Why is Michael on red stretcher, i think it's not common.
When a patient laying in a ambulance the're always on that white bed (underneath the red stretcher in the still photo).
I agree with some of you i think it was a setting picture, because the interior of the ambulance doesn;t match the ambulance interior of the video( interior of the 71 ambulance).
for excample: the paramedics seat is on the wrong side if you compare, and is'nt common for a paramedic to sit on the left side of the patient?
It's not possible to mirror the interior when you don't get the whole image( one side picture).
i think the patient is always laying in the ambulance with his head towards the driver the paramdics who is on front of the head of the patient is sitting with his back towards the driver.
The red is actually orange, and it's a backboard. And the paramedic is seated appropriately. There's nothing odd about where the paramedics are sitting.
Yes i found out later on today that ist's a backboard it's for protect the patients back and neck it's a hard surface.?
But what i mean by the paramedics seat it looks well at the pic with Michael but doesn't fit the video interior of the ambulance 71, because then the seat of the second paramedic. would be on the left side of Michael, in my opinion correct if i'm wrong please. i hope you understand my point because englisch is not my native language as you have problably discoverd by now <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
That doesn't look like Ben to me, the chin and eyebrows aren't right, plus there might be long hair, looks like a woman. Yet on the interview Ben says, "I was the first car following the ambulance." I'm assuming the red Prius was his. At the same time the red shirt pap's face is definately not Ben either. The yellow shirt pap we don't see his face.
lilwendy
*edit* now that I look at it I'm not sure... maybe he's sitting and hunched over which would make sense because the badge appears to be on the left arm on both of them... so never mind.
I'm thinking it's weird that we only see 2 left arms, almost like they were deliberately trying to remove their rights out of sight.
Grace » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:35 am
curls wrote:it makes me wonder if maybe the lawyers in Murray's trial could do with doing similar: prosecution - prove he's actually DEAD before accusing Murray of anything, defence - prove he's NOT!
They are not going to discuss whether or not MJ is dead because the reason why they are meeting in court is the prerequisite assumption is that he is dead (X).
People in every field of expertise rely on other esteemed experts to establish their pre-suppositions so they can build their own reasonings and beliefs. If those underpinnings are mistaken or lies, then the added reasonings will be false also. This happens in religious, historical, political and other fields of study. If there's a question of MJ being alive or dead, how can the courts decide on if a murder took place. Why do I get the feeling the lawyers and judge involved already know he's alive. They can't be so daft that they would buy all the ridiculous inconsistancies. I think MJ has more professionals and actors helping in this hoax than most realize.
Please, can anyone help me out here? I've spent ages trying to find out what time ET first posted the ambulance pic amd can't get any further than that it was on 25th June. I really want to know how soon after his death they published it.
Really? I'm not sure you're right about that but all the links I can find are dead ends I suppose because the news is so 'old' now. There are pics on Youtube that appear to have been put up on 25th and many links that on the Google page look like they're dated 25th, but then aren't dated when you get to the page.
Why is this subject so important?Isn't the " reason " more important?
OR is it that the photo is NOT fake?
I think that after 20 months we all know the reasons and are very aware of it. I have been looking at parts of the picture I haven't noticed before and I think TS' point is that he wants us to take a closer look at details like that, to build actual proof that Mike is not dead, or at least that stuff like this is fake. This way it is easier to explain and show to non-believers. Now there are hundreds of theories on the board and we all have our own 'proofs' that stuff is fake, this could get us all on the same page. Facts instead of theories. Piece by piece.
Non believers don't even talk to us !: will they listen? How this can be easier to explain:with just one photo?....Plus people always ask "why" not "how" <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( --> I am sorry if i go off topic and interfere ...but this post got me confuse...and i'm too tired to over analyze pics...my imagination is too blur <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( -->
It's just not possible to make a picture like that.
Try it... <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
If the picture is real it can only have been made inside the ambulance, and for that you need a special camera.
So the guy who took the picture must be speedy gonzales, first getting the speciaal camera, getting in the ambulance, jumping out of the ambulance.
[youtube:37te7hig]
Or a ghost.....
Chappie
The photo of Jackson is the last image published before his untimely death, Thursday, June 25,2009. The photo shows Jackson in an ambulance being worked on by paramedics who were attempting to revive the King of Pop.
Jackson was pronounced dead at 2:26 p.m. at the UCLA Medical Center.
