<br />Relating to 7c, I want to bring up the following TMZ article:<br /><br />DR. MURRAY MANSLAUGHTER TRIAL<br />Jury Goes Down the Toilet<br />{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0}<br /><br />The article itself is merely about the jury asking for toilet paper, and paper towels--definitely NOT a newsworthy item. But the TITLE of the article tells a different story than the article itself. Also, the picture has three sets of 6 rolls of toilet paper (666).<br /><br />This was posted on TMZ after the jury made its decision, and before the verdict was announced. Since La Toya has confirmed that Harvey Levin knows what is going on (and we have seen that for a long time, anyway): they probably knew at the time that the verdict was guilty.<br /><br />TMZ took the article down, shortly after it was posted on the hoax forum (which means that they were probably watching to see when we posted it here, and then they deleted it on TMZ). They did not go to all the trouble to create the picture, and post the article, for nothing (only to delete it shortly after). Therefore, what is the message that we are supposed to get from this article, in relation to the jury and therefore the court?<br />
<br /><br />I went and looked again.<br />TMZ didn't post the toilet paper article after the jury made its decision. It was in the middle of the deliberation, not after.<br />I took a print-screen when they updated, and few moments later (few minutes, I was on TMZ) they put the article up. So it was before the verdict was reached with almost an hour.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />An hour later they updated that the verdict was reached<br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />@Anna...I'm not sure if you are questioning what TS wrote but what you're saying is what he wrote in the part I bolded. The point is that TMZ KNEW the verdict before it was officially announced (in court).<br /><br />Once again, TMZ had the 'inside scoop' before anyone else did. I think there's only a couple possible reasons as to how they would've known beforehand. One reason could be if a deputy somehow spilled the beans. But, I'm not sure if a deputy is even in the room with the jurors...or if one is just posted outside the deliberation room. I guess that's a possibility.<br /><br />But IMO, the more likely reason is because someone on that jury was 'planted'....he/she was the source of the info. Assuming the whole jury wasn't 'in on it'....I think a 'planted' jury member is highly likely cause MJ would want someone on the 'inside' listening in and reporting back. This would've been very easy to do IF both the DA and defense attorneys were 'in on it'...and I believe they were. <br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.
[size=12pt]I've been going over my notes & some of our past posts and have changed my mind on very little; a dummy doesn't need a warm room...[/size]<br /><br />TS:<br />In the second level, there have been a few strong points in support of FBI involvement; and nobody has debunked any of these strong points [url=http://{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313461&#p313461}]{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313461&#p313461}[/url].<br />The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it. <br /><br />On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. <br /><br />Re: TIAI May 1<br />Postby MsTrinity333 » Mon May 02, 2011 9:11 am<br />After going back through my posts on the Third Level on pages 3, 4, 7, 9, & 11 I have read nothing that has changed my mind concerning FBI involvement and a real body... Then again perhaps the Three Way Theory means a combination of all three possibilities. suspicious//<br /><br />Others have posted lots of great investigative information about the whole corpse thing.<br />I applaud all their hard work. beerchug I have stated my opinions; but I do not have the time or the energy to do all the background research to flesh them out as I am dealing with my own family issues...<br /><br />We all know there have been death threats, dirty prosecutions, & business dealings against MJ. I find it hard to beLIEve only a dummy would be used in a sting. This is not ALL a movie. Something big is going on or else doctors who had contact with MJ over the yrs would not be going down. mj_dance/<br /><br />No one allowed upstairs?, nobody RECOGNIZED MJ? elderly man? Asian? wrong bedroom, urine sample in bottle found in the bedroom, oxygen tanks, location & timing of 911 call...that day and the other dd, Jermaine's slip about MJ at the airport, missing security tapes, money & hard drive... official Autopsy report was released or finalized 09.09.09, Trauma Gershwin blood sample & second toe tag with same name. (Trauma Gershwin = hospital code for hi-profile cases) Soule Shaun, or Shaun Soule that MJ was supposedly admitted under meaning God is Gracious, fire alarm & lock-down of the facility, syringe with mysterious fingerprint? Sting.