<br /><br />[size=10pt]Thank you Mjonmind , I feel the same,but don't pay attention,cause is just DISTRACTION,ok geek/???<br />Now there were 2 ambulances PERIOD TWO AMBULANCES OK????? Ben and Hollywood TV were FILMING THE SAME EVENT,that took place on TWO SEPARATE RE-enactments!!!! When you are doing a movie you need to TO DO IT more than once,lol,at LEAST TWICE.In this video you can CLEARLY see that there had been 2 ambulances all along,lol.After the first ambulance goes to the hospital,you clearly see another one inside the gates,PERIOD.Watch the video,cause in the END of it,you will see the second ambulance.PERIOD geek/ !!!!<br />TS ,TS please come out,BUNNY man albino/,TICK-TACK geek/ !!!![/size]<br /><br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />Wasn't this theory and video debunked last year explaining that who ever recorded and placed it on youtube got the video of events in wrong sequence, backwards. Therefore you see one amb. backs up and leaves, then the "other one" inside the gate. That's what I remember.<br />
<br /><br />scorpionchik, this is what I have been saying for the longest time, they tell me no, it is 2 seperate movies, same ambulance.. they restarted over the tape..
<br /><br />[size=10pt]Thank you Mjonmind , I feel the same,but don't pay attention,cause is just DISTRACTION,ok geek/???<br />Now there were 2 ambulances PERIOD TWO AMBULANCES OK????? Ben and Hollywood TV were FILMING THE SAME EVENT,that took place on TWO SEPARATE RE-enactments!!!! When you are doing a movie you need to TO DO IT more than once,lol,at LEAST TWICE.In this video you can CLEARLY see that there had been 2 ambulances all along,lol.After the first ambulance goes to the hospital,you clearly see another one inside the gates,PERIOD.Watch the video,cause in the END of it,you will see the second ambulance.PERIOD geek/ !!!!<br />TS ,TS please come out,BUNNY man albino/,TICK-TACK geek/ !!!![/size]<br /><br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />Wasn't this theory and video debunked last year explaining that who ever recorded and placed it on youtube got the video of events in wrong sequence, backwards. Therefore you see one amb. backs up and leaves, then the "other one" inside the gate. That's what I remember.<br />
<br /><br />scorpionchik, this is what I have been saying for the longest time, they tell me no, it is 2 seperate movies, same ambulance.. they restarted over the tape.. <br />
<br /><br />Who tells 'NO'? If am not mistaken it was bec who replied to my question about 2 ambs., I thought so at the time, that sequence of events is wrong and subject was closed with the conclusion there was 1 ambulance.
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009.
<br /><br />
Okay, I agree that it’s time to wrap up 7a and move on to 7b. <br /><br />I’m going to make a few closing comments regarding 7a, and then I will post 7b introduction as soon as I have it ready (it will be a new redirect, but not a new thread).
<br /><br />Just posting for reference.<br /><br />@MissG, the "prize", if there is one, is our collective legitimacy.
<br /><br />[size=12pt]Live MJ:[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br />Allows Van Video to be recorded in real time at end of the process<br />Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient<br />Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving<br /><br /><br /><br />[size=12pt]Live MJ Double:[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br />Allows Van Video to be recorded in real time at end of the process<br />Allows the real MJ to "escape" undetected long before the events of Day Zero begin<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient<br />Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving<br />Risk of mistakes; MJ hands the reins of this project, along with the responsibility of a live performance/no do-overs to someone else<br />Additional person required to be in on it<br /><br /><br /><br />[size=12pt]Real Dead Body[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />Allows UCLA docs and Paramedics and Coroner to tell the truth regarding responsiveness/clinical death<br />Keeps up appearances to unauthorized personnel, it really IS a corpse<br />Allows legal documents to be "less" fake-- someone really DID die<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />UCLA Docs and Coroner would still be participating in deception,[size=8pt] bcuz the body could not be ID'ed as MJ-- accepted truth, statistical impossibility: an MJ double with vitiligo and some matching scars died on 6/25/09, nor would doctors or the coroner be fooled by a preserved (/or frozen) corpse.[/size]<br />Would be unrecognizable as MJ prompting suspicion from unauthorized personnel who happen to see the body<br />Possible legality issues upon reveal, desecration of a corpse, tampering with a corpse, abuse of a corpse, failure to report a death<br />Morality issues in public relations upon reveal<br />Legal documents are still fake, they ID the corpse as MJosephJ<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />[size=12pt]Dummy[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />Storage and disposal-- [size=8pt]how do you get rid of it after the fact? A life-size MJ dummy floating around not locked down after the events of 6/25/09 would be a massive risk.[/size]<br />It wouldn't fool medical personnel<br /><br /><br />[size=12pt]Nothing[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />??<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />If anyone sees an empty ambulance that isn't supposed to see an empty ambulance (at either end), immediate strong suspicion might be raised and considering MJs typical appearances in the news, could cast doubt over the entire affair right off the bat.<br /><br /><br /><br />Please feel free to add to these categories as I certainly didn't compile the full list for each. I probably missed more then several points. It might help narrow things down.<br /><br />I came in thinking it was probably nothing that went to UCLA on 6/25/09 but now I'm back to the Live MJ theory. There are certain key people, already collectively accepted to be in on it (bodyguards, Paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA, coroner) that would ensure MJ's safe passage that day. The Pros of MJ doing it himself on that list are too many and too important to ignore (major benefits), especially compared with the other main options we have presented.
