Good points bec and I'm also looking forward to TS' reply and/or points to debunk the live MJ theory beyond it being too risky (although, that in itself, is a very strong point).<br /><br />The only thing, at this point, that I can see as a 'problem' with what you've outlined is these points you made:<br /><br />
<br />We know Bodyguards are in on it. We know Paramedics are in on it. We know Cooper/Nyugen are in on it. I agree with Gina that Kai must be in on it because the risk of her breaking character (running upstairs) seeing something (Security NOT ALLOWED in the house) is far too great to leave her out (risk outweighs possible benefit).<br />
<br /><br />Do we KNOW all this to be true or are we assuming it's all true? This is sorta what I was getting at in my previous post...we've been assuming that those in the house that saw the 'body' were ALL in on it. Could we be wrong? What 'proof' do we have that they were ALL in on it, other than concluding they were because it makes 'sense'?<br /><br />I'm not doubting your points...just trying to do as TS suggested and find the 'evidence' that backs how/why we 'know' they were ALL in on it. As I mentioned in my post, I tend to think the 911 call was fake. Because it was Alvarez who supposedly made the call, it follows (in my mind anyway) that he would have to be in on it. But could that 'logic' be wrong? I don't know...that's what I'm trying to piece together. Same with Murray...I'm pretty confident that he's in on it because we KNOW it's a hoax and he would have to be in on it considering he's the prime 'player' in the death scene. But how do we KNOW that Amir and Mohammad were 'in on it' though, or Kai for that matter (although I don't think she necessarily would've had to be in on it)? We need to find/come up with 3 strong points supporting them being in on it and I'm not saying there isn't any, I'm just saying that I'm having a hard time coming up with 'proof' that would stand up in a court of law as to them being 'in on it'.<br /><br />Any suggestions/points that would help move the 'assumption' of them being 'in on it' to a strong theory of them being 'in on it' would greatly help at this point.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.
Interesting debate point, BeTheChange, re: are the Bodyguards certainly in on it?<br /><br />Straight off the bat we have the Bodyguards fist bumping in the driveway outside Carrolwood that day. "Congrats/well done/we are awesome" body language caught on film. I'm sorry I don't have access to a link to this tape right now, perhaps someone else has it off hand? It's difficult to say these men are doing anything other then celebrating. They are either in on the hoax, or in on a murder attempt. Murder has been debunked several times (and in several ways) over the past 2+ years, I'll not rehash it again now.<br /><br />As you noted, the 911 call. We accept this is staged, and Alvarez was the speaker and SAYS he placed the call, so he MUST be in on it. If he says he dialed 911, and clearly DID NOT, he has little reason to lie except to keep up appearances for hoax purposes.<br /><br />Also, Alvarez's testimony directly contradicts the testimony of the Paramedics (on the bed/on the floor).<br /><br />Also, Alvarez testifying that he completed that laundry list of events (froze/picked up bags/IV bag in bag/reached for phone/ushered kids/etc) all within a span of 2 minutes that day, BEFORE dialing 911, which most agree is an impossibility.<br /><br />As far as the others/more supportive evidence? I'll ponder on it and report back with more after work today.
"Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc)."<br /><br />Interesting. To me it was always clear that this is not an involuntary manslaughter, but no murder...? Then why Michael would realize this hoax if it is not for murder nor for fun ? Then WHY? If there was no assassination attempt, then NO STING or FBI is on it for sure as it was suggested before by the same TS. Now it is more inconsistent with previous TIAI levels. <br />Moreover, if no murder attempt, why put Murray on trial and what if he gets max. conviction, would that be a part of a hoax for fun or revenge to somebody else? <br /><br />I still think only bodyguards are in hoax, kids possibly were informed later. If Michael was not in ambulance, then Murray and paramedics should be in or corpse was used to fool CM and paramedics if it is possible at all. But I still highly doubt that Murray is in hoax and will not support my opinion. Just like that. <br />
I had a premonition that Murray will be sentenced to 4 years jail time. So if he is, what does that mean? Also I thought it interesting that Michael says in This is it “we’ve got 4 years to fix it” which is exactly the number of years Murray is looking at. <br /><br />I meant to add that that doesn’t necessarily mean he wil actually “serve’ all or any of it behind prison bars.
