<br />@Ginafelicia =: <br />I know it's really hard to figure out how MJ faked his death. We are all coming up with theories, but not all of the are correct. Untill now we didn't get any clue yet. So [size=14pt]TS.......Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllppppppppppppp[/size]<br />
<br />so if all theories fail and none are correct then, it IS the time to ask us " did MJ really fake his death?" <br /><br />
<br /><br />[size=10pt]You know Mimi,I had thought that many times also.What if Michael didn't fake his death,and all was a BIG BIG ILLUSION???<br />Sometimes I ask myself:Why Michael had to do this,when he was happy with is children and family?? He finally had peace,and 2005 trial was already forgotten.He was already a father and had everything a human wants,money,fame and success.<br />Why COME BACK to TOUR again,when himself already admitted that it doesen't LIKE to tour.Why come back to REEASERT his KING OF POP "title",and then just simply "DIE" :shock: ??? Why Michael had to COME BACK to practically KILL the " KING OF POP" ,this is a good question :shock:????[/size]<br />
<br /><br />Because MJ is NOT just " the king of pop" or a great ( ok best ) enterteiner in the world) he is MUCH MORE than that . and if you refuse or are afraid to accept "evidence", i'm sorry cuz maybe it's time to really understand who mj really is. when he come back how do you think he would return? i'm sure , he won't return as Michael Jackson the king of pop. he won't do concert again, neither films of stuff like that.<br />remember the trailer of this is it . because the WHY of this, is explained and is in it !<br />" the event of a life". what the hell they are talking about? do you really think it is just all about a movie, or reeasert his " title" and after that? ok, he will change the world and will proove that medias justice etc.. are corrupted by prejudice . ok, on that point we HAVE the why is there still a hoax . but after that? when he returns showing himself to the world and prooving he is not dead, what will he do ? ya know?so, it is not. if it was just about that, i'm SURE michael wouldn't come back because he wants to keep his "LEGEND " alive . and I'm sorry but thinking about a michael jackson being 70 years old and made his fan sad and stuff doesn't match at all!! So trust me if he was really alive in a physical body and blood he would NOT come back (and remember he is peter pan in all minds you see?) . So you have to start thinking WAYYYYYY outside the box, because i feel the truth is here, not there . but this is just what i mean <br /><br />
Mimi, I responded to your "MJ is archangel Michael" post here: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20454.msg374991#msg374991<br /><br />You are actually saying that Michael is Jesus, thus divine. If you think so, please show me with supporting scriptures that God intended to send his Son back to earth a second time in a human form. Not here, but in the thread I linked to above please.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Guys, this is off topic. We shouldn't start all over again and disscuss whether he is dead or alive or why he faked his death or how he will return. I think all newbies should go an read what we have discussed months ago. Let's just stick to the topic please............................. So back to the corpse!!!<br />
<br />TS puts such a strong emphasis on very FEW people in on the hoax below, even some of the Jackson family, which I think reflects on who or what went in the ambulance on the 25th.<br />Remember the dummies can be so very realistic nowadays, perhaps cost millions, but that's okay. Watch at :30. <br /><br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74HR-Za7z4<br /><br /><br />I think the medic who intubated it would have to be in on the hoax, but perhaps not the others. I think only Alverez needs to be in from the body guards. Perhaps only Jermaine and LaToya are in for the family, not Katherine or Joe or the rest. I've said before that Prince and Paris were probably told the day before or so, and much later they told Blanket. <br /><br />
6. Katherine and RandySpeaking of the murder theory: many people have had their faith shaken lately—especially with Katherine crying in the Oprah interview, as well as some tweets from Randy. But again, if people would take the Elvis connection seriously: they would understand a lot more, and it would be much easier to “keep the faith”.If you read the book by Elvis/Jesse (and Dr. Hinton), The Truth About Elvis Aron Presley In His Own Words (which I will abbreviate as TTAEAP): you will find repeated similar statements, such as this one—which is right up front in the introduction. “So many people have written or spoke about my death as a hoax. It was not a hoax! ... Elvis Presley did die that day.” The physical body lived on, yes; but the performer, the King of Rock, ceased to exist on 8-16-1977.With MJ: his enemies really did kill the reputation, the image, the performer, the King of Pop—Michael Joseph Jackson. Therefore, the statements and emotions of the family are real—even though it is metaphorical murder, and not literal. Even the Bible uses death and murder in a metaphorical sense: “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer ...” (1 John 3:15; see Luke 9:60; etc).Katherine was crying on the Oprah interview; and it was real emotions and real tears, not just acting. She also said on that same interview, in the context of molestation charges and not the context of 6-25-2009: “I can’t talk about anything without crying ...” {4:31, [color=rgb(64, 0, 64)]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLy_-sCG76o[/color]}.Also her biggest grief on June 25 was not when Murray told her that MJ was “gone” (to the airport). Instead, her major grief was when she had to take the children home with her; because at that point, MJ really was “gone”—and the children would not then be living with him or seeing him regularly {10:21, [color=rgb(64, 0, 64)]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLy_-sCG76o[/color]}.But if any still have difficulty with the emotions and statements of Katherine and/or Randy, you might want to consider that maybe some of the family members are not in on the hoax. I’m not saying that this is the actual case; but if it’s easier for you, this is yet another example where the Elvis connection could help.“One fact that most people would think is that my Daddy [Vernon] must have known, well he didn’t. We were planning on telling him when he passed away without ever knowing.” (TTAEAP 28). “My own Daddy bless his soul never knew the truth. Little Lisa was told months later and explained to her she would not see me much. ... I feel bad my Daddy wasn’t allowed to know but it just couldn’t be done.” (TTAEAP 32,33). “Also let me tell you that my Daddy did not know of this hoax if they want to call it that. If he had not died suddenly, we would have told him. ... To this day I feel terrible about this. But he had to be eliminated from the beginning. He was to be told after 3 years but as you know he passed 6 months too early.” (TTAEAP 56).- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br /><br /><br />7. Bahrain And MichaelOne of the redirects included this statement: “It’s quite reasonable to think that one of the places MJ’s been hiding out in is Bahrain.” {[color=rgb(64, 0, 64)]http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15880#p268640[/color]}. Several questioned why I would redirect to this, and put MJ at risk.First, let me repeat what I have said before: just because I redirect to something, it does not mean that I agree with every single word on the comment or webpage that is redirected; instead, look for the main points being said, not necessarily every detail. In this case, however, I did make sure to redirect to a post which had a very important detail in it: “ONE of the places MJ’s been hiding”.Second, Bahrain could be a decoy. Third, whether or not it’s a decoy: TS is certainly not the only one who has given the Bahrain clue. It was also on the Jackson Reality Show, on the recent Oprah interview, and on TMZ. “Bahrain Company Didn’t Get Memo On MJ’s Death” {[color=rgb(64, 0, 64)]http://http://www.tmz.com/2010/11/19/michael-jackson-estate-creditors-claim-estate-bahrain-company-loan/[/color]}. As many noticed, this title had nothing to do with the article; the title was a clue that Bahrain didn’t know about MJ’s death, because they did know that he is not dead!Elvis/Jesse has also listed several of his past hiding places—including Apopka, Florida; Tenino, Washington; and Hawaii, which is a paradise island (TTAEAP 28,38,40,48). Many rumors have circulated for years about Elvis living on some “paradise island”; well, he actually did! And of course, Bahrain is also a paradise island.