[size=9pt]<br /> Besides, the entire state of California is not in on the hoax. MJ has been planning this hoax for many years; and he had the time and influence to get a few key people in the right positions to pull it off—and yes, even government agencies still have some good people in them. Look at history: many times people in high positions have stood up against the corruption in their own system (government, or church, etc).[/size]<br /> <br /> But MJ did not involve large quantities of people. In fact, the “three-way theory” is basically correct {[size=9pt]http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5382&start=0[/size][size=9pt]}; this theory states that the fewer people “in on it”, the better (although more than three are actually involved, and the “three-way theory” does allow for more than three).[/size][size=9pt]<br /> <br /> Also, as far as possible, legal loopholes were used. Nevertheless, with a hoax of this magnitude and importance: whether the line was ever crossed, between being inside or outside of legal loopholes, is a question that probably doesn’t even need to be answered.[/size]<br /> <br /> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br /> 4-37. Hints on the “How’s” of the Hoax<br /> <br /> In this update, I have gone into great detail about the timing of the hoax (as well as a few other aspects). Previously, I have gone into great detail about the reasons for the hoax {[size=9pt]http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/search.php?author_id=1440&sr=posts[/size][size=9pt]}. That leaves only one frontier remaining: how did MJ succeed in pulling off this massive hoax?[/size][size=9pt]<br /> <br /> I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.[/size]<br /> <br /> For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory.<br /> <br /> I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?<br /> <br /> Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour.<br /> <br /> This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.<br /> <br /> Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times {[size=9pt]http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/[/size][size=9pt]}? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? {[/size][size=9pt]http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/[/size][size=9pt];[/size][size=9pt]http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/[/size][size=9pt];[/size][size=9pt]http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/[/size][size=9pt]}[/size]<br />[size=9pt]<br /> 4-38.[/size] Only a Few Would Need to Be “In On It”<br /> <br /> Let me also clue you in on a few tricks, so that only a relatively few people would need to be “in on it”. The endlessly discussed helicopter ride to the coroner: it could’ve had a living and/or a dead body in it, but not MJ; and yet none of the people in the copter, or working that situation, would’ve had any clue that MJ was alive.<br /> <br /> All you would need to do is create a diversion for the media and public: the helicopter and all would be a big show for the media, while they transport the (supposedly) “real” MJ’s body in an unmarked vehicle—this would keep MJ’s body safer. And all the people “involved” in that diversion operation would play right along, and obey without question like good little boys and girls,thinking all the while that MJ’s dead body was being transported in some unmarked vehicle (and not even questioning whether or not MJ was actually dead). And even if they suspected later that MJ is alive, how would they know? They would not know, they would just suspect it (like hoax believers).<br /> <br /> The fact that it’s a criminal case is another good alibi for secrecy and cover-up; this way, nobody thinks twice when they’re told not to talk about what they did or did not see at UCLA on June 25 (or other times and places).<br /> <br /> Some have said that Forest Lawn (FL) would need to be in on the hoax; and maybe they are, but maybe not. If there was an actual dead body used during at least some of the process: then a dead body could’ve been at FL, even though it was not MJ. And sooner or later, the family could say: “We’ve decided to bury MJ somewhere else; but for privacy and security reasons, we want the public to think that he is buried here.”<br /> <br /> They might even have FL sign confidentiality agreements, promising not to let anyone know that MJ was not buried at FL. Of course FL would still get paid, because the family did purchase space there {[size=9pt]http://http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/04/us/04jackson.html[/size][size=9pt]}; and since FL got their money, they would not care where MJ was actually buried, and that would be the end of it—FL might never imagine that MJ is still alive.[/size][size=9pt]<br /> <br /> Do I need to give any more hints? I think I’ve said enough already. Besides, you want some surprises left for after Bamsday, don’t you?[/size]<br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=7194.msg116959#msg116959<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />[size=10pt]#2.[/size][size=10pt]MJ Was Gone to the Airport[/size]<br /> For this scenario, I’m going to go on the idea that TS is actually MJ. But please do not take this and run with it; I am merely showing that if MJ himself could make the same statements about the 911 call, and still not be a fake—then just as much or more could someone other than MJ make these same statements, and yet not be a fake. <br /> <br /> What if MJ had already gone to the airport, before the 911 call was made; he was not there in person, to observe what actually happened. Someone at the house not in on it was urging that someone call 911, and by 12:20 Alvarez felt that he could not delay any longer without raising too much suspicion; so he called 911 a little early. In spite of the early call, the transfer to LAFD was not completed until 12:21; and this provided an opportunity for good old TMZ to still report the intended time, 12:21 http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call[size=10pt]. Other media copied TMZ’s report, and so 12:21 became the time of the 911 call reported almost everywhere. Nevertheless, this scenario does not explain the discrepancies in timing given by BHPD and LAFD, etc.