@Bec - I don't agree with your 'pro' for 'live MJ' where you say it keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body".<br /><br />What if those 'unauthorised' people happened to catch 'the body' at a moment when it was breathing, moving, coughing, scratching or worse still laughing or 'directing'??? It's too big a risk IMO.<br /><br />Ooh, now I see TS has posted but I'll post this anyway and then get reading!
@TS - I don't know if you're a fake or not yet but I have to say this: this last post is amazing. Honestly. /bravo/.<br /><br />You left room for something/a new approach that none of us expected or am I dreaming smiley_spider?<br />I'm gonna read your post again now.<br /><br /><br /><br />
...and have shown that the ambulance videos were both taken at the same time on 6-25-09….. know that all the video-taped ambulance events did occur at Carolwood on June 25, 2009.
<br /><br />Let me have my short moment of satisfaction penguin/ …ok done ;D<br /><br />
we need to start thinking about all the people who were already at the residence (before any LAFD arrived)—were they ALL in on it? If so, why? And if not, what would keep them from finding out (and spilling the beans)?
<br /><br />GREAT IDEA. BUT WHO WERE THEY? CAN WE MAKE A LIST?<br /><br />CONRAD MURRAY<br />KAI CHASE<br />PARIS<br />PRINCE<br />BLANKET<br />ALVAREZ<br /><br />??????<br /><br />another guards and some maintenance staff<br /><br /><br />
The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.<br /><br />I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance
then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.<br /><br />....As we go through and continue to [size=12pt]debunk some of these long-cherished hoax theories (NONE of which have EVER been supported by yours truly[/size]).....<br /><br />Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories will not be troubled over [size=12pt]the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories[/size].
<br /><br /><br />THIS MAKES ME RAISE AN EYEBROW…NEVER BEEN SUPPORTED BY YOU TS , BUT ONE OF THEM MUST BE TRUE, OR WHAT???? I CAN NOT IMAGINE OTHER SCENARIOS /pull hair/ smiley_spider smiley_spider smiley_spider<br /><br />
<br />MJonmind, the million dollar question is... for what purpose?<br /><br />What benefit?<br /><br />Considering the Paramedics, the two UCLA Docs, the Bodyguards, the Coroner we collectively agree have to be in on it, who is a real corpse intended to fool?<br /><br />So far there has been no answer to that question so to me it's not a very strong theory.<br />
<br /><br /><br />Some of you here have speculated that perhaps a real corpse was needed to hold harmless all such persons who have to be in on it (Paramedics, UCLA doctors, the coroner), in which case, all their statements and documents would be legal.<br /><br />This seems like a good reason to make this theory very strong<br /><br />
TS, you have teasing way of saying you will give us a hint or clue, but it also is so damm cryptic, and I feel like whatever I say or whatever evidence I have, will be overlooked and deemed as useless, so why bother.<br /><br />I have some credible information regarding the ?paramedics? that day...but just need a little more evidence before I post it here.<br /><br />Firstly, if all the staff were sent home before the ambulance left, did that include Kai Chase??<br /><br />Who was left to be with the children when all the staff were sent home, and was the nanny in the care with them as the bodyguards took off ?? <br /><br />Why were the staff sent home, and who authorised them to be sent away, considering it could be potentially a crime scene???