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<br />The dummy theory is a very reasonable possibility (yes, am speculating on both sides of the fence here). Thanks for the informative video, MJonmind:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74HR-Za7z4 (at 00:30-03:50 in particular, and there is also an interesting shot from 10:30-10:35). <br /><br />(On another note, also agree with the idea in No. 6 above that not all of the family has been or is in on the hoax and, along with others, posted about it here: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=5167.msg347372#msg347372. The only question is, regarding Katherine and Joe not being in the know, how effective would Prince and Paris be at keeping a tidbit like that from their grandparents indefinitely? Still inclined to believe that Katherine and Joe may have found out about the hoax in the interim period between June 25, 2009, and the Memorial the following July.) <br />
A dummy to trick a paramedic, a doctor or a coroner?, my question is to fool who by that apart from the photo of the ambulance and the photo that we saw in the trial, that other person saw the body?<br />A dummy would have had good results in a Memorial to the open coffin,..... as well as Elvis
I seriously don't know who they needed a dummy FOR. The medics knew they couldn't revive a dummy, so why have one there. The hosp docs knew they couldn't revive a dummy so why have one there? If it's for the paps, with 10 people (just a number) in that ambo, and surrounding the stretcher, who'd see WHAT was on it? So, why a dummy? WHY a dummy?? Why anything, if no one ever saw it? <br />But, if I'm left with choices of dummy or corpse I'll pick dummy, but I think nothing was there. Illusion.<br />
This is why knowing the WHY of the hoax (7c) is important in order to understand the hows (7a and 7b) because depending on the WHY, the hows would be different (i.e. the 'hows' are/were put into place to fulfill the 'why').<br /><br />IF the WHY did NOT involve fooling anyone who supposedly saw the 'body' at either Carolwood or UCLA...then there is no NEED for anything to be used at all because they were 'in on it' (i.e. a dummy or corpse wasn't needed to fool them...so why go through the trouble?).<br /><br />IF the WHY involved having to 'fool' someone or certain people either at Carolwood or at UCLA or both...people that actually had to SEE a 'body' or something in order to be fooled into thinking it was really MJ...then that would necessitate a NEED to have 'something' as a stand-in (or lay-down lol) in Mike's place (if Mike didn't actually play the part himself).<br /><br />TS said he would rule out a living MJ playing the part (and gave his reasons for it), as well as a living double playing the part (still waiting for TS to post about that). So, the only possible options left IF, in fact, anyone NEEDED to be fooled are: 1) a dummy that looks like MJ, or 2) a corpse (but not just any corpse, it would HAVE to be one that looked like MJ because that would be the whole purpose...to fool whoever into thinking it's really MJ).<br /><br />But the question remains: WHO, at Carolwood or UCLA who supposedly saw the 'body', needed to be fooled and WHY? AND, if that's the case, would a dummy or a corpse have fooled them?<br /><br />I'm having a hard time believing that real paramedics and real doctors and real coroners would or could be fooled into thinking they were working on a real person when, in actuality, they were working on a dummy. So, again, IF a dummy was used, it was because it was NEEDED in order to fool someone at Carolwood, not UCLA. But WHO and why? The only possible 'WHO's are Murray, the kids, Amir, Mohammad and Alvarez since they are the ONLY ones who supposedly saw a 'body'. <br /><br />IF a real body was used, it (again) would've been because there was a NEED to fool people into thinking it was really MJ. A hospice patient may have fooled everyone at Carolwood and perhaps even UCLA...I can agree with that. I guess I'm somewhere between this theory and the theory of nothing at all being used....but leaning more towards 'nothing' at all because I can't figure out WHO would need to be fooled AND who would be fooled...and why there was a need to fool them. A real body, IMO, would ONLY be needed in order to fool real paramedics and real doctors. With the exception of Murray and Alvarez, the only ones who may have needed to be fooled at Carolwood would be Amir or Mohommad...and I can't see the NEED to have a real corpse just to fool either of them since neither testified to 'handling' the body or being around long enough to 'study' it---in that case, a dummy would make more sense to me. I believe that Murray and Alvarez HAD to be in on it and I can't see how MJ could've pulled this all off without the help of at least some doctors at UCLA (Dr. Cooper and Dr. Nguyen). <br /><br />So with the 'real corpse' theory, I'm still stuck with WHO was it meant to fool and why? Just by process of elimination, we can get down to only a very 'few' of the ones that supposedly saw the 'body' who could've possibly had to be fooled by it. IMO, it would be SO much easier and simpler to bring those very 'few' (like Senneff and Blount) into the 'hoax' and eliminate the need to fool anyone...rather than having to go to the trouble of having a real corpse that looks like MJ (enough so to fool people) die on June 25th. <br /><br />But maybe there was a scenario going on that meant having a real MJ-looking-corpse on June 25th wasn't a lot of trouble (i.e. a hospice patient who had plastic surgery to look like MJ and who was sick and being cared for by Mike/Murray and who agreed to have his 'dead body' used on June 25th in order to make MJ's hoax plans more realistic to whoever needed to be fooled). In order to 'prove' that, though, IMO a LOT more dots need to be connected than have been so far. Nor am I sure there are enough 'dots' currently available to prove this scenario.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.<br /><br />
Dummy....Corpse...Live MJ.....<br /><br /><br />remind me again why we're trying to figure this out without any definitive proof for either theory?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