[/size][size=10pt]TS [/size][size=8pt]July 07, 2011, 07:00:13 PM[/size][size=9pt]This next quote is rather lengthy, with excerpts from pages 326-331: “Michael’s fans have been particularly helpful in providing useful information. Because they were so loyal to Michael, [/size][size=9pt]they knew his habits extremely well and were struck by the deviation from the norm[/size][size=9pt]on the nights just prior to, and the night of, Michael’s death. … According to fans, when Michael was on his way to rehearsal on [June 24] the day of his death, as he drove through the gate at Carolwood, he did not roll his window down and talk to them.[/size][size=9pt]That was totally out of character for Michael[/size][size=9pt]. I’ve[/size][size=9pt]never known Michael to behave in that way[/size][size=9pt]to a group of fans that had been so devoted to him. … Then, when he arrived at the Staples Center,[/size][size=9pt]he didn’t walk over to his fans[/size][size=9pt]. … That night, June 24, 2009, Michael’s last night of rehearsal before he died, [/size][size=9pt]his usual routine was again interrupted[/size][size=9pt]. … A number of men involved in his business dealings, [/size][size=9pt]who had never before been there during rehearsals[/size][size=9pt], were [/size][size=9pt]waiting[/size][size=9pt]that evening for Michael to get there. Michael and the men remained in his dressing room [/size][size=9pt]for several hours[/size][size=9pt]… I believe that [/size][size=9pt]Michael knew[/size][size=9pt]at that moment [/size][size=9pt]he was going to die soon[/size][size=9pt]. … When Michael left his final rehearsal on the night that he passed, he managed to deliver a covert message to some fans through tears. ‘You’ve gotta help me,’ he whispered. ‘You’ve gotta get me out of here.’ … As usual, the fans sped to Carolwood to get there before Michael arrived. They did so, as always, but [/size][size=9pt]this night was different[/size][size=9pt]. According to the fans who stayed outside Michael’s house every night to watch him come home from rehearsal, on the night of June 24, 2009, the last night before he passed, when he arrived home from rehearsal, [/size][size=9pt]the security measures at the house were much different from any other night[/size][size=9pt]when Michael returned from rehearsal. [/size][size=9pt]A line of roughly ten men were lined up on both sides of his gate[/size][size=9pt]. Normally, he had only the two or three security guards that were with him, and the one that was in the post inside the yard. But [/size][size=9pt]this night was different, security was everywhere[/size][size=9pt], and [/size][size=9pt]again Michael’s car didn’t stop[/size][size=9pt]on the way inside the gate. … [One fan reported:] ‘I stand outside the gate, and Michael has the [/size][size=9pt]same routine every night[/size][size=9pt]. After he comes home from rehearsal, he goes upstairs, and [/size][size=9pt]about twenty minutes later the light in a room goes off[/size][size=9pt]. The night that he died, [/size][size=9pt]the light stayed on all night[/size][size=9pt]. I got worried. [/size][size=9pt]The light never went off[/size][size=9pt]. I didn’t get it. I didn’t understand what had happened. It was [/size][size=9pt]very strange[/size][size=9pt]. … Oh, and [/size][size=9pt]security was acting strange[/size][size=9pt],’ she said. I knew I needed to speak to [/size][size=9pt]several other fans regarding that night[/size][size=9pt], and when I did,[/size][size=9pt]their stories were the same[/size][size=9pt].”[/size][size=9pt]<br /> <br /> We have long been told that MJ never got any sleep that night, and he was still trying to get to sleep the next morning, when Dr. Murray gave him the propofol to put him to sleep. But now we know[/size] why he couldn't get to sleep that night—because he forgot to shut the light off when he went to bed!!!<br />
<br /><br /><br /><br />Bec, though I believe MJ himself doing all the ambulance stunt stuff is the most appealing and fun, I've changed my mind because of all TS's words. He is strongly hinting that MJ did indeed go to the airport, with something indeed dead needing a very warm temperature up in the bedroom, and producing some bizarre behaviour during the time immediately after the 24th rehearsal. I know that's where TS is headed, so I've adjusted my mental thinking. We can try to debunk all the other options but in the end, TS really knows what happened. The question is--when did MJ slip away--right after rehearsal, early morning, mid-morning? It appears to me that it may be a combo of corpse at the bedroom and coroner, and double sitting up on the stretcher and stepping out of the coroner van. IDK <br /><br /><br />(Edit: sorry about the sizing words mixed in--I swear my posting tools have become possessed since I switched to Google Chrome. They just do what they want though I fight them :evil: )
MJonmind, the million dollar question is... for what purpose?<br /><br />What benefit?<br /><br />Considering the Paramedics, the two UCLA Docs, the Bodyguards, the Coroner we collectively agree have to be in on it, who is a real corpse intended to fool?<br /><br />So far there has been no answer to that question so to me it's not a very strong theory.