<br />“Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax.”<br /><br />For example, do you think that Kai Chase was in on it? If so, why? Would she NEED to be in on it, and what EVIDENCE is there that she is in on it? In fact, have you ever considered whether the CHILDREN were in on it initially (or just informed afterward)? And again, what EVIDENCE do you have on this?<br /><br />Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.<br /><br /><br />Far more important than the fun, is the [size=14pt]SUCCESS[/size] of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. <br />
<br /><br />So SUCCESS= Least riskiest theory ????<br /><br />So the possibilities of what went in the ambo are;<br /><br />-Living double (which is not really a possibility if MJ was declared dead at the house and UCLA...plus if this was a murder or accidental manslaughter there would be no point for a double...and for the hoax if you are going to use a dummy you might as well just use Live MJ, so a living double seems pointless)<br /><br />-Nobody<br /><br />-Dummy<br /><br />-Corpse (Corpse would seem no different then having a dummy instead, if there is a corpse you are likely to have one that doesn't look like MJ and Blunt said he recognized MJ)<br /><br />This could either be;<br /><br />-Murder <br /><br />-Hoax<br /><br />-Accidental manslaughter<br /><br /><br />People who were at the house/near the house before LAPD arrived;<br /><br />-Murray<br /><br />-Medics<br /><br />-Chase<br /><br />-Alverez<br /><br />-Prince<br /><br />-Paris<br /><br />-Blanket<br /><br />-Ben<br /><br />-Chris<br /><br />-Fans<br /><br />-Other security guards/staff<br /><br /><br />
in the house:<br /><br />CONRAD MURRAY<br />KAI CHASE<br />PARIS<br />PRINCE<br />BLANKET<br />ALVAREZ<br />NANNY (sorry I don't know her name)<br />security and maintenance staff<br /><br />????<br /><br />Faheem Muhammad the chief of security testified he arrived later and saw MJ apearred dead<br />Michael Amir Williams - the assistant - arrived later, only when the ambulance was ready to go to UCLA. He took the children with him .and they followed the ambulance...?!?<br /><br />http://abcnews.go.com/US/Conrad_Murray_Trial/michael-jackson-trial-kids-prince-paris-cried-conrad/story?id=14623265<br />
I tried to use your list bec, but I became too confused when I tried to add stuff to it, so I will do it another way.<br /><br />Live MJ:<br />No need for this. He directs this either way, he doesn't have to be on the scene for that. If all this was carefully planned with people he trusted (and/or let them sign killer contracts), he would not have to be anywhere near the mansion, he even didn't have to be in the US. It would require everyone in on it that was in the room at the 25th, the paramedics, the doctors and the coroner. <br /><br />Live double:<br />Same story, the only pro with this would be that MJ could be long gone, but then what is the use of a live double, when everyone seeing the 'body' has to be in on it anyway. Nothing at all would have done the trick too in that case.<br /><br />Nothing:<br />Still makes the most sense to me, unless the sting is against people who have actually seen the body. If there is nothing to see, there is nothing to risk. Someone could say that they didn't see a body, but what would that prove? That MJ is alive? No, it could mean they didn't see it very well. When someone would say that they did see someone, but that it moved or was breathing, then you could have a problem. This also means the less amount of change: simply remove MJ from the scene. A dummy or a corpse would mean an addition to the scenario.<br /><br />Dummy:<br />Makes sense too, even if it would just be for transportation purposes. They could have transported it exactly as was reported, and even have it buried in that coffin. Would explain why the body still looked stunning after being dead for 10 weeks (see La Toya's book). This would still require the same amount of people in on it though.<br /><br />Corpse:<br />Would only make sense in my book if the sting is against one or more people that actually saw the body: Murray, Security, Paramedics, ER doctors, Coroner and I think one or two detectives from the LAPD. If the sting would be against the DA (Cooley), then a dead body would not be necessary, because as far as we all know, Cooley never saw the corpse. Walgren and Brazil are in on it if you ask me, but even if they weren't, they haven't seen a dead body either. If it were a sting against the detectives, then I would like to know why. If they really saw a dead body, and were told that the body was MJ's by professionals (coroner), then why would they doubt that? They did mention the unidentified fingerprints for example, it's up to the DA to make the case. Now we know from the trial that the evidence was tampered with, but how would the detectives gain from that? It would mean that someone gave them orders to do so and that would probably be from someone who did NOT see a body, so again no corpse is needed, unless the detectives are part of it too to see if they would take the money. But if this were all true: let's say Cooley would be the target, then how could they have known in advance that Cooley would even do this or that the detectives would take the money? That he would go through all this trouble to have Murray on trial. If there was a murder plot that he knew of and he wanted to have Murray behind bars for that to cover up the murder plot, then why just one count in a case full of holes? There was enough reasonable doubt in my opinion, so if this was all real with a real jury, it could have easily go the other way. The success for this sort of sting seems too unlikely in my opinion and it doesn't make much sense. The coroner can't be fooled with a corpse as I have said earlier. In order to fool the coroner and have him make an AR based on truth, they would have had to kill a healthy man on the scene with propofol. That seems a little too far-fetched and unrealistic. I also don't see why there should be a sting against anyone else that saw or handled the body, and if there is a sting against some officials, a body would not be needed if they didn't see it, all that has to be done is making false documents.<br /><br />The corpse could have been used to have less people in on it and have them testify truthfully though, and the one that would be 100% sure that the body wasn't MJ, is the coroner. But the deputy also testified, so that would mean he lied under oath. And if you have one lying under oath, I don't see how others couldn't. It simply shows that this was not a real case, i.e. Kangaroo Court.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
