I see the hamster wheel is still turning, though some, me included, have decided to get off!<br /><br />I wonder if TS was expecting a nicely organised thread here - with each of the ambulance theories clearly stated once and once only! He only asked us to bring up theories regarding the ambulance(s) at Carolwood and the trip to UCLA (not body, helicopter or coroner's van) and he asked very nicely that we not repeat things. We've hardly fulfilled the brief have we?<br /><br />IMO we're never going to work this out, we're not meant to. WE are providing the entertainment right now, with our to-ings and fro-ings - I can well imagine someone having a good laugh at our efforts to solve the unsolveable! Any, all or none of the theories could be right. And as Bec just said, does it matter? No idea!
<br />Hints on the “How’s” of the Hoax<br /><br />In this update, I have gone into great detail about the timing of the hoax (as well as a few other aspects). Previously, I have gone into great detail about the reasons for the hoax {http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/search.php?author_id=1440&sr=posts}. That leaves only one frontier remaining: how did MJ succeed in pulling off this massive hoax?<br /><br />I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.<br /><br />For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory. <br /><br />I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point? <br /><br /> Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour. <br /><br /> This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed. <br /><br />Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/}? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/}<br /><br />- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br />4-38. Only a Few Would Need to Be “In On It”<br /><br />Let me also clue you in on a few tricks, so that only a relatively few people would need to be “in on it”. The endlessly discussed helicopter ride to the coroner: it could’ve had a living and/or a dead body in it, but not MJ; and yet none of the people in the copter, or working that situation, would’ve had any clue that MJ was alive. <br /><br /> All you would need to do is create a diversion for the media and public: the helicopter and all would be a big show for the media, while they transport the (supposedly) “real” MJ’s body in an unmarked vehicle—this would keep MJ’s body safer. And all the people “involved” in that diversion operation would play right along, and obey without question like good little boys and girls, thinking all the while that MJ’s dead body was being transported in some unmarked vehicle (and not even questioning whether or not MJ was actually dead). And even if they suspected later that MJ is alive, how would they know? They would not know, they would just suspect it (like hoax believers).<br /><br />The fact that it’s a criminal case is another good alibi for secrecy and cover-up; this way, nobody thinks twice when they’re told not to talk about what they did or did not see at UCLA on June 25 (or other times and places).<br />
Honestly, if we just take TS's words at face value, assuming he's not testing us or "supporting a false theory" suspicious// . Then MJ went to the airport, perhaps in the same vehicle that brought a freshly deceased corpse to Carolwood, into the gates late 24th evening on security camera. Were the extra security the fans saw, the FBI making sure all was done properly legally. The room was kept warm to thaw the frozen corpse pale/ for the EMT's to come on time at 12:26 on the 25th, take it away to UCLA, and then the coroners (it would just stay in their vaults). The select few would have known it was all for show, at least the ones directly touching the body. The body in the heli was simply pulled by someone inside to look like it was moving. Sitting -up-MJ could have been photoshopped in, and the van video along with the ambulance pic was done another day. A real dead body is not my favorite kid-friendly choice, but maybe it was the only choice, since we really don't know the why's and if there was a sting or real danger. This would be the simplest explanation, and perhaps allow for fewer people to be in on it. Maybe we were just getting carried away with so many options geek/ . <br />Thanks use_your_illusion!<br /> <br /><br /><br />TS, is this on track? /white flag/
If Jermaine did not intentionally provide a wrong "slip up" to intensify the fog, then <br /> - MJ went to the airport, <br /> - no body went to UCLA, <br /> - a donated corpse went to the coroner, <br /> - the AR was partially produced in advance based on MJ historical medical documents, partially based on the donated corpse and its features.<br /> <br /> However, one does not need to shut LAX down to fly MJ out.<br /> MJ does not need to leave by the main gate at Carolwood since there is a garage exit on Monovale Dr.<br /> MJ does not need to leave by night if his car has tinted windows.<br /> MJ does not need to leave by tunnel if the infrastructure and vehicle used for transport are not open to public eyes. <br /> That's much too much creation of chaos to escape it later.<br /> Smooth, simple and easy. Show the complicated side to the public but keep the trick easy. "Show".<br /> <br /> I still do not rely on anybody's statements, "shows" or "asserted truths" and I still do laugh the most about myself.<br /> <br /> The tiger will come out of the jungle when it's about his offspring's time.<br /> Until then, I grow into one of these fabulous ladies but only after having finished doing my dishes and having loved my family and friends, first:<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Michael, what a show. I hope you're laughing your socks off.
