I keep saying this, but I feel like people are just stepping over me with, "yeah, yeah, yeah, WHAT ELSE you got??" Trust me, THIS IS IT. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
It is because Michael Jackson is THE GREATEST ENTERTAINER WHO EVER LIVED. Period. That's all I got. It's all I need. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
I'm hearing you Its her! If we just think of this one thing, that MJ is THE GREATEST ENTERTAINER WHO EVER LIVED, everything else just falls into place.
Yet another wonderful post - thank you - I always look forward to reading your thoughts!
If knowing that MJ is GREATEST ENTERTAINER WHO EVER LIVED is enough for you, I respect that opinion. I can't agree with the theory, though. The main problem I have with it is that you seem to select the facts that seem to support your theory/theories, but ignore a lot of other facts.
Here are some comments and/or questions:
1. You seem to assume that Michael's TALENT would not, by itself, have been enough to secure him that spot? I believe it would have... The Motown 25 performance put MJ into the stratosphere, and it was based on sheer, raw, unbelievable talent. This is not someone who needed gimmicks to keep the public's attention! If anything, the later years in Michael's life detracted from his image and reputation, and made him fall into semi-irrelevance. Until June 2009, that is.
2. What is "fame" worth, if people talk mainly about your personal life and not your music or art? Do you think it's cool for every positive statement about the artist MJ to be followed by a caveat (BUT...)? Do you think MJ thought "any news is good news"? He didn't strike me as that kind of person, and I think I'd be a little disappointed if it turns out he actively pursued controversy of the dangerous/ugly sort...
IF Michael wanted spice, wouldn't it have been enough to bring up the numerous lawsuits he was involved in, and the numerous depositions he participated in? He could have talked about the Billie Jeans, the stalkers, the copyright lawsuits (which he all won), the fact that he put decoys in cars to escape the paparazzi... There's a German blog that says that MJ was involved in 1500 lawsuits and gave testimony about 1000 times!
<!-- m -->http://www.mjfriendship.de/en/index.php ... 7&Itemid=9<!-- m -->
Even if that's an exaggeration, I still think the numbers were pretty huge. That stuff takes TIME and energy and is bound to take a toll after a while. In 2005 MJ had to put his life on hold for several months and get his ass to court every day (he allegedly woke up at 4 AM), regardless of how sick or ill he was!
3. In my experience, MJ's trial didn't spark any serious debate about child molestation, pedophilia, church abuse, or the lies being told in custody courts. Please give me examples if you've seen or heard of such associations made by people... The only debate I've seen was "Did MJ or didn't he? Was he or wasn't he?" Church abuse has been discussed quite a bit in the mainstream media in the past 5-10 years, so if anything has been done about it I think that's the reason - not MJ's trial.
BESIDES: Wouldn't there have been better, and less costly, ways to raise awareness? I mean, many people aren't even talking about the media bias (anti-celebrities) or about police brutality in MJ's case, and those are the most obvious issues that came to light.
4. If MJ orchestrated this, why in 2003-05, when he had 3 kids, and not earlier, say between 1995-2000? Would Michael put his parents, siblings AND children through the wringer just to outdo criminals and chase martyrdom or a pipe dream? What does this even have to do with being an ENTERTAINER? Catering to the lowest common denominator?! Shouldn't MJ be above that? To me this is not compatible with how much of a perfectionist he was as an artist... He wanted to put out QUALITY, not just anything.
5. You hypothesized that MJ may never have lived at Neverland. Well, there are many videos showing him welcome people there, so I don't believe this. He might not have lived there continuously, but he did spend time there. And he spent a lot of money on Neverland!
6. "Rhinoceros skin" comment: An example of being selective about the facts. MJ also said he was human, he was hurt by the Wacko Jacko label, he didn't like the Eminem video mocking him & didn't want his kids to see it (or any of the other trash out there) etc... Looking at how fragile MJ became during the trial, I don't believe he was completely immune to everything!
7. I've never seen the "Architectural Digest" article you mentioned, and can't comment on it. Is this about Neverland? I'd read that Neverland was completely Michael's vision, and he created exactly what he wanted. He didn't just move into a place. I'll stand corrected if you can provide evidence to the contrary.
Definitely truthprevails you impress me <!-- s --><!-- s -->... I also don't think that Michael hoaxed that as well... on that batshit "documentary" I just felt that Michael did not give a damn about what the haters could say and that he was brave enough to stand by what he believes in no matter what.
Definitely truthprevails you impress me <!-- s --><!-- s -->... I also don't think that Michael hoaxed that as well... on that batshit "documentary" I just felt that Michael did not give a damn about what the haters could say and that he was brave enough to stand by what he believes in no matter what.
Thanks, Sarahli! That is indeed what I ultimately decided about that "documentary", that it wasn't orchestrated by Michael. I am, however, intrigued by the fact that MJ never sued Bashir for defamation/libel. There must have been a contract between MJ and Bashir, and if Bashir disobeyed one of the rules Michael could have gone after him. I do wonder why he didn't. <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: --> (One possible explanation, I guess, is that after June 2005 he just wanted to move on and never see Batshit's face again.)
Definitely truthprevails you impress me <!-- s --><!-- s -->... I also don't think that Michael hoaxed that as well... on that batshit "documentary" I just felt that Michael did not give a damn about what the haters could say and that he was brave enough to stand by what he believes in no matter what.
Thanks, Sarahli! That is indeed what I ultimately decided about that "documentary", that it wasn't orchestrated by Michael. I am, however, intrigued by the fact that MJ never sued Bashir for defamation/libel. There must have been a contract between MJ and Bashir, and if Bashir disobeyed one of the rules Michael could have gone after him. I do wonder why he didn't. <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: --> (One possible explanation, I guess, is that after June 2005 he just wanted to move on and never see Batshit's face again.)