BTW: Kai doesn't have to be in on it, she didn't see anything and was not allowed upstairs. It does mean though that she is useless in an emergency, because if someone asks you to get help, get security, get prince, and you only get a kid, then you don't want that person near in case of an emergency. The rest of the staff haven't seen anything either as far as we know, so they don't have to be in on it.<br /><br />Kids could have been left in the dark to make it more realistic for the staff, seeing the kids in distress. It seems a bit cruel, but it's possible and if they would not be sure the kids could act the right way, then why not? Although I tend to think that the kids knew beforehand. Maybe not Blanket, but the oldest two.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
About Kai Chase I am not sure but I think she might be in because she said Murray came downstairs and he was frantic and yelling at her to call security but she went back to her work in the kitchen. Wasn't she interested what's going on, why Murray was so frantic about??<br /><br />And that thing with the soup that was still in the refrigerator...why so much attention to that soup at the trial? Ms. Brazil makes sure Kai testifies that the soup remained untouched. Maybe because MJ wasn't there anymore?<br /><br /><br />
<br />In a recent video of La Toya speaking at a presentation she was reinforcing in her speech the need to watch the Illusionist, she said we are watching the right hand (media) and something else is going on over here (left hand) I believe you La Toya I really do :shock: <br /><br />La Toya said that the children told her that Randy Phillips was at the home when MJ returned from rehersals but that they went to bed before their Dad got back because it was late, so that left Randy Phillips in the house when Michael returned on the evening of the 24th ..... question is, is it here that MJ said to him "I can take it from here"? or was Randy Phillips at the home for a more sinister reason? afraid/<br /><br />Why didnt we here in court that Randy Phillips was at the house that night /cook/<br /><br /><br />
The people who were allegedly in the home on June 25 before the LAFD arrived: Kai Chase, Alvarez, Dr. Murray, Paris, Prince and Blanket (Faheem Muhammed also saw the "body"). As for any other staff if they were actually there, we don't have any statements or anything from them; so I'm not including them. <br /><br /> You mentioned the idea that maybe the children were uninformed prior to that date; I tend to think they were because I don't exactly believe MJ would do that. If, for the sake of realistic appearance for staff and others they saw at the hospital, then maybe they were not informed until later in the day. I don't think this scenario was necessary but I don't have evidence either way.<br /><br /> Kai does not need to be involved at all. If a corpse or dummy was brought in the night/early morning prior, then she nor anyone else, know it was not Michael. Kai arrived on June 25 in the AM and left the premises before the stretcher was brought downstairs. (I include *other* staff in this category if they were there.)<br /><br /> Alvarez/Faheem were in on it because of the staged 911 call and the discrepancies in recalling the events etc.<br /><br /> Dr. Murray was ofcourse in the know and his role is self explanatory in my opinion. As Jermaine said "He must have been paid handsomely for "killing" MJ...". His role is much like the doctor in The Illusionist and IS needed.<br /><br /> I once very much supported the MJ was there throughout everything that day as I didn't think it was a "fanciful" theory at all. I did realize it IS, and as TS said there are far more risks than benefits. If MJ messed up this once in a lifetime chance just for mere fun, he could not do it again because he would be like the boy who cried wolf. Thusly, no one would believe it and the numerology HAD to happen the way it did as it was planned for far too long.<br />Therefore I think a corpse and/or dummy was used for sake of realism in events. A corpse wouldn't had to have "fooled" anyone other than the extra hospital staff etc., and makes more sense.
Just as a curiosity: Kai testifies that on June 25th Murray didn't came as usual to take the vegetables fresh juice for Michael, at around 10 - 10:30 am. If she is not in the hoax - it means that she's telling the truth that it was an everyday routine for Murray came downstairs at 10-10:30 am to pick up the juice. So Murray really had to be there every day and do this for 2 months prior to June 25th, so Kai can testify it later. If this is a hoax, was Murray at the residence during that couple of months, every day, picking up the juice?<br /><br />I'm not saying Kai is in but she looks pretty close to the children and I think it is a little risky, with her there so close, to let her out of the hoax. Let's suppose she really could have decided to see for herself what was wrong with Michael when Murray came downstairs yelling frantic. Then what? How could they have prevented her to go upstairs and see what's going on? I know they couldn't have stopped ME crash/ crash/ crash/<br /><br />It's also strange that when she's asked if she saw Prince going upstairs after SHE called him, she said she DIDN'T see Prince going upstairs WTF?? WTF??? How she didn't see him when she called him there :? ?