<br />This is why knowing the WHY of the hoax (7c) is important in order to understand the hows (7a and 7b) because depending on the WHY, the hows would be different (i.e. the 'hows' are/were put into place to fulfill the 'why').<br /><br />IF the WHY did NOT involve fooling anyone who supposedly saw the 'body' at either Carolwood or UCLA...then there is no NEED for anything to be used at all because they were 'in on it' (i.e. a dummy or corpse wasn't needed to fool them...so why go through the trouble?).<br /><br />IF the WHY involved having to 'fool' someone or certain people either at Carolwood or at UCLA or both...people that actually had to SEE a 'body' or something in order to be fooled into thinking it was really MJ...then that would necessitate a NEED to have 'something' as a stand-in (or lay-down lol) in Mike's place (if Mike didn't actually play the part himself).<br /><br />TS said he would rule out a living MJ playing the part (and gave his reasons for it), as well as a living double playing the part (still waiting for TS to post about that). So, the only possible options left IF, in fact, anyone NEEDED to be fooled are: 1) a dummy that looks like MJ, or 2) a corpse (but not just any corpse, it would HAVE to be one that looked like MJ because that would be the whole purpose...to fool whoever into thinking it's really MJ).<br /><br />But the question remains: WHO, at Carolwood or UCLA who supposedly saw the 'body', needed to be fooled and WHY? AND, if that's the case, would a dummy or a corpse have fooled them?<br /><br />I'm having a hard time believing that real paramedics and real doctors and real coroners would or could be fooled into thinking they were working on a real person when, in actuality, they were working on a dummy. So, again, IF a dummy was used, it was because it was NEEDED in order to fool someone at Carolwood, not UCLA. But WHO and why? The only possible 'WHO's are Murray, the kids, Amir, Mohammad and Alvarez since they are the ONLY ones who supposedly saw a 'body'. <br /><br />IF a real body was used, it (again) would've been because there was a NEED to fool people into thinking it was really MJ. A hospice patient may have fooled everyone at Carolwood and perhaps even UCLA...I can agree with that. I guess I'm somewhere between this theory and the theory of nothing at all being used....but leaning more towards 'nothing' at all because I can't figure out WHO would need to be fooled AND who would be fooled...and why there was a need to fool them. A real body, IMO, would ONLY be needed in order to fool real paramedics and real doctors. With the exception of Murray and Alvarez, the only ones who may have needed to be fooled at Carolwood would be Amir or Mohommad...and I can't see the NEED to have a real corpse just to fool either of them since neither testified to 'handling' the body or being around long enough to 'study' it---in that case, a dummy would make more sense to me. I believe that Murray and Alvarez HAD to be in on it and I can't see how MJ could've pulled this all off without the help of at least some doctors at UCLA (Dr. Cooper and Dr. Nguyen). <br /><br />So with the 'real corpse' theory, I'm still stuck with WHO was it meant to fool and why? Just by process of elimination, we can get down to only a very 'few' of the ones that supposedly saw the 'body' who could've possibly had to be fooled by it. IMO, it would be SO much easier and simpler to bring those very 'few' (like Senneff and Blount) into the 'hoax' and eliminate the need to fool anyone...rather than having to go to the trouble of having a real corpse that looks like MJ (enough so to fool people) die on June 25th. <br /><br />But maybe there was a scenario going on that meant having a real MJ-looking-corpse on June 25th wasn't a lot of trouble (i.e. a hospice patient who had plastic surgery to look like MJ and who was sick and being cared for by Mike/Murray and who agreed to have his 'dead body' used on June 25th in order to make MJ's hoax plans more realistic to whoever needed to be fooled). In order to 'prove' that, though, IMO a LOT more dots need to be connected than have been so far. Nor am I sure there are enough 'dots' currently available to prove this scenario.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.<br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />Great summation! I totally get all you are saying and agree on each point. It's what I've been trying to say for a few pages. I like your last paragraph also, about the hospice patient...which could've been a double, as I've said quite often...a sickly one dying that they didn't recognize right away...but, that's just a theory. <br />My betting is it wasn't that, but Michael was known to help dying people so I wouldn't put it past him to help someone who's life was to imitate him. But, it goes to, how'd he happen to die on the very day that made the pepsi accident work out?<br />I stick with nothing used and prob. a movie/sting.<br />Great post.
This sentence from TS - "In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher" - makes me think that live MJ is on the stretcher, he just didn't sit up. In that sentence from TS, it almost implies that MJ was on the stretcher. And no need for a dummy or corpse and all the complications that would come with. The person's ear and hair that many assumed was MJ sitting up seems to be a happy coincidence for us hoaxers.
<br />This sentence from TS - "In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher" - makes me think that live MJ is on the stretcher, he just didn't sit up. In that sentence from TS, it almost implies that MJ was on the stretcher. And no need for a dummy or corpse and all the complications that would come with. The person's ear and hair that many assumed was MJ sitting up seems to be a happy coincidence for us hoaxers. <br />
<br /><br />Or TS could simply be referring to Evenstad's video as having been "altered" and how it was done. If the ambo pic is fake, why would this video clip be real? The eyes see what they want to see, not necessarily what's there. <br /><br />Doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher in my opinion. :?<br /><br />Security could have just as easily held up their jackets to make people think something is on the stretcher when there wasn't.
<br />This sentence from TS - "In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher" - makes me think that live MJ is on the stretcher, he just didn't sit up. In that sentence from TS, it almost implies that MJ was on the stretcher. And no need for a dummy or corpse and all the complications that would come with. The person's ear and hair that many assumed was MJ sitting up seems to be a happy coincidence for us hoaxers. <br />
<br /><br />Or TS could simply be referring to Evenstad's video as having been "altered" and how it was done. If the ambo pic is fake, why would this video clip be real? The eyes see what they want to see, not necessarily what's there. <br /><br />Doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher in my opinion. :?<br /><br />Security could have just as easily held up their jackets to make people think something is on the stretcher when there wasn't. <br />
<br /><br />No it doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher but TS is always careful with wording and it doesn't take him off the stretcher either.
Hmmm..... it's so difficult to figure it out this time.... because it's either a dummy or a corpse!!!! Is there any other option????? MJ himself maybe.... hmmmmm,...... it's really difficult. Hope TS helps us soon!!!!