Remember this JCC clue - "Alert Steel Thickhead" ?<br /><br />A member long, long ago on the MJKIT forum (sorry I can't recall now who it was) used a Thesaurus to interpret the JCC clues and this one came out as "Carefully prepared dummy"<br /><br /> 8-) suspicious// <br /><br />hmmmmmmm
I think there is no need to keep on asking TS to post. I'm pretty sure that he is reading the forum and I'm again pretty sure that there's something he is waiting for. The right time maybe, or maybe he wants us to dig some more. Maybe there's something that we miss and he's expecting us to find it. Or maybe it is just about the right time. TS will be writing in his own time, that's what I believe. Let's be patient.
<br />Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA? <br /><br />These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?<br />
<br /><br /><br /><br />Yes, i agree with those two points<br />
<br />Hints on the “How’s” of the Hoax<br /><br />In this update, I have gone into great detail about the timing of the hoax (as well as a few other aspects). Previously, I have gone into great detail about the reasons for the hoax {http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/search.php?author_id=1440&sr=posts}. That leaves only one frontier remaining: how did MJ succeed in pulling off this massive hoax?<br /><br />I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.<br /><br />For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory. <br /><br />I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point? <br /><br /> Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour. <br /><br /> This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed. <br /><br />Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/}? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/}<br /><br />- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br />4-38. Only a Few Would Need to Be “In On It”<br /><br />Let me also clue you in on a few tricks, so that only a relatively few people would need to be “in on it”. The endlessly discussed helicopter ride to the coroner: it could’ve had a living and/or a dead body in it, but not MJ; and yet none of the people in the copter, or working that situation, would’ve had any clue that MJ was alive. <br /><br /> All you would need to do is create a diversion for the media and public: the helicopter and all would be a big show for the media, while they transport the (supposedly) “real” MJ’s body in an unmarked vehicle—this would keep MJ’s body safer. And all the people “involved” in that diversion operation would play right along, and obey without question like good little boys and girls, thinking all the while that MJ’s dead body was being transported in some unmarked vehicle (and not even questioning whether or not MJ was actually dead). And even if they suspected later that MJ is alive, how would they know? They would not know, they would just suspect it (like hoax believers).<br /><br />The fact that it’s a criminal case is another good alibi for secrecy and cover-up; this way, nobody thinks twice when they’re told not to talk about what they did or did not see at UCLA on June 25 (or other times and places).<br />
<br /><br />AMEN TO THAT !!<br />I don't know why i didn't remember that post of TS. But it makes a lot of sense to me. MJ left earlier that day and there's a high probability they used a corpse.<br /><br />TS I love you bearhug
<br />Honestly, if we just take TS's words at face value, assuming he's not testing us or "supporting a false theory" suspicious// . Then MJ went to the airport, perhaps in the same vehicle that brought a freshly deceased corpse to Carolwood, into the gates late 24th evening on security camera. Were the extra security the fans saw, the FBI making sure all was done properly legally. The room was kept warm to thaw the frozen corpse pale/ for the EMT's to come on time at 12:26 on the 25th, take it away to UCLA, and then the coroners (it would just stay in their vaults). The select few would have known it was all for show, at least the ones directly touching the body. The body in the heli was simply pulled by someone inside to look like it was moving. Sitting -up-MJ could have been photoshopped in, and the van video along with the ambulance pic was done another day. A real dead body is not my favorite kid-friendly choice, but maybe it was the only choice, since we really don't know the why's and if there was a sting or real danger. This would be the simplest explanation, and perhaps allow for fewer people to be in on it. Maybe we were just getting carried away with so many options geek/ . <br />Thanks use_your_illusion!<br /> <br /><br /><br />TS, is this on track? /white flag/ <br />
<br /><br />Maybe there was a dummy in the ambulance from Carlwood to UCLA and a corpse in the helicopter from UCLA to coroner. Just to avoid having a corpse in the same house with the kids, assuming they were really there. But I still believe it was a corpse all the way because I do not see the paramedics IN the hoax.<br /><br />I rememebr they said MJ had good friends at UCLA so maybe they helped in providing a corpse.<br />But I still have no explanation to why the black paramedic who testified said he recognized MJ immediately. Maybe he was brought in the hoax later for more confusion.