In support of the corpse and/or dummy theory: <br /><br />-The room was heated, and both paramedics and hospital staff said the patient was dead for a long time prior to 911 being called. A corpse (or dummy) is ofcourse very much "D.O.A." or "dead on arrival". <br />Some statements from people who handled the body include:<br /><br /> *Blount said patient was dead at house and the patient had flatlined when hooked up to monitor. <br /><br /> *Dr. Cooper stated on stand in court, "Mr. Jackson was dead long before he became a patient."<br /><br /> *Dr. Cooper pronounced patient dead twice. Once on the phone with paramedics and again at the hospital.<br /> <br />-Paramedic couldn't recognize the patient.<br /><br />- The body would be used merely for realism and to avoid "exposure of hoax" risks. <br />If the hospital staff (two doctors) were not in on it, they could have been encouraged by Murray to work on it until the announced death time or were told to wait until a specfic time for an unknown reason to them.<br /><br />-In court, Walgren mentioned experiments on people using propofol, and coincidently, anesthesiology students use corpses for experimentation. Michael allegedly died of "propofol intoxication" an anesthetic.<br /><br /><br /> I also want to add that if just Blanket didn't know about the hoax beforehand; it could explain why Latoya said Blanket believed Michael was on "vacation". He most likely wouldn't have, and even now, really understand the hoax being so young.<br /><br /> Another point is if anyone on scene that day who was not "in the know" found out about the hoax, they could have been told to not say anything by government official's (FBI/Police given their involvement) because of the seriousness of Michael's circumstance and/or forced to sign a confidentiality agreement.
9 other staff members were sent home before MJ was transported to UCLA..I presume they were the homehelp....but who ordered them to go home, and why were they sent home ??<br /><br />Were they not supposed to see something that morning?<br /><br />So only Murray, was in the room, Alverez witnessed a dead body being worked on,<br /> Amir was there to help get the cars ready, and so was Mohammed....<br />So just Murray and the paramedics and the children and some bodyguards......witnessed everything..
@Gina That is a good point about Kai and the juice. TS mentioned *need* being key and there is no need for her to be in the know, but perhaps she is.<br /><br /> Remember no one was allowed upstairs, I'm sure security would have stopped her if she wasn't in the hoax and tried to go up. Maybe also, Murray really did stay with Michael for a few weeks/months and got him his juice lol, who knows.<br /> <br /> We'll find out anyway, that's what this thread is for.<br /><br /> @2good2btrue Security, I believe either Faheem or Amir sent the staff home.<br /><br />
<br />9 other staff members were sent home before MJ was transported to UCLA..I presume they were the homehelp....but who ordered them to go home, and why were they sent home ??<br /><br />Were they not supposed to see something that morning?<br /><br />So only Murray, was in the room, Alverez witnessed a dead body being worked on,<br /> Amir was there to help get the cars ready, and so was Mohammed....<br />So just Murray and the paramedics and the children and some bodyguards......witnessed everything..<br />
<br /><br />Kai says security asked them to go home, between 13:00 - 13:05<br /><br />
<br />@Gina That is a good point about Kai and the juice. TS mentioned *need* being key and there is no need for her to be in the know, but perhaps she is.<br /><br />[size=14pt]Remember no one was allowed upstairs, I'm sure security would have stopped her [/size]if she wasn't in the hoax and tried to go up. Maybe also, Murray really did stay with Michael for a few weeks/months and got him his juice lol, who knows.<br /> <br />We'll find out anyway, that's what this thread is for.<br /><br />@2good2btrue Security, I believe either Faheem or Amir sent the staff home.<br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />Security wasn't there when Murray came downstairs yelling frantic, in fact he asked KAI "Get help, get [size=14pt]security,[/size] get Prince!!!" So there wasn't any security at that moment who could have stopped her going upstairs.