<br />This sentence from TS - "In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher" - makes me think that live MJ is on the stretcher, he just didn't sit up. In that sentence from TS, it almost implies that MJ was on the stretcher. And no need for a dummy or corpse and all the complications that would come with. The person's ear and hair that many assumed was MJ sitting up seems to be a happy coincidence for us hoaxers. <br />
<br /><br />Or TS could simply be referring to Evenstad's video as having been "altered" and how it was done. If the ambo pic is fake, why would this video clip be real? The eyes see what they want to see, not necessarily what's there. <br /><br />Doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher in my opinion. :?<br /><br />Security could have just as easily held up their jackets to make people think something is on the stretcher when there wasn't. <br />
<br /><br />No it doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher but TS is always careful with wording and it doesn't take him off the stretcher either.<br />
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on 1322210051:
<br /><br />Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. [size=12pt]For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.[/size]<br /><br />[size=12pt]Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. [/size] Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.<br /><br />Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.<br /><br />[size=12pt]To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); [/size] then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.<br /><br />As we go through and continue to debunk some of these long-cherished hoax theories (NONE of which have EVER been supported by yours truly): no doubt it will cause some to fear that MJ really died, and there is no hoax (and this could be the reason for some of the resistance displayed in 7a). It is true, as Jesus said, that those who build their faith upon the sand will have their house collapse when a storm comes through (see Matthew 7:24-27).<br /><br />Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories (such as the numerology, with a $999 reward that nobody has even attempted to collect after more than a year) will not be troubled over the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories. Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc).<br /><br />And finally, once the how’s of the hoax become clear, then the why’s of the hoax will become even clearer than before. Understanding the why’s is very important—not only before BAM, but especially after. And if people who come to this forum after the BAM can see that we have a good solid coherent theory on the how’s, then they will be much more likely to believe that we also have the correct understanding of the why’s.<br /><br />
<br /><br /> Am I reading it wrong???? suspicious//
TS said.....<br />"Fourth, the stretcher went into UCLA feet first. If MJ sat up on the stretcher, he would have to be riding it backwards! That is possible, of course, especially if he was planning to sit up; therefore, I consider this only a minor point. Please carefully compare these pictures; the second picture (click the link) is a stretcher from the LAFD, just like the one that went into ULCA. You should be able to see three or four things which show that the stretcher went into UCLA feet first {http://tinyurl.com/7h7l9zy}."<br /><br />It is very easy to see that the feet went first into UCLA. LAFD loads patients with the wheels first...the head is on the end with the wheels. You can see the wheels on the end of the stretcher...they came out last from the ambulance. Hence the feet went first, because they are not at the wheel end of the stretcher. <br /><br />TS said:<br /><br />"Fifth, there is one person standing in the doorway, who does not move with the stretcher (Heron). This means that unless the mystery face is that of someone walking with the stretcher on the far side of it, then EVERYONE walking with the stretcher is towards the camera (on the left side and head of it). This of course is possible, but it seems more reasonable that at least one person would be walking the stretcher on the far side (on the right side or foot of it)."<br /><br />I see mustache dude staring out at the camera. However, TS, I don't quite understand your comment of "EVERYONE walking with the stretcher is towards the camera". How does mustache dude prove that? We can plainly see the dark-haired paramedic walking with the stretcher on the back far corner......like you said it would be more reasonable to see. I guess I don't understand why you made this comment.....why bother? I thought mustache dude was hospital security anyways...just there to stand guard so nobody but the correct people got in. Is he more significant than that? The mystery face seems like a backwards walking paramedic, though I don't know if that's the way they do things.....seems rather odd. But, then again so is a backing out ambulance. <br /><br /> I am still not 100% convinced that MJ did not go to UCLA in some vehicle....ambulance or otherwise. However, all this speculation on who or what went to UCLA makes me wonder what the true purpose of it all is. I will say, Ben's video is making it more clear to me that staging was highly intricate. The timing had to be perfect.......remember "time dots". This is a picture puzzle of huge proportions. It's all in front of our eyes, that I am sure of. <br /><br />Alfred Hitchcock's photocrime essay in Look magazine June 15, 1943, reminds me of this hoax:<br /><br />Hitchcock also wrote a mystery story for Look magazine in 1943, "The Murder of Monty Woolley". This was a sequence of captioned photographs inviting the reader to inspect the pictures for clues to the murderer's identity; Hitchcock cast the performers as themselves; such as Woolley, Doris Merrick and make up man Guy Pearce, whom Hitchcock identified, in the last photo, as the murderer. The article was reprinted in Games Magazine in November/December 1980.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Hitchcock<br /><br /><br />A long time ago I did a thread comparing this hoax to great works of fiction...Poe, Shakespeare etc....I still think that's a valid thought. However, if ever there was a new vein in the Hollywood crime drama....a nod to Hitchcock would have to be in place. This all screams Hitchcock to me......I can't believe I didn't see it earlier. I love Hitchcock and know him fairly well.......I need a smilely for hitting my head against the wall! I think there is much we do not know.....surely there were threats against Michael and his family....probably for a long time, sad to say. Perhaps, those threats became too much. Or Hollywood Doctors became too much for Michael to take...seeing his dear friends die. The why's are many...we will know soon enough. The how's are being lifted and reveled slowly....I wish I could contribute more on that side.<br /><br />@BeTheChange........you are absolutely rockin' the posts lately...you all are, however, BTC......amazing : ) Love to you!!!!<br /><br />Love to all......and many blessings always<br /><br />
No one in Carolwood or UCLA or in the coroner would need to be deceived ... they are in the hoax! <br /><br />Who would need to be fooled would be onlookers that could arise in the course. If despite all the care, if these people saw an empty stretcher would be very complicated. Don't let's forget the videos the helicopter. All remember someone visibly raising , so why that video was recorded from the helicopter?<br />If anyone was there, alive ... could be MJ or a double instead.<br /><br />The theory of a dummy also makes sense. Let's see ....