Good question all I remember is the counter-attack documentary showing how batshit distorted the truth and what he said to Michael when the camera was off. Then it went to trial so maybe Michael had enough when it all ended and did not want to prosecute and bring all that in court again for maybe a disappointing issue. Could he rely on the system?
If knowing that MJ is GREATEST ENTERTAINER WHO EVER LIVED is enough for you, I respect that opinion. I can't agree with the theory, though. The main problem I have with it is that you seem to select the facts that seem to support your theory/theories, but ignore a lot of other facts.
Here are some comments and/or questions:
1. You seem to assume that Michael's TALENT would not, by itself, have been enough to secure him that spot? I believe it would have... The Motown 25 performance put MJ into the stratosphere, and it was based on sheer, raw, unbelievable talent. This is not someone who needed gimmicks to keep the public's attention! If anything, the later years in Michael's life detracted from his image and reputation, and made him fall into semi-irrelevance. Until June 2009, that is.
2. What is "fame" worth, if people talk mainly about your personal life and not your music or art? Do you think it's cool for every positive statement about the artist MJ to be followed by a caveat (BUT...)? Do you think MJ thought "any news is good news"? He didn't strike me as that kind of person, and I think I'd be a little disappointed if it turns out he actively pursued controversy of the dangerous/ugly sort...
IF Michael wanted spice, wouldn't it have been enough to bring up the numerous lawsuits he was involved in, and the numerous depositions he participated in? He could have talked about the Billie Jeans, the stalkers, the copyright lawsuits (which he all won), the fact that he put decoys in cars to escape the paparazzi... There's a German blog that says that MJ was involved in 1500 lawsuits and gave testimony about 1000 times!
<!-- m -->http://www.mjfriendship.de/en/index.php ... 7&Itemid=9<!-- m -->
Even if that's an exaggeration, I still think the numbers were pretty huge. That stuff takes TIME and energy and is bound to take a toll after a while. In 2005 MJ had to put his life on hold for several months and get his ass to court every day (he allegedly woke up at 4 AM), regardless of how sick or ill he was!
3. In my experience, MJ's trial didn't spark any serious debate about child molestation, pedophilia, church abuse, or the lies being told in custody courts. Please give me examples if you've seen or heard of such associations made by people... The only debate I've seen was "Did MJ or didn't he? Was he or wasn't he?" Church abuse has been discussed quite a bit in the mainstream media in the past 5-10 years, so if anything has been done about it I think that's the reason - not MJ's trial.
BESIDES: Wouldn't there have been better, and less costly, ways to raise awareness? I mean, many people aren't even talking about the media bias (anti-celebrities) or about police brutality in MJ's case, and those are the most obvious issues that came to light.
4. If MJ orchestrated this, why in 2003-05, when he had 3 kids, and not earlier, say between 1995-2000? Would Michael put his parents, siblings AND children through the wringer just to outdo criminals and chase martyrdom or a pipe dream? What does this even have to do with being an ENTERTAINER? Catering to the lowest common denominator?! Shouldn't MJ be above that? To me this is not compatible with how much of a perfectionist he was as an artist... He wanted to put out QUALITY, not just anything.
5. You hypothesized that MJ may never have lived at Neverland. Well, there are many videos showing him welcome people there, so I don't believe this. He might not have lived there continuously, but he did spend time there. And he spent a lot of money on Neverland!
6. "Rhinoceros skin" comment: An example of being selective about the facts. MJ also said he was human, he was hurt by the Wacko Jacko label, he didn't like the Eminem video mocking him & didn't want his kids to see it (or any of the other trash out there) etc... Looking at how fragile MJ became during the trial, I don't believe he was completely immune to everything!
7. I've never seen the "Architectural Digest" article you mentioned, and can't comment on it. Is this about Neverland? I'd read that Neverland was completely Michael's vision, and he created exactly what he wanted. He didn't just move into a place. I'll stand corrected if you can provide evidence to the contrary.
Did two thoughts also cross other minds?
That one and the same person may be posting under different names (IPs etc.) and
that several persons may be posting under one and the same name?
We have witnessed change of writing style and we thought to have read some style before, right?
I even was reminded sometimes of male thinking being replaced by female thinking. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
In case of any doubts, the question "what for?" is the essential basic one and delivers already the first answers by only being asked.
Isn´t to have different accounts against the rules of this forum?
Are you talking about one member or many members doing this?
I am not talking about this place only.
We have seen strange appearances on all meadows we walked.[/quote
You are right ! many people over the internet have multiple accounts , even multiple personality's...It's sad to know this because i like honest people with honest opinions.But we aren't all the same.We just have to be careful . Hugs my friends !
Yes me too.....
I still have trouble to find time for one account ......
I miss phoenix eyes lately..... busy somewhere else BlackJack <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> ?
You called...Gina!?
I've just been a bit busy trying to get ready for X-mas...... it is still going ahead, right?.... what with the hoax n' all ....I haven't missed an important TS update that says no 2nd hoaxmas...ooops....X-mas allowed during hoaxtime....lol. Seriously, I'll be back at work shortly.........thanks for remembering me!
You called...Gina!?
I've just been a bit busy trying to get ready for X-mas...... it is still going ahead, right?.... what with the hoax n' all ....I haven't missed an important TS update that says no 2nd hoaxmas...ooops....X-mas allowed during hoaxtime....lol. Seriously, I'll be back at work shortly.........thanks for remembering me!
No 2nd hoaxmas during hoaxtime <!-- s --><!-- s --> !!
No TS didn't say this....... you know he also loves to leave something to the mistery <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
But wouldn't it be cool if we won't be lonely this Christmas <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> ?
Oh, and welcome back stranger <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
PS: you should sleep at this hour...take care <!-- s --><!-- s --> and take it easy with the work....
If knowing that MJ is GREATEST ENTERTAINER WHO EVER LIVED is enough for you, I respect that opinion. I can't agree with the theory, though. The main problem I have with it is that you seem to select the facts that seem to support your theory/theories, but ignore a lot of other facts.