I am thinking about who or what was in the ambulance the June 25, but i'm going to start with the photo, if once again the photo that we all know that it is not that day and is the only "evidence" that Michael was in the ambulance, in serious ?. By logical meaning is not Michael it be in at the ambulance,.. to lose time and money in a photo if Michael was in the ambulance, the main objective of this photo is to convince the world that Michael was in the ambulance.<br /><br />Why this video is so poor in quality? And it is precisely the time it enters the stretcher to the ambulance and may not be observed if someone or something is there.<br /><br />
What IF this all is different, and I go more with bec's opinion. This is something I’ve been thinking for some time.<br /><br />- How do we know for sure the paramedics are paramedics and not people hired in the “team” (i.e. Michael’s team) to play paramedics;<br />- How do we know that the doctors are the real doctors (R. Cooper, etc.) and not people hired in the team to play doctors;<br />- How do we know the 911 call was made to 911 and it’s not a recording; that wouldn’t need anyone in besides an “operator” and Alvarez to record a “call”;<br />- How do we know there was any staff at UCLA that day; what if they used another entrance in less crowded side of the hospital and no one knew what was going on there, besides the people in the team? Or if they signed non-disclosure agreements, they won’t open the mouth. Maybe they chose UCLA for a reason. Maybe this hospital is up to such things and they knew it could be done there.<br />- The people at the house must know; there’s no reason why they wouldn’t. The children, Alvarez, Murray, Kai, at least. <br />- If the court was not real and the judge in (I think about the toys, the elephant, the alarm in the court room, the verdict and the “squiggles” that the judge didn’t comment against), then the people testifying must be in the “team”; how do we know for sure that all the doctors that testified are indeed who they say they are? Walgren said when Flannagan called Murray “Doctor”, he objected and said “that’s not proven” or something like that, and Flannagan said “it’s not proven he’s a doctor?”;<br />- What if the ambulance and fire truck are props? The ambulance was moving extremely slowly, a person could have died if they moved that slow in an emergency, taking the ambulance out of the gates in 2-3 takes. Ambulance drivers must be very trained.<br />- Michael would go in the “ambulance” to UCLA in this case; because it would be what Jermaine said in his book- fooling the media on one hand. Wasn’t Michael going out in a wheel chair to be photographed by the media? I see no possible risk by going with the “team” in an “ambulance” to UCLA where people knew what they had to do there. It could be done without him, but WHO could have seen him if he went? What if they arrived, and went into a less crowded side of the hospital – to meet the family and the rest and be sure they do and say as he wants? Wouldn’t be a risk to let this all in other’s hands, be it family? Even if they know, what if the screwed up? And he had to be there to tie loose ends and make sure they do as he wants.<br />- Why UCLA didn’t release any statement if they are not in? What if Michael has relations in high places, including UCLA, that allowed him to do this? <br />This is something I thought of and I thought a lot whether to post this all or not, but a logical way for me to make this possible is if you have a team (people hired to do this, of high confidence). You cannot do it alone and base yourself they won’t notice (people at the hospital, paramedics, etc.). And if they are real doctors/paramedics you can risk they will screw up. But if they are your team, they don’t work as paramedics, doctors, they are what you would call “actors”. People Michael would trust that won’t risk their job or anything by doing it. What if Michael knows people at UCLA, high people. He could just say he needs UCLA as “studio” to film this. And they could sign an agreement, for a lot of money. And this goes for EVERYONE from then on.<br /><br />I’m not sure it ties all up together perfectly, I can't know everything that Michael does, but at the moment I wanted to share my thoughts. I know I can be wrong. But I remember BACK saying that with the people Michael knows, he can do a lot of things. Michael has come to know every president, high profile people, key people in society that could help him pull this off. I remember BACK saying "Don't worry, they won't try to do something knowing he has me on his team". Implying Michael has very strong people on his side.Why couldn't some key people in police, key people at UCLA, key people at the coroners, key people in justice field be in? If Michael has relations with such powerful people, this is possible. He wouldn't need the entire police, the entire justice system, the entire FBI, but some key people that could allow him to do it. Key people in these fields that would show another side to the public, while having an agreement with Michael. And it's Hollywood, where things are more possible than in other places. The others would be powns. As in a pyramid: people at the top know, while the lower you get, they just have to know what they have to do, but not in direct contact with the plot.<br />
Being that I have some differening opinions about this hoax I will for the most part just follow this thread and see where it leads. There are things that it appears to have been satisfactorily debunked by the majority that I still have suspicions about. Not debunked for me. so I’ll leave that door just slightly ajar for my own purposes.<br /><br />As to my opinion of whether it was a dummy or a real dead/live body taken in the ambulance, after seeing what could be done with dummies these days, I go with that theory. If this was planned then there is no reason for Michael to hae been in that ambulance and more than likely not even in that house when these things took place. It would have been more difficult for him to escape from the hospital unnoticed after he had arrived in the ambulance so to me that risk would have been unnecessary. I believe he was long gone some time before then. However, I do still believe that he staged some of the pictures beforehand. And I believe that Kai Chase was in on it. Otherwise, she would have been more alarmed and emotional and asked more questions of a screaming Conrad. The children I do not think were in on it and were distraught when they saw the state of the dummy when they came upstairs thinking it was really their father. Otherwise, I don’t think they would have trekked upstairs uninvited. But as children, if they were in ear range of Murray’s distress, they would not have heeded instruction to not venture into MJ’s room when they thought their father was in serious medical trouble. They followed their hearts. Maybe as thought out beforehand by Conrad to make it appear datroot.<br /><br />My question is this, what is the relevance of Murray and Alvarez having different stories about what happened in that room? Was in intended that they be on two accords? If so, why? I’m having trouble with this piece because I do believe that also Murray Amir and Alvarez was in on it.
