Ok, after all of the posts of TS, I think we can finally say that the Alive MJ theory was debunked, as well as "nothing went to UCLA" was debunked and also the dummy theory is about to fall down. I do not want to repeat myself because I've already written that I believe a corpse was used. A donated corpse would make it as real as possible. So the paramedics and the doctors wouldn't need to be in on the hoax. What bothers me is, why the paramedics said that they recognized MJ? Suzy wrote back <br /><br />
on 1322472455:
<br />I think the theory that involves the LEAST risk at this point is still, the corpse. Blount said he recognized MJ but that does not mean it was MJ. If he was told who the patient was, his brain would make that connection automatically believing who he saw, was who he was told it was. It's the way the mind works, he wouldn't have even questioned because why would he? Why would UCLA staff? If the doc's were also not in the hoax, they too would not question what they were being told; especially given the family confirmed who the "patient" was. 99.9999% of the world believes MJ's dead, so even if medical personnel didn't think the patient was Michael, it wouldn't make much of a difference. All the corpse had to have was fair skin, dark hair, and be thin. In fact, it could have resembled Fat Albert but no one would question would they? LOL <br />
<br /><br />which sounds possible to me. Another possibility is, Blount was not in on the hoax at first but according to circumstances they involved him into the hoax and that is the reason why he said he recognized MJ at the trial. Maybe any of the paramedics were going to testify at the trial but then the plan changed and one of them had to give testimony and they included Blount into the plan. Possible.<br /><br />MJonmind wrote that they could have changed the corpse's face and made him look like MJ but that would take lots of time and the corpse needed to die on the 25th to deceive the paramedics and the doctors, so I think we can skip that one. Plus a dead person could not heal, so the if they made changes on his face, the scars would be too obvious and I'm not even sure if a dead person's face can be changed.<br /><br />MJ's plan could never be being in the event area that day as it would be too risky for him not only because of the threats he got but also he wouldn't risk himself to be seen by the public while they believed that he was dead. This would ruin the plan. <br /><br />I think we're also getting an idea about the reasonS of the hoax ONCE AGAIN. TS wrote it long long ago about the reasons but some people missed the most important reason of the hoax. THE THREAT issue. I hope everyone will be understanding that this is not only an entertainment plan like a movie or an ARG but also there's a very serious part of the hoax which is about the threats Michael received in his life.
<br />As much as some of us don't 'like' the corpse theory...if you reread TS' 'advice' in the OP of this thread, he said to change only what would need to be changed in order to keep it both as simple and realistic as possible. I don't know anything about obtaining a dead body or making agreements with terminally ill people to use their bodies after death...so I don't know how 'simple' those procedures would be. However, IF the FBI is involved, along with other 'key' people in key places (i.e. the coroner, some UCLA staff), perhaps this wasn't as difficult as we may think it was.<br /><br />But it does fulfill the keeping it 'realistic' point. IF there was a corpse that was somehow in the vicinity of looking kinda MJ-like (i.e. you couldn't have a corpse that weighed 200 lbs, etc)...then all recollections (testimonies) wouldn't need to be fully scripted and the amount of people in on it kept to a minimum. The paramedics not in on it would have really worked on a body, same with any UCLA docs that weren't in on it....as well as covering the risk of anyone not in on it catching a glimpse of anything. I don't know how far they took 'realistic'...but if the 'patient's' name had been legally changed to 'Michael Jackson' beforehand...then a lot of the testimony given is the 'truth' of what actually occurred on June 25th (except for the instances where the 'patient' is specifically referred to as 'Michael Jackson, the entertainer', etc).<br /><br />Hmmm...I've been putting the corpse theory on the backburner because it is the least favorable. But now that I am looking at it more closely...IF it is what took place (and hopefully TS can confirm this at some point today, so we can tackle 7c), I can see/understand why MJ would agree or decide to go this route. The success of the mission....especially one of this scale....would've been first and foremost. IF they felt that a real corpse was NEEDED, for whatever reason, then it was done. And knowing that it's Mike running the show, I'm fully confident that IF this was done, then it was done respectfully and with permission from all relevant parties. <br /><br />On another note...I was just going over Blount's testimony again and I know this was definitely mentioned elsewhere but maybe it will help us now with something :?:. He said that when he walked into the bedroom there was