<br />Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA? <br /><br />These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?<br />
<br /><br />I'm gonna vote 'yes' based on it being my initial 'gut' feeling and based on it making 'sense' for realism/less risk sake. I've elaborated on the 'breakdown' of my support of this theory in past posts. In voting 'yes', though, I totally concede that it is very difficult to prove.<br /><br />Having said that, though (and oddly enough)...the runner up 'theory' (for me) is that nothing happened at Carolwood or UCLA on June 25th, as far as any ambulance goes. My reason for that is because all we have to go on is words/interviews/'evidence' by Ben, Murray, Alvarez, other bodyguards, paramedics, Kai, and UCLA doctors. I'm sure I'm forgetting some...but the point is that they have ALL lied at some point or other...and if they haven't ALL lied, enough of them have that the 'truth' has been too muddied to shine through. Can we trust ANY of these people? If the answer is 'no'...then ALL 'events' of June 25th come into question.<br /><br />That's pretty much where I'm at....at both ends of the scale.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.
@Bec ; Yes I agree....1 ambulance at Carolwood and 1 at UCLA. Michael likely made a sweet donation to station 71 in exchange for an ambulance ride. On to 7(b)!!!! moonwalk_/
<br />No.1 <br />I guess we have to ask another question: Who's to say in these media videos it really WAS Michael? Who of the media can prove that they really filmed 'Michaels' corpse being transported. How did the media know that Michael will be transported by a helicopter ...? All ready with another heli? It's as if someone was inside with those guys transporting 'Michael' and then telling the helicopters that 'We're on our way with Michael'. VERY UNLIKELY-IF if is not a hoax. Which also means, (speculation) that the guys transporting a gurney with someone wrapped up in sheets on it only received an order to transfer 'that body' with the sherrifs' heli, change of plans. We have been told it was Michael, but they can tell us anything. I say, it was someone else who really died and the guys just had the order to bring the body up onto the roof to a heli for a transfer to the coroner. They did not know anyhting or who it was, ergo, they were used as a smoke screen. Without knowing it. Change of plans can always happen. But most don't ask further questions. <br />No. 2 <br />is in works ... :-)<br />
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on 1321642711:
<br /><br />Thank you very much. On page 17 I have said the same thing. I'm really a bit sad as it feels sometimes as if this is some exclusive club where others have no big chance to dive into. I got one post answering my post. <br />
<br /><br />With many voices and many opinions, sometimes you just have to shout above the crowd <br /><br />...I hear you...I'm listening....Thank you. respect/
<br />Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA? <br /><br />These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?<br />
<br /><br />I kept saying this on the first few pages but then I became tired to repeat it. Yes I believe there was one ambulance at Carlwood and the same ambulance arrived to UCLA on June 25th 2009.
For the sake of sanity and moving forward as a team, yes. As new clear information comes in we can change things on a need to basis.<br /><br /><br />Paula, your last pic was so comforting, at least we'll all be together...
I also believe in case Michael didn't die himself that day, that he was already gone via airport earlier that day, because of what Jermaine said about the airport - "Michael was not with us way before he arrived to the airport....hospital".<br /><br />So in case Michael didn't die, it was not himself in the ambulance but a dead body, a dummy or nothing. If it was indeed him, alive, in the ambulance, means that Jermaine really said airport by mistake.<br /><br />Of coarse what Jermaine really meant was that Michael was already dead way before he arrived at the hospital, this way trying to justify it was a conspiracy. I just can not understand how Jermaine can be so calm while saying they were after his brother to kill him.