If the photo of the ambulance is not June 25, perhaps there was nothing in it that is why the videos are of such poor quality with these videos cannot ensure nothing
MJ himself could try to convince me this song is not about HIS FEELINGS, I wouldn't buy it. He wanted an escape, God knows why, what he felt, because I can not imagine how it is to be in his shoes and face his problems.<br /><br />I have only one problem: why they say "OPEN UP 6!!" and not "OPEN UP 7!!"<br /><br /><br /><br />
<br />how can TS read our posts when she's never online WTF???<br /><br />Oh, you can read this forum even if you're not registered I suppose.<br />
<br /><br />Can I ask you why you seem to be so sure that TS is a she?
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Just the break the circles...<br />What if Michael went no where and just stayed at the house (in the basement, IDK) and saw all the circus happening? <br /><br />
Aside from all this very interesting, thorough research, Randy Phillips all but told us in his testimony that there were 2 ambulances, if we are to believe ANYTHING he said. He testified that he had a scheduled 10:30 meeting with MJ on the morning of 6/25. Upon his arrival, an ambulance was already leaving the property followed by 2 SUVS. He followed behind them. He also stated that he had received a call from Frank Delio prior to getting to 100 N Carolwood, and was advised that an ambulance had ALREADY been called. My question remains, who called Frank and when? I do believe that MJ made his getaway in that first ambulance, after posing for the picture and before the announcement was made to the world about MJ’s sudden illness giving them time to be gone before all the hoopla started.
I just came across this vid and find it extremely interesting...seems anything is possible these days with a green/blue screen. It becomes even more interesting when combined with them 'highlighting' the use of green screen during TII.<br /><br /><br /><br />How much of what we saw from BEN at Carolwood and UCLA on June 25th was real and how much was simply illusion...our 'eyes playing tricks on us'?<br /><br />It looks like the sky's the limit these days when it comes to creating illusions.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.
<br />Deciding who or what went in the ambulance from Carrolwood to UCLA is going to be hard. We have visual confirmation of them seeming to load the stretcher into the ambulance at the house, but the video quality is such that the stretcher appears only as a white blob. Nothing could have been on it or there could have been a person (or a dummy) under a sheet. To be honest, we don't even have verification that the stretcher depicted in the ucla stretcher.gif came out of ambulance 71 at all, we just assume from the pics. There's no shot of them actually unloading the stretcher, just pushing it through the doors of the ER behind/beside ambulance 71 parked in the bay with it's back door open. It looks that way, as though they just unloaded, but we don't really know that. Does it matter? No idea.<br /><br />From what I saw on the video of loading at Carrolwood, through the gate crack, it *could* have been nothing on the stretcher. I have seen one video version with better quality that shows the paramedic that is hoisting the feet end does *not* have a ponytail, although there is a wide spread misconception that he does, it was just a resolution blob. He is clean cut and is indeed wearing short sleeves. Even on that tape, the stretcher is just a vaguely rectangular, more or less white blob.<br /><br />That's a little more evidence for nothing went to UCLA on 6/25/09.<br /><br />However, could not some legality be ensured by allowing these witnesses to be not lying when they said that MJ was there that day and under their care? Does it matter? Again, no idea.<br />
<br />Not if it's all a movie....they can SAY this happened or this pic is real...or ANYTHING..and if it's not real at all it don't matter..plus the script can constantly change, or new pics appear, or new evidence as it didn't happen actually.
@bethechange...yes I agree...remember someone posted on the forum, I think it was last year, how they can give the illusion of the city in the background, buildings etc when it's all a green-screen, it was quite extraordinary, and the fact that so many TV shows use it in some way and we don't recognize it...and even though they show you how it's done, it still so looks real....