OK, I get it now, <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> why I haven't been able to make you see what I see. I am not "ignoring a lot of other facts". I've thrown them out as NON-facts. "Michael Jackson, King of Pop, Rock and Soul", is an ACT. A headliner; an ingenius Illusion. This is why I asked you if you saw the movie The Prestige. The reason hardly no one caught on without him SHOWING us this, is because, just like in The Prestige, the "Act" continues 24/7.
Try to filter your facts as I do. Pay attention to things like this: When "Michael Jackson" said things like, "That hurt my widdo feelings", EVERYONE sympathized, and THOUGHT it was the real MJ expressing hurt from being insulted and victimized. but it was the fake persona he gave his fake paper Doll. EVERYBODY assumed that if Michael Jackson was offstage, he was "himself", the real MJ. We all assumed he was telling us the truth about himself, because he was on downtime from being the Icon.This guy realized early early on, that he was TOO big and there was going to be no such thing as "downtime "from being
" <!-- s:o -->:o<!-- s:o --> Michael Jackson <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> " ,
and he used it to propel himself into the stratosphere, NOT just his beautiful, emotional, out of this world touch to music and innovative dance. Think bigger. WAY bigger. There is more to his talents than those you are focused on. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) --> His ideas have ideas!!!!!!!!
I submit to you that no one has EVER <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> interviewed the real, genuine regular guy in that guy's skin. Not Oprah, not Bashir! EVERY interview was staged to showcase his creation, "The King of Pop", or generate more controversy in his horror story. First he made us care about the character, then he puts him through hell, has him fall in love with a princess(daughter of the old King), that goes amok, he can't ever sleep again, from so much heartache and then he kills him off with drugs. <!-- s:o -->:o<!-- s:o -->
<!-- s:P -->:P<!-- s:P --> <!-- s --><!-- s -->
In fact, I think some of those <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) --> hot mythical paintings he had commissioned were just larger than life illustrations for his eventual publication of this horror story he's created.
I am unsure, at this point, if he will resurrect him, like Sleeping Beauty, or if the novel ends this sadly. But it IS FICTION <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: --> . It bothered me for months why he would so taint and RUIN the stellar legacy he spent a lifetime carefully crafting into something any child could look up to and his own kids could be proud of, but this is just it. It is NOT his REAL legacy he's ruined; it is that of fictional "Michael Jackson", the character in his literary THRILLER.
MJ EATS insults for breakfast! He has been known to antagonize people and don a disguise, in order to collect their freely spoken insults <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> He has in his archives EVERY tabloid word ever printed about him.
I'm not saying he isn't human and doesn't feel certain things very deeply <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> . As the sensitive artist we know him to be, he would necessarily have to have a huge heart. The emotion in his work gives him away, as we ALL know...
But this "poor me, they've got me again" victim crap is a scary fiction for the heart-wrenching, spine-tingling novel he's been reading to us for decades. It really IS. Some things ARE real. I believe the corruption in the music business is real. I believe TDRCAU was written about patronizing to cover REAL corruption. but songs about drug use were to support the (hoaxed!!) death, and make it believable. THAT creepy demerol song scared me <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> , and I thought I knew better! WHEW!! <!-- s --><!-- s --> <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Anyway, the FACT is, that anything which makes MJ sound as if he is not in control, making serious errors in judgment, whining, or some how else being SCARY, it is being faked for his Thriller. This is ANOTHER point of genius: we all thought "THRILLER" was his little Zombie Song & Dance... <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) --> <!-- s --><!-- s --> <!-- s --><!-- s --> When all the time we were LIVING on that Rollercoaster <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: -->
Here are some comments and/or questions...
3. In my experience, MJ's trial didn't spark any serious debate about child molestation, pedophilia, church abuse, or the lies being told in custody courts. Please give me examples if you've seen or heard of such associations made by people... The only debate I've seen was "Did MJ or didn't he? Was he or wasn't he?" Church abuse has been discussed quite a bit in the mainstream media in the past 5-10 years, so if anything has been done about it I think that's the reason - not MJ's trial...
Horrific things have been happening to women and children in this country for a long long time, without anyone taking note or championing their cause. People whose loves ones were victims, tried for years to get something done about this, so it doesn't KEEP happening. I don't give Michael Jackson credit for what eventually was put into place to Watchdog this, but I am saying, his court case ROCKED everyone's world. When the most famous man in the world in our time brings child molestation to light, people who were victims for years or kept a childhood secret for years, had the guts to come out! Hence, MAY be the reason all the church molestation even came to see the light of day. People have taken these secrets to their graves, it is so shameful, and they were convinced it was partly their fault...In the mid to late 1990s the National Sex Offender Registry went live and each state has their own database also, to keep tabs on these offenders, and make people aware of how to protect their kids from pedophiles. These"debates" were in legislative sessions. Unless you follow that kind of thing or never miss the nightly news, you wouldn't have known...Joe Nobody is accused of pedophilia every day. Michael Jackson's case brought it into everyone's living room <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) --> You're half right. it has almost nothing to do with entertainment. Michael Jackson is a born hero. He USED his fame as an entertainer, to lift up some rocks and highlight the evil there.
4. If MJ orchestrated this, why in 2003-05, when he had 3 kids, and not earlier, say between 1995-2000? Would Michael put his parents, siblings AND children through the wringer just to outdo criminals and chase martyrdom or a pipe dream? What does this even have to do with being an ENTERTAINER? Catering to the lowest common denominator?! Shouldn't MJ be above that? To me this is not compatible with how much of a perfectionist he was as an artist... He wanted to put out QUALITY, not just anything.
MJ didn't put his kids or family "through" anything, but the Adventure we are all on! Prince and Paris are both accomplished little actors, and they have said they love doing it(only, slyly, with reference to becoming FUTURE actors, not admitting any subterfuge for our benefit, yet. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> <!-- s --><!-- s --> ).