I could be wrong, but my understanding of TS' quote:<br /><br />
<br /> "Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc)."<br />
<br /><br />...is that he is referring to ANY theories that involve MJ really being dead...whether through murder or accidental manslaughter. I don't think he is referring to any potential 'attempted' murder plot that was thwarted...so he is not now going against anything he's ever said in the past TIAI threads (i.e. TS has ALWAYS maintained that MJ is NOT dead).<br /><br />Moreover, as bec pointed out, an actual murder was long ago debunked. However, I don't think a thwarted murder plot was ever debunked (if it was, I missed it). How realistic/possible is a theory of a murder plot that was thwarted? I'm not sure...but I'm trying to make 'sense' of this scenario...even if just to eliminate it as a possibility.<br /><br />The bodyguards that 'fist pump' are difficult to 'make out' in the video...do we know who they are? It would make 'sense' that whoever they are, they are congratulating each other on a job well done. But, are they doing so because they were successful in carrying out a hoax OR are they doing so because they believe they carried out a murder? Again, the first option seems more likely to me...but I would be hard-pressed to find proof of that to back the claim.<br /><br />Perhaps the thwarted murder theory is too 'out there' and if it is, I REALLY hope TS jumps in soon to set that straight (before I go off on my tangents and waste time on this where my time would be better spent looking at more likely scenarios). Or if anyone else can come up with solid reasons as to why the thwarted murder/conspiracy plot theory is not plausible...that would greatly help as well.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.
I agree bec that the “MJ Alive” scenario has not been de-bunked. Anyone not “in the know” at UCLA that may have happened to catch a glimpse of Michael and thought they saw/heard movement/sound from him (unlikely) – there were reports saying Michael was ALIVE at UCLA and since the official t.o.d. was planned for 2:26 pm, any accidental witness could only say, “I believe from what I briefly saw, he was still alive when they brought him in.” As it happened, there is no such witness statement. Unless you count the nurse from La Toya’s book who told La Toya that Michael was alive upon her arrival at the hospital. I can't remember if the book says whether or not the nurse saw any body.<br /><br />I had suggested that Michael’s participation in the events that day would be “thrilling” for him (and I’m sure it would’ve been) but it is not the only reason I think he was there. I again agree with bec that Michael being there provides a certain credibility for all those involved, apart from the dead/resuscitation attempts bits. Those bits were added in for the hoax script. Because however you look at it, there indeed was a script to follow if we are to believe Michael is alive (which we do). And once again, a dead body is not going to fool medical professionals.<br /><br />I believe Kai is in on it. There’s too much risk for her not to be as a person would not (typically) react the way she did when she heard something was wrong.<br /><br />Alvarez is definitely in on it, IMO. His voice was on the staged 911 call and, while this is a personal opinion, he seemed overly nervous when testifying at the trial, like he was afraid he would slip up somehow.<br /><br />As for the children, I don’t know if Michael would put them through that (them not knowing) or not. I mean, Paris had the world crying when she spoke of her dad at the Memorial but apart from that, the children appeared bored during it - which would tell me they knew at that point. So if Paris can fool a world-wide audience, she and Prince can “react” the way we’ve heard (and surrounded by people they are comfortable with) once again for other-witness credibility. <br /><br />That's all for now, lunch break is almost done and people are coming back into the office...
