If the pic is proved real then that "thing" (time warped 1987 MJ) pictured in it went to UCLA on 6/25/09. That means we have to get a dummy into UCLA and try to deal with disposing of it as well. Hot item, a life size MJ dummy on 6/25/09 no doubt... risky and tricky.
Getting into the lighter side of things... dummies and dead men don't sit up on stretchers (UCLA gif), nor in helicopters, and they certainly don't jump out of coroner's vans <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Hows this.
If the pic is proved altered (fake) then that scene wasn't occurring inside that ambulance on 6/25/09, which means anything could have been going on in there... even a perfectly fine MJ taking a joy ride in an ambulance just like he did 9282 days previous.
Then he certainly could sit up on the stretcher, sit up in the helicopter (and would need the sheet instead of a body bag so he could breathe), and then at the end, jump out of the coroner's van.
<!-- s --><!-- s --> The scenario is starting to play like a movie in my mind! But maybe I'm on the wrong track. <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> <!-- s --><!-- s -->
If the pic is proved real then that "thing" (time warped 1987 MJ) pictured in it went to UCLA on 6/25/09. That means we have to get a dummy into UCLA and try to deal with disposing of it as well. Hot item, a life size MJ dummy on 6/25/09 no doubt... risky and tricky.
Getting into the lighter side of things... dummies and dead men don't sit up on stretchers (UCLA gif), nor in helicopters, and they certainly don't jump out of coroner's vans <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Hows this.
If the pic is proved altered (fake) then that scene wasn't occurring inside that ambulance on 6/25/09, which means anything could have been going on in there... even a perfectly fine MJ taking a joy ride in an ambulance just like he did 9282 days previous.
Then he certainly could sit up on the stretcher, sit up in the helicopter (and would need the sheet instead of a body bag so he could breathe), and then at the end, jump out of the coroner's van.
Add to it Mjonmind's theory about MJ disguised as the ponytailed EMT and it's gold. That way both the legs and no legs sides to the stretcher debate win. Who cares, legs or no legs, that's MJ <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Gold!
Ps. the man inside the fence, lifting the stretcher into the ambulance, blue shirt, pony tail. MJ must have left Carrolwood as a paramedic and went into UCLA dressed that way too. There was probably nothing on the stretcher. Paramedics are actors and the 911 call is fake.
Chappie I think you have a point here.....I was about to go to my car and try to take a picture of the inside from the outside <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Maybe we should try to recreate the scene of that moment and take a pic in the same conditions, but It has to be the same light like that day, see what we get.
From your pic I see the camera caught only the reflection, or am I wrong?!
After reading TS's latest post I'm going to take off my hoax hat and adopt a 'beginner's mind', go with the idea that MJ is dead and see if I can logically make events fit that scenario.
(Incidentally, I've done this many, many times over the months and never got very far before coming to the conclusion he's alive, but this time I'm REALLY going to try!)
So with regards to the ambulance pic, I'm happy that TS pointed out the importance of the timing of its release as that was really bugging me yesterday!
Chappie I think you have a point here.....I was about to go to my car and try to take a picture of the inside from the outside <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Maybe we should try to recreate the scene of that moment and take a pic in the same conditions, but It has to be the same light like that day, see what we get.
From your pic I see the camera caught only the reflection, or am I wrong?!
No, you are right....
Just try it.... <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
I am going to do it again with a dummy inside
Just thinking out loud again.... shouldn't we take into consideration the weather in order to find out when that picture's been taken/created? The sun was shining on the 25th so if they staged the picture before they must have been sure that the sun would be shining on D-Day... i know that we more or less can know in advance what will be the weather of tomorrow but well it's never 100% accurate and given the importance of the hoax that kind of detail sure was important... so i was imagining if it actually rained on the 25th...
To start with, not even Ben was clear with the story, he had two versions:
#1- "An ambulance comes out, we don´t know who is in it. You know, maybe it´s Michael maybe it´s his family member or his staff or something. So we go up to the window of the ambulance and try to get some pictures. You know, just put the camera angainst the thing and get some pictures. You know, maybe it´s a good story for us and it came out again, we don´t know who is in it at that point"
vs
#2 -"When I arrived around 12:40 the ambulance was inside the gates, there was a fire truck that was parked outside on the street. I was doing video and I could see the call screen and it said 50 year old man not breathing. At a certin point I could see the paramedics exiting the house with a stretcher. I moved closer to the gate, it was a difficult shot to get but I could see that it was Michael"
We don´t know vs it was Michael <!-- s --><!-- s --> come on!