So, my next question, is Ben's version realistic? How they took the pics, sat on them thinking they were just some more 'MJ going to the hospital' pics, found out (from TMZ) that he'd died (2.26pm), picked the 'best' one, contacted ETOnline, agreed and carried out the sale of the pic, and ET published (before 6.00pm). Not personally knowing the workings of the press, but knowing how eager they are to get in first with the big scoops I would assume this is possible in this time frame. So I think I'm clear in my own mind that the generally told story holds good.
Then there's all the other questions ..... !!! My head hurts, so I'm not going to go into them right now!
I am posting this video to show the ambulance window size. This video also shows a guy in a tan shirt filming, who is that? This also shows where the red shirt guy was standing when the ambulance was backing out. The body guards do not seem to panicked. <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> The mark for the window is 1:29-1:33
I realize that every one of us will see things differently and have a different approach when trying to figure out this grand illusion. We will focus on different parts of this famous ambulance pic, lol
Most of us acknowledge it is fake. Some of us agree it was staged before 6/25/2009 and then on the day of death the scene was set to make it look as though the pic was captured that day. I think the red car, the inside of the ambulance, the yellow shirt guy, the red shirt guy, where the wall is, where the leaves are, etc. doesn't matter at this point. That is just a distraction and I believe it is leading us no where. This is not solid evidence...
We are going around in circles focusing on logistics of where the red car was parked and if it would be possible to capture it in a reflection of the ambulance window. Does what I am getting at so far make sense?
The pic can be explained by a non-believer as being real. I think if we want to prove to the non-believers this pic is staged and fake we need better evidence or better arguements. I think this is going to come down to common sense and beyond a reasonable doubt type situation.
Each one of us will have a different opinion on how this was done but, I think some are still focusing on the bait and switch (red car, yellow or red shirt guys) to the point of confusion. I think we should come to a conclusion on this pic and move forward.
We could spend the next month on this topic alone. I think we should start to just sum it up by asking questions and then answer them.
Is that ok?
My opinion is this pic was set up and staged prior to 6/25/2009. I believe it was a wax dummy with a real intubation tube and 2 EMT's being photographed as a starting point to do the next step which would be to release it to a Tabloid T.V. show through a photog because then it makes the death more believeable by the public and the Tabloid show.
There is a reason a Tabloid show was chosen, no one working there would question the pic because it is sensationalism according to the Tabloid show. The pic wouldn't be scrutinized as much. Now if it was given to one of the other news programs like CNN, CBS, ABC maybe they would catch on quicker. Yea I am giving them some credit, lol
Q-The pic we have been shown was not shot on the day of death, agree?
Q-The scene was staged on the day of death to make it look as though it was shot on that day, agree?
IMO-There really was a 911 call made, there really was an ambulance that responded that day, there really was a patient that day but, it wasn't Michael or the wax dummy.
I think we need to seperate those two things. The pic is one thing and the footage of the day is another thing. Those two are not connected to each other by the same day.
I am passing the torch to who ever wants to continue this conclusion, or not.
There were several 911 calls.
If I recall right, we found one being published by CNN with a lady's voice that was cut out in another version. Should be somewhere in the archive. I think we discussed 4 different versions of the call at the time. In one the voice of the caller was louder than the dispatcher. In one somebody said something like "just 1 minute" like in a take.
Anybody else remembers?
Everything was doubled or multiplied. A fake of a fake of a fake. <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Then next we need to show evidence that would prove it's an MJ's Alive hoax, not cover-up for murder hoax. So far like some have said both MJ camps agree it's a created photo. Can anyone think of anything?
Like someone also said if Ben photoshopped the pic and sold it as genuine he's liable, and if he's proven to be part of a coverup, he could be an accomplice to murder, either way in trouble. Like a game of chess.
Why is Michael on red stretcher, i think it's not common.
When a patient laying in a ambulance the're always on that white bed (underneath the red stretcher in the still photo).
I agree with some of you i think it was a setting picture, because the interior of the ambulance doesn;t match the ambulance interior of the video( interior of the 71 ambulance).
for excample: the paramedics seat is on the wrong side if you compare, and is'nt common for a paramedic to sit on the left side of the patient?
It's not possible to mirror the interior when you don't get the whole image( one side picture).
i think the patient is always laying in the ambulance with his head towards the driver the paramdics who is on front of the head of the patient is sitting with his back towards the driver.
The red is actually orange, and it's a backboard. And the paramedic is seated appropriately. There's nothing odd about where the paramedics are sitting.
Yes i found out later on today that ist's a backboard it's for protect the patients back and neck it's a hard surface.?
