine has been amazing. Yet when you consider the 2 years worth of 'evidence' proving MJ's alive, then the ONLY conclusion is that many or most or some of the courtroom people are lying. To me there's just no other way, they are acting, so VERY very well. Only the witnesses who did not directly see MJ's body would not have to be in on the hoax. Or we throw out these 2 years worth, and we are mistaken. It again is a MAJOR MAJOR mind twist crash/ that these 2 realities can co-exist. I really do totally understtand non-beLIEvers reluctance to embrace the hoax. Is acting on this high calabre so consistently even possible. Remember the little video skit that PPB did where Paris is giving Blanket the medicine, next scene we see a zombie, etc. but never a dead body. I can't find the video anymore. I believe 100% that MJ's alive, but I still think that he's got some trick up his sleeve as to the 'body' type that none of us has thought of yet. Maybe there's still a few wild cards coming yet. MJ, TS and Front are most certainly withholding vital information. It's info on the drip for us. He who controls your information controls your destiny.<br /><br />BeTheChange<br />
I find it ironic that the 'system' relies on, and is confident about, 12 men and women determining the 'fate' of another human being....but at the same time, NOT confident in these 12 people doing their own research to determine if what is being shown and said in court is the 'truth'. <br /> <br />If the jury in this case was 'allowed' to do their own research....as we have done for the past 2+ years....their deliberations would last a total of 10 seconds because they'd KNOW that Murray is not guilty of anyone's death, since Mike is alive.<br />And…<br />As it stands right now...they will be basing their conclusions ONLY on what they have seen and heard in court....which, as we know, includes 'evidence' that has been altered, fabricated, and contradicted. How can any verdict that comes out of that be considered 'justice'?
<br /><br />Your post about the jury not allowed to search the internet, reminds me of 911, and the fact that the media wants to be the only source of the public’s info on understanding it. They don’t want people to search the internet and get alternative news. Daniel 12 says that in latter days that knowledge will increase. That could be interpreted that people in general will be given more information especially because of the internet, which is less controlled by a centralized source such as the church, the government, the media. There is still much missing information for us to make informed decisions about specific people, history, God, etc.<br /><br />I noticed that the good-looking Dr. Steinberg (I think) mentioned that he had gotten an understanding of the ONE research article in a medical journal about the use of propofol for sleep purposes, which had come out post June 25, 09 from his reading on the internet. He said he was researching to prepare for being a witness in this case. I think it was Flanagan who grilled him with questions about it, such as who told you about this study. The doctor said nobody, and that he does lots of reading (sounds like lots of the internet). Does anyone know if the admonition to the jury of not going on the internet, also applies to the witnesses as well? I know the judge always tells witnesses not to discuss the case with anyone, but does he say no internet for them as well? The judge didn’t say anything about this doc searching.<br />
wow, i have been away for a few days and had several pages to catch up on. several magnicifent yet mentally pushing then pulling pages...<br />i guess for me personally, here is what i am taking away from all the recent info.... (obviously opinions can change)<br /><br />1. one previous post, (apologies for not quoting name, have read so many pages today) mentioned as a theory perhaps CM was murderer and then on the fly MJ responded and his family got him out safely. personally i feel that too many of his past lyrics, music, statements, TII, for years, all point to a death hoax based on revenge / take over. so therefore in my humble personal opinion, (i say this to aknowledge that i am a mere beginner in hoax land) i dont think that this was all an adhoc, reactive, response to a potential murder carried out by CM. the previous events leading up are too coreographed for this to be a murder aswell as the forementioned references in his work. following death date, all the comments via family in support of DH (this is not really it, not the final curtain call) etc etc or at a minimum the continual reference to MJ in present tense (daddy wanted to be here tonight) etc etc. for me personally, the murder theory is out, and the DH based on reaction to possible murder is out... who knows... i may change my opinion down the track.<br /><br />2. that brings me to the autopsy photo (so called proof that mj is dead / murdered).... it looks like mj, manipulated. i agree with souza on this one. i think it is a staged photo that mj posed for, i dont feel it is a real dead body. therefore i have completely eliminated body theory. anyways, not bringing up photo merely to declare what i think the photo is. the reason is, i have been reading all your comments and really thinking about them and this pic. if i am on the DH side of the fence and then get this photo shown to me, why should it change my position from DH to literal DEATH. for me personally, if i am going to accept evidence such as autopsy photo, it means that i am going to have accept other evidences / statements for that side of the fence.... (im getting there, bare with me) brings me to Mrs Jacksons statement, about michales body / face due to resuscitation attempts... if this is a real photo, with a real MJ dead on the table, and Mrs Jacksons statement is real, then the two dont match up. personally for me, this photo does not set my faith back. in fact this photo only cements my faith DH even more.<br /><br />more abt the photo. my second personal rebuttle to the pic, and please note that i say this will all due respect to MJ. this so called autopsy photo has been noted as being taken a few hours after MJ 'passed away' bodily fluids / colon would be evacuating by this time, no evidence of that on the bed. if this photo was legitimate, they would have had him on an appropriate surface where water can be used to wash away the involuntry fluids, as well as prepare the body for autopsy, then perform autopsy. http://www.crimefilenews.com/2009/06/michael-jacksons-second-autopsy.html<br /><br />weather this photo was taken several hours or at time of autopsy, i dont feel that the surface is appropriate for a dead body. also if this photo is taken only a few hours after 'time of death' and not at autopsy, why the need for him to be naked, if not yet ready for the procedure.<br /><br /><br />moving on...<br /><br />3. re: a comments made about actors / characters / lies, etc. in my humble and PERSONAL opinion, none of the so called statements in court that seem real are lies. because the comments are not in reference to reality. in realation to bec's comment, about when we watch a movie, do we consider characters as liars, is SPOT on! looking at this courtcase as a movie. /bravo/<br /><br /><br />learning so much and appreciate everyones dilligence.<br /><br />L.O.V.E to all.
Murray is definitely in on the hoax and helping Michael, not trying to kill him. That is a far fetched theory and also underestimating Michael in my humble opinion. He planned this hoax for decades and thinking 'Murray was about to kill him and he escaped' makes him look like a vulnerable, weak person. Is this what people see in Michael? And I do not also understand how they believe Michael prepared ALL these huge things just in a couple days! This is his master plan, this is his SHOW, this is his REAL LIFE MOVIE. If you can not see it, I don't know if you learned a thing from this hoax. This is a perfect plan which could be be planned by a perfectionist like Michael and he planned it for decades. I hope people stop to underestimate him and what he is capable of soon.
Comments
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.">>>>>> Michael Jackson is dead :-\.<br /><br /><br />ps: as TS abandoned the mission of sustaining the death theory, someone had to do it<br /><br />