And, when did TMZ know about it? <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
Ben has picures with MJ before 2009 <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
What a koinkidink that Ben was there just at the right time, in the right spot taking "da pic" <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: --> Sure....
No pic ever existed from that moment June 25 2009, the pic has been either created from scratch or shopped from an existing pic with "a person" inside an ambulance and that person could have been Michael in the past. We know he collapsed during some concert rehersals before <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Also, it was said that during March 2009, Michael suffered from "something" at the London Hotel. But the paramedics do wear a batch fom LA, so it could not be at that time either, unless, is shopped of course.
That pic is shopped to fit in to the June 2009 theory.
Just thinking out loud again.... shouldn't we take into consideration the weather in order to find out when that picture's been taken/created? The sun was shining on the 25th so if they staged the picture before they must have been sure that the sun would be shining on D-Day... i know that we more or less can know in advance what will be the weather of tomorrow but well it's never 100% accurate and given the importance of the hoax that kind of detail sure was important... so i was imagining if it actually rained on the 25th...
For the ambulance pic that is not important, rain or sun....
Sarahli, in June how many days in LA are typically sunny, then it's all about probability. I'm sure they worked that out.
I'm just continuing on the MJ body, and noticing the reddish mark on the bottom half of his shoulder.
<!-- m -->http://xscapemj.blogspot.com/2010/04/an ... art-1.html<!-- m -->
Lividity: settling of the blood in the lower portion of the body causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin. If the area blanched on pressure, it is said that the lividity is not fixed & you could estimate that the person has been dead for about 2 to 10 hrs.
Here is a breakdown of events that happen after heart stops (death) : please note that the time given are approximate
1- The heart stops
2- The skin gets tight & grey in color
3- All the muscles relax
4- The Bladder & bowels empty ( also men will get an erection)
5- The Body's temperature will typically drop 1.5 degrees F. per hour unless outside environment is a factor. The liver is the organ that stays warmest the longest, & this temperature is used to establish the time of death if the body is found within proper time frame.
After 30 minutes you'll start seeing:
6- The skin gets purple & waxy
7- The lips, finger & toe nail fade into a pale color or turn white as the blood leaves.
8- Blood pools at the lowest parts of the body leaving a dark purple-black stain called lividity
9- Hands & feet turn blue
10- eyes start to sink into the skull
After 4 hours you'll start seeing:
11- Rigor mortis starts to set in
12- The purpling of the skin & pooling of the blood continues
13- Rigor mortis begins to tighten the muscles fo about another 24 hrs, then will reverse & the body will return into a limp state.
What a GREAT thread! I was reading and thinking until steam left my ears <!-- s --><!-- s --> I have the following thoughts in mind.
I agree with those who say, the leaves and the red car are layers added to the 'original' picture. What indicates this is the sharp line ABOVE the leaves - the leaves suddenly end. Like the picture was cut off above the leaves and THEN added as a layer.
So, what I want to say about the leaves is: the leaves are lying on the ground. That indicates fall (autumn) to me. But we are supposed to have summer time. ? There is also the question: does a high profile community like Holmby Hills/Beverly Hills, etc. leave leaves on the ground until the end of June? <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: --> i.e. never care to remove them? It's something no community with rich inhabitants in our country would do. You want to keep up the 'clean image'. and so take away most leaves when all leaves have fallen.
Question: What was MJ doing around that time (fall 2008)? News about his comeback, CD birthday party, ...
All hell will break lose? Well ... it definitely has: a hoax was and is surfacing *lol* I don't know why, but I have made a connection to her. But I could be way off <!-- s --><!-- s --> <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) --> ... AND of course it's not explaining any how and who of the hoax ... still thinking.
The face: I can see why some see Michael in it. I happen to see Liza Minelli. The eyes, the nose and the lips, the tilting of the head all look all to familiar to me as Liza. And then it does make me think about her having said: All hell will break lose. I don't know how Liza plays into this, if at all, I have to look further into it. But I am like most, trying to SEE but maybe too hard.
PS:
1. Was the picture taken on June 25 for real and the fall image layer indicating fall added after?
2. Was the picture staged on June 25 with the image layer indicating fall added after?
3. Was the picture staged sometime in Fall 2008 and the leaves as of fall are correct?
... and still thinking ... but no answer <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Chappie you said an interesting thing: we have to see in the picture the reflection of the person who took it!!
I see your pics have your reflection, at least we can see your arm with the camera......
No such thing in Ambulance pictures.