<br />Hi all. been away for a few days attending to family situation. just read last 5 pages. brilliant reading - (except the resurrection / assention stuff - glad that has been shown the door, IMO only)<br /><br />
on 1322259767:
<br />So until someone can provide a plausible necessarity of using a corpse, I think it's either a dummy or nothing at all, and a dummy would make sense to create a scenario, make a picture in the hospital and at the coroner, have it transported to FL, where they would open the coffin after 10 weeks, finding the corpse in perfect state. So I think a dummy is the best scenario for me now: everything the same as when it would have been MJ, the only thing would be that the MJ wouldn't be real, like many other things in this whole saga. Very big pro for the use of a dummy is that you can have it look IDENTICAL to MJ. That means that anyone not handeling the body wouldn't have to have a clue that it was fake.<br />
<br /><br />dont believe the dead body theory. i dont feel it is nessecary and a dummy can 'fool' as many people as a corpse, so why use a corpse, complicate things further and delve into unethical territory when a latex dummy can do the same thing.... my personal view is that a dummy has been used. also just wanted to note that souza's post above especially the text in red. when i read it instantly reminded me of latoyas statements. if a dummy was used as souza described, perfect replica of MJ, then it actually validates her statements making them not 'mere' stories. she described lifting and bending the MJ corpse, dressing him, and that he looked beautiful - weeks after date of death. what she says actually all applies if she was talking of a MJ identical dummy, which would (in her eyes and in her defence to the media / post bam) make her statements true and therefore eligable to put into her book.<br /><br />anyways, just wanted to say that i am reading it all. loving it all and though i need to still gather 3 reasons why dummy would be used if i present this theory to TS - feel that this is the theory i am sticking with. i have all along. (check my previous posts ::P)<br /><br />in addition to this comment and my point of view or theory abt what went into the ambo. i also just want to highlight the amazing work that maddame tussauds has done of michael over the years...<br /><br /><br /><br />the possibilities are endless....<br /><br />rubber, latex, wax, polysubstances, etc, etc<br /><br />wont post the following picture as some might find it creepy, but will post the link. http://www.momlogic.com/images/fake-baby-gallery-2.jpg its a pic of life like baby - except is just a latex dummy. however you would never know the difference had this picture not been connected to a website that makes 'replica' babies (still creepy, i know) dummys these days are amazing. <br /><br />here is a link to a 16 second video of a military training dummy. it breathes. it blinks. its damn amazing!<br /> /><br />imagine the possibilities with mj? the money he has. the contacts he has. the surgeons he knows. the hollywood prop designers he would be able to use. 25 years exp with make up, prosthetics, costume.<br /><br />a dummy is 'very' MJ, and agian, i dont have my three reasons why yet, i am working on an additonal post with more pointed reasons for choosing dummy theory - but lets all face it, it is very MJ.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />[size=14pt]EDIT: Link for military training dummy [/size]<br />
<br /><br />The use of a dummy could also account for the "weight" discrepancy on the AR ....136lbs (Actual dummy weight from the Coroner), which is all fake anyway, but loosely based on MJ's specs. <br /><br />While a dummy could be designed to look like MJ, the weight factor may not have been controllable factor to a certain degree given the materials used to create it.<br /><br />The "live double" or corpse theory has to many uncontrollable variables in my opinion.<br /><br />I agree, this seems the most plausible in my opinion, although I don't know how this would change the perception of the hoax. :?<br /><br /><br />*Side note, Kai Chase having seen a glimpse of this dummy might have questioned it (therefore told after the fact of the hoax). She smiles like she has a secret--->perhaps mentally recalling the image of the "dummy" carried out on the stretcher that day. ::P<br /><br />Also, it could explain the difference in testimony of Senneff and Blount (someone "glancing" at it might recognize Michael's resemblance immediately, whereas someone else might not)
<br />This sentence from TS - "In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher" - makes me think that live MJ is on the stretcher, he just didn't sit up. In that sentence from TS, it almost implies that MJ was on the stretcher. And no need for a dummy or corpse and all the complications that would come with. The person's ear and hair that many assumed was MJ sitting up seems to be a happy coincidence for us hoaxers. <br />
<br /><br />Or TS could simply be referring to Evenstad's video as having been "altered" and how it was done. If the ambo pic is fake, why would this video clip be real? The eyes see what they want to see, not necessarily what's there. <br /><br />Doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher in my opinion. :?<br /><br />Security could have just as easily held up their jackets to make people think something is on the stretcher when there wasn't. <br />
<br /><br />No it doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher but TS is always careful with wording and it doesn't take him off the stretcher either.<br />
<br /><br /><br /><br />
on 1322210051:
<br /><br />Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. [size=12pt]For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.[/size]<br /><br />[size=12pt]Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. [/size] Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.<br /><br />Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.<br /><br />[size=12pt]To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); [/size] then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.<br /><br />As we go through and continue to debunk some of these long-cherished hoax theories (NONE of which have EVER been supported by yours truly): no doubt it will cause some to fear that MJ really died, and there is no hoax (and this could be the reason for some of the resistance displayed in 7a). It is true, as Jesus said, that those who build their faith upon the sand will have their house collapse when a storm comes through (see Matthew 7:24-27).<br /><br />Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories (such as the numerology, with a $999 reward that nobody has even attempted to collect after more than a year) will not be troubled over the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories. Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc).<br /><br />And finally, once the how’s of the hoax become clear, then the why’s of the hoax will become even clearer than before. Understanding the why’s is very important—not only before BAM, but especially after. And if people who come to this forum after the BAM can see that we have a good solid coherent theory on the how’s, then they will be much more likely to believe that we also have the correct understanding of the why’s.<br /><br />
<br /><br /> Am I reading it wrong???? suspicious//<br />
<br /><br />No Snoopy you're not reading TS's post wrong, lol. <br /><br />"For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.<br /><br />Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax."<br /><br /><br />By including the "sitting up in the stretcher" part, TS can accurately say that "it is not correct" (since he de-bunked that bit) while also saying it "is correct in a general sense", whether he's referring to the other sequence of events or MJ's love to be in the middle of the action is up to interpretation. The thing is, the success of the events that day could have been bungled no matter what was in the ambulance - a dummy/corpse/ or LIVE MJ could've been exposed - everything is a risk no matter how you look at it. And the t.o.d. still technically places Michael as alive when he arrived at the hospital, in the event he was seen moving or something. He can still "die" a little later on, and not be considered DOA.<br /><br />Also, - "The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van." - he didn't do it merely so that he could have some fun...which could mean live MJ was there but not JUST for fun. I have not seen 2-3 solid facts showing live MJ wasn't there that day - the reasons that have been presented are more based on opinion than something that would solidly de-bunk that scenario. And I myself have not seen evidence showing Michael somewhere else that day, the airport thing is a possibility but not enough for me to be clearly convinced of it. If I'm taking this all the wrong way then I apologize in advance.