But what i mean by the paramedics seat it looks well at the pic with Michael but doesn't fit the video interior of the ambulance 71, because then the seat of the second paramedic. would be on the left side of Michael, in my opinion correct if i'm wrong please. i hope you understand my point because englisch is not my native language as you have problably discoverd by now <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
It is a hard surface. It's used for moving patients, providing immobilization, and providing a hard surface for compressions (usually not all three of those things at once, but one or two).
For the seats, it does all fit. There's a CPR seat (it has other names) on the right side of the patient, a bench seat on the left side of the patient, and an airway seat at the head of the patient.
Then next we need to show evidence that would prove it's an MJ's Alive hoax, not cover-up for murder hoax. So far like some have said both MJ camps agree it's a created photo. Can anyone think of anything?
Like someone also said if Ben photoshopped the pic and sold it as genuine he's liable, and if he's proven to be part of a coverup, he could be an accomplice to murder, either way in trouble. Like a game of chess.
Why would Ben be in trouble for selling a Entertainment pic? Key word Entertainment; where anything goes in Hollywood. This is also considered an Improve Performance. We are also considered Improve actors/actresses by being on this forum we add to the story.
According to the interview Ben gave he didn't say how much he was paid. He may have been paid well by Entertainment Tonight or he may have been paid by someone else. He stamers alot when he speaks about that day and he doesn't look the interviewer in the eye. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> Signs of deception. I wasn't there on the day Ben supposedly "sold" this pic so I just have to take his word for it, right? lol
As for Ben selling a fake pic and the Tabloid show bought it hook, line and sinker...
The media lies to us every day, this time around Michael was the one to tell the story his way before they did. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
This was another Wikipedia page; and in fact it is a direct link from the statement quoted above, found on the “Faked Death” page. Obviously, then, the MJ death hoax can be considered as performance art—and therefore it can certainly qualify as one form of non-violent artistic resistance (AIR).
Here is an interesting statement from the performance art Wikipedia page: “The performance may be scripted, unscripted, or improvisational. It may incorporate music, dance, song, or complete silence.” Ever since the June 25 hoaxed death, MJ himself has been completely silent; and yet his silence has already spoken louder than before his “death”! Performance “art is resistance”; MJ “has a voice”, and he can “speak the truth”—even through his silence.
My proof that it is a fake picture comes not from the actual picture but from the description given by the EMTs who suposedly first arrived on the scene and could not recognize the patient as MJ. Certainly the picture of the person on the stretcher that was supposed to be THE LAST PHOTO OF MJ BEFORE DEATH, is clearly recognizable. Then to add insult insult to injury the hospital staff also described the arriving patient as an old man. The person in the ambulance picture who supposedly arrived at the hospital on 6/25/2009 certainly does not fit that description. Actually, that person on the picture in the ambulance <!-- s --><!-- s --> looks like a younger MJ. SOMEBODY IS LYING. BADLY.
All this over-analysis is making my head spin but I commend everyone for doing such a great job! I have read everyone's replies and you guys are amazing.
For me, the ambulance photo parallels Michael's "death" itself - real but fake. Meaning real on the surface, we "see" the image and many accepted it as genuine. But fake because the "MJ" is most likely a dummy and/or the photo was manipulated in someway, whether photoshop or not (I really don't know anything about photoshop so I'm certainly not an expert at recognizing what's photoshopped or not). Like the death, if you take a moment to look beyond what you see, there's so much more to find.
I don't know if the photo was actually taken from outside the ambulance or not. It's possible it was taken before hand and then the actors took their place outside of the ambulance to make it look like that's when it was taken. It's like continuity in movies - there are people whose job is to make sure everything matches up perfectly so the movie flows properly, like it's occurring from start to finish, instead of random scenes filmed out of sequence.
Then next we need to show evidence that would prove it's an MJ's Alive hoax, not cover-up for murder hoax. So far like some have said both MJ camps agree it's a created photo. Can anyone think of anything?