No matter how I try to think of the events on 25th , I keep coming back to the corpse theory because:<br /><br />1. keeps the whole LAFD out of it - with the mentioning that paramedic Blunt said he recognized MJ on the spot - so maybe he was taken later into the hoax to create confusion in the scenario - because one paramedic said he didn't recognize MJ at all, the other said he recognized MJ on the spot- well that's confusion (I remember at first the media reported that paramedics didn't recognize Mj at all, the patient looked like an old frail Asian man, ill, so I was surprised at the trial when Blunt said he recognized MJ right away, so I was thinking maybe he was taken in the hoax later, I mean after June 25th, to make it less obvious to the public that it could be something wrong about MJ's death because the paramedics didn't recognize him)<br /><br />2. would explain the overheated room;<br /><br />3. would eliminate the risk of someone accidentally getting a glimpse into the ambulance and seeing nobody there;<br /><br />4. would explain why the paramedics said the patient was dead when they arrived, and also the doctors at UCLA saying the same thing - dead on arrival;<br /><br />5. not 100% sure but it could have fooled UCLA emergency doctors, leaving them out of the hoax, but on the other hand UCLA has to be in the hoax one way or another because they had to be the ones who provided the corpse. So I think UCLA is involved, but not through the emergency doctors. Arnold Klein is linked to UCLA - that's what I know, and I think MJ was in good relations at UCLA with people more in charge than some emergency doctors.<br />Remember it was said he used to watch surgeries there.<br /><br />Well I can not think of anything else now but I have a problem with this corpse theory, and the problem is the CORPSE. I mean it's not that easy to find a corpse of some John Doe exactly when you need it to fake your death.<br /><br />So I'm not sure of anything.<br /><br />Of course my first option is the corpse of MJ. was in the ambulance . But let's say he's still alive, hopefully.<br /><br /><br />
OK another crazy theory is that MJ agreed to take some substance that could make him look DEAD without being really dead, but this is quite SF to me and I don't know if he would take that risk on himself. You know like in The Illusionist.<br /><br />Oh, and it was never mentioned but maybe on the stretcher there were simply some pillows or stuffed toys :shock: (that's my son's theory LOL)
Just a thought. Maybe we won't be able to figure out all of the "how's" of the hoax because it is on a whole different level. I have feelings that Michael could be connected to the spiritual world. Things that we are not too familiar with. Think about what Kenny Ortega said about him having "Bioliminessence". And Akon saying "He thinks on a whole other level". <br /><br />Think about energy waves,magnetic fields, light bodies,channeling, psychic powers, astral projection, different dimensions and frequences, quantum jumping, spirits, angels, E.T's, astrology, sacred geometry, alchemy. Or maybe it's something we don't know yet.<br /><br />Get ready to learn a new "reality". I think we have to go Waaaaaaaaay outside the box and it might be something we don't know ?????? Just ideas.<br /><br />Love and Light to all<br /><br /><br />
And who is this video of the bodyguards celebrating among them? If i remember correctly that video was recorded from the top and someone who was inside the house, it is no fans
Dontwalkaway - while I could never eliminate the ideas you've mentioned above (there are just so many unexplainable things that happen in the world) - I think those suggestions would be the hardest to either prove or disprove.
<br /><br /><br />In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher. And as I have repeatedly stated before: there should be at least two or three strong points, in favor of any conclusion. This case is no exception to that important rule.<br /><br />First of all, we do NOT have two or three evidences indicating that MJ sat up; we have only the vague photos, but no eyewitnesses or any other evidence that I’ve ever seen, indicating that MJ sat up while going into UCLA. On a side note, although we do not have two or three evidences for MJ sitting up, we do have four CONTRADICTORY hoax theories about MJ going into the hospital (all four of which are wrong): #1 MJ sits up in the stretcher; #2 Murray is really MJ in disguise; #3 MJ is the dark-haired paramedic on the far right; #4 MJ is the last one getting out of the ambulance. NONE of these four theories are supported by at least two or three strong points (nor is it possible for even two of these to be correct, much less all four).<br /><br />Second, there are several strong points why MJ did not go to UCLA at all on 6-25-09 (which I have already started discussing at the beginning of 7b, and will be going into much more detail shortly). Obviously, if MJ was not on that stretcher going into UCLA, then MJ did not sit up while riding on the stretcher. I will also be debunking the living double theory soon, which means that no living double sat up, either.<br /><br />Third, the photos could’ve easily been edited, to make it look like MJ was sitting up in the stretcher. However, this is probably not the case, because the last three points below all indicate that the face is actually someone walking on the far side of the stretcher. His face is primarily blocked by all of the other people between him and the camera, although in some of the pictures you can see portions of his face. Likewise, his legs are blocked in almost all of the shots; but there is one shot where you can see one of his legs (see pictures at the end of this post).<br /><br />Fourth, the stretcher went into UCLA feet first. If MJ sat up on the stretcher, he would have to be riding it backwards! That is possible, of course, especially if he was planning to sit up; therefore, I consider this only a minor point. Please carefully compare these pictures; the second picture (click the link) is a stretcher from the LAFD, just like the one that went into ULCA. You should be able to see three or four things which show that the stretcher went into UCLA feet first {http://tinyurl.com/7h7l9zy}.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />http://mikesphotos.us:81/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=82810<br /><br /><br />Fifth, there is one person standing in the doorway, who does not move with the stretcher (Heron). This means that unless the mystery face is that of someone walking with the stretcher on the far side of it, then EVERYONE walking with the stretcher is towards the camera (on the left side and head of it). This of course is possible, but it seems more reasonable that at least one person would be walking the stretcher on the far side (on the right side or foot of it).<br /><br />Sixth, as stated above, in most of the pictures his legs are blocked by the legs of people closer to the camera; but there is one shot where you can see one of his legs (it’s the third picture in the series of eight). This leg is too wide to be any part of the structure of the stretcher; and it’s too far right to be one of Blount’s legs (see the legs colored in the picture below).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
we need to start thinking about all the people who were already at the residence (before any LAFD arrived)—were they ALL in on it? If so, why? And if not, what would keep them from finding out (and spilling the beans)?