Goodwin, Mills, and Heron (all 3 rode the firetruck...why didn't they testify???), Senneff and Murray. He said the 'patient' was fully on the bed and he observed Goodwin and Heron assisting Murray getting the 'patient' onto the floor. He was then asked if there was anyone else in the room at that time and he said 'no'. <br /><br />IF Blount is NOT in on the hoax...he's either telling the truth or he's mistaken (why would he lie?). But I'm thinking that's not a 'minor' detail that he'd be mistaken about...I'd think a trained professional would most definitely recall seeing his colleagues assist in putting the 'patient' on the floor. If he's telling the truth, then this completely contradicts other testimony saying Alvarez and Murray were the ones to put the 'patient' on the floor and also the 911 call....not to mention testimony that placed Alvarez in the room when paramedics entered. It also contradicts the paramedic report (done by Senneff) because that report says the 'patient' was found on the floor. So...IF Alvarez is in on the hoax, then I would guess that Senneff is as well because his report matches Alvarez's statement/testimony and supports the 911 call. And Blount maybe isn't in on it and was telling the truth :? :?:<br /><br />But then what about bec's great point about Blount and the ambu pic????<br /><br /><br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.<br />
<br /><br />Great post BTC......I especially love the stick figure animation....that is SO me right now! <br />Something occurred to me while reading your post, however. The order of who gave their testimony in court....was Blount first, second...what? I am thinking about the power of suggestion. If Blount is in on it, perhaps he helped lead the other paramedics through using the power of suggestion when they were on the scene...such as, "....wow, this is Michael Jackson we have here...." in the moment of emergency, would the others stop and really think about it, or would they just take his suggestive word as truth. From that moment on, in their minds, it's Michael Jackson they are working on...all because of one person suggesting it. Do you follow? <br />The stick figure should be my signature, lol. geek/<br />Thanks again for the post BTC.......and for the animation : ) <br /><br />Blessings Always
<br />... <br />I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.<br />
<br /><br />Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.<br /><br />MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).<br />
<br /><br />Oh duh... that's of course the most logic explanation... That's what you get when you have too much other stuff on your mind that is EATING UP your brain cells. I am going to grow some new once and think of a scenario.<br /><br /> lolol/<br />
<br /><br />For argument's sake...what if...MJ's 'ORIGINAL' plan included him jetting off on a plane beforehand, therefore not going to the hospital. <br /><br />The key players for the events of June 25th are prepared for handling, let's say, a dummy. Because TS said MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital. <br /><br />What if it was his secret plan though? And he doesn't tell certain people who MIGHT leak the hoax, like the paramedics or something. <br /><br />So the paramedics show up expecting MJ to be long gone to the airport and to take a dummy (or corpse..but no, I just can't with that) to the hospital, but instead of a dummy, it's Michael! Plan proceeds as normal.<br /><br />Except if anyone did happen to leak anything to say, the "Illuminati", they would already think Michael wasn't going to be there, when he actually was.<br /><br />Ok, so I'll be quiet about the Live MJ thing for now, since most (not all) have dismissed it.
@hesoutamylife, the numerology proves that this was planned for decades, so we can rule out any escape plan.<br /><br />In fact, we can rule out that the O2 concerts were ever intended to happen, by MJ anyway.<br /><br />I think we can also safely rule out that MJ allowed himself to be put under anesthetic every night or even one night in the days and weeks leading up to 6/25/09.<br /><br />@TS, if MJ was concerned about the Illuminati making a hit on him, we can rule out the death hoax completely for the exact reason you stated, once he is "dead" to the world, the Illuminati could make a hit on him with 100% assurance that NO ONE would be suspicious. He's already "dead", so he could be effectively removed in very clean, very organized, orderly fashion. MJ would know this, being the genius he is, and would have stayed SOLIDLY in the public eye FOREVER to make sure it didn't happen. To drop out of sight would be very dangerous.<br /><br />So is that exactly what happened then? MJ hoaxed his death and the Illuminati moved in and rubbed him out behind the scenes? Yeah right, tell me another one, TS.<br /><br />We know that this didn't happen because of the family's reaction: "justice was served". So were they talking about Murray being the sole suspect found guilty and now case closed? Well, yes, incidentally they were... but not because MJ is actually dead. Because he's not dead and this is a movie that will precipitate changing the world by shattering the public's blind trust of the media.