<br />And finally, once the how’s of the hoax become clear, then the why’s of the hoax will become even clearer than before. Understanding the why’s is very important—not only before BAM, but especially after.<br />
<br /><br />Sometimes, when trying to solve a 'brainteaser', I tend to work backwards...i.e. come up with a 'theory' of the end result/purpose (the 'why'), then with that in mind go back and try to fill in the blanks of how the end was reached (the 'how(s)'). This has been difficult (for me) in this instance because TS separated the level into 3 parts and asked that we tackle them in order. However, out of all the 'parts' he could've come up with for Level 7...TS chose 1) was there an ambulance at Carolwood that went to UCLA on June 25th; 2) what or who was in that ambulance; and 3) was it for a sting or simply a hoax. The first two parts deal with the 'hows', the last part deals with the 'why'.<br /><br />Based on the way he set-up Level 7, it's easier for me to come up with a 'theory' for the 'why', then work backwards...because depending on the 'why', certain 'hows' become irrelevant. For example, if the whole thing was simply for the purposes of a hoax (i.e. no sting, just Mike having fun and/or teaching the media or fans a lesson), then IMO a real corpse would not be necessary because neither the media nor the fans ever saw a 'dead' MJ. However, if the 'why' involves a sting, a real serious sting, then that changes things depending on WHO the target of the sting is.<br /><br />I'm still wrapping my head around certain points to strengthen my 'end theory' but I do believe that the 'why' of all this is for serious reasons...I do not believe that MJ would've gone through this whole thing just for fun, or simply to make a movie (although that could be a part of it...but not the main reason), or simply to get back at the media and/or fans. I think it goes much deeper than that. So, although I may very well end up being wrong (and I'm perfectly ok with being wrong...my 'faith' in MJ being alive is rock-solid, so being wrong about anything else doesn't worry me)...I'm gonna work off my initial 'end theory' that there is a sting involved (I tackled this in the Sept 27 thread but kept reaching dead ends, or at least I didn't go as deep into the theory as I could have or maybe should have).<br /><br />So...IF there was a sting (7c) and this would affect who or what was in the ambulance (7b), which we know was at Carolwood on June 25th (7a)....then WHO was the target of the sting? Again, I say IF because, at this point, I can't prove whether or not there was a sting...I'm just working on a 'theory'....but IF 7c affects 7b, then the target of the sting could have been in the house. We have been going on the assumption that the people who saw the 'body' in house were all in on it....but perhaps we've been wrong in assuming that. Either that (i.e. the target is someone who was in the house) OR the target is someone who has a 'connection' to someone in the house (i.e. a thwarted murder attempt).<br /><br />I do believe Murray is in on it and therefore not the target of any sting (this wouldn't make sense anyway because he was found guilty, so where's the sting?). The kids obviously wouldn't be a target. This leaves only Amir, Faheem, and Alvarez prior to paramedics arriving (Kai never saw the body). IF these 3 can be eliminated as possible sting targets (and I tend to believe that the 911 call was fake, so I'm thinking that Alvarez would be in on it---but my 'logic' could be wrong there)...then the only other 'target' I can think of would be someone who was NOT in the house but has a 'connection' to someone who WAS in the house.<br /><br />Does any of this make any sense? lol I have to think on it some more and try to strengthen or debunk the 'end theory' one way or another...but this is how I'm looking at it. IF we go with the 'sting' theory, and TS is asking us to think of WHO was in the house prior to paramedics arriving, then that may put a different spin on things.<br /><br />But I concede that in working backwards, you risk screwing up the 'hows' IF the 'end theory' is wrong to begin with...which is just what I may be doing . Perhaps this is just one of the 'fanciful' theories TS referred to. <br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.
Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.<br /><br />Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.<br /><br />Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.<br /><br />To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.
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Live MJ:<br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br />Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening<br /><br />There are certain key people, already collectively accepted to be in on it (bodyguards, Paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA, coroner) that would ensure MJ's safe passage that day. <br /><br />Cons:<br />Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient<br />Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving<br />
<br /><br />I await your attempts at process of elimination of the Live MJ theory and I'm hoping you address some of the points I brought up, TS, because I did not include "Because it's fun" as a Pro in support of the theory. I have thrown that out in the past, in conversation, but when it comes to the nitty gritty reality of it, I set it aside... because you have to. <br /><br />So, "fun" part thrown out the window, what have you addressed? It couldn't be live MJ in the ambulance because TII was billed as "different" then what we would expect from MJ? Well clearly, nearly his entire fan base would call a hoax definitely DIFFERENT then the MJ they know, as proven by their vast numbers supporting the death scenario... so MJ is already behaving DIFFERENTLY... and I do not accept that it is logical that the byline DISCOVER THE MAN YOU NEVER KNEW was addressed only to hoaxers, especially considering the line "FOR THE FANS..." heralded the opening of the movie.<br /><br />Success of the project trumps fun, agreed, which is why I didn't list FUN as a Pro in support of the Live MJ theory.<br /><br />Again, change only what you need to change. MJ in that ambulance from Carrolwood--->UCLA abides by this investigation method in it's purest form. The only thing that needs to be changed is the DEAD part. Everything else stays the same.<br /><br />We know Bodyguards are in on it. We know Paramedics are in on it. We know Cooper/Nyugen are in on it. I agree with Gina that Kai must be in on it because the risk of her breaking character (running upstairs) seeing something (Security NOT ALLOWED in the house) is far too great to leave her out (risk outweighs possible benefit).<br /><br />Considering we are only dealing with the scene at the house and traveling to UCLA, and being unloaded just outside the door, and subsequently ushered through to the private ER wing; what witnesses are we concerned with seeing Live MJ move/breathe/cough necessitating something being used that would play dead better then MJ himself? <br /><br />Those are brief potential views... extremely brief and extremely limited opportunities.<br /><br />-Through a crack in the fence, as Ben's video illustrates---VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ANYTHING CLEARLY, you're not going to be able to stop and stare hard enough to see if the "patient"s chest is rising and falling (breathing). In order to see that you would have to have an uninterrupted view of the rib cage area for at least 4 full seconds (15-20 breaths/minute=average respiration rate). <br />-Through the ambulance window-- Again, unlikely from the start, just because it would be difficult for anyone to get past large security man and Ben's team to sneak a peak. Even if they did, again, you have the 4 second need to witness respiration.<br />-While being unloaded at UCLA-- We see the ambulance having backed almost directly up to the doorway of the ER, allowing Paramedics quick and direct access to getting inside. Anyone who might get a view of the stretcher here, again, isn't going to be able to see past security and paramedics for 4 uninterrupted seconds to see MJ breathing. <br />-While being rushed through the ER en-route to the private wing MJ's entourage reportedly was ushered into. Again, with bodyguards and paramedics surrounding the stretcher, no one unauthorized is going to get a 4 second uninterrupted view of MJ's rib cage to determine if he is breathing or not. <br /><br />I am hard pressed to find a situation from loading at Carrolwood to unloading at UCLA ("who or what went to UCLA that day") where anyone not in on the hoax would get an uninterrupted 4 second view of the "body" and thus making "possibly seeing Live MJ breathe" a major concern and therefore RISK to this theory.<br /><br />Again, just focus on this one aspect: Carrolwood--->UCLA for purposes of my post and support or finding holes in the Live MJ theory. Helicopter and Coroner van are not directly related as a switch to a corpse or dummy could be done @UCLA, and is therefore irrelevant to this post.<br /><br />So, TS, I am having trouble finding the risk of this theory and consider the benefits I listed:<br /><br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body" (small glimpses <4 seconds, as explained above)<br />Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening<br /><br />strong enough to outweigh the risks in this Live MJ theory. There is risk with every scenario presented, so "risk" alone doesn't debunk anything.
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"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."