Um...yes, I have something. It's a bit Hitchcockian...but, uh, NOT beyond the genius and "punkmanship" of Michael Jackson, to do this in a most unique way---with a twist. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> Are you thinkin' what I'm thinkin' <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
All <!-- s:idea: -->:idea:<!-- s:idea: --> we have to prove, is that MJ did some kind of a "walk on" IN that video. Point out LIVE MJ in any shot and let the naysayers prove it's NOT him. <!-- s:o -->:o<!-- s:o --> <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
He can even be in disguise---actually, that is better---more beLIEvable---because we KNOW he does this and have documented certain disguises he has already used for this hoax. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
Can anyone say: "Ambulance driver"? <!-- s:P -->:P<!-- s:P --> <!-- s:P -->:P<!-- s:P --> What about "tour bus passenger" ? or, plain ole reflection --not in the original photo, but in the clearcoat of the red car?????? <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Hey----don't shoot me down, unless we already DID check this, and I skipped that day. <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: --> <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
As the red car image gets darker and more prominent, so does the leaf/face pattern.
The leaf/face pattern is seen more clearly when it is "in" the shadow of the paramedic's arm. This is not possible in reality. Shadow blocks light and so therefore prevents the eye (or camera lens) from making out detail.
In this case, the shadow (eliminating light) makes the pattern easier to see.
The pattern is darker then the background, eliminating the possibility that the pattern was created with glow-in-the-dark or luminescent material, would cause the pattern to stand out in shadow.
In a previous post I showed how the image appears to disappear behind the arm and the white cloth that appear in the foreground. I conceded at that time that this would be possible to alter during the edit process. I will also add that it is also possible, if using just the right level of opacity, the image simply wouldn't show up on the arm in such very tiny detail. It is also possible that this was a complete coincidence, and the image did indeed end at that point (this is especially true of the white cloth, less so in regards to the arm).
I have also found a different ambulance pic version since I made that post where the leaf/face image appears to go over the arm. I'll post it as soon as I can.
Conclusion, when comparing the different versions of the ambulance pic, the leaf/face image gets darker and more pronounced and shows up better at the same rate as the red car. As the red car gets darker in each version, so does the leaf/face. The pic where the leaf/face shows up the least is also the pic where the car "reflection" is lightest.
Based on this information alone, I have to conclude that the leaf/face pattern was added in an opaque image layer that also included the red car, and this opaque image was likely layered over the pic of the "scene".
As to why bother altering? Perhaps this pic really does hold all the answers.
My proof that it is a fake picture comes not from the actual picture but from the description given by the EMTs who suposedly first arrived on the scene and could not recognize the patient as MJ. Certainly the picture of the person on the stretcher that was supposed to be THE LAST PHOTO OF MJ BEFORE DEATH, is clearly recognizable.
Before moving on with the investigation of the ambulance photo, and other aspects, I want to mention once more the purpose for this thread--since it has only been a few days, and several are questioning it already.
As I said before, your METHOD or APPROACH to investigation is far more important than the ambulance photo or other parts of the hoax. Not merely for investigating this hoax, but for your own good in your entire life, these are extremely valuable skills--and this forum and thread give you an opportunity to learn and practice these skills in an environment that is friendly (or at least should be, and usually is). Part of the good investigation skills here, is learning how to critically examine things from the OPPOSITE perspective than your own belief (which in this case is the hoax). We have a term for people who are unwilling to look at or even consider things from somebody else's perspective, and that term is "prejudice"--and you already know what MJ thinks about prejudice.
For the most part, people have been doing excellent research and have a lot of good questions and/or answers. Some of the very things that I am planning to bring out, have already being discovered and brought out by others--which is great. For example, the timing of when the ambulance photo was released--this point is EXTREMELY important, especially when it comes to the question of hoax versus murder. I will explain why soon.
But even though most comments have been good or excellent, there have been a few complaints recently about this thread. We still have several weeks before the trial, and we're just getting good started on this phase of investigation; if it is too much for you, then please either skip the thread, or else read only and don't comment. I don't mean to exclude anyone who has genuine input on what is being discussed; but please keep your discussion to evidence for or against the topic at hand, and not complaints about the topic itself or the purpose for it, etc. Again, if for any reason this thread is not helping you personally, then just skip it. But please don't interfere with those who are taking it seriously, and who are getting enjoyment from it and/or are practicing good investigation skills.
Last of all, I am the one who started this thread: maybe I should give a little more of an overview, so people will have a little better idea of the bigger picture that we are working on piecing together here. The ambulance picture is a major key to unlocking the entire hoax--how and who, etc. It's not only important to understand IF the photo is fake, but HOW it was faked. Once we understand how (staged in the same amublance, but another day; or staged in another ambulance on another day; or not staged at all, but Photoshop fabricated; or not fake at all, but 100% real; etc)--then the rest of the events should fall into place relatively easily.