<br />I agree, Bec.<br />PureLove, I'm not saying corpse at all, but a LIVE person on life support, just brain dead.<br /><br />MaryK
<br /><br />MJonmind I have a few questions regarding your theory:<br /> <br /> How had the hospice patient been brought to the house and when?<br /> Was he still on life support IN the house and someone switched it off? If so: where did the life support equipment go before the paramedics arrived?<br />
I mentioned possibly the extra unfamiliar security guards seen on the 24th by fans. I think he would have been on life support until the exact time period when Murray said he went to the bathroom. Then Murray switched off the life support, unhooked everything, removed all that equipment leaving only the simple propofol IV pole etc. needed for the hoax scenario. That’s when Murray said he saw that “MJ” wasn’t breathing. There was plenty of time for the hoax life support stuff to be snuck out before the house was cordoned off by LAPD. <br />I think all this is helped by the fact that this medic person claims ALL is authentic on the medical side of things:<br /><br />Wishingstar
<br /><br />Was it Souza or Snoopy71 talking about TS giving out disinformation about MJ to the airport?<br />Maybe TS is using this site to put out false information for the Illuminati who he knows are reading here as guests. Just like Lou said MJ used a dummy in an ambulance as a decoy to distract paps, just so the Illuminati maybe also watched Jermaine and his slipup, and thought MJ skipped town, allowing him to remain here with his kids. That lone airplane might have been a decoy.<br />I remember them saying that right after the kids moved to Encino, that someone was driving past the house and said it was being guarded like Fort Knox. That made me think MJ was there. What about the time they were coming out of their marshal arts class and all the hiding someone with jackets?
@Andrea, I'm still in on Live MJ. It's not debunked in the slightest. I think the majority are sidetracked by the fiction aspect.<br /><br />If we REALLY were supposed to figure this all out as a team with no outside influence to prevent entrapment, it wouldn't be quite so obscure. He has ways of making things *crystal* clear to us and only us... yet as it is... 56 pages later we still haven't any clue. So this is either doomed to fail that entrapment prevention requirement or... or this is the ARG aspect. This is our story.<br /><br /><br /><br />
on 1322519330:
<br />The stick figure should be my signature, lol. geek/<br />
<br /><br />The stick figure should be our new forum banner.