In your last pic I can see the dummy, but not very clear, I mean the face is not clear at all.
I can also see the white sheet you covered it with, at least I think I see it <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> but nothing else inside the van.
I know it’s a controversial one and many don’t agree, but I had a thought to look at the theory that it was a cadaver that the paramedics came to attend that day at Carrolwood on 25/06/2009.
It may be worth looking at just for a different theory or perspective on the ambulance picture...
If it were a cadaver then presumably that would mean the ambo officers who responded on the ACTUAL day of 25/06/2009 are not in on the hoax…remember again they apparently said they thought Michael had been dead for a while when they arrived, it didn’t look like MJ and all the other things regarding the bedroom heating etc which has already been discussed alot.
So, they take this person away in the ambulance and the people we see in the vid outside Carrolwood on 25/06/2009 (red shirt guy/yellow shirt guy…one of whom perhaps is Ben E.) take some pics through the window to get the “money” shot and manage to photograph some REALLY good reflections of the street background on the ambo window ie the red car, the leaves, the gutter, the wall etc…but maybe that is it…they get nothing inside the ambulance.
Months earlier …maybe even a year earlier, MJ has already staged and photographed the inside of this ambulance scene with either himself acting as “dying” on the stretcher or it is a wax dummy. Which would mean that these ambo officers we see in the released pics are actors...…heck they may even be Charlie Sheen and Mel Gibson for all we know <!-- s --><!-- s --> …afterall, we can’t see their faces in these pictures.
Then on the day of 25/06/2009 those other photos are taken through the ambulance window when the cadaver is taken away with real the ambo officers and the red shirt/yellow shirt guy get really good pics of all the background reflections on the ambulance window.
These reflections on the ambulance window taken the day of 25/06/2009 are then quickly layered by skilled Photoshop experts onto to the staged photographs of MJ “dying” taken months earlier. We won’t see the cadaver as that would be edited out OR maybe the photographers didn’t even manage to get a clear photo inside to show a cadaver and really only did manage to get the reflections on the ambulance window on 25/06/2009.
This composite picture is very quickly released to the press as Michael “dying” in the ambulance….maybe added to it are some other hidden images as well, like some faces made of leaves..... just for fun <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Where MJ is on 25/06/2009 ? .....maybe at the airport like Jermaine said or somewhere else yet to be figured out and the Directing of the short film on 25/09/2009 outside Carrolwood was done by.....maybe.... Prince after his UCLA lessons <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Anyway – that is as far as I have managed to get.....and it's all supposition anyway.
These photos could be the same person, then the photo of the ambulance could have been taken before June 25, which do not understand is that Michael would the risk to go to the hospital.
I'm wondering if people's head goes into an ambulance first??
This is from TMZ with Joan Collins, and her head is in first.
<!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2011/03/02/joan-coll<!-- m --> ... air-party/
That glass is not polarized and ambulance lights are ON <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
If I put myself in the place of believing the ambulance did pick up a frail old dead man on the 25th and transport him to UCLA, why did the attending paramedics not say something was amiss when THE photo appeared showing a clearly recognizable and youthful MJ. It doesn't seem logical that they would just keep quiet about such big news unless they are part of the hoax.
The version TS zoomed, image appears to go behind arm:
Different version zoomed, image overlaps arm:
Staged shot:
Lets say, photogs on 6/25/09 at the scene captured reflections on film that were layered onto a staged shot to create the final product.
That way the weather and light conditions matched the scene, as well as placement of the red car.
(side note, anyone notice how the sunlight reflected through the trees portion of the reflections appear to be a line of "fire" emanating from the crown of MJs head?)<
story for another post.
Add to it Mjonmind's theory about MJ disguised as the ponytailed EMT and it's gold. That way both the legs and no legs sides to the stretcher debate win. Who cares, legs or no legs, that's MJ <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Gold!
Ps. the man inside the fence, lifting the stretcher into the ambulance, blue shirt, pony tail. MJ must have left Carrolwood as a paramedic and went into UCLA dressed that way too. There was probably nothing on the stretcher. Paramedics are actors and the 911 call is fake.
Genius!!
I am so impressed and feel priviledged to be in such intelligent and witty company! You guys are all doing awesome at coming up with coherent theories. I haven't contributed much lately to the investigation but have been following all of your ideas intently and I have to say I'm more confident than ever that MJ's death was..is..100% a hoax! This is so exciting <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
Without prejudice to anything anyone has mentioned in this thread...
How on earth could someone NOT recognize MJ on that pic, even if a great part of his face is obscured?