<br />Dummy....Corpse...Live MJ.....<br /><br /><br />remind me again why we're trying to figure this out without any definitive proof for either theory?<br /><br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />[size=10pt]Snoopy71 I still don't understand either WHAT'S UP with all these dummies and Corpses :? afraid/ ,lol. Is this Hoax a REAL THRILLER or what :? ??? I don't know much about medicine and AUTOPSY ,but how can you make a real autopsy on a dummy ,lol geek/ !!! OMG and they even took out THE BRAIN out afraid/ ,and then put it back in the dummy head,OMG only thinking at that it makes me sick :?!!!! So even if they used a DEAD CORPSE I can't IMAGINE either them doing that,sorry,because it would be very disperectful for the CORPSE :? !!! <br />Wait !!!! I have a question!!! Why they even needed Michael's BRAIN in the first place????? ODD,very odd :?!!! Look what some news wrote about Michael's brain:<br />[/size]<br /><br />http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/07/05/michael-jackson-to-be-buried-without-his-brain-115875-21495043/<br />Michael Jackson will be buried this week– without his brain. As his family tries to finalise details for the King of Pop’s funeral on Tuesday they have been told it will be held back for tests.<br /><br />They faced the grim choice of waiting up to three weeks for Jackson’s brain to be returned to them or go ahead and bury him without it – which they have decided to do.<br /><br /> Los Angeles Coroner’s spokesman Craig Harvey confirmed that neuropathology tests will be carried out to see if it holds any clues to the exact cause of his death.<br /><br />But the examination cannot begin until at least two weeks after the death when the brain has hardened sufficiently to slice it open.<br /><br />Jackson died from a cardiac arrest at his Beverly Hills mansion on June 25 after a suspected overdose of painkillers.<br /><br />Sources at the coroner’s office revealed that his brain was removed before his body was released to relatives the next day.<br /><br />A forensic neuropathologist will test Jackson’s brain for, among other things, past drug use and whether he has suffered overdoses in the past.<br /><br />The brain can also show any past abuse of alcohol or if the deceased had suffered from any one of a number of diseases. The source said that removing the brain is the “only way to carry out the tests”.<br /><br />“The tissue has to be examined,” he said. “I can’t tell you how long that is going to take.”<br /><br />One expert explained that the Jackson family could decide to wait and bury the brain with the rest of the body. But it is far more common for the lab to burn the remains once they’ve been examined or for them to be placed into the grave at a later date.<br /><br />“It’s up to the family. They can bury him and then bury the brain later on,” said Dr Cyril Wecht, a former coroner and one of America’s foremost forensic pathologists.<br /><br />Advertisement - article continues below »<br />Click here to find out more!<br /><br />But he added: “It’s rare for the body to be held back for two weeks or more.”<br /><br />Jackson’s body was handed over to his family soon after the three-hour autopsy was completed and the Jacksons went on to order a second forensic examination.<br /><br />But Dr Wecht said: “The brain cannot be properly examined at the time of the autopsy. You cannot test it while it is in the body. So it is cut off at the spinal cord and removed.”<br /><br />The brain would usually be placed in a plastic bucket, suspended in formaldehyde fluid, and put in a refridgerator at 4C to preserve it.<br /><br />Dr Wecht went on: “People don’t realise how soft the brain is. To do the type of detailed examination required you need to have the brain much harder – and for that you have to wait for at least 10 days to two weeks.”<br /><br />Dr Wecht, who was not involved in the Jackson autopsies, has reviewed and been consulted on many high-profile deaths, including John F. Kennedy, Elvis Presley and Anna Nicole Smith. afraid/ geek/ <br /><br />“In Los Angeles they have a neuropathologist they work with, and he will be looking at the brain,” he said.<br /><br />It is cut into sections afraid/ afraid/ :? of less than half-an-inch thick and reviewed first by the naked eye and then through a microscopic. “That all takes 17 to 18 days,” Dr Wecht added in an exclusive interview.<br /><br />Dr Wecht, who chronicles his career dissecting more than 16,000 bodies afraid/ afraid/ :? in his best- selling memoir A Question Of Murder, added: “In the 47 years I have been doing this I reckon only about one per cent of families say they want the brain back so they can bury it. In most cases it is incinerated.”<br /><br />The autopsy is expected to show that the 50-year-old singer had drugs in his system when he died :roll: .<br /><br />At various times, he is said to have been taking Demerol and Oxycontin for pain from old back and leg injuries and Diprivan, a hospital anaesthetic, to help him sleep.<br /><br />[size=12pt]- MICHAEL Jackson starred as the Scarecrow in The Wiz, the 1978 musical version of The Wizard of Oz – playing the character without a brain opposite Diana Ross as Dorothy geek/ .[/size]
<br />[size=9pt][/size]<br />[size=9pt]I obviously couldn't answer his question but he got me thinking with who's authority were the employees sent home. Who's call is this?[/size]<br />
[size=9pt]I thought from the beginning it was Tohme.[/size]<br />[size=9pt]Australian MJ BeLIEver[/size]<br />[size=9pt][/size]
[size=9pt]dont believe the dead body theory. i dont feel it is nessecary and a dummy can 'fool' as many people as a corpse, so why use a corpse, complicate things further and delve into unethical territory when a latex dummy can do the same thing.... my personal view is that a dummy has been used. also just wanted to note that souza's post above especially the text in red. when i read it instantly reminded me of latoyas statements. if a dummy was used as souza described, perfect replica of MJ, then it actually validates her statements making them not 'mere' stories. she described lifting and bending the MJ corpse, dressing him, and that he looked beautiful - weeks after date of death. what she says actually all applies if she was talking of a MJ identical dummy, which would (in her eyes and in her defence to the media / post bam) make her statements true and therefore eligable to put into her book.[/size]
[size=9pt][/size]<br />[size=9pt]Yes, it seems LaToya was charged with guarding/keeping the body, and only letting people see a tiny bit of him/it at a time, lifting a corner of the sheet, to take a sample or whatever. Since when do family members do that? Lol Even on the 25th when it was brought to UCLA, if it was nearly always covered with a sheet, it could fool a lot more people, as they were supposedly trying to protect him from prying people even UCLA staff. So only a couple of doctors needed to be in on it, and the rest believe the illusion. The human mind seems so very weak, and so vulnerable to the powers of suggestion, and not wanting to look like a fool. Thus 99% of the world thinks MJ’s dead.[/size]<br />[size=9pt]I also personally believe that if MJ really didn’t want us hoaxers delving into things, he could have made that day completely convincing. He intentional put in flaws for our benefit to question, or we wouldn’t be here. MJ only lets us see what he wants us to see, no more no less.[/size]
Seriously, are you believing everything the media reports applehead? Do you think that if a dummy or corpse was used, that they really did an autopsy so that they could create a false report (thus NOT based on the corpse)?