<br /><br />I agree, Bec.<br />PureLove, I'm not saying corpse at all, but a LIVE person on life support, just brain dead.<br /><br />MaryK
<br /><br />MJonmind I have a few questions regarding your theory:<br /> <br /> How had the hospice patient been brought to the house and when?<br /> Was he still on life support IN the house and someone switched it off? If so: where did the life support equipment go before the paramedics arrived?<br />
I mentioned possibly the extra unfamiliar security guards seen on the 24th by fans. I think he would have been on life support until the exact time period when Murray said he went to the bathroom. Then Murray switched off the life support, unhooked everything, removed all that equipment leaving only the simple propofol IV pole etc. needed for the hoax scenario. That’s when Murray said he saw that “MJ” wasn’t breathing. There was plenty of time for the hoax life support stuff to be snuck out before the house was cordoned off by LAPD. <br />I think all this is helped by the fact that this medic person claims ALL is authentic on the medical side of things:<br /><br />Wishingstar
<br /><br />Was it Souza or Snoopy71 talking about TS giving out disinformation about MJ to the airport?<br />Maybe TS is using this site to put out false information for the Illuminati who he knows are reading here as guests. Just like Lou said MJ used a dummy in an ambulance as a decoy to distract paps, just so the Illuminati maybe also watched Jermaine and his slipup, and thought MJ skipped town, allowing him to remain here with his kids. That lone airplane might have been a decoy.<br />I remember them saying that right after the kids moved to Encino, that someone was driving past the house and said it was being guarded like Fort Knox. That made me think MJ was there. What about the time they were coming out of their marshal arts class and all the hiding someone with jackets?<br />
<br /> suspicious// suspicious// suspicious//<br /><br />You know I'm so tired of not being able to trust anyone.<br />That scenario you describe above crossed my mind a few times in the last couple of days.If someone tried to kill MJ, wouldn't they be suspicious now that his death is a hoax? Wouldn't they "investigate", just like [size=12pt]we think[/size] we do here? Wouldn't they try to find him and kill him now??<br /> crash/ crash/ crash/
<br />http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011<br /><br />Good eye! <!-- s --><!-- s --> <br /><br />Although some have said that this thread is just going in circles, and nothing accomplished, yet there has been some definite progress. There have been strong arguments presented both for and against the corpse theory (with neither side fully convincing the other). But this can be a good thing; we will get a lot more information during the hearings, and some may find it easier to keep the faith with the corpse theory.<br /><br />On the other hand, I agree with bec and others, that the corpse theory is the least desirable—and would certainly be avoided if there was any other feasible way. Some are very strongly opposed to this idea, while others are not; and although the emotional argument holds a lot of weight on this forum (at least with some), it probably would not hold much if any weight in a court of law—which is the type of evidence we are looking for.<br /><br />And yes, I did say the fewer the better, not the fewest the best; nevertheless, for the sake of the challenge if nothing else, let’s examine this question from the fewest possible concept (and this is NOT the actual case, but for the purpose of making the point). <br /><br />What if MJ actually died morning of 6-25-09: how many would need to be “in on it”? NONE! Why? Because it would not be a hoax, and there would be no hoax for anyone to be “in on”. Then what if someone else actually died morning of 6-25-09, such as a hospice patient on life support: how many would need to be “in on it”? None, EXCEPT the following: those at the house who knew about the hospice patient there (could be none other than MJ and Murray), and one or at most a few involved in the autopsy.<br /><br />But in that case, wouldn’t people realize that it was not MJ? Scientific analysis (such as dental records) would only be done at the coroner; so this is why at least one there would need to be in. As far as visual recognition by others (paramedics, hospital staff, etc): this might not be as big of a problem as you would think. There are several things that would tend to distract people’s attention from the recognition factor: the power of suggestion (others saying that it is MJ), reports of baldness and wigs, and recent plastic surgery, and not very many recent pictures in the news, and the intensity of an emergency situation with a high profile VIP, and other distractions such as the fire alarm, etc (distractions created by the few who are in on it).<br /><br />We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ. And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also? In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it. Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.<br /><br />So again, if anyone can debunk the corpse theory, please do. But not with emotional reactions please, only documented evidence. And there were a couple of good comments on the life support patient idea {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766}.<br /><br />See also a similar but slightly different theory {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518}.<br />
@Adi thank you for posting this from above. Reading it again I think TS is an eccentric person who has all the time in the world at his disposal smiley_spider.<br />Because this post from above SEEMS to support the corpse theory....yet TS said he never supported ANY of the theories.<br />Yet I can't wait for him/her to come and post again WTF??<br /><br />
<br />PureLove, I'm not saying corpse at all, but a LIVE person on life support, just brain dead.<br />
<br /><br />Ahhh, I'm sorry hun. It's my mistake. Got you. And yeah, that is possible too. But if they used a person on a life support, how did they arrange the date perfectly and pull out the plug on the 25th? But maybe that person was homeless and they got all the permission etc. That would be a long procedure imo and I think they used a corpse no matter what his face looked like. Maybe they used a wig and a little make-up or so. That would be easier and still could be enough to deceive the ones who were working on him.