For example if the paramedics were involved with staging the photo before 6-25-2009, then they were most likely also in on the hoax itself. But if the ambulance photo was 100% real, or perhaps real but slightly edited in Photoshop, then maybe the paramedics are not in on the hoax at all. Once we understand whether or not the paramedics are in on the hoax, then many of the other pieces should fall into place--such as who or what was in the ambulance on 6-25-2009 (MJ, or dummy, or nothing, etc). There is also the question of whether the entire court and courtroom is staged, with the judge and jury and lawyers all being confidential agreement actors--or is there perhaps just a few key people who know what's really going on.
If the answer to these questions doesn't interest you, that's your perfect right; but kindly allow those of us who are interested to continue our investigation.
I'm in. I'm going with Im_convinced's explanation. Each stage was separate (pic/ambulance outside gates) and thanks to clever editing and some movie making magic, The Ambulance at Carrolwood comes together as a seamless event on 6/25/09.
The pic is of a real scene, with a dummy and two actors, in a real ambulance, taken through the side window, but the window was out/open/removed to allow for this angle/view. The "reflections" were added later... possibly from the actual day/scene on 6/25/09. The pic(s) taken that day were only reflections and they were used to layer onto the staged photo for realism.
The face/leaf image was added to the opaque reflection image and that altered pic was layered onto the staged photo original to create the finished ambulance pic(s) that we know.
The purpose of all this trouble is for realism... (those photog's on 6/25/09 really were trying to get the shot, and the image matched the scene) as well as theatrics, and to ensure the "final pic" of MJ was clearly recognizable (money shot) and also for control-- MJ could control what was in the pic and what exactly it showed us (and didn't), because it is an important element in the hoax.
The face/leaf image was added to prove this to us-- ie anyone who cares to look deeper.
In this theory, each finished ambulance pic was individually created from a separate, individual shot of just reflections layered on it's own individual staged ambulance scene original, which is why they are all unique. 4 shots were created (that we are aware of, maybe more) to select the best one, without any inconsistencies present. The money shot was published. The additional copies were "leaked" in the later weeks for the sole purpose of providing us with evidence that would lead us to the truth.
If this theory is accurate, that means anything could have been happening inside that ambulance that left Carrolwood on 6/25/09. Maybe I need to think on this more. This is a new line of "what if"s I haven't delved in before now.
*off to ponder* <!-- s:geek: -->:geek:<!-- s:geek: -->
Bec, I could go with most everything you said, but I think the Ambulance took real MJ to the hospital so he could sit up on the gurney going in. But not the same scenario as the million dollar photo.
Just thinking again about the MJ person, some say is a dummy. Now if this is all a stage set, and the actual photo with overlays was taken well before, ready to be presented as breaking news fresh on June 25, and there's the possibility to me that blue-shirt pony-tail guy is MJ, then I see no reason why that could not be actually MJ on the photo stretcher. If you look at the color of the EMT's tanned skin and the creamy white of the gloves then artificial lighting could produce the light tan color of MJ's skin matching the other MJ pic. Now if you look at the bottom of his left arm (scroll up), you can see the skin gathered in a fold the way skin naturally does with pressure. I don't know if a dummy body would do that unless it was very soft latex. The EMT doesn't have to apply any real pressure to the chest since he just has to pose. The tubes don't have to go internally. I know some thought his left shoulder seemed cut off, but he has really slimmed down and the angle perhaps hides some depth. The so-called bubbles on his nose are just shadows to me. Only the 2 paps, security, and EMT (actors) need be in on the hoax.
Comments
Seriously? And that time was in the United States <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: --> <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: -->
Yes i found out later on today that ist's a backboard it's for protect the patients back and neck it's a hard surface.?
But what i mean by the paramedics seat it looks well at the pic with Michael but doesn't fit the video interior of the ambulance 71, because then the seat of the second paramedic. would be on the left side of Michael, in my opinion correct if i'm wrong please. i hope you understand my point because englisch is not my native language as you have problably discoverd by now <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
I'm thinking it's weird that we only see 2 left arms, almost like they were deliberately trying to remove their rights out of sight.
People in every field of expertise rely on other esteemed experts to establish their pre-suppositions so they can build their own reasonings and beliefs. If those underpinnings are mistaken or lies, then the added reasonings will be false also. This happens in religious, historical, political and other fields of study. If there's a question of MJ being alive or dead, how can the courts decide on if a murder took place. Why do I get the feeling the lawyers and judge involved already know he's alive. They can't be so daft that they would buy all the ridiculous inconsistancies. I think MJ has more professionals and actors helping in this hoax than most realize.