<br /><br />We know the main "actors on the scene - Murray, Kai, the kids, Alvarez, Faheem - but there were also the housekeepers so from all people there, Murray comes to Kai to scream for help. Where were the others in the house when he came downstairs?<br />How comes nobody else heard Murray than Kai? So even if she's the only one who heard Murray's scream for help, she's the last one who realizes MJ is in big trouble, because she said she found out from the rest of the staff who was gathered in the entrance hall. <br /><br />So maybe she is just lying or hiding something.<br /><br />[size=10pt]Or maybe Murray never went downstaires and never called Kai, risking to be accidentally heard by the housekeepers who were not in the hoax.[/size]
all indicate that the face is actually someone walking on the far side of the stretcher.
<br /><br />YES!! This is what I saw too and posted in this thread penguin/.<br /><br />Even though it would have been much more exciting if there was really MJ :-\.<br /><br />
Fourth, the stretcher went into UCLA feet first. If MJ sat up on the stretcher, he would have to be riding it backwards!
<br /><br />exactly!!<br /><br />Totally agree with you TS . I also counted the legs and there were too many legs there bow/ bow/ bow/
Sidenote: For those 'few' that keep trying to push the 'TS brainwashes everyone theory'...the whole MJ sitting up on the stretcher is merely ONE of many, many instances where we disected and discussed the topic for what felt like dog years, without him suggesting anything to either support or debunk it. Instead, he let us come up with our own conclusions, in this case (and probably many others lol) wrong...but has only now shared his reasons as to why the theory isn't plausible (that is, if you see the logic in what he just posted...and I do).<br /><br />I'm getting ready for a night out on the town lol....my kickboxing club's Christmas party...but will check in later tonight (or pop in and out while I'm getting ready). There's been some great posts so far and I'll be thinking about everything being discussed....and looking forward to reading more.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.<br /><br />P.S. The Murray being MJ in disguise sure was fun while it lasted (I can hear PureLove gloating as I type )
Why Kai needs to be in, indeed there doesn't seem to be a reason for her to be in. Unless her role is to confirm an event that never happened, like Murray running downstairs screaming for help maybe ;D, and then reported in media to make the public believe MJ died.. Just a thought.
<br /> Instead, he let us come up with our own conclusions, in this case (and probably many others lol) wrong...<br />
<br /><br />I wasn't wrong about that and it really feels good.<br />I am sure I'm wrong about other things though.<br /><br />About Murray being Michael, I've always thought you guys were just kidding and you never really believed Murray is Michael.