If it is to consider what the family says, so .... which means Jermaine say goodbye to Michael (who was looking anorexic and much lower than in May) and kissed her forehead, saying: Go in peace, brother!<br />What about Latoya saying he was all pierced with needles?<br /><br />Who is he, TS? The doll? A double? A corpse? Michael himself? Or just an illusion or lie of Latoya and Jermaine? /pull hair/<br /><br />BTW, the theory of look-alike has not been fully unmasked, for me. If it's for security reasons .... there were 10 security guards around that ambulance!
<br />Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either. I was thinking of you when I said (not all).<br />
<br /><br />Ladies, TS wrote:<br /><br />
on 1322466750:
<br />That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital. Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.<br /><br />[size=14pt]Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?[/size]<br />
<br /><br />I also would love to hear your strong points that MJ went to UCLA. I'm trying to understand why you are not eliminating this theory, and why you are not convinced with the 5 strong points TS wrote about MJ not going to UCLA.
<br />Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either. I was thinking of you when I said (not all).<br />
<br /><br />Ladies, TS wrote:<br /><br />
on 1322466750:
<br />That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital. Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.<br /><br />[size=14pt]Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?[/size]<br />
<br /><br />I also would love to hear your strong points that MJ went to UCLA. I'm trying to understand why you are not eliminating this theory, and why you are not convinced with the 5 strong points TS wrote about MJ not going to UCLA.<br />
<br />Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either. I was thinking of you when I said (not all).<br />
<br /><br />Ladies, TS wrote:<br /><br />
on 1322466750:
<br />That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital. Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.<br /><br />[size=14pt]Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?[/size]<br />
<br /><br />I also would love to hear your strong points that MJ went to UCLA. I'm trying to understand why you are not eliminating this theory, and why you are not convinced with the 5 strong points TS wrote about MJ not going to UCLA.<br />
<br /><br />Actually I was wondering the same.<br />
<br /><br />Because of that confusing post about the original plan..I think...
I gave 4 good points 25 pages ago that haven't been answered to, I don't think. I'll go dig that post up, hang on.<br /><br />
on 1322242318:
<br />
Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.<br /><br />Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.<br /><br />Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.<br /><br />To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.
<br /><br />
Live MJ:<br />Pros:<br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"<br />Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening<br /><br />There are certain key people, already collectively accepted to be in on it (bodyguards, Paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA, coroner) that would ensure MJ's safe passage that day. <br /><br />Cons:<br />Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient<br />Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving<br />
<br /><br />I await your attempts at process of elimination of the Live MJ theory and I'm hoping you address some of the points I brought up, TS, because I did not include "Because it's fun" as a Pro in support of the theory. I have thrown that out in the past, in conversation, but when it comes to the nitty gritty reality of it, I set it aside... because you have to. <br /><br />So, "fun" part thrown out the window, what have you addressed? It couldn't be live MJ in the ambulance because TII was billed as "different" then what we would expect from MJ? Well clearly, nearly his entire fan base would call a hoax definitely DIFFERENT then the MJ they know, as proven by their vast numbers supporting the death scenario... so MJ is already behaving DIFFERENTLY... and I do not accept that it is logical that the byline DISCOVER THE MAN YOU NEVER KNEW was addressed only to hoaxers, especially considering the line "FOR THE FANS..." heralded the opening of the movie.<br /><br />Success of the project trumps fun, agreed, which is why I didn't list FUN as a Pro in support of the Live MJ theory.