<br />MJonmind, the million dollar question is... for what purpose?<br /><br />What benefit?<br /><br />Considering the Paramedics, the two UCLA Docs, the Bodyguards, the Coroner we collectively agree have to be in on it, who is a real corpse intended to fool?<br />So far there has been no answer to that question so to me it's not a very strong theory.<br />
<br /><br />Good question bec. Maybe real corpse, dummy, or nothing intended to fool fans, prosecutors and court who bring Murray to trial, found guilty, and will convict for manslaughter.
<br />What about a combination of Live MJ and Dummy?<br />
<br /><br />Remember, we are just talking about Carrolwood--->UCLA. Beyond that stage is irrelevant to 7b.<br /><br />
on 1322199515:
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on 1322197466:
<br />MJonmind, the million dollar question is... for what purpose?<br /><br />What benefit?<br /><br />Considering the Paramedics, the two UCLA Docs, the Bodyguards, the Coroner we collectively agree have to be in on it, who is a real corpse intended to fool?<br />So far there has been no answer to that question so to me it's not a very strong theory.<br />
<br /><br />Good question bec. Maybe real corpse intended to fool fans, prosecutors and court who bring Murray to trial, found guilty, and will convict for manslaughter. <br />
<br /><br />So are you saying the gurney pic is a real dead body that looks *exactly* MJ? I thought the dead MJ double was debunked officially.<br /><br />Because this is the only time the fans, the prosecutors, and the court "saw" the dead body... in that pic in court. So if you're saying a real corpse's use is designed to fool these people, that's what you're referring to. There's no other instance these people (entity) come into contact with a dead MJ body, other then the ambulance pic (proven staged prior). Even if that were the case, that the intent was to fool fans/prosecutors/court, you wouldn't need to send a corpse from Carrolwood to UCLA on 6/25/09 shortly after 1pm for the purpose of fooling people 28 months later in the form of a pic. That pic could be obtained later and entered into MJ's file as evidence for the Prosecutor pretty much at leisure in the months following 6/25/09, considering the autopsy wasn't completed (and submitted) until 9/9/09, that pic wouldn't have needed to exist until then.<br /><br />What is the benefit of using a corpse on 6/25/09 to be transported from Carrolwood to UCLA? There has to be a reason if it's a viable theory. Someone has to have an answer or the theory has to be scrapped once and for all.
SURVEILLANCE VIDEO<br /><br /><br /><br />@3:20 MJ arriving at 12:58am<br /><br />@7:10 a car leaving Carolwood at 1:06am, possibly MJ, so that could mean no Live MJ from Carolwood to UCLA and this could be the time that MJ slipped away (@MJonmind)<;br /><br /><br /><br />....So from Carolwood to UCLA, the only people who would POSSIBLY come into contact with MJ that are not in on the hoax is while the ambo is coming out of the Carolwood residence or other nurses and doctors at UCLA.<br /><br />....This could possibly mean that there was a dummy used...which seems to be more logical then say, nothing in the ambo. <br /><br />Because what if someone who is not in the hoax, saw them bringing MJ into UCLA or leaving Carolwood and saw nothing on the gurney...it would be risky...so by having a dummy, MJ keeps the key players in the hoax (the only ones who had contact with the gurney or ambo (Paramedics, the two UCLA doctors and the Bodyguards)) while the other UCLA staff who might of seen MJ come in on the gurney only saw from afar e.g down the corridor at UCLA etc. and they would think it's him because it looks like someone and it looks like MJ (dummy). <br /><br />Also this has been brought up many times and may mean more then just the fact that MJ likes to play practical jokes...when Lou Ferrigno said that Michael Jackson used to play pranks on the paps, by sending an ambulance with a mannequin of himself in it...so it gets me thinking that MJ was possibly testing this out to see if it could possibly work, if he had to do it for real in the near future.