5. You hypothesized that MJ may never have lived at Neverland. Well, there are many videos showing him welcome people there, so I don't believe this. He might not have lived there continuously, but he did spend time there. And he spent a lot of money on Neverland!
Yeah, making newsreels and other movies, for Michael Jackson K.O.P.'s posterity... His generosity as a man opened it up to inderprivileged children and families, but I don't think it was his actual home. He used it as a movie set more than anything, I think. <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> None of his wives ever lived there! That is just very telling.
7. I've never seen the "Architectural Digest" article you mentioned, and can't comment on it. Is this about Neverland? I'd read that Neverland was completely Michael's vision, and he created exactly what he wanted. He didn't just move into a place. I'll stand corrected if you can provide evidence to the contrary.
I think you are thinking of Hayvenhurst. But here is an AD link.
Thanks for that article, you may be right about Neverland - it does look like Michael didn't make too many alterations. And you could be right about the whole thing, who knows, I do now understand the lens you're looking through. All I can say is:
IF TRUE, Michael sacrificed his KOP legacy, to some extent, to accomplish other goals. I find that hard (but not impossible) to believe, because of how great he was as an artist and how much he cared about his music and how much WORK he put into it... But I'm willing to admit that he might have cared about other things even more. But in order for that to be true, I think he'd have to be the 2nd coming of JESUS or something close to it... A SUPER-HUMAN, for sure. I don't rule it out, because I think there may have been hints... If Michael knew, in his heart, that his nature was divine, he couldn't come out and say it ("I'm the son of God, guys" - imagine the outrage!), so he said other things (I'm only human... I believe in living like Jesus... stuff like that). After all, even Jesus had two natures (divine and human) and he bled on the cross.
IF TRUE, imagine the dissociation MJ would have to constantly make:
1. Michael the regular guy who enjoys pranks
2. Michael the showman (KOP) who amazes on stage
3. Michael the dedicated recording artist who collaborates with McCartney, Mercury, etc
4. Michael the victim of the fame, paparazzi, mobs etc
5. Michael the divine being ( <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> ) who talks to God at night
This is astounding. <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> But it would explain a few things:
1. Michael never ate much.
2. Michael never slept much - and he seemed to not need much sleep!
3. Michael was always incredibly humble - something which amazed his own mother (Katherine said this in her recent book, Never Can Say Goodbye).
4. Michael didn't flinch or bat an eye when asked stupid questions in interviews (such as "Did you really have sex with Debbie Rowe?" or "Do you and Lisa Marie have a real marriage?" or "Are you a virgin?" - I'm approximating here). I've wondered, at times, why he didn't walk out of some interviews... He could have! He could also have controlled the questions he was asked, by making it very clear to the interviewers, before the interview, that there were questions he wouldn't answer!
5. Michael/his camp never sued Bashir.
This raises the question: Were there people (like Bashir) who were willing to take a fall for Michael? Or were they paid to play a role? Or were they assured that their career wouldn't suffer?
What' do you think about this, Its her?
Michael being DIVINE/SUPER-HUMAN/JESUS would also explain the following:
- Michael didn't care about getting the Nobel Peace Prize (IF true that he orchestrated - in some sense - the "child molestation" trial, Bashir interview etc). And hey, after all he didn't seem to care much about the KOP awards either, since he kept them hidden!
- Michael did all his humanitarian work behind the scenes.
- Michael was willing to let the human side suffer to accomplish certain goals.
Its her, is this the big truth/idea you were hinting at, that Michael was super-human/divine? If your theory about The Prestige is true, don't you think this is the inevitable conclusion?!
Another question: Could LMP have been an ALLY of MJ's all along? Their marriage may have been fake, in a sense, but by mutual agreement... Marriage = fake, but they truly did care for each other! I did always find it funny that Michael was chewing gum while taking the vows... He seemed to take marriage seriously, and yet here he was, chewing gum! Hmm. If so, LMP's 2005 interview to Oprah was orchestrated (like other things). The timing (during Michael's trial) is pretty weird and perverse, given that LMP and Michael had divorced long ago... And in the recent interview LMP told us that MJ is a "master manipulator"... It would ONLY make sense if A LOT of things which we took as true over the years were orchestrated!!
Well, I used to believe Michael has a divine nature...... I worshiped him ..... maybe I still do.....but what if his divinity is only another hoax.......Is this possible for this man to fake everything, even his whole life <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> ...... ?
Actor from birth to death.... .....maybe this is it......
Or maybe I just have a bad day <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
BlackJack you told us that Michael has been hoaxing the world for a long time ..... but you didn't tell us how far this hoaxing did go..... excepting hoaxing his death, which in this context suddenly seems less important than the other possible hoaxes in his life <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
Well, I used to believe Michael has a divine nature...... I worshiped him ..... maybe I still do.....but what if his divinity is only another hoax.......Is this possible for this man to fake everything, even his whole life <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> ...... ?
Actor from birth to death.... .....maybe this is it......
Or maybe I just have a bad day <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
Being divine is not something Michael ever talked about, so I don't see how he'd "hoax" divinity. He never claimed to be anything other than human! The divinity thing is something that only those truly dedicated to Michael (like us), who investigate long and hard, discover... Just like the symbols in his music videos - they're only there for those who take the time to study those videos and pick them apart! Most of the people in this world DON'T HAVE A CLUE. But Michael didn't/doesn't seem to care...
I'm starting to consider this possibility more and more - especially looking at all those Nordahl paintings (which started in 1990!). <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> What if Michael's body of work (music) is a commentary on society/people, while the paintings he commissioned are a commentary on him and who he REALLY is?! Michael must have known that most people would scratch their head about those paintings and not take them seriously, thinking "Oh, this dude was such a megalomaniac"... But those who know/study MJ know he wasn't a megalomaniac. So WHY those paintings then, depicting him as Archangel Michael, for instance, if Michael knew most people would dismiss them?! Were those paintings simply for his own viewing pleasure, or to be used as decoration? Michael could have collected paintings for decoration, the way many rich people do... But he chose to commission paintings.