Really? I'm not sure you're right about that but all the links I can find are dead ends I suppose because the news is so 'old' now. There are pics on Youtube that appear to have been put up on 25th and many links that on the Google page look like they're dated 25th, but then aren't dated when you get to the page.
Yes, time differences certainly don't help do they?!!
Try it... <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
If the picture is real it can only have been made inside the ambulance, and for that you need a special camera.
So the guy who took the picture must be speedy gonzales, first getting the speciaal camera, getting in the ambulance, jumping out of the ambulance.
[youtube:37te7hig]
Or a ghost.....
Chappie
Thanks Grace - just what I wanted!
So, my next question, is Ben's version realistic? How they took the pics, sat on them thinking they were just some more 'MJ going to the hospital' pics, found out (from TMZ) that he'd died (2.26pm), picked the 'best' one, contacted ETOnline, agreed and carried out the sale of the pic, and ET published (before 6.00pm). Not personally knowing the workings of the press, but knowing how eager they are to get in first with the big scoops I would assume this is possible in this time frame. So I think I'm clear in my own mind that the generally told story holds good.
Then there's all the other questions ..... !!! My head hurts, so I'm not going to go into them right now!
I am posting this video to show the ambulance window size. This video also shows a guy in a tan shirt filming, who is that? This also shows where the red shirt guy was standing when the ambulance was backing out. The body guards do not seem to panicked. <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> The mark for the window is 1:29-1:33
I realize that every one of us will see things differently and have a different approach when trying to figure out this grand illusion. We will focus on different parts of this famous ambulance pic, lol
Most of us acknowledge it is fake. Some of us agree it was staged before 6/25/2009 and then on the day of death the scene was set to make it look as though the pic was captured that day. I think the red car, the inside of the ambulance, the yellow shirt guy, the red shirt guy, where the wall is, where the leaves are, etc. doesn't matter at this point. That is just a distraction and I believe it is leading us no where. This is not solid evidence...
We are going around in circles focusing on logistics of where the red car was parked and if it would be possible to capture it in a reflection of the ambulance window. Does what I am getting at so far make sense?
The pic can be explained by a non-believer as being real. I think if we want to prove to the non-believers this pic is staged and fake we need better evidence or better arguements. I think this is going to come down to common sense and beyond a reasonable doubt type situation.
Each one of us will have a different opinion on how this was done but, I think some are still focusing on the bait and switch (red car, yellow or red shirt guys) to the point of confusion. I think we should come to a conclusion on this pic and move forward.
We could spend the next month on this topic alone. I think we should start to just sum it up by asking questions and then answer them.
Is that ok?
My opinion is this pic was set up and staged prior to 6/25/2009. I believe it was a wax dummy with a real intubation tube and 2 EMT's being photographed as a starting point to do the next step which would be to release it to a Tabloid T.V. show through a photog because then it makes the death more believeable by the public and the Tabloid show.
There is a reason a Tabloid show was chosen, no one working there would question the pic because it is sensationalism according to the Tabloid show. The pic wouldn't be scrutinized as much. Now if it was given to one of the other news programs like CNN, CBS, ABC maybe they would catch on quicker. Yea I am giving them some credit, lol
Q-The pic we have been shown was not shot on the day of death, agree?
Q-The scene was staged on the day of death to make it look as though it was shot on that day, agree?
IMO-There really was a 911 call made, there really was an ambulance that responded that day, there really was a patient that day but, it wasn't Michael or the wax dummy.
I think we need to seperate those two things. The pic is one thing and the footage of the day is another thing. Those two are not connected to each other by the same day.
I am passing the torch to who ever wants to continue this conclusion, or not.
Peace
<!-- s
If I recall right, we found one being published by CNN with a lady's voice that was cut out in another version. Should be somewhere in the archive. I think we discussed 4 different versions of the call at the time. In one the voice of the caller was louder than the dispatcher. In one somebody said something like "just 1 minute" like in a take.
Anybody else remembers?
Everything was doubled or multiplied. A fake of a fake of a fake. <!-- s
Like someone also said if Ben photoshopped the pic and sold it as genuine he's liable, and if he's proven to be part of a coverup, he could be an accomplice to murder, either way in trouble. Like a game of chess.
For the seats, it does all fit. There's a CPR seat (it has other names) on the right side of the patient, a bench seat on the left side of the patient, and an airway seat at the head of the patient.