<br />What about a combination of Live MJ and Dummy?<br />
<br /><br />Remember, we are just talking about Carrolwood--->UCLA. Beyond that stage is irrelevant to 7b.<br /><br />
on 1322199515:
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on 1322197466:
<br />MJonmind, the million dollar question is... for what purpose?<br /><br />What benefit?<br /><br />Considering the Paramedics, the two UCLA Docs, the Bodyguards, the Coroner we collectively agree have to be in on it, who is a real corpse intended to fool?<br />So far there has been no answer to that question so to me it's not a very strong theory.<br />
<br /><br />Good question bec. Maybe real corpse intended to fool fans, prosecutors and court who bring Murray to trial, found guilty, and will convict for manslaughter. <br />
<br /><br />So are you saying the gurney pic is a real dead body that looks *exactly* MJ? I thought the dead MJ double was debunked officially.<br /><br />Because this is the only time the fans, the prosecutors, and the court "saw" the dead body... in that pic in court. So if you're saying a real corpse's use is designed to fool these people, that's what you're referring to. There's no other instance these people (entity) come into contact with a dead MJ body, other then the ambulance pic (proven staged prior). Even if that were the case, that the intent was to fool fans/prosecutors/court, you wouldn't need to send a corpse from Carrolwood to UCLA on 6/25/09 shortly after 1pm for the purpose of fooling people 28 months later in the form of a pic. That pic could be obtained later and entered into MJ's file as evidence for the Prosecutor pretty much at leisure in the months following 6/25/09, considering the autopsy wasn't completed (and submitted) until 9/9/09, that pic wouldn't have needed to exist until then.<br /><br />What is the benefit of using a corpse on 6/25/09 to be transported from Carrolwood to UCLA? There has to be a reason if it's a viable theory. Someone has to have an answer or the theory has to be scrapped once and for all.<br />
<br /><br />Here is whatt I think about Ben's ambulance picture: he could not take the picture to sell, he photoshopped the only we have got and sold it. Here is why I come up with that theory: remember Ben said:"Wherever Michael is, there is always money to make", then I recall Joe and his lawyer that said picture of amb is photoshopped. Sp, Ben is NOT in hoax.<br /><br />I don't care about numerology and long time MJ plan to escape. but what I /we observe, brings to 1 reality, MICHAEL HOAXES DEATH BECAUSE OF MURDER ATTEMPT NOT TO FOOL PEOPLE, MJ wants to TAKE OVER PEOPLE WHO ANNOYED HIM AND FINALLY WANTED HIM DEAD FOR MONEY. We forgot that so far we don't even have real theory of WHY MJ did this? Hoax has to have a valid motive, again it is NOT a praknster joke of Michael because Michael would not hurt fans-non believers faking death for joke. Design theories based on serious motive behind it, then will be easy to know who got to UCLA. <br />Now, my theory is, real Michael was taken to UCLA and possibly was in clinical death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death at the time because I don't believe Murray is in hoax. But then I remember Jermain who said Michael was not with us, was in airport, and getting confused, maybe it was not a slip up, but clue that Michael is not dead and is out of the USA, but it does not necessarilly mean Michael was that night or morning or afternoon in the airport. That said, Michael was taken to UCLA and saved over there, brought back to life and right there family kidnapped him and Jermain announced MJ's death . In this scenario, only family, couple of bodyguards, coroner, and couple of UCLA and authority staff are in hoax. Not paramedics, not Murray, not Ben, not fake fans, not tour shuttle.....too much people cannot be in hoax, not realistic. That's all for now.
Forget the ambulance pic. I was saying that was the only other instance in which MJ's "dead body" was shown to the public (to fool fans/prosecutors, court-->your words) besides the gurney pic since you WERE speculating they used a Real Dead Body in the ambulance ride from Carrolwood to UCLA, to fool these entities. Now suddenly you're flipping and saying you think MJ was actually dead. Was dead? For real?<br /><br />So you're saying the numerology is a coincidence? The date is a coincidence? The time is a coincidence? I do not accept these premises and you offer no reasoning, no proof, no supporting evidence, not now and not ever in the past. You just repeat that over and over in slightly different ways. You can't just conjure it up and call it a legitimate theory. You need back up info with that theory, scorpionchick, if you want it taken seriously. Because as it stands, it's just not plausible.<br /><br />BUT.<br /><br />EVEN IF IT WAS.<br /><br />2 UCLA doctors testified to working on a body, (you claim actually MJ? Or a dead person? Unclear in your theory) for 2 hours and 5 minutes. That's completely preposterous in the real world.<br /><br />Paramedics backed out of a circular driveway, needing 2 takes to get straight through the gates, and took their sweet time pulling forward, in what you claim was, a real emergency.<br /><br />No IV was present in the stretcher pics entering UCLA on what, you claim, was really MJ fighting for his life.<br /><br />The stretcher was elevated at the head carrying, what you claim was, MJ fighting for his life.<br /><br />Or was it a corpse? <br />
Good question bec. Maybe real corpse intended to fool fans, prosecutors and court who bring Murray to trial, found guilty, and will convict for manslaughter.