Michael being DIVINE/SUPER-HUMAN/JESUS would also explain the following:
- Michael didn't care about getting the Nobel Peace Prize (IF true that he orchestrated - in some sense - the "child molestation" trial, Bashir interview etc). And hey, after all he didn't seem to care much about the KOP awards either, since he kept them hidden!
- Michael did all his humanitarian work behind the scenes.
- Michael was willing to let the human side suffer to accomplish certain goals.
Its her, is this the big truth/idea you were hinting at, that Michael was super-human/divine? If your theory about The Prestige is true, don't you think this is the inevitable conclusion?!
Another question: Could LMP have been an ALLY of MJ's all along? Their marriage may have been fake, in a sense, but by mutual agreement... Marriage = fake, but they truly did care for each other! I did always find it funny that Michael was chewing gum while taking the vows... He seemed to take marriage seriously, and yet here he was, chewing gum! Hmm. If so, LMP's 2005 interview to Oprah was orchestrated (like other things). The timing (during Michael's trial) is pretty weird and perverse, given that LMP and Michael had divorced long ago... And in the recent interview LMP told us that MJ is a "master manipulator"... It would ONLY make sense if A LOT of things which we took as true over the years were orchestrated!!
Like Its Her, I have this image of MJ acting his life on a 24/7 schedule right through the 25th June 2009... This is totally mind blowing that somebody can just act their life away and sometime I am wondering how much there is that has not yet been told! To an extend what we know about His life is what he wanted us to know about and some of it may be truth and some of it may be lies, what is what? 18 months after the "death", we are still relying on theories to get closer to the truth and we do not know with any certainty the rational for this "whole production".
Clear evidences point to LMP being an integral part of the hoax but when did the Hoax start for her ... did they? didn't they?... and what would make LMP accept to play a role in the hoax?
What about the likes of Harvey Levin, The family, Kenny, ...and the many others that are "supposedly" part of the hoax... Why are they doing it and what makes them trustworthy?
Non-beLIEvers have thrown those questions back at me many times in the last few months ... and I can only think that MJ must be a very good judge of people or be highly respected by those who know him and had a compelling story or stories to tell... everybody may not necessarily have been given the same information but all would have a personal reason to play with it...
The timing of the hoax falls perfectly with 2012 and there is no doubt in my mind that there is a connection, but I am finding it difficult to ascertain its true meaning ... entertainment art or real... Is Michael using spiritual symbolisms to create even more mystery or is it an attempt at suggesting his true identity?
I can unequivocally state that I am non religious but believe in God and what I feel about this whole experience is surreal, it is either entertainment at its very best or it is God's own show starring Michael and his disciples... or maybe God has hijacked Michael's hoax? <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Regarding people's motivations: There ARE decent people in this world, including people who have been friends to Michael and have never betrayed him. They tend to be the people who don't give many or any interviews and that we don't know much about: the Cascio family, painter David Nordahl (17-year acquaintance of Michael's), Grace Rwaramba (approx. 17 years again!), Siedah Garrett... Possibly Kenny Ortega and LMP ( <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> ) and others whom we've suspected of being "bad guys" (like Bashir and Oprah <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> ). I don't know much about Harvey Levin - have no idea what kind of person he is; maybe he's a good guy?
People could be helping Michael for ANY of the following reasons:
1. They think highly of him and see him as a friend they want to help.
2. They themselves understand the perils of success and/or fame and/or money. [I would certainly include LMP, and possibly Oprah.]
3. They themselves want to see a change in the world, maybe even a real paradigm shift.
4. They get paid off, in money or gifts or meetings with Michael. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
5. They have enemies they want to get back at, and this could help them accomplish that. If people gain something by participating in an MJ hoax, they don't even have to be paid off or be friends with MJ! It's about self-interest.
Regarding people's motivations: There ARE decent people in this world, including people who have been friends to Michael and have never betrayed him. They tend to be the people who don't give many or any interviews and that we don't know much about: the Cascio family, painter David Nordahl (17-year acquaintance of Michael's), Grace Rwaramba (approx. 17 years again!), Siedah Garrett... Possibly Kenny Ortega and LMP ( <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> ) and others whom we've suspected of being "bad guys" (like Bashir and Oprah <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> ). I don't know much about Harvey Levin - have no idea what kind of person he is; maybe he's a good guy?
People could be helping Michael for ANY of the following reasons:
1. They think highly of him and see him as a friend they want to help.
2. They themselves understand the perils of success and/or fame and/or money. [I would certainly include LMP, and possibly Oprah.]
3. They themselves want to see a change in the world, maybe even a real paradigm shift.
4. They get paid off, in money or gifts or meetings with Michael. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
5. They have enemies they want to get back at, and this could help them accomplish that. If people gain something by participating in an MJ hoax, they don't even have to be paid off or be friends with MJ! It's about self-interest.
I really hope that Michael has some dear friends that are helping him unconditionally, just because they love him ! And about Michael hoaxing the world for a long time....well, i don't know what to think about that .
Comments
I'm hearing you Its her! If we just think of this one thing, that MJ is THE GREATEST ENTERTAINER WHO EVER LIVED, everything else just falls into place.
Yet another wonderful post - thank you - I always look forward to reading your thoughts!
If knowing that MJ is GREATEST ENTERTAINER WHO EVER LIVED is enough for you, I respect that opinion. I can't agree with the theory, though. The main problem I have with it is that you seem to select the facts that seem to support your theory/theories, but ignore a lot of other facts.