<br /><br />Again, change only what you need to change. MJ in that ambulance from Carrolwood--->UCLA abides by this investigation method in it's purest form. The only thing that needs to be changed is the DEAD part. Everything else stays the same.<br /><br />We know Bodyguards are in on it. We know Paramedics are in on it. We know Cooper/Nyugen are in on it. I agree with Gina that Kai must be in on it because the risk of her breaking character (running upstairs) seeing something (Security NOT ALLOWED in the house) is far too great to leave her out (risk outweighs possible benefit).<br /><br />Considering we are only dealing with the scene at the house and traveling to UCLA, and being unloaded just outside the door, and subsequently ushered through to the private ER wing; what witnesses are we concerned with seeing Live MJ move/breathe/cough necessitating something being used that would play dead better then MJ himself? <br /><br />Those are brief potential views... extremely brief and extremely limited opportunities.<br /><br />-Through a crack in the fence, as Ben's video illustrates---VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ANYTHING CLEARLY, you're not going to be able to stop and stare hard enough to see if the "patient"s chest is rising and falling (breathing). In order to see that you would have to have an uninterrupted view of the rib cage area for at least 4 full seconds (15-20 breaths/minute=average respiration rate). <br />-Through the ambulance window-- Again, unlikely from the start, just because it would be difficult for anyone to get past large security man and Ben's team to sneak a peak. Even if they did, again, you have the 4 second need to witness respiration.<br />-While being unloaded at UCLA-- We see the ambulance having backed almost directly up to the doorway of the ER, allowing Paramedics quick and direct access to getting inside. Anyone who might get a view of the stretcher here, again, isn't going to be able to see past security and paramedics for 4 uninterrupted seconds to see MJ breathing. <br />-While being rushed through the ER en-route to the private wing MJ's entourage reportedly was ushered into. Again, with bodyguards and paramedics surrounding the stretcher, no one unauthorized is going to get a 4 second uninterrupted view of MJ's rib cage to determine if he is breathing or not. <br /><br />I am hard pressed to find a situation from loading at Carrolwood to unloading at UCLA ("who or what went to UCLA that day") where anyone not in on the hoax would get an uninterrupted 4 second view of the "body" and thus making "possibly seeing Live MJ breathe" a major concern and therefore RISK to this theory.<br /><br />Again, just focus on this one aspect: Carrolwood--->UCLA for purposes of my post and support or finding holes in the Live MJ theory. Helicopter and Coroner van are not directly related as a switch to a corpse or dummy could be done @UCLA, and is therefore irrelevant to this post.<br /><br />So, TS, I am having trouble finding the risk of this theory and consider the benefits I listed:<br /><br />Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events<br />Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body" (small glimpses <4 seconds, as explained above)<br />Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening<br /><br />strong enough to outweigh the risks in this Live MJ theory. There is risk with every scenario presented, so "risk" alone doesn't debunk anything.<br />
And Andrea threw out another good, strong point in rebuttal of TS's 'Illuminati was after MJ' theory by pointing out this gives MJ an additional reason to be there himself as it was the last place TPTB would expect him to be.<br /><br />Another strong point, MJ always starred in his own productions.<br /><br />The movie theory really does run parallel to this Illuminati-escape theory and to me, it explains this aspect that TS talks about.<br /><br />I guess I'm not convinced of the life and death aspect of a hoax that puts toys in the court room, releases videos of MJ jumping out of coroner van, has Poppa Joe selling perfume, the kids Twittering zombie videos, and LaToya Facebooking 52 times a day.<br /><br />Ps. I've also never had it addressed as to why this FBI sting/vague and cryptic references to "Bad Guys" that TS always talks about seems to exactly mirror the Moonwalker film-->Smooth Criminal, which contains the lyrics that coincidentally SOUND JUST LIKE "Dr. Murray rescessitation..."