<br /><br />But then you speculate:<br />
Now, my theory is, real Michael was taken to UCLA and possibly was in clinical death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death at the time because I don't believe Murray is in hoax. <br /><snip><br />That said, Michael was taken to UCLA and saved over there, brought back to life and right there family kidnapped him and Jermain announced MJ's death .
<br /><br />So which is it, scorpionchick? Do you know? Have you thought it through? You can't have a dead body and MJ fighting for his life both going to UCLA in an ambulance. There was only one ambulance @Carrolwood that day.<br /><br />
I don't care about numerology
<br /><br />I think it's that you don't understand it.
@bec I did not say there were 2 ambulances, clinical death is not final death and MJ could not bring back to life in not enough equipped ambulance , I do undestand very well numerology, whereas in fact people here over and over make mistakes in calculation adding up half of dates that deviates rule of numerology. So, there is no valid numerology has been used so far you & others keep mentioning it. Example: june 25, 2009=6; because 6+2+5+2+9 =24=2+4=6, so where is MJ's favorite 7 here or 11 that makes everybody believe that MJ chose to die that day on purpose, according to plan????Or 12.21 time also = 6, so what happen to 7? Or 2.26 MJ was announced dead=2+2+6=10. Now adding all sums we are getting 6+6+10=22=4. What numerology you are talking about? I don't see it.<br />Just go head everybody with your theories full of fantasy and I will be just watchin. TIME WILL SHOW.
<br /><br />[size=12pt]Live MJ:[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br />Allows Van Video to be recorded in real time at end of the process<br />Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient<br />Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving<br /><br /><br /><br />[size=12pt]Live MJ Double:[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br />Allows Van Video to be recorded in real time at end of the process<br />Allows the real MJ to "escape" undetected long before the events of Day Zero begin<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient<br />Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving<br />Risk of mistakes; MJ hands the reins of this project, along with the responsibility of a live performance/no do-overs to someone else<br />Additional person required to be in on it<br /><br /><br /><br />[size=12pt]Real Dead Body[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />Allows UCLA docs and Paramedics and Coroner to tell the truth regarding responsiveness/clinical death<br />Keeps up appearances to unauthorized personnel, it really IS a corpse<br />Allows legal documents to be "less" fake-- someone really DID die<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />UCLA Docs and Coroner would still be participating in deception,[size=8pt] bcuz the body could not be ID'ed as MJ-- accepted truth, statistical impossibility: an MJ double with vitiligo and some matching scars died on 6/25/09, nor would doctors or the coroner be fooled by a preserved (/or frozen) corpse.[/size]<br />Would be unrecognizable as MJ prompting suspicion from unauthorized personnel who happen to see the body<br />Possible legality issues upon reveal, desecration of a corpse, tampering with a corpse, abuse of a corpse, failure to report a death<br />Morality issues in public relations upon reveal<br />Legal documents are still fake, they ID the corpse as MJosephJ<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />[size=12pt]Dummy[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />Storage and disposal-- [size=8pt]how do you get rid of it after the fact? A life-size MJ dummy floating around not locked down after the events of 6/25/09 would be a massive risk.[/size]<br />It wouldn't fool medical personnel<br /><br /><br />[size=12pt]Nothing[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />??<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />If anyone sees an empty ambulance that isn't supposed to see an empty ambulance (at either end), immediate strong suspicion might be raised and considering MJs typical appearances in the news, could cast doubt over the entire affair right off the bat.<br /><br /><br /><br />Please feel free to add to these categories as I certainly didn't compile the full list for each. I probably missed more then several points. It might help narrow things down.<br /><br />I came in thinking it was probably nothing that went to UCLA on 6/25/09 but now I'm back to the Live MJ theory. There are certain key people, already collectively accepted to be in on it (bodyguards, Paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA, coroner) that would ensure MJ's safe passage that day. The Pros of MJ doing it himself on that list are too many and too important to ignore (major benefits), especially compared with the other main options we have presented.<br />