Here are some comments and/or questions:
1. You seem to assume that Michael's TALENT would not, by itself, have been enough to secure him that spot? I believe it would have... The Motown 25 performance put MJ into the stratosphere, and it was based on sheer, raw, unbelievable talent. This is not someone who needed gimmicks to keep the public's attention! If anything, the later years in Michael's life detracted from his image and reputation, and made him fall into semi-irrelevance. Until June 2009, that is.
2. What is "fame" worth, if people talk mainly about your personal life and not your music or art? Do you think it's cool for every positive statement about the artist MJ to be followed by a caveat (BUT...)? Do you think MJ thought "any news is good news"? He didn't strike me as that kind of person, and I think I'd be a little disappointed if it turns out he actively pursued controversy of the dangerous/ugly sort...
IF Michael wanted spice, wouldn't it have been enough to bring up the numerous lawsuits he was involved in, and the numerous depositions he participated in? He could have talked about the Billie Jeans, the stalkers, the copyright lawsuits (which he all won), the fact that he put decoys in cars to escape the paparazzi... There's a German blog that says that MJ was involved in 1500 lawsuits and gave testimony about 1000 times!
<!-- m -->http://www.mjfriendship.de/en/index.php ... 7&Itemid=9<!-- m -->
Even if that's an exaggeration, I still think the numbers were pretty huge. That stuff takes TIME and energy and is bound to take a toll after a while. In 2005 MJ had to put his life on hold for several months and get his ass to court every day (he allegedly woke up at 4 AM), regardless of how sick or ill he was!
3. In my experience, MJ's trial didn't spark any serious debate about child molestation, pedophilia, church abuse, or the lies being told in custody courts. Please give me examples if you've seen or heard of such associations made by people... The only debate I've seen was "Did MJ or didn't he? Was he or wasn't he?" Church abuse has been discussed quite a bit in the mainstream media in the past 5-10 years, so if anything has been done about it I think that's the reason - not MJ's trial.
BESIDES: Wouldn't there have been better, and less costly, ways to raise awareness? I mean, many people aren't even talking about the media bias (anti-celebrities) or about police brutality in MJ's case, and those are the most obvious issues that came to light.
4. If MJ orchestrated this, why in 2003-05, when he had 3 kids, and not earlier, say between 1995-2000? Would Michael put his parents, siblings AND children through the wringer just to outdo criminals and chase martyrdom or a pipe dream? What does this even have to do with being an ENTERTAINER? Catering to the lowest common denominator?! Shouldn't MJ be above that? To me this is not compatible with how much of a perfectionist he was as an artist... He wanted to put out QUALITY, not just anything.
5. You hypothesized that MJ may never have lived at Neverland. Well, there are many videos showing him welcome people there, so I don't believe this. He might not have lived there continuously, but he did spend time there. And he spent a lot of money on Neverland!
6. "Rhinoceros skin" comment: An example of being selective about the facts. MJ also said he was human, he was hurt by the Wacko Jacko label, he didn't like the Eminem video mocking him & didn't want his kids to see it (or any of the other trash out there) etc... Looking at how fragile MJ became during the trial, I don't believe he was completely immune to everything!
7. I've never seen the "Architectural Digest" article you mentioned, and can't comment on it. Is this about Neverland? I'd read that Neverland was completely Michael's vision, and he created exactly what he wanted. He didn't just move into a place. I'll stand corrected if you can provide evidence to the contrary.
Cheers!
Thanks, Sarahli! That is indeed what I ultimately decided about that "documentary", that it wasn't orchestrated by Michael. I am, however, intrigued by the fact that MJ never sued Bashir for defamation/libel. There must have been a contract between MJ and Bashir, and if Bashir disobeyed one of the rules Michael could have gone after him. I do wonder why he didn't. <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: --> (One possible explanation, I guess, is that after June 2005 he just wanted to move on and never see Batshit's face again.)
Good question all I remember is the counter-attack documentary showing how batshit distorted the truth and what he said to Michael when the camera was off. Then it went to trial so maybe Michael had enough when it all ended and did not want to prosecute and bring all that in court again for maybe a disappointing issue. Could he rely on the system?
Isn´t to have different accounts against the rules of this forum?
Are you talking about one member or many members doing this?
We have seen strange appearances on all meadows we walked.
I have been gone for 2 days and I think I lost track.
I would like to know how many accounts one same person uses <!-- s:evil: -->:evil:<!-- s:evil: -->
I still have trouble to find time for one account ......
I miss phoenix eyes lately..... busy somewhere else BlackJack <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> ?
I've just been a bit busy trying to get ready for X-mas...... it is still going ahead, right?.... what with the hoax n' all ....I haven't missed an important TS update that says no 2nd hoaxmas...ooops....X-mas allowed during hoaxtime....lol. Seriously, I'll be back at work shortly.........thanks for remembering me!
No 2nd hoaxmas during hoaxtime <!-- s
No TS didn't say this....... you know he also loves to leave something to the mistery <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
But wouldn't it be cool if we won't be lonely this Christmas <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> ?
Oh, and welcome back stranger <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
PS: you should sleep at this hour...take care <!-- s
OK, I get it now, <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> why I haven't been able to make you see what I see. I am not "ignoring a lot of other facts". I've thrown them out as NON-facts. "Michael Jackson, King of Pop, Rock and Soul", is an ACT. A headliner; an ingenius Illusion. This is why I asked you if you saw the movie The Prestige. The reason hardly no one caught on without him SHOWING us this, is because, just like in The Prestige, the "Act" continues 24/7.
Try to filter your facts as I do. Pay attention to things like this: When "Michael Jackson" said things like, "That hurt my widdo feelings", EVERYONE sympathized, and THOUGHT it was the real MJ expressing hurt from being insulted and victimized. but it was the fake persona he gave his fake paper Doll. EVERYBODY assumed that if Michael Jackson was offstage, he was "himself", the real MJ. We all assumed he was telling us the truth about himself, because he was on downtime from being the Icon.This guy realized early early on, that he was TOO big and there was going to be no such thing as "downtime "from being
" <!-- s:o -->:o<!-- s:o --> Michael Jackson <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> " ,
and he used it to propel himself into the stratosphere, NOT just his beautiful, emotional, out of this world touch to music and innovative dance. Think bigger. WAY bigger. There is more to his talents than those you are focused on. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) --> His ideas have ideas!!!!!!!!