<br /><br /><br /><br />In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher. And as I have repeatedly stated before: there should be at least two or three strong points, in favor of any conclusion. This case is no exception to that important rule.<br /><br />First of all, we do NOT have two or three evidences indicating that MJ sat up; we have only the vague photos, but no eyewitnesses or any other evidence that I’ve ever seen, indicating that MJ sat up while going into UCLA. On a side note, although we do not have two or three evidences for MJ sitting up, we do have four CONTRADICTORY hoax theories about MJ going into the hospital (all four of which are wrong): #1 MJ sits up in the stretcher; #2 Murray is really MJ in disguise; #3 MJ is the dark-haired paramedic on the far right; #4 MJ is the last one getting out of the ambulance. NONE of these four theories are supported by at least two or three strong points (nor is it possible for even two of these to be correct, much less all four).<br /><br />Second, there are several strong points why MJ did not go to UCLA at all on 6-25-09 (which I have already started discussing at the beginning of 7b, and will be going into much more detail shortly). Obviously, if MJ was not on that stretcher going into UCLA, then MJ did not sit up while riding on the stretcher. I will also be debunking the living double theory soon, which means that no living double sat up, either.<br /><br />Third, the photos could’ve easily been edited, to make it look like MJ was sitting up in the stretcher. However, this is probably not the case, because the last three points below all indicate that the face is actually someone walking on the far side of the stretcher. His face is primarily blocked by all of the other people between him and the camera, although in some of the pictures you can see portions of his face. Likewise, his legs are blocked in almost all of the shots; but there is one shot where you can see one of his legs (see pictures at the end of this post).<br /><br />Fourth, the stretcher went into UCLA feet first. If MJ sat up on the stretcher, he would have to be riding it backwards! That is possible, of course, especially if he was planning to sit up; therefore, I consider this only a minor point. Please carefully compare these pictures; the second picture (click the link) is a stretcher from the LAFD, just like the one that went into ULCA. You should be able to see three or four things which show that the stretcher went into UCLA feet first {http://tinyurl.com/7h7l9zy}.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />http://mikesphotos.us:81/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=82810<br /><br /><br />Fifth, there is one person standing in the doorway, who does not move with the stretcher (Heron). This means that unless the mystery face is that of someone walking with the stretcher on the far side of it, then EVERYONE walking with the stretcher is towards the camera (on the left side and head of it). This of course is possible, but it seems more reasonable that at least one person would be walking the stretcher on the far side (on the right side or foot of it).<br /><br />Sixth, as stated above, in most of the pictures his legs are blocked by the legs of people closer to the camera; but there is one shot where you can see one of his legs (it’s the third picture in the series of eight). This leg is too wide to be any part of the structure of the stretcher; and it’s too far right to be one of Blount’s legs (see the legs colored in the picture below).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
Interesting,thanks for your post TS,u are so awesome,i appreciate u for being our guiding light in these dark and trying times.Can u answer this question for me,who is that stepping out the back of the ambulance?Is that MJ,or is it just an illusion.
TS basically just debunked the MJ taken in the ambulance that day theory. <br /> He also said he would give the answer to us on a silver platter, and MJ wasn't an option served on that platter. I also think the 'living double theory' would be exactly the same as the MJ theory, so it too doesn't seem necessary.<br /><br /> That leaves us with the dummy/corpse/nothing theories.<br /><br /> If Kai is not in on it, there was a general rule that no one was allowed upstairs; I highly doubt that she would risk her job and turn into Superman, run upstairs and see what was actually on the bed. If Murray was up there before help arrived, he would have been the one to stop her. Besides, she didn't see what exactly the emergency was nor was she told, so her going back to work isn't that unusual as it is what she was there for anyway. <br />Murray could have been staying with Michael. Maybe they discussed the hoax and many other things and everyday for a while, he got his juice; just for appearances for those not in the know.<br /><br /> Perhaps more people should support theories that might not be that of their own opinion, just so TS could have more theories to debunk. I'm also unsure why people would start believing MJ is dead based on whatever theory is what actually happened. Regardless of who/what was in the ambulance, it doesn't change the fact that he faked his death and why he faked his death. The end result is and will be the same.<br /><br />
<br /> Instead, he let us come up with our own conclusions, in this case (and probably many others lol) wrong...<br />
<br /><br />I wasn't wrong about that and it really feels good.<br />I am sure I'm wrong about other things though.<br /><br />About Murray being Michael, I've always thought you guys were just kidding and you never really believed Murray is Michael.<br />
<br /><br />Yes Gina...I remember you mentioning the legs in the ambulance photo at UCLA /bravo/<br /><br />As for Murray being MJ, it definitely was a 'fanciful' theory....and a fun one. But one that most of us always conceded would be very difficult to pull off.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.
TS basically just debunked the MJ taken in the ambulance that day theory.
<br /><br />Not entirely. She/he just explained why it wasn't MJ standing up on the stretcher, but this doesn't prove MJ wasn't lied down on the stretcher.
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