<br /><br />I think this is a great way to investigate, although besides the pros and cons, we could add "supporting evidence" and "contradicting evidence". I will use this same list.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Oh you naughty people - you started discussing 7b before TS fired the starting pistol! I was going to ask Souza, is this allowed, but apparently you've just ok'd it?! <br /><br />@Bec, I had to laugh at your post and keeness to get the ball rolling! I have a very similar post with options, pros and cons which was waiting in the wings and is now pretty much useless due to your better worded one!<br /><br />Thinking about 7b really highlights the importance of knowing just who is in on it. And I'm aware that TS said we are sometimes too quick to solve problems by saying so and so must be in on it! (not a direct quote but words to that effect)<br /><br />But if we have bodyguards, paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA and coroner 'in on it' (and I hope it's safe to say they are, due to their involvement in the trial) then essentially there is no need for anything to be transported, except perhaps, at most, a load of sheets crumpled up and arranged in a 'body' shape on the stretcher to satisfy any unexpected sightings - easier to dispose of when no longer needed than the other options.<br /><br />If these people are part of the hoax, then there is no-one to 'fool', and therefore no need for corpses, dummies, doubles or live MJ. No NEED - and much as I like the fun idea of MJ acting it all out himself, there is no NEED, and there is great risk of blowing everything before it had barely got started.<br /><br />Not only is there no need for 'anything', there is also a huge benefit which concerns other people (passers-by, hospital personel etc) who may have 'accidentally' seen or come into contact with the 'act' as it was being played out. If there was NOTHING to see, there was nothing for them to see and subsequently possibly question. The risks of a dummy, double, random corpse or live body being seen by unwanted eyes is huge.<br /><br />So, as of now, in the absence of TS or someone else coming up with some new information, which of course I recognise is a huge possibility, I'm going with the 'NOTHING' option.<br />
<br />Great!! Thank you curls.<br />Now the problem is that I think TS is posting from the same hour zone as me WTF??. TIME is really making my head spin like a carousel <br /><br />Can think only of South Africa .......or the North Pole errrr errrr errrr.. fresse/<br />Anyway, I think it's safe to go to sleep because probably TS will only post at 11:29 moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ ....or 1:17....or God knows when smiley_spider..<br /><br />
<br /><br />TS posts on USA Pacific Time. The forum default time is set to UTC time (London UK time) and you can change the time in your settings to what you want. Souza helped me with this ages ago.<br /><br />Hope that helps you Gina. <br /><br />
<br /><br />That's what I thought, that TS posts on USA time. But I don't understand why now, if I already set my time here on the forum , why I see TS' original post on this thread at 11:11 AM... ahhh doesn't matter anyway.
@Curls if you say there doesn't need to be a dummy or corpse then are you saying the whole 'body' was covered up as it was going through UCLA?...and what about the photo they took of MJ at UCLA after the docs stopped working on him, if that was the same day (June 25th 2009) then it couldn't of been 'nothing' unless that was taken another day.<br /><br />
<br />@Curls if you say there doesn't need to be a dummy or corpse then are you saying the whole 'body' was covered up as it was going through UCLA?...and what about the photo they took of MJ at UCLA after the docs stopped working on him, if that was the same day (June 25th 2009) then it couldn't of been 'nothing' unless that was taken another day.<br /><br />
<br /><br />I think all photos, documents etc could have been, and almost certainly were, prepared before or after the event - they are 'props', and there's no need for them to be made 'in real time' so to speak.<br /><br />As for the whole body being covered, I do seem to remember someone, paramedic possibly, or even Murray, saying they covered MJ's face for privacy when transporting him. Haven't a clue where to look for that snippet now - it's just something filed away in my brain somewhere!
Dummy<br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br /><br />Cons:<br />Storage and disposal-- [size=14pt]how do you get rid of it after the fact?[/size] A life-size MJ dummy floating around not locked down after the events of 6/25/09 would be a massive risk.<br />It wouldn't fool medical personnel
<br /><br />Bury it at Forest Lawn :shock:<br /><br />from bec:<br />
Live MJ:<br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br />Allows Van Video to be recorded in real time at end of the process<br />Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening<br /><br />Cons:<br />Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient<br />Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving
<br /><br />May I add at cons Jermaine's slip up about the airport?<br /><br />Oh and maybe we should also consider what if the DEAD MJ went to UCLA.
Oh bec, why you say we colectively agreed paramedics are in?<br />Well I'm not sure about that. If there was a dead body they don't have to be in it, thought it looks like Blunt seems to be in, as he said he recognized MJ on the spot.