According to the interview Ben gave he didn't say how much he was paid. He may have been paid well by Entertainment Tonight or he may have been paid by someone else. He stamers alot when he speaks about that day and he doesn't look the interviewer in the eye. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> Signs of deception. I wasn't there on the day Ben supposedly "sold" this pic so I just have to take his word for it, right? lol
As for Ben selling a fake pic and the Tabloid show bought it hook, line and sinker...
The media lies to us every day, this time around Michael was the one to tell the story his way before they did. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
[youtube:25lyradf]
[youtube:25lyradf]
For me, the ambulance photo parallels Michael's "death" itself - real but fake. Meaning real on the surface, we "see" the image and many accepted it as genuine. But fake because the "MJ" is most likely a dummy and/or the photo was manipulated in someway, whether photoshop or not (I really don't know anything about photoshop so I'm certainly not an expert at recognizing what's photoshopped or not). Like the death, if you take a moment to look beyond what you see, there's so much more to find.
I don't know if the photo was actually taken from outside the ambulance or not. It's possible it was taken before hand and then the actors took their place outside of the ambulance to make it look like that's when it was taken. It's like continuity in movies - there are people whose job is to make sure everything matches up perfectly so the movie flows properly, like it's occurring from start to finish, instead of random scenes filmed out of sequence.
Um...yes, I have something. It's a bit Hitchcockian...but, uh, NOT beyond the genius and "punkmanship" of Michael Jackson, to do this in a most unique way---with a twist. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> Are you thinkin' what I'm thinkin' <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
All <!-- s:idea: -->:idea:<!-- s:idea: --> we have to prove, is that MJ did some kind of a "walk on" IN that video. Point out LIVE MJ in any shot and let the naysayers prove it's NOT him. <!-- s:o -->:o<!-- s:o --> <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
He can even be in disguise---actually, that is better---more beLIEvable---because we KNOW he does this and have documented certain disguises he has already used for this hoax. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
Can anyone say: "Ambulance driver"? <!-- s:P -->:P<!-- s:P --> <!-- s:P -->:P<!-- s:P --> What about "tour bus passenger" ? or, plain ole reflection --not in the original photo, but in the clearcoat of the red car?????? <!-- s
Hey----don't shoot me down, unless we already DID check this, and I skipped that day. <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: --> <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
The leaf/face pattern is seen more clearly when it is "in" the shadow of the paramedic's arm. This is not possible in reality. Shadow blocks light and so therefore prevents the eye (or camera lens) from making out detail.
In this case, the shadow (eliminating light) makes the pattern easier to see.
The pattern is darker then the background, eliminating the possibility that the pattern was created with glow-in-the-dark or luminescent material, would cause the pattern to stand out in shadow.
In a previous post I showed how the image appears to disappear behind the arm and the white cloth that appear in the foreground. I conceded at that time that this would be possible to alter during the edit process. I will also add that it is also possible, if using just the right level of opacity, the image simply wouldn't show up on the arm in such very tiny detail. It is also possible that this was a complete coincidence, and the image did indeed end at that point (this is especially true of the white cloth, less so in regards to the arm).
I have also found a different ambulance pic version since I made that post where the leaf/face image appears to go over the arm. I'll post it as soon as I can.
Conclusion, when comparing the different versions of the ambulance pic, the leaf/face image gets darker and more pronounced and shows up better at the same rate as the red car. As the red car gets darker in each version, so does the leaf/face. The pic where the leaf/face shows up the least is also the pic where the car "reflection" is lightest.
Based on this information alone, I have to conclude that the leaf/face pattern was added in an opaque image layer that also included the red car, and this opaque image was likely layered over the pic of the "scene".
As to why bother altering? Perhaps this pic really does hold all the answers.
Right
Cropped:
and zoomed:
The lowest part of the image visible overlaps the paramedic's lower forearm.
As I said before, your METHOD or APPROACH to investigation is far more important than the ambulance photo or other parts of the hoax. Not merely for investigating this hoax, but for your own good in your entire life, these are extremely valuable skills--and this forum and thread give you an opportunity to learn and practice these skills in an environment that is friendly (or at least should be, and usually is). Part of the good investigation skills here, is learning how to critically examine things from the OPPOSITE perspective than your own belief (which in this case is the hoax). We have a term for people who are unwilling to look at or even consider things from somebody else's perspective, and that term is "prejudice"--and you already know what MJ thinks about prejudice.