I submit to you that no one has EVER <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> interviewed the real, genuine regular guy in that guy's skin. Not Oprah, not Bashir! EVERY interview was staged to showcase his creation, "The King of Pop", or generate more controversy in his horror story. First he made us care about the character, then he puts him through hell, has him fall in love with a princess(daughter of the old King), that goes amok, he can't ever sleep again, from so much heartache and then he kills him off with drugs. <!-- s:o -->:o<!-- s:o -->
<!-- s:P -->:P<!-- s:P --> <!-- s
In fact, I think some of those <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) --> hot mythical paintings he had commissioned were just larger than life illustrations for his eventual publication of this horror story he's created.
I am unsure, at this point, if he will resurrect him, like Sleeping Beauty, or if the novel ends this sadly. But it IS FICTION <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: --> . It bothered me for months why he would so taint and RUIN the stellar legacy he spent a lifetime carefully crafting into something any child could look up to and his own kids could be proud of, but this is just it. It is NOT his REAL legacy he's ruined; it is that of fictional "Michael Jackson", the character in his literary THRILLER.
MJ EATS insults for breakfast! He has been known to antagonize people and don a disguise, in order to collect their freely spoken insults <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> He has in his archives EVERY tabloid word ever printed about him.
I'm not saying he isn't human and doesn't feel certain things very deeply <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> . As the sensitive artist we know him to be, he would necessarily have to have a huge heart. The emotion in his work gives him away, as we ALL know...
But this "poor me, they've got me again" victim crap is a scary fiction for the heart-wrenching, spine-tingling novel he's been reading to us for decades. It really IS. Some things ARE real. I believe the corruption in the music business is real. I believe TDRCAU was written about patronizing to cover REAL corruption. but songs about drug use were to support the (hoaxed!!) death, and make it believable. THAT creepy demerol song scared me <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> , and I thought I knew better! WHEW!! <!-- s
Anyway, the FACT is, that anything which makes MJ sound as if he is not in control, making serious errors in judgment, whining, or some how else being SCARY, it is being faked for his Thriller. This is ANOTHER point of genius: we all thought "THRILLER" was his little Zombie Song & Dance... <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) --> <!-- s
Horrific things have been happening to women and children in this country for a long long time, without anyone taking note or championing their cause. People whose loves ones were victims, tried for years to get something done about this, so it doesn't KEEP happening. I don't give Michael Jackson credit for what eventually was put into place to Watchdog this, but I am saying, his court case ROCKED everyone's world. When the most famous man in the world in our time brings child molestation to light, people who were victims for years or kept a childhood secret for years, had the guts to come out! Hence, MAY be the reason all the church molestation even came to see the light of day. People have taken these secrets to their graves, it is so shameful, and they were convinced it was partly their fault...In the mid to late 1990s the National Sex Offender Registry went live and each state has their own database also, to keep tabs on these offenders, and make people aware of how to protect their kids from pedophiles. These"debates" were in legislative sessions. Unless you follow that kind of thing or never miss the nightly news, you wouldn't have known...Joe Nobody is accused of pedophilia every day. Michael Jackson's case brought it into everyone's living room <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) --> You're half right. it has almost nothing to do with entertainment. Michael Jackson is a born hero. He USED his fame as an entertainer, to lift up some rocks and highlight the evil there.
MJ didn't put his kids or family "through" anything, but the Adventure we are all on! Prince and Paris are both accomplished little actors, and they have said they love doing it(only, slyly, with reference to becoming FUTURE actors, not admitting any subterfuge for our benefit, yet. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> <!-- s
Yeah, making newsreels and other movies, for Michael Jackson K.O.P.'s posterity... His generosity as a man opened it up to inderprivileged children and families, but I don't think it was his actual home. He used it as a movie set more than anything, I think. <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> None of his wives ever lived there! That is just very telling.
I think you are thinking of Hayvenhurst. But here is an AD link.
<!-- m -->http://www.architecturaldigest.com/home ... ow#slide=1<!-- m -->
As great and clever and talented as you think MJ is, he is even way better than that! Do you see, now? <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
Thanks for that article, you may be right about Neverland - it does look like Michael didn't make too many alterations. And you could be right about the whole thing, who knows, I do now understand the lens you're looking through. All I can say is:
IF TRUE, Michael sacrificed his KOP legacy, to some extent, to accomplish other goals. I find that hard (but not impossible) to believe, because of how great he was as an artist and how much he cared about his music and how much WORK he put into it... But I'm willing to admit that he might have cared about other things even more. But in order for that to be true, I think he'd have to be the 2nd coming of JESUS or something close to it... A SUPER-HUMAN, for sure. I don't rule it out, because I think there may have been hints... If Michael knew, in his heart, that his nature was divine, he couldn't come out and say it ("I'm the son of God, guys" - imagine the outrage!), so he said other things (I'm only human... I believe in living like Jesus... stuff like that). After all, even Jesus had two natures (divine and human) and he bled on the cross.
IF TRUE, imagine the dissociation MJ would have to constantly make:
1. Michael the regular guy who enjoys pranks
2. Michael the showman (KOP) who amazes on stage
3. Michael the dedicated recording artist who collaborates with McCartney, Mercury, etc
4. Michael the victim of the fame, paparazzi, mobs etc
5. Michael the divine being ( <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> ) who talks to God at night
This is astounding. <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> But it would explain a few things:
1. Michael never ate much.
2. Michael never slept much - and he seemed to not need much sleep!
3. Michael was always incredibly humble - something which amazed his own mother (Katherine said this in her recent book, Never Can Say Goodbye).