<br />Everyone remember this article?<br /><br />From TMZ:<br /><br />
<br />[size=14pt]Conrad Murray - Michael Was Alive at UCLA[/size]<br />Originally posted Mar 30th 2010 6:00 AM PDT by TMZ Staff<br /><br />TMZ has learned doctors who worked on Michael Jackson at the UCLA Medical Center ran two EKGs on the singer, and at least one doctor who interpreted the results claims there was heart rhythmic activity both times.<br /><br /><br /><br />Furthermore, sources tell TMZ Dr. Conrad Murray insists he was able to restart Jackson's heart at the singer's home before paramedics arrived and then maintained heart activity in the ambulance.<br /><br />Dr. Murray's evaluation contradicts paramedics at the scene who wanted to take Jackson to the morgue, not UCLA, because they believed he was dead.<br /><br />It also contradicts Joe Jackson's lawyer, Brian Oxman, who tells TMZ he believes Jackson was dead even before paramedics arrived at the house. Oxman says the weak pulse detected at UCLA was in reaction to resuscitation efforts.<br /><br />We're told the criminal case is shaping up as a legal war between medical experts, who will be interpreting medical tests and charts in various ways -- always confusing for a jury.<br /><br />http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-heart-ekg-paramedics-ucla-medical-center-wrongful-death/
<br /><br />Typical tabloid dross or a HUGE clue?<br /><br /> 8)<br />
<br />Okay, <br /><br />Here's what I think....the helicopter/van transport was a test. <br /><br />Not a scene in a movie, not a clue to decipher etc....a simple test.<br /><br />What if the person we saw being transported to the Coroners office had absolutely nothing to do with Michael Jackson.<br /><br />My reason for thinking this is who told the media the body was going to be airlifted? :? <br /><br />Are we just blindly assuming the helicopter transport was MJ based on "seeing" him go into the hospital and what the media said?<br /><br />Just because we see a body being air transported to the Coroner, that is suppose to convince us that it was MJ?....It could have been a regular John Doe for all we know.<br /><br />...I think we're chasing our tail for no reason. We're still following what is being "shown"/"told" to us.<br /><br /><br />The ambulance story ended with it's arrival at UCLA...we had the pieces of the puzzle all along.<br /><br /><br />Flashback....<br /><br />Remember during the trial when they claimed Dr. Murray tried to kill himself and they flashed this picture of someone being transported to the hospital by ambulance? People jumped to conclusions that it had to be Murray?<br /><br />What if it's the same lesson and we still aren't getting it?<br /><br />#epicfail<br />
<br /><br /><br />Thank you very much. On page 17 I have said the same thing. I'm really a bit sad as it feels sometimes as if this is some exclusive club where others have no big chance to dive into. I got one post answering my post. <br />
<br /><br />Don't be sad friend. Here is a hug to make you feel better!<br /> bearhug<br /><br />Sending you lots of LOVE!!!!!! <br />
<br />No.1 <br />I guess we have to ask another question: Who's to say in these media videos it really WAS Michael? Who of the media can prove that they really filmed 'Michaels' corpse being transported. How did the media know that Michael will be transported by a helicopter ...? All ready with another heli? It's as if someone was inside with those guys transporting 'Michael' and then telling the helicopters that 'We're on our way with Michael'. VERY UNLIKELY-IF if is not a hoax. Which also means, (speculation) that the guys transporting a gurney with someone wrapped up in sheets on it only received an order to transfer 'that body' with the sherrifs' heli, change of plans. We have been told it was Michael, but they can tell us anything. I say, it was someone else who really died and the guys just had the order to bring the body up onto the roof to a heli for a transfer to the coroner. They did not know anyhting or who it was, ergo, they were used as a smoke screen. Without knowing it. Change of plans can always happen. But most don't ask further questions. <br />No. 2 <br />is in works ... :-)<br />
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on 1321642711:
<br /><br />Thank you very much. On page 17 I have said the same thing. I'm really a bit sad as it feels sometimes as if this is some exclusive club where others have no big chance to dive into. I got one post answering my post. <br />
<br /><br />With many voices and many opinions, sometimes you just have to shout above the crowd <br /><br />...I hear you...I'm listening....Thank you. respect/<br />
<br /><br />Thank you, too. bearhug I know, I was just getting a bit frustrated and i know that the discussion is hothothothot /cook/. But back to topic, shall we? ;D
If i am not mistaken all we have to put Michael at LAX is Jermaine's "slip-up", the flight record, and the temporary LAX shutdown. That's not a whole lot to go on. There is far more evidence that puts Michael in the ambulance and at UCLA escaping by way of the tunnels. It is much easier for Michael to disappear from UCLA than from Carolwood because the world thinks (at the time) that he is dead, dying, or in a coma. I'm sure Michael was followed everytime he left Carolwood so a ride to the hospital make perfect sense to me as long as he can remain concealed....which he did.
<br />Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA? <br /><br />These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?<br />
<br /><br /><br /><br />Yes, i agree with those two points<br />
<br /><br />I agree as well.<br />
<br /><br />I agree because I don't want Andrea to think of me in the shower again.