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
<br />This is why knowing the WHY of the hoax (7c) is important in order to understand the hows (7a and 7b) because depending on the WHY, the hows would be different (i.e. the 'hows' are/were put into place to fulfill the 'why').<br /><br />IF the WHY did NOT involve fooling anyone who supposedly saw the 'body' at either Carolwood or UCLA...then there is no NEED for anything to be used at all because they were 'in on it' (i.e. a dummy or corpse wasn't needed to fool them...so why go through the trouble?).<br /><br />IF the WHY involved having to 'fool' someone or certain people either at Carolwood or at UCLA or both...people that actually had to SEE a 'body' or something in order to be fooled into thinking it was really MJ...then that would necessitate a NEED to have 'something' as a stand-in (or lay-down lol) in Mike's place (if Mike didn't actually play the part himself).<br /><br />TS said he would rule out a living MJ playing the part (and gave his reasons for it), as well as a living double playing the part (still waiting for TS to post about that). So, the only possible options left IF, in fact, anyone NEEDED to be fooled are: 1) a dummy that looks like MJ, or 2) a corpse (but not just any corpse, it would HAVE to be one that looked like MJ because that would be the whole purpose...to fool whoever into thinking it's really MJ).<br /><br />But the question remains: WHO, at Carolwood or UCLA who supposedly saw the 'body', needed to be fooled and WHY? AND, if that's the case, would a dummy or a corpse have fooled them?<br /><br />I'm having a hard time believing that real paramedics and real doctors and real coroners would or could be fooled into thinking they were working on a real person when, in actuality, they were working on a dummy. So, again, IF a dummy was used, it was because it was NEEDED in order to fool someone at Carolwood, not UCLA. But WHO and why? The only possible 'WHO's are Murray, the kids, Amir, Mohammad and Alvarez since they are the ONLY ones who supposedly saw a 'body'. <br /><br />IF a real body was used, it (again) would've been because there was a NEED to fool people into thinking it was really MJ. A hospice patient may have fooled everyone at Carolwood and perhaps even UCLA...I can agree with that. I guess I'm somewhere between this theory and the theory of nothing at all being used....but leaning more towards 'nothing' at all because I can't figure out WHO would need to be fooled AND who would be fooled...and why there was a need to fool them. A real body, IMO, would ONLY be needed in order to fool real paramedics and real doctors. With the exception of Murray and Alvarez, the only ones who may have needed to be fooled at Carolwood would be Amir or Mohommad...and I can't see the NEED to have a real corpse just to fool either of them since neither testified to 'handling' the body or being around long enough to 'study' it---in that case, a dummy would make more sense to me. I believe that Murray and Alvarez HAD to be in on it and I can't see how MJ could've pulled this all off without the help of at least some doctors at UCLA (Dr. Cooper and Dr. Nguyen). <br /><br />So with the 'real corpse' theory, I'm still stuck with WHO was it meant to fool and why? Just by process of elimination, we can get down to only a very 'few' of the ones that supposedly saw the 'body' who could've possibly had to be fooled by it. IMO, it would be SO much easier and simpler to bring those very 'few' (like Senneff and Blount) into the 'hoax' and eliminate the need to fool anyone...rather than having to go to the trouble of having a real corpse that looks like MJ (enough so to fool people) die on June 25th. <br /><br />But maybe there was a scenario going on that meant having a real MJ-looking-corpse on June 25th wasn't a lot of trouble (i.e. a hospice patient who had plastic surgery to look like MJ and who was sick and being cared for by Mike/Murray and who agreed to have his 'dead body' used on June 25th in order to make MJ's hoax plans more realistic to whoever needed to be fooled). In order to 'prove' that, though, IMO a LOT more dots need to be connected than have been so far. Nor am I sure there are enough 'dots' currently available to prove this scenario.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.<br /><br /><br />
<br /><br /><br />EXACTLY! IF MURRAY, PARAMEDICS, BODYGUARDS ARE ALL IN HOAX, WHY USE DUMMY OR CORPSE AT ALL IF KAI SAID SHE DID NOT SEE HOW MJ GOT ON AMBULANCE? SO, FOOL WHO WITH DUMMY/CORPSE at Carolwood? DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.<br /> WHEN DUMMY OR CORPSE GOT TO UCLA, NO WAY DOCTORS/CORONER, EVEN IF IN HOAX FOR MICHAEL PROTECTION, WOULD LIE UNDER PENALTY THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO REVIVE MICHAEL, BUT IT WAS ACTUALLY DUMMY/CORPSE. THE SAME IS APPLICABLE TO NOTHING WENT TO UCLA VERSION.<br />DOCTORS AND CORONER CAN BE IN HOAX ONLY IF THERE IS A LEGAL GROUND FOR THAT FOR MICHAEL SAFETY.<br />SO, THE 'WHY' IS CLEAR IN MY VERSION (MURDER ATTEMPT) & I STICK WITH IT THAT MICHAEL WAS TAKEN TO UCLA...and whatever I already wrote earlier.
If paramedics and UCLA doctors are in, it doesn't really matter what or who was in the ambulance. Could have been Michael himself, a dummy or a corpse or nothing, if they are all in what does it matter, they won't tell anyway. <br /><br />But I don't believe it was MJ himself alive because I think he already left ...the big question for me is where he was on June 25th.<br /><br />Ans why only Kai from all staff testified? Why they didn't ask the housekeepers what they saw or heard that day? Wasn't this important? I guess those people are not blind or deaf.