<br />... <br />I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.<br />
<br /><br />Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.<br /><br />MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).<br />
<br /><br />Oh duh... that's of course the most logic explanation... That's what you get when you have too much other stuff on your mind that is EATING UP your brain cells. I am going to grow some new once and think of a scenario.<br /><br /> lolol/<br />
<br /><br />For argument's sake...what if...MJ's 'ORIGINAL' plan included him jetting off on a plane beforehand, therefore not going to the hospital. <br /><br />The key players for the events of June 25th are prepared for handling, let's say, a dummy. Because TS said MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital. <br /><br />What if it was his secret plan though? And he doesn't tell certain people who MIGHT leak the hoax, like the paramedics or something. <br /><br />So the paramedics show up expecting MJ to be long gone to the airport and to take a dummy (or corpse..but no, I just can't with that) to the hospital, but instead of a dummy, it's Michael! Plan proceeds as normal.<br /><br />Except if anyone did happen to leak anything to say, the "Illuminati", they would already think Michael wasn't going to be there, when he actually was.<br /><br />Ok, so I'll be quiet about the Live MJ thing for now, since most (not all) have dismissed it.<br />
<br /><br />I was wondering sorta along these lines too.<br />So, TS says Michael didn't go to ucla alive. <br />And his ORIGINAL plan was not to go to the hosp because someone could've leaked his plan.<br />Now, say it WAS leaked, and they did get to Michael. <br />He went to the hospital, as NOT his original plan, <br />but ... just as they've said. Not alive.<br />But, in the hospital, they actually resuscitated him.<br />Now, I know that don't fit with Jermaine's slip up so I don't actually believe this plan either.
<br />Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either. I was thinking of you when I said (not all).<br />
<br /><br />Ladies, TS wrote:<br /><br />
on 1322466750:
<br />That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital. Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.<br /><br />[size=14pt]Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?[/size]<br />
<br /><br />I also would love to hear your strong points that MJ went to UCLA. I'm trying to understand why you are not eliminating this theory, and why you are not convinced with the 5 strong points TS wrote about MJ not going to UCLA.<br />
<br /><br />Actually I was wondering the same.<br />
<br /><br />Because of that confusing post about the original plan..I think...<br />
<br /><br />I'll add to what bec said in her post (I might end up repeating stuff too).<br /><br />1 - We see the body (MJ) sit up in the helicopter.<br /><br /><br />2 - You can see the body (again, presumably MJ) kick/move his legs after the guy hoists him in the coroner van. This video is not as good as the one Snoopy posted but that vid is no longer available, oddly enough. Around the minute mark.<br /><br /><br />3 - The video of Michael jumping out of the coroner van. Yes, this was "debunked" (for the masses who already think he's dead) by a German television station that has had connections to Michael in the past. This video was released on 8-25-09, the same day the autopsy photo was taken, even though the photo date was said to be a "mistake".<br /><br /><br />4 - Gives Michael hands on direction of his hoax. TS said that MJ wouldn't make a double take his spot as he wouldn't put someone else in a target position like that. And yet by believing MJ flew off on an unscheduled private jet, we are led to believe that Michael would put EVERYONE ELSE actively involved in the events of the hoax that day AT RISK??!? While he's safely tucked away on a plane or at his destination? I don't think so.<br /><br />5 - It's a movie. Agree with bec that MJ stars in his own films.<br /><br />6 - TS said one of the seven reasons for the hoax was a 'prank'. What better way to prank the world than play dead in front of everyone's eyes?<br /><br />In my opinion, the above points along with bec's, are no less strong than the points TS gave to debunk the live MJ theory.<br /><br /><br /><br />
Bec, thank you for re-posting your post.<br /><br />
on 1322524634:
<br /><br />We know Bodyguards are in on it. We know Paramedics are in on it. We know Cooper/Nyugen are in on it. I agree with Gina that Kai must be in on it because the risk of her breaking character (running upstairs) seeing something (Security NOT ALLOWED in the house) is far too great to leave her out (risk outweighs possible benefit).
<br /><br />We KNOW paramedics, the doctors and Kai are in on it? How do we know that? The staff left the house before the ambulance left, so Kai and other staff are not in on the hoax except the bodyguards. <br /><br />
on 1322524634:
<br />strong enough to outweigh the risks in this Live MJ theory. There is risk with every scenario presented, so "risk" alone doesn't debunk anything.<br />
<br /><br />I believe that the only risk of this all was not the threat issue but also the risk of the plan get ruined if MJ was seen alive by anyone who is not in on the hoax. Anyone in the hospital, in the ER might have got into the room and saw that he was alive. He wouldn't risk his master plan destroyed because of him. <br /><br />Yes, Michael likes to starred in his productions but this is not an ordinary production of him and he is the director of this plan and therefore he doesn't need to be in the location personally. Giving directions to the people at the location would be enough and would be less risky.<br /><br />TPTB is not consist of a couple of people. They are strong and smart enough and I do not believe that they would be dismissing to control the first or the last place they expect him to be. <br /><br />Your points did not convince me to believe in the MJ Live theory but TS' points are really strong and sounds more logical to me. But this is my opinion. I'm wondering what TS will be saying to your points tho. Thank you for sharing them once again bec.