For the most part, people have been doing excellent research and have a lot of good questions and/or answers. Some of the very things that I am planning to bring out, have already being discovered and brought out by others--which is great. For example, the timing of when the ambulance photo was released--this point is EXTREMELY important, especially when it comes to the question of hoax versus murder. I will explain why soon.
But even though most comments have been good or excellent, there have been a few complaints recently about this thread. We still have several weeks before the trial, and we're just getting good started on this phase of investigation; if it is too much for you, then please either skip the thread, or else read only and don't comment. I don't mean to exclude anyone who has genuine input on what is being discussed; but please keep your discussion to evidence for or against the topic at hand, and not complaints about the topic itself or the purpose for it, etc. Again, if for any reason this thread is not helping you personally, then just skip it. But please don't interfere with those who are taking it seriously, and who are getting enjoyment from it and/or are practicing good investigation skills.
Last of all, I am the one who started this thread: maybe I should give a little more of an overview, so people will have a little better idea of the bigger picture that we are working on piecing together here. The ambulance picture is a major key to unlocking the entire hoax--how and who, etc. It's not only important to understand IF the photo is fake, but HOW it was faked. Once we understand how (staged in the same amublance, but another day; or staged in another ambulance on another day; or not staged at all, but Photoshop fabricated; or not fake at all, but 100% real; etc)--then the rest of the events should fall into place relatively easily.
For example if the paramedics were involved with staging the photo before 6-25-2009, then they were most likely also in on the hoax itself. But if the ambulance photo was 100% real, or perhaps real but slightly edited in Photoshop, then maybe the paramedics are not in on the hoax at all. Once we understand whether or not the paramedics are in on the hoax, then many of the other pieces should fall into place--such as who or what was in the ambulance on 6-25-2009 (MJ, or dummy, or nothing, etc). There is also the question of whether the entire court and courtroom is staged, with the judge and jury and lawyers all being confidential agreement actors--or is there perhaps just a few key people who know what's really going on.
If the answer to these questions doesn't interest you, that's your perfect right; but kindly allow those of us who are interested to continue our investigation.
Thanks. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
The pic is of a real scene, with a dummy and two actors, in a real ambulance, taken through the side window, but the window was out/open/removed to allow for this angle/view. The "reflections" were added later... possibly from the actual day/scene on 6/25/09. The pic(s) taken that day were only reflections and they were used to layer onto the staged photo for realism.
The face/leaf image was added to the opaque reflection image and that altered pic was layered onto the staged photo original to create the finished ambulance pic(s) that we know.
The purpose of all this trouble is for realism... (those photog's on 6/25/09 really were trying to get the shot, and the image matched the scene) as well as theatrics, and to ensure the "final pic" of MJ was clearly recognizable (money shot) and also for control-- MJ could control what was in the pic and what exactly it showed us (and didn't), because it is an important element in the hoax.
The face/leaf image was added to prove this to us-- ie anyone who cares to look deeper.
In this theory, each finished ambulance pic was individually created from a separate, individual shot of just reflections layered on it's own individual staged ambulance scene original, which is why they are all unique. 4 shots were created (that we are aware of, maybe more) to select the best one, without any inconsistencies present. The money shot was published. The additional copies were "leaked" in the later weeks for the sole purpose of providing us with evidence that would lead us to the truth.
If this theory is accurate, that means anything could have been happening inside that ambulance that left Carrolwood on 6/25/09. Maybe I need to think on this more. This is a new line of "what if"s I haven't delved in before now.
*off to ponder* <!-- s:geek: -->:geek:<!-- s:geek: -->
Just thinking again about the MJ person, some say is a dummy. Now if this is all a stage set, and the actual photo with overlays was taken well before, ready to be presented as breaking news fresh on June 25, and there's the possibility to me that blue-shirt pony-tail guy is MJ, then I see no reason why that could not be actually MJ on the photo stretcher. If you look at the color of the EMT's tanned skin and the creamy white of the gloves then artificial lighting could produce the light tan color of MJ's skin matching the other MJ pic. Now if you look at the bottom of his left arm (scroll up), you can see the skin gathered in a fold the way skin naturally does with pressure. I don't know if a dummy body would do that unless it was very soft latex. The EMT doesn't have to apply any real pressure to the chest since he just has to pose. The tubes don't have to go internally. I know some thought his left shoulder seemed cut off, but he has really slimmed down and the angle perhaps hides some depth. The so-called bubbles on his nose are just shadows to me. Only the 2 paps, security, and EMT (actors) need be in on the hoax.