Either the paramedics are in on it, or they didnt see MJ's dead body or this pic is fake. Or, in fact, all three options are correct <!-- s:-D -->:-D<!-- s:-D --> Which is applying pure logic to the hoax. If this is a hoax, they must be correct. Am I making sense? LOL
Comments
If the pic is proved real then that "thing" (time warped 1987 MJ) pictured in it went to UCLA on 6/25/09. That means we have to get a dummy into UCLA and try to deal with disposing of it as well. Hot item, a life size MJ dummy on 6/25/09 no doubt... risky and tricky.
Getting into the lighter side of things... dummies and dead men don't sit up on stretchers (UCLA gif), nor in helicopters, and they certainly don't jump out of coroner's vans <!-- s
Hows this.
If the pic is proved altered (fake) then that scene wasn't occurring inside that ambulance on 6/25/09, which means anything could have been going on in there... even a perfectly fine MJ taking a joy ride in an ambulance just like he did 9282 days previous.
Then he certainly could sit up on the stretcher, sit up in the helicopter (and would need the sheet instead of a body bag so he could breathe), and then at the end, jump out of the coroner's van.
This makes sense!
How fun <!-- s
Great thinking. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
Gold!
Ps. the man inside the fence, lifting the stretcher into the ambulance, blue shirt, pony tail. MJ must have left Carrolwood as a paramedic and went into UCLA dressed that way too. There was probably nothing on the stretcher. Paramedics are actors and the 911 call is fake.
Maybe we should try to recreate the scene of that moment and take a pic in the same conditions, but It has to be the same light like that day, see what we get.
From your pic I see the camera caught only the reflection, or am I wrong?!
(Incidentally, I've done this many, many times over the months and never got very far before coming to the conclusion he's alive, but this time I'm REALLY going to try!)
So with regards to the ambulance pic, I'm happy that TS pointed out the importance of the timing of its release as that was really bugging me yesterday!
Now, unfortunately, I need to go to work!
No, you are right....
Just try it.... <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
I am going to do it again with a dummy inside
The dummy..... <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
#1- "An ambulance comes out, we don´t know who is in it. You know, maybe it´s Michael maybe it´s his family member or his staff or something. So we go up to the window of the ambulance and try to get some pictures. You know, just put the camera angainst the thing and get some pictures. You know, maybe it´s a good story for us and it came out again, we don´t know who is in it at that point"
vs
#2 -"When I arrived around 12:40 the ambulance was inside the gates, there was a fire truck that was parked outside on the street. I was doing video and I could see the call screen and it said 50 year old man not breathing. At a certin point I could see the paramedics exiting the house with a stretcher. I moved closer to the gate, it was a difficult shot to get but I could see that it was Michael"
We don´t know vs it was Michael <!-- s
And, when did TMZ know about it? <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
Ben has picures with MJ before 2009 <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
What a koinkidink that Ben was there just at the right time, in the right spot taking "da pic" <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: --> Sure....
No pic ever existed from that moment June 25 2009, the pic has been either created from scratch or shopped from an existing pic with "a person" inside an ambulance and that person could have been Michael in the past. We know he collapsed during some concert rehersals before <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Also, it was said that during March 2009, Michael suffered from "something" at the London Hotel. But the paramedics do wear a batch fom LA, so it could not be at that time either, unless, is shopped of course.
That pic is shopped to fit in to the June 2009 theory.
For the ambulance pic that is not important, rain or sun....
Sarahli, in June how many days in LA are typically sunny, then it's all about probability. I'm sure they worked that out.
I'm just continuing on the MJ body, and noticing the reddish mark on the bottom half of his shoulder.
I agree with those who say, the leaves and the red car are layers added to the 'original' picture. What indicates this is the sharp line ABOVE the leaves - the leaves suddenly end. Like the picture was cut off above the leaves and THEN added as a layer.
So, what I want to say about the leaves is: the leaves are lying on the ground. That indicates fall (autumn) to me. But we are supposed to have summer time. ? There is also the question: does a high profile community like Holmby Hills/Beverly Hills, etc. leave leaves on the ground until the end of June? <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: --> i.e. never care to remove them? It's something no community with rich inhabitants in our country would do. You want to keep up the 'clean image'. and so take away most leaves when all leaves have fallen.
Question: What was MJ doing around that time (fall 2008)? News about his comeback, CD birthday party, ...