4. Michael didn't flinch or bat an eye when asked stupid questions in interviews (such as "Did you really have sex with Debbie Rowe?" or "Do you and Lisa Marie have a real marriage?" or "Are you a virgin?" - I'm approximating here). I've wondered, at times, why he didn't walk out of some interviews... He could have! He could also have controlled the questions he was asked, by making it very clear to the interviewers, before the interview, that there were questions he wouldn't answer!
5. Michael/his camp never sued Bashir.
This raises the question: Were there people (like Bashir) who were willing to take a fall for Michael? Or were they paid to play a role? Or were they assured that their career wouldn't suffer?
What' do you think about this, Its her?
- Michael didn't care about getting the Nobel Peace Prize (IF true that he orchestrated - in some sense - the "child molestation" trial, Bashir interview etc). And hey, after all he didn't seem to care much about the KOP awards either, since he kept them hidden!
- Michael did all his humanitarian work behind the scenes.
- Michael was willing to let the human side suffer to accomplish certain goals.
Its her, is this the big truth/idea you were hinting at, that Michael was super-human/divine? If your theory about The Prestige is true, don't you think this is the inevitable conclusion?!
Another question: Could LMP have been an ALLY of MJ's all along? Their marriage may have been fake, in a sense, but by mutual agreement... Marriage = fake, but they truly did care for each other! I did always find it funny that Michael was chewing gum while taking the vows... He seemed to take marriage seriously, and yet here he was, chewing gum! Hmm. If so, LMP's 2005 interview to Oprah was orchestrated (like other things). The timing (during Michael's trial) is pretty weird and perverse, given that LMP and Michael had divorced long ago... And in the recent interview LMP told us that MJ is a "master manipulator"... It would ONLY make sense if A LOT of things which we took as true over the years were orchestrated!!
Actor from birth to death.... .....maybe this is it......
Or maybe I just have a bad day <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
(Even DD a.k.a Michael in disguise said so in Larry King)
There is not MJ, just Michael.
Ok, now, all the members registered in this forum named Michael at birth please raise your hand <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
Being divine is not something Michael ever talked about, so I don't see how he'd "hoax" divinity. He never claimed to be anything other than human! The divinity thing is something that only those truly dedicated to Michael (like us), who investigate long and hard, discover... Just like the symbols in his music videos - they're only there for those who take the time to study those videos and pick them apart! Most of the people in this world DON'T HAVE A CLUE. But Michael didn't/doesn't seem to care...
I'm starting to consider this possibility more and more - especially looking at all those Nordahl paintings (which started in 1990!). <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> What if Michael's body of work (music) is a commentary on society/people, while the paintings he commissioned are a commentary on him and who he REALLY is?! Michael must have known that most people would scratch their head about those paintings and not take them seriously, thinking "Oh, this dude was such a megalomaniac"... But those who know/study MJ know he wasn't a megalomaniac. So WHY those paintings then, depicting him as Archangel Michael, for instance, if Michael knew most people would dismiss them?! Were those paintings simply for his own viewing pleasure, or to be used as decoration? Michael could have collected paintings for decoration, the way many rich people do... But he chose to commission paintings.
Like Its Her, I have this image of MJ acting his life on a 24/7 schedule right through the 25th June 2009... This is totally mind blowing that somebody can just act their life away and sometime I am wondering how much there is that has not yet been told! To an extend what we know about His life is what he wanted us to know about and some of it may be truth and some of it may be lies, what is what? 18 months after the "death", we are still relying on theories to get closer to the truth and we do not know with any certainty the rational for this "whole production".
Clear evidences point to LMP being an integral part of the hoax but when did the Hoax start for her ... did they? didn't they?... and what would make LMP accept to play a role in the hoax?
What about the likes of Harvey Levin, The family, Kenny, ...and the many others that are "supposedly" part of the hoax... Why are they doing it and what makes them trustworthy?
Non-beLIEvers have thrown those questions back at me many times in the last few months ... and I can only think that MJ must be a very good judge of people or be highly respected by those who know him and had a compelling story or stories to tell... everybody may not necessarily have been given the same information but all would have a personal reason to play with it...
The timing of the hoax falls perfectly with 2012 and there is no doubt in my mind that there is a connection, but I am finding it difficult to ascertain its true meaning ... entertainment art or real... Is Michael using spiritual symbolisms to create even more mystery or is it an attempt at suggesting his true identity?
I can unequivocally state that I am non religious but believe in God and what I feel about this whole experience is surreal, it is either entertainment at its very best or it is God's own show starring Michael and his disciples... or maybe God has hijacked Michael's hoax? <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
With L.O.V.E
Regarding people's motivations: There ARE decent people in this world, including people who have been friends to Michael and have never betrayed him. They tend to be the people who don't give many or any interviews and that we don't know much about: the Cascio family, painter David Nordahl (17-year acquaintance of Michael's), Grace Rwaramba (approx. 17 years again!), Siedah Garrett... Possibly Kenny Ortega and LMP ( <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> ) and others whom we've suspected of being "bad guys" (like Bashir and Oprah <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> ). I don't know much about Harvey Levin - have no idea what kind of person he is; maybe he's a good guy?
People could be helping Michael for ANY of the following reasons:
1. They think highly of him and see him as a friend they want to help.
2. They themselves understand the perils of success and/or fame and/or money. [I would certainly include LMP, and possibly Oprah.]
3. They themselves want to see a change in the world, maybe even a real paradigm shift.
4. They get paid off, in money or gifts or meetings with Michael. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
5. They have enemies they want to get back at, and this could help them accomplish that. If people gain something by participating in an MJ hoax, they don't even have to be paid off or be friends with MJ! It's about self-interest.
I really hope that Michael has some dear friends that are helping him unconditionally, just because they love him ! And about Michael hoaxing the world for a long time....well, i don't know what to think about that .