If you accept it's green screened then you accept that ALL the stalker fans are actors. ALL of them. Because if ANY of them are real, and they really did have a habit of camping out in front of MJs house, then they would notice that NO ambulance came OR left Carolwood on 6/25/09 and that's a massive risk.<br /><br />If you accept that all of the stalker fans are actors then all the people in the tour bus were actors as well. And the map lady too. Have to throw the Fireman with the truck in there also.<br /><br />And that means UCLA stretcher .gif was almost certainly green screened because if you're gonna fake one scene there's no reason for any of it to be real. <br /><br />I suppose it's possible, but it seems very elaborate. Generally the more elaborate a theory becomes, the less realistic it becomes exponentially.<br /><br />Why bother with all these extras when you could just play act it out for real? There's very little risk play acting this out in live time on scene. No one sees MJ, there's a perfect wall and full gate to block any views. It's very hard to see inside a moving ambulance, and a staged 911 call keeps it off the police scanners which minimizes the resulting crowd. It's the perfect set up for the perfect (crime).<br /><br />So why go these lengths to green screen this scene? What's the benefit they would be after?<br />
If I would fake my death, I wouldn't tell so many people. Even if you sign an agreement to keep quiet, someone is bound to spill the beans. The less people know the better the hoax will be. I don't think Michael told the whole world, his family yes, he is having all the help from his family. Like Bec says, then the map lady, and the tour people would be actors and in the hoax, too risky.. This is my opinion. Remember the less people know the less the beans will spill..
<br />Honestly, if we just take TS's words at face value, assuming he's not testing us or "supporting a false theory" suspicious// . Then MJ went to the airport, perhaps in the same vehicle that brought a freshly deceased corpse to Carolwood, into the gates late 24th evening on security camera. Were the extra security the fans saw, the FBI making sure all was done properly legally. The room was kept warm to thaw the frozen corpse pale/ for the EMT's to come on time at 12:26 on the 25th, take it away to UCLA, and then the coroners (it would just stay in their vaults). The select few would have known it was all for show, at least the ones directly touching the body. The body in the heli was simply pulled by someone inside to look like it was moving. Sitting -up-MJ could have been photoshopped in, and the van video along with the ambulance pic was done another day. A real dead body is not my favorite kid-friendly choice, but maybe it was the only choice, since we really don't know the why's and if there was a sting or real danger. This would be the simplest explanation, and perhaps allow for fewer people to be in on it. Maybe we were just getting carried away with so many options geek/ . <br />Thanks use_your_illusion!<br /> <br /><br /><br />TS, is this on track? /white flag/ <br />
<br /><br />But again, who exactly is it supposed to fool? Even an ER crew of nurses is going to notice it's VERY dead and probably not recognizable as Michael Jackson. The doctors are clearly in on it, they'd have to be, again, won't be fooled by long dead. The paramedics, again, unlikely to be fooled. Collectively, they "worked" on this long dead body for 2 hours and 5 minutes before Doc Cooper called the hoaxy numerological t.o.d. What is the purpose of that? Why keep a long dead thawed out body around that long? Even if you argue that the paramedics stayed at Carrolwood for 30 min to allow it to warm the rest of the way, you have a thawed out old dead corpse sitting around behind an elaborate back story of 1 hour and ~20 minutes of heroic and desperate lifesaving techniques. These are the only people I can think of wanting to fool by using a real corpse, but I don't know how they can be fooled by a stunt like that. An hour and 20 minutes of working on a corpse, someone in that situation is going to think this is SUPER odd... probably a few someones. <br /><br />Besides, the 911 call is almost certainly a fake, as there were no random other responders or other media present outside by the time the ambulance left, some reported 30 minutes later, plenty of time for many to arrive if the call had gone over the scanner... as all official calls do. You don't get real (aka not in on it) paramedics from a staged 911 call. So the paramedics almost have to be in on it. The coroner=in on it no matter how you slice it. Using a dead body to fool the coroners guys? Well, it looks like any corpse could have been used... as cover "for the real body" and no one would have questioned it. That doesn't necessitate a real corpse being used starting at Carrolwood. So who, starting at the Carrolwood point, is supposed to be fooled by a real corpse, and therefore spared from having to be in on the hoax?<br /><br />I agree with you when you say that MJ's face and etc could have been photoshopped into those 3 pics in stretcher .gif. except I'm starting to believe that in actuality nothing was on that stretcher.<br /><br />I'm not so sure this is unprovable.
This is my post #112. typing/<br /><br />I was going to let #111 stay up for 11 days after 11-11-11. /cook/<br /><br />But I decided to cut in a little early. /white flag/
<br />This is my post #112. typing/<br /><br />I was going to let #111 stay up for 11 days after 11-11-11. /cook/<br /><br />But I decided to cut in a little early. /white flag/<br />
<br /><br />Oh.... Why? :?: :?: :?:<br /><br />
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
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"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."