LOL @bec. I've left a window open a crack in the off chance that this level and/or this whole hoax will end with "and that's a wrap!" Sometimes I think my own brain starts to drift into too much 'fiction-type' scenarios...but then I think 'what if'? What IF there really was a real danger? So for my own peace of mind (lol), I need to come up with some sort of scenario that would 'fit' that angle as well.<br /><br />I really like the Live MJ theory...it suits him best and maybe TS is just trying to throw us off (I haven't lost sight of that possibility). BUT, given that we are down to the wire and this level is supposed to end tomorrow...and TS, all of a sudden, is handing out silver cutlery on silver trays...I'm giving what he's got to say a fighting chance lol. He's either playing with us or he's trying to get us to SEE what really happened. I'm not sure either way...but would like to see where he's going with this.<br /><br />The problem with the Live MJ theory is that the ONLY piece of 'evidence' we had was the sitting up in the stretcher pics...those have been debunked. There's no way to know whether or not it's MJ the other times we see the 'body' (helicopter, coroner van, etc). So all other points are conjecture...what we think MJ would do. And that may be right, unless there really WAS something serious going on. We know MJ LOVES being on stage (even though he doesn't like touring lol)...he's said he's most comfortable when performing...BUT, if there was ever a threat or some other serious issue, I'm sure he'd cancel. That's just being smart. The tricky part here is trying to figure out IF there was something serious going on and whether or not it was 'smarter' for him to be gone. <br /><br />Because we don't yet know for sure...I'm running parallel theories lol...hence the 'banging the head' gif <br /><br />@WishingStar...glad you liked the 'animation'....I think a few of us are feeling like that right about now And great point about the power of suggestion...something TS mentioned in the post ADI posted. It's pretty powerful on its own, but when combined with not wanting to look like the idiot for being the only one who doesn't SEE what everyone else seems to see...it can become extremely powerful.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.
I'm gonna go one further. The "missing" security footage. If there's a dead body laying there, or a life like dummy, and all the events proceeded just as they tell it why no security footage? Where'd it go? It being "missing" indicates there was something on that footage that no one was allowed to see, necessitating it's destruction. Would this footage existing not enhance the illusion of a death hoax? Dramatic footage released of Michael's last minutes attended by Murray in the bed, cut to scene of Paramedics rushing in, cut to scene of stretcher being carried out... wonderful stuff to convince the world AND The Illuminati that MJ was deader then a doornail. Surely at least they would have footage of MJ coming home the night before. But no. Nothing.<br /><br />As it is, the "missing" footage arouses curiosity, which can quickly turn into suspicion, and not just by hoaxers. It's a rabbit trail that to anyone SUSPECTING that MJ might try to fake his death to escape them (Illuminati) would latch onto and investigate to death before being satisfied of actual death.<br /><br />But whatever. What is a strong point? Because I think this theory is full of them. Others think TS's Illuminati theory has strong points and I'm off my tree. This whole thing is turning into my opinion against your opinion (collective).<br /><br />PureLove, you posted while I was finishing this post:<br /><br />We don't KNOW that the staff left the house before the ambulance did, that's just what we were told. <br /><br />Does [size=14pt]any[/size] part of this death hoax sound logical? Frankly, the only thing that sounds logical to me is that MJ hoaxed his death as a giant piece of performance art as a major comeback, because he can, and to show off for his kids. His art is his life so there is no "just" or trivial aspect to what I envision at all.<br /><br />What is logical? Something with precedent. There is no precedent for this.
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