<br /><br /><br />Here we are now, at level 7b. :geek:<br /><br />We have only a few days left (until 11-29), but 7b and 7c should fall into place rather quickly—especially since I will be handing much of it out on a silver platter. <br /><br />In 7a, we have debunked the multiple ambulance theories; and have shown that the ambulance videos were both taken at the same time on 6-25-09. Discussion on that subject is now closed on this thread, unless you have read all the previous posts on this thread and have something NEW to contribute; even then, you MUST fulfill ALL THREE of the conditions outlined already (and if you don’t know what they are, it’s because you have not read everything yet). If you go ahead and post without fulfilling these conditions, then expect that your post will be deleted. This is in the interest of keeping on topic; and to avoid cluttering this thread by going over the same ground again and again, merely for the sake of those who are too lazy to read what has already been thoroughly debunked.<br /><br />One of the clearest ways to know when a theory has been irrefutably debunked, is when those who are still trying to defend the debunked theory have no EVIDENCE left to support the theory—and so they resort to any and all tactics OTHER than evidence, such as insinuating bad motives, or claims of secret evidence which can’t be shared, etc (notice that I have ALWAYS used evidence which is readily available on the internet). And these things have already showed up here in 7a, therefore anyone who REALLY wants the truth (and is not merely CLAIMING to want the truth) may know that all the video-taped ambulance events did occur at Carolwood on June 25, 2009.<br /><br />It is important that we understand 7a correctly, because it’s a solid foundation upon which we can build to find the answer for the main question in 7b (what went to the hospital in the ambulance?). For example, since the video events really happened on 6-25-09, we need to start thinking about all the people who were already at the residence (before any LAFD arrived)—were they ALL in on it? If so, why? And if not, what would keep them from finding out (and spilling the beans)?<br /><br />Remember this statement, which I made at the beginning of this thread: “Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax.”<br /><br />For example, do you think that Kai Chase was in on it? If so, why? Would she NEED to be in on it, and what EVIDENCE is there that she is in on it? In fact, have you ever considered whether the CHILDREN were in on it initially (or just informed afterward)? And again, what EVIDENCE do you have on this?<br /><br />Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.<br /><br />Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.<br /><br />Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.<br /><br />To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.<br /><br />As we go through and continue to debunk some of these long-cherished hoax theories (NONE of which have EVER been supported by yours truly): no doubt it will cause some to fear that MJ really died, and there is no hoax (and this could be the reason for some of the resistance displayed in 7a). It is true, as Jesus said, that those who build their faith upon the sand will have their house collapse when a storm comes through (see Matthew 7:24-27).<br /><br />Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories (such as the numerology, with a $999 reward that nobody has even attempted to collect after more than a year) will not be troubled over the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories. Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc).<br /><br />And finally, once the how’s of the hoax become clear, then the why’s of the hoax will become even clearer than before. Understanding the why’s is very important—not only before BAM, but especially after. And if people who come to this forum after the BAM can see that we have a good solid coherent theory on the how’s, then they will be much more likely to believe that we also have the correct understanding of the why’s.<br />
Comments
<br /><br />There are 5 major theories that we started kicking around during 7a discussions:<br /><br />[li]Live MJ[/li]<br />[li]Real Dead Body[/li]<br />[li]Live MJ Double[/li]<br />[li]Dummy[/li]<br />[li]Nothing[/li]<br />
<br /><br />[size=12pt]Live MJ:[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br />Allows Van Video to be recorded in real time at end of the process<br />Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient<br />Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving<br /><br /><br /><br />[size=12pt]Live MJ Double:[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br />Allows Van Video to be recorded in real time at end of the process<br />Allows the real MJ to "escape" undetected long before the events of Day Zero begin<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient<br />Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving<br />Risk of mistakes; MJ hands the reins of this project, along with the responsibility of a live performance/no do-overs to someone else<br />Additional person required to be in on it<br /><br /><br /><br />[size=12pt]Real Dead Body[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />Allows UCLA docs and Paramedics and Coroner to tell the truth regarding responsiveness/clinical death<br />Keeps up appearances to unauthorized personnel, it really IS a corpse<br />Allows legal documents to be "less" fake-- someone really DID die<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />UCLA Docs and Coroner would still be participating in deception,[size=8pt] bcuz the body could not be ID'ed as MJ-- accepted truth, statistical impossibility: an MJ double with vitiligo and some matching scars died on 6/25/09, nor would doctors or the coroner be fooled by a preserved (/or frozen) corpse.[/size]<br />Would be unrecognizable as MJ prompting suspicion from unauthorized personnel who happen to see the body<br />Possible legality issues upon reveal, desecration of a corpse, tampering with a corpse, abuse of a corpse, failure to report a death<br />Morality issues in public relations upon reveal<br />Legal documents are still fake, they ID the corpse as MJosephJ<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />[size=12pt]Dummy[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />Storage and disposal-- [size=8pt]how do you get rid of it after the fact? A life-size MJ dummy floating around not locked down after the events of 6/25/09 would be a massive risk.[/size]<br />It wouldn't fool medical personnel<br /><br /><br />[size=12pt]Nothing[/size]<br /><br /><br />Pros:<br />??<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Cons:<br />If anyone sees an empty ambulance that isn't supposed to see an empty ambulance (at either end), immediate strong suspicion might be raised and considering MJs typical appearances in the news, could cast doubt over the entire affair right off the bat.<br /><br /><br /><br />Please feel free to add to these categories as I certainly didn't compile the full list for each. I probably missed more then several points. It might help narrow things down.<br /><br />I came in thinking it was probably nothing that went to UCLA on 6/25/09 but now I'm back to the Live MJ theory. There are certain key people, already collectively accepted to be in on it (bodyguards, Paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA, coroner) that would ensure MJ's safe passage that day. The Pros of MJ doing it himself on that list are too many and too important to ignore (major benefits), especially compared with the other main options we have presented."For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."