All hell will break lose? Well ... it definitely has: a hoax was and is surfacing *lol* I don't know why, but I have made a connection to her. But I could be way off <!-- s
The face: I can see why some see Michael in it. I happen to see Liza Minelli. The eyes, the nose and the lips, the tilting of the head all look all to familiar to me as Liza. And then it does make me think about her having said: All hell will break lose. I don't know how Liza plays into this, if at all, I have to look further into it. But I am like most, trying to SEE but maybe too hard.
OK, so far my thoughts.
Lova ya guys!
1. Was the picture taken on June 25 for real and the fall image layer indicating fall added after?
2. Was the picture staged on June 25 with the image layer indicating fall added after?
3. Was the picture staged sometime in Fall 2008 and the leaves as of fall are correct?
... and still thinking ... but no answer <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> <!-- s
White one is 1.5 meter next to van.
I see your pics have your reflection, at least we can see your arm with the camera......
No such thing in Ambulance pictures.
In your last pic I can see the dummy, but not very clear, I mean the face is not clear at all.
I can also see the white sheet you covered it with, at least I think I see it <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> but nothing else inside the van.
It may be worth looking at just for a different theory or perspective on the ambulance picture...
If it were a cadaver then presumably that would mean the ambo officers who responded on the ACTUAL day of 25/06/2009 are not in on the hoax…remember again they apparently said they thought Michael had been dead for a while when they arrived, it didn’t look like MJ and all the other things regarding the bedroom heating etc which has already been discussed alot.
So, they take this person away in the ambulance and the people we see in the vid outside Carrolwood on 25/06/2009 (red shirt guy/yellow shirt guy…one of whom perhaps is Ben E.) take some pics through the window to get the “money” shot and manage to photograph some REALLY good reflections of the street background on the ambo window ie the red car, the leaves, the gutter, the wall etc…but maybe that is it…they get nothing inside the ambulance.
Months earlier …maybe even a year earlier, MJ has already staged and photographed the inside of this ambulance scene with either himself acting as “dying” on the stretcher or it is a wax dummy. Which would mean that these ambo officers we see in the released pics are actors...…heck they may even be Charlie Sheen and Mel Gibson for all we know <!-- s
Then on the day of 25/06/2009 those other photos are taken through the ambulance window when the cadaver is taken away with real the ambo officers and the red shirt/yellow shirt guy get really good pics of all the background reflections on the ambulance window.
These reflections on the ambulance window taken the day of 25/06/2009 are then quickly layered by skilled Photoshop experts onto to the staged photographs of MJ “dying” taken months earlier. We won’t see the cadaver as that would be edited out OR maybe the photographers didn’t even manage to get a clear photo inside to show a cadaver and really only did manage to get the reflections on the ambulance window on 25/06/2009.
This composite picture is very quickly released to the press as Michael “dying” in the ambulance….maybe added to it are some other hidden images as well, like some faces made of leaves..... just for fun <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Where MJ is on 25/06/2009 ? .....maybe at the airport like Jermaine said or somewhere else yet to be figured out and the Directing of the short film on 25/09/2009 outside Carrolwood was done by.....maybe.... Prince after his UCLA lessons <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Anyway – that is as far as I have managed to get.....and it's all supposition anyway.
These photos could be the same person, then the photo of the ambulance could have been taken before June 25, which do not understand is that Michael would the risk to go to the hospital.
This is from TMZ with Joan Collins, and her head is in first.
<!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2011/03/02/joan-coll ... air-party/<!-- m -->
That glass is not polarized and ambulance lights are ON <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Different version zoomed, image overlaps arm:
Staged shot:
Lets say, photogs on 6/25/09 at the scene captured reflections on film that were layered onto a staged shot to create the final product.
That way the weather and light conditions matched the scene, as well as placement of the red car.
(side note, anyone notice how the sunlight reflected through the trees portion of the reflections appear to be a line of "fire" emanating from the crown of MJs head?)<
story for another post.
Genius!!
I am so impressed and feel priviledged to be in such intelligent and witty company! You guys are all doing awesome at coming up with coherent theories. I haven't contributed much lately to the investigation but have been following all of your ideas intently and I have to say I'm more confident than ever that MJ's death was..is..100% a hoax! This is so exciting <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
How on earth could someone NOT recognize MJ on that pic, even if a great part of his face is obscured?
Either the paramedics are in on it, or they didnt see MJ's dead body or this pic is fake. Or, in fact, all three options are correct <!-- s:-D -->:-D<!-- s:-D --> Which is applying pure logic to the hoax. If this is a hoax, they must be correct. Am I making sense? LOL