<br /><br /><br />What if the person we saw being transported to the Coroners office had absolutely nothing to do with Michael Jackson.<br /><br />My reason for thinking this is who told the media the body was going to be airlifted? :? <br /><br />Are we just blindly assuming the helicopter transport was MJ based on "seeing" him go into the hospital and what the media said?<br /><br />
<br /><br />That would seem plausible, but Tohme came out to the roof and escorted the 'body' right to the heli door. <br /><br />
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on 1321641598:
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on 1321636342:
<br />Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA? <br /><br />These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?<br />
<br /><br /><br /><br />Yes, i agree with those two points<br />
<br />Okay, <br /><br />Here's what I think....the helicopter/van transport was a test. <br /><br />Not a scene in a movie, not a clue to decipher etc....a simple test.<br /><br />What if the person we saw being transported to the Coroners office had absolutely nothing to do with Michael Jackson.<br /><br />My reason for thinking this is who told the media the body was going to be airlifted? :? <br /><br />Are we just blindly assuming the helicopter transport was MJ based on "seeing" him go into the hospital and what the media said?<br /><br />Just because we see a body being air transported to the Coroner, that is suppose to convince us that it was MJ?....It could have been a regular John Doe for all we know.<br /><br />...I think we're chasing our tail for no reason. We're still following what is being "shown"/"told" to us.<br /><br /><br />The ambulance story ended with it's arrival at UCLA...we had the pieces of the puzzle all along.<br /><br /><br />Flashback....<br /><br />Remember during the trial when they claimed Dr. Murray tried to kill himself and they flashed this picture of someone being transported to the hospital by ambulance? People jumped to conclusions that it had to be Murray?<br /><br />What if it's the same lesson and we still aren't getting it?<br /><br />#epicfail<br />
<br /><br /><br />Thank you very much. On page 17 I have said the same thing. I'm really a bit sad as it feels sometimes as if this is some exclusive club where others have no big chance to dive into. I got one post answering my post. <br />
<br /><br /><br />
Remember during the trial when they claimed Dr. Murray tried to kill himself and they flashed this picture of someone being transported to the hospital by ambulance? People jumped to conclusions that it had to be Murray?<br /><br />What if it's the same lesson and we still aren't getting it?
<br /><br />Good points both of you! <br /><br /><br /><br />Nothing's what it seems, don't believe everything, stick to your own opinion and don't go with the mass opinion, because finally the mass opinion seems to be the truth, which ain't necessarily so.<br /><br />L.O.V.E.
<br />If i am not mistaken all we have to put Michael at LAX is Jermaine's "slip-up", the flight record, and the temporary LAX shutdown. That's not a whole lot to go on. There is far more evidence that puts Michael in the ambulance and at UCLA escaping by way of the tunnels. It is much easier for Michael to disappear from UCLA than from Carolwood because the world thinks (at the time) that he is dead, dying, or in a coma. I'm sure Michael was followed everytime he left Carolwood so a ride to the hospital make perfect sense to me as long as he can remain concealed....which he did.<br />
<br /><br />So in this case Jermaine's "slip up" was not a slip up, but a simple mistake.<br />Could you name some evidence that Michael was in the ambulance and at UCLA? ALIVE?
[size=14pt]For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?). I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7.[/size] Another major area, that keeps popping up unresolved, is the idea that the ambulance was at Carolwood and UCLA on some day other than 6-25-09; and closely related is the fairly common idea that two or more ambulances were used (supposedly different lettering, reflector, wrong shadows, etc).<br /><br />[size=14pt]There are quite a few such theories floating around, and they all need to be thoroughly debunked for once and for all—[/size] so that we can see the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible, other than the very few things that required otherwise (such as the ambulance photo).
<br /><br />We agree that there was an ambulance at Carrolwood and it went to UCLA on the 25th but who or what went to UCLA in the ambulance was not resolved and we couldn't debunk any of the theories. Wish I had a clue how we could resolve it and debunk the wrong theories tho. TS was expecting us to do it. I hope we are not disappointing him.