Okay Andrea let me try it this way.... <br /><br />Here's how my twisted brain works.... <br /><br />
on 1322425273:
<br />TS said.....<br />"Fourth, the stretcher went into UCLA feet first. If MJ sat up on the stretcher, he would have to be riding it backwards! That is possible, of course, especially if he was planning to sit up; therefore, I consider this only a minor point. Please carefully compare these pictures; the second picture (click the link) is a stretcher from the LAFD, just like the one that went into ULCA. You should be able to see three or four things which show that the stretcher went into UCLA feet first {http://tinyurl.com/7h7l9zy}."<br /><br />It is very easy to see that the feet went first into UCLA. LAFD loads patients with the wheels first...the head is on the end with the wheels. You can see the wheels on the end of the stretcher...they came out last from the ambulance. Hence the feet went first, because they are not at the wheel end of the stretcher. <br /><br />
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on 1322210051:
<br /><br />[size=12pt]To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); [/size] then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.<br /><br />Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories (such as the numerology, with a $999 reward that nobody has even attempted to collect after more than a year) will not be troubled over the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories. Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc).<br /><br />
<br /><br /><br />Hence, the "stretcher" (notice not "Michael") went into the ER feet first, so the video clip of Michael "sitting up" is fake and was manipulated by (Evenstad?), plus TS states Micheal DID NOT go to the hospital in the ambulance....<br /><br />So, that leaves me to understand that Michael was neither on the stretcher nor in the ambulance, correct?<br /><br />So either;<br /><br />1) He was no where near UCLA that day<br /><br /> or <br /><br />2) He was already there/went there disguised as someone else<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
on 1322425273:
<br />TS said:<br /><br />"Fifth, there is one person standing in the doorway, who does not move with the stretcher (Heron). This means that unless the mystery face is that of someone walking with the stretcher on the far side of it, then EVERYONE walking with the stretcher is towards the camera (on the left side and head of it). This of course is possible, but it seems more reasonable that at least one person would be walking the stretcher on the far side (on the right side or foot of it)."<br /><br />
<br /><br />It possibly puts Michael in the vicinity (in disguise) or not there at all....which means there is either a corpse or dummy or nothing on that stretcher.<br /><br />That's my deduction.
<br />Dummy....Corpse...Live MJ.....<br /><br /><br />remind me again why we're trying to figure this out without any definitive proof for either theory?<br /><br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />[size=10pt]Snoopy71 I still don't understand either WHAT'S UP with all these dummies and Corpses :? afraid/ ,lol. Is this Hoax a REAL THRILLER or what :? ??? I don't know much about medicine and AUTOPSY ,but how can you make a real autopsy on a dummy ,lol geek/ !!! OMG and they even took out THE BRAIN out afraid/ ,and then put it back in the dummy head,OMG only thinking at that it makes me sick :?!!!! So even if they used a DEAD CORPSE I can't IMAGINE either them doing that,sorry,because it would be very disperectful for the CORPSE :? !!! <br />Wait !!!! I have a question!!! Why they even needed Michael's BRAIN in the first place????? ODD,very odd :?!!! Look what some news wrote about Michael's brain:<br />[/size]<br /><br />http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/07/05/michael-jackson-to-be-buried-without-his-brain-115875-21495043/<br />Michael Jackson will be buried this week– without his brain. As his family tries to finalise details for the King of Pop’s funeral on Tuesday they have been told it will be held back for tests.<br /><br />They faced the grim choice of waiting up to three weeks for Jackson’s brain to be returned to them or go ahead and bury him without it – which they have decided to do.<br /><br /> Los Angeles Coroner’s spokesman Craig Harvey confirmed that neuropathology tests will be carried out to see if it holds any clues to the exact cause of his death.<br /><br />But the examination cannot begin until at least two weeks after the death when the brain has hardened sufficiently to slice it open.<br /><br />Jackson died from a cardiac arrest at his Beverly Hills mansion on June 25 after a suspected overdose of painkillers.<br /><br />Sources at the coroner’s office revealed that his brain was removed before his body was released to relatives the next day.<br /><br />A forensic neuropathologist will test Jackson’s brain for, among other things, past drug use and whether he has suffered overdoses in the past.<br /><br />The brain can also show any past abuse of alcohol or if the deceased had suffered from any one of a number of diseases. The source said that removing the brain is the “only way to carry out the tests”.<br /><br />“The tissue has to be examined,” he said. “I can’t tell you how long that is going to take.”<br /><br />One expert explained that the Jackson family could decide to wait and bury the brain with the rest of the body. But it is far more common for the lab to burn the remains once they’ve been examined or for them to be placed into the grave at a later date.<br /><br />“It’s up to the family. They can bury him and then bury the brain later on,” said Dr Cyril Wecht, a former coroner and one of America’s foremost forensic pathologists.<br /><br />Advertisement - article continues below »<br />Click here to find out more!<br /><br />But he added: “It’s rare for the body to be held back for two weeks or more.”<br /><br />Jackson’s body was handed over to his family soon after the three-hour autopsy was completed and the Jacksons went on to order a second forensic examination.<br /><br />But Dr Wecht said: “The brain cannot be properly examined at the time of the autopsy. You cannot test it while it is in the body. So it is cut off at the spinal cord and removed.”<br /><br />The brain would usually be placed in a plastic bucket, suspended in formaldehyde fluid, and put in a refridgerator at 4C to preserve it.<br /><br />Dr Wecht went on: “People don’t realise how soft the brain is. To do the type of detailed examination required you need to have the brain much harder – and for that you have to wait for at least 10 days to two weeks.”<br /><br />Dr Wecht, who was not involved in the Jackson autopsies, has reviewed and been consulted on many high-profile deaths, including John F. Kennedy, Elvis Presley and Anna Nicole Smith. afraid/ geek/ <br /><br />“In Los Angeles they have a neuropathologist they work with, and he will be looking at the brain,” he said.<br /><br />It is cut into sections afraid/ afraid/ :? of less than half-an-inch thick and reviewed first by the naked eye and then through a microscopic. “That all takes 17 to 18 days,” Dr Wecht added in an exclusive interview.<br /><br />Dr Wecht, who chronicles his career dissecting more than 16,000 bodies afraid/ afraid/ :? in his best- selling memoir A Question Of Murder, added: “In the 47 years I have been doing this I reckon only about one per cent of families say they want the brain back so they can bury it. In most cases it is incinerated.”<br /><br />The autopsy is expected to show that the 50-year-old singer had drugs in his system when he died :roll: .<br /><br />At various times, he is said to have been taking Demerol and Oxycontin for pain from old back and leg injuries and Diprivan, a hospital anaesthetic, to help him sleep.<br /><br />[size=12pt]- MICHAEL Jackson starred as the Scarecrow in The Wiz, the 1978 musical version of The Wizard of Oz – playing the character without a brain opposite Diana Ross as Dorothy geek/ .[/size]<br />
<br /><br />Well, let me say first, I don't think an actual autopsy was ever done...on a dummy, corpse or otherwise. <br /><br />I was just referring to the use of the "dummys" weight on the AR only as a guide (hence the 136 lbs discrepancy issue), but the rest of the report specs were based on Michael's actual anatomy & physiology.<br /><br />But even with that said, I still don't understand the impact of using a "dummy" would have on the hoax, unless it is to simply mock the media.
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"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.""For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."