<br />If i am not mistaken all we have to put Michael at LAX is Jermaine's "slip-up", the flight record, and the temporary LAX shutdown. That's not a whole lot to go on. There is far more evidence that puts Michael in the ambulance and at UCLA escaping by way of the tunnels. It is much easier for Michael to disappear from UCLA than from Carolwood because the world thinks (at the time) that he is dead, dying, or in a coma. I'm sure Michael was followed everytime he left Carolwood so a ride to the hospital make perfect sense to me as long as he can remain concealed....which he did.<br />
<br /> <br />You know when it was even easier to escape? Before the whole circus started, at night for example. I still have that car in my head that left 5 minutes after they arrived back at Carolwood after the last rehearsal, as we can see on the security footage that was shown in court.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
The video that we have along with with the TMZ article stating Michael was alive at the hospital and the fact that it it's easier to escape from UCLA than Carolwood puts Michael in the ambulance for me. I also believe that the video of someone jumping out of the coroners van is Michael so he would have to be at UCLA at some point. <br />The media told us what they told us, therefore we wouldnt be looking for anything but what we were told with our "pre-hoax" eyes. I think the video of Michael getting out of the coroners van was filmed and presented to us so we would know he had been at UCLA...ALIVE. I'm still organizing my line of thinking on this so bear with me.<br />The media largely dismissed thecoroner van video making it even more likely that Michael jumped out of it.<br />
<br /><br />You know when it was even easier to escape? Before the whole circus started, at night for example. I still have that car in my head that left 5 minutes after they arrived back at Carolwood after the last rehearsal, as we can see on the security footage that was shown in court.<br />
<br /><br />I've been thinking along the same lines. Could it be that he didn't go back to carolwood from staples at all? I seem to remember there was some confusion as to what time mj left the staples that night. some say 12.30am (phillips, ortega i think) and some said 1.30am (dancers and faye, i think). Could a double have gone to carolwood then left straight away, or not, just for the show of it, for awaiting fans?
The coroners van video becomes pointless if Michael didn't go to UCLA on 6/25/2009. Why would it even be created if it wasn't important?<br />If this has been planned for nearly 20 years I can't imaagine Michael not being all up in it to supervise. Does slipping away in a car in the middle of the night soundlike michael to you guys?
<br />Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA? <br /><br />These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?<br />
<br /><br /><br /><br />Yes, i agree with those two points<br />
<br /><br />I agree as well.<br />
<br /><br />I agree because I don't want Andrea to think of me in the shower again. <br />
<br /><br />Aha! My plan worked... <br /><br /> :ugeek:<br /><br />
<br />The coroners van video becomes pointless if Michael didn't go to UCLA on 6/25/2009. Why would it even be created if it wasn't important?<br />If this has been planned for nearly 20 years I can't imaagine Michael not being all up in it to supervise. Does slipping away in a car in the middle of the night soundlike michael to you guys?<br />
<br /><br />So we have to choose what's true: Jermaine's slip-up or the coroner's van video. Well I'm not really sure we have to chose.
<br />If this has been planned for nearly 20 years I can't imaagine Michael not being all up in it to supervise. Does slipping away in a car in the middle of the night soundlike michael to you guys?<br />
<br /><br />Based on what we know about Mike, I agree with this. They probably had to talk him out of flying the chopper himself <br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.
This is more of a perspective thought. Michael has always thrown himself full on into his projects. I totally picture him participating in the first person kind of way. Because can you just imagine how thrilling that would be?? I know I'm repeating myself here. The head-covered guy who came last out of the ambulance could've really been concealing a small hand held video camera, filming everything as it happened - getting it on record. Why wouldn't they?
BTW: I also agree on the ambulance being at CD and UCLA on the 25th. TS??<br /><br />TS hey hey TS<br />TS don’t you hear me calling TS<br />TS boy you know you are the one to help us out<br />Hey hey TS<br />TS don’t you miss us just a little<br />TS after all you're the only one who can help us out<br />Come on back to us TS<br />TS come on back to us boy<br />Hey hey TS<br />TS it’s been long so long<br />TS since you’ve been gone<br />Hey hey TS<br />TS don’t you need us just a little<br />TS ’cause honest boy you're the only one that can keep us sane<br />Come on back to us TS<br />Oh come on back to us boy<br /><br />TS, we need you<br />TS why d’you keep a-running away<br />Oh baby you keep a-running away<br />Oh baby yeah TS<br />We need you honey<br />Oh TS you sweet little sunflower<br />Oh hear my plea for sympathy<br />We just want you here with us TS<br />If you’re online that lonely night<br />What’s this thread without you boy<br />We're so puzzled we look crazy<br />Without you darling this thread is through<br />Come on back <br /><br /><br />Here, I wrote a SONG for you. Ain't that something? How can you resist a plea for help like that?
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
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"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."