<br /><br />Some of us had a whole conversation on this subject:http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=75<br /><br />Re: TIAI April 11<br />Postby MsTrinity333 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:55 pm<br />jacilovesmichael wrote:<br />I just have to say that I really don't find the concept of a real body being used quite as morbid as some, and I'm pretty sensitive. I think we have to remember that if a real body was used, we have no idea who the individual was or how/why they were chosen. People donate their bodies to science all the time. In a way, this would be the same type of thing. Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot <br /><br />~Souza~ wrote:<br />I agree, I don't see it as morbid either, I would see it as an honor if that was the last thing I could contribute to the world.<br />I am still trying to figure some things out, I will try to get back with a theory later. I think the real corpse is very possible, but I still have to figure out why they would need to use it. <br /><br />Trinity:<br />Ditto... not that morbid.<br />As some of us have noted; people donate bodies for various things; so why not? As to why a REAL body...?<br />Did someone need to SEE "evidence"? Was this part of the sting? The realism? The show? He's dead...I saw the body. Or it must be true...I saw them take a body out of the house. etc.<br /><br />Re: TIAI April 11<br />Post by PureLove » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:59 pm <br />Probably a real body had to be used to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. They didn't want the EMTs or coroners or hospital know about the hoax.<br /><br />Re: TIAI April 11<br />Postby MsTrinity333 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:38 am <br />Clearly as we get into the more serious issues of the hoax there's going to be some desertion in the ranks; can't be helped. This isn't all fun & games here. <br /><br />Re: TIAI April 11<br />Postby MsTrinity333 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:48 pm <br />* Body logistics not that difficult for FBI. Let's not assume Michael had anything to do with this...it may not have been his choice, but was done because it had to be. :oops: This may have something to do with a sting op. In one of my last conversations with Kitty she told me doctors were going down in CA, AZ & Florida. These are docs MJ had contact with 10-20 yrs ago. Coincidence?<br /><br />Re: TIAI April 11<br />Postby MsTrinity333 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:45 am<br /><br />fordtocarr wrote:<br />This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up. I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it. Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him. (I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)<br /><br />PureLove wrote:<br />Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.<br /><br />I still go with a dead body was used theory. It doesn't sound sick or impossible to me. And no need to be a magic that FBI did. It's not too hard to find someone died close to that hour and they might have used it to keep as few people as possible on the hoax. Michael didn't need to plan every each of the details, FBI was helping him out about it too. So it could be FBI's choice to use a dead body. And as I wrote before, just a couple of key people in everywhere like the coroner, the hospital etc would be enough to pull the hoax.<br /><br />navibl wrote:<br />Thank you PureLove….I really HATE the word hoax because people always get a picture of a joke or deception. This is a life saving mission for Michael and the world or the people that will listen. I know that what Michael is going to bring to us when we hear him again will be so horrific that no one in their right mind will care about it being appropriate to use a dead body, how and who at that point. We will be so thankfull to God and Michael and that he cared enough all these years to allow God to give him this plan.We will only care about what we can do to save our lives and the lives of those we love. I have already seen VERY UGLY things going on in this country, and what the Gov is hiding from us that is life threatening and the means they will go to in covering up what they don’t want known. That is why we are here now, to learn what and how he did this, so that we will be beyond that when he speaks to us again. My biggest concern right now, it that from the view points that I read here, there will be so many that will NOT BELIEVE it is Michael when he returns, they will take up close video shots and try to dissect it with various software and spend so much time trying to disprove it is Michael that they will NEVER hear his message. This will be very sad.<br /><br />So my personal opinion is that while I don’t know who or what was in the ambulance just yet, I know what was NOT. And unless Brian Oxman had total leave of his sense on 6/25 and was completely not thinking or speaking clearly and just totally fumbling all over the place, which I doubt, I know that Michael was NOT IN the ambulance on that day. Because Brian said and I quote, “ I got a call uhh just a little bit BEFORE NOON that Michael had been taken FROM the hospital by Randy’s assistant who gave me that call” I have included the link below with the vid. If you look at him while he is talking , there are no signs of grief and is almost as if he is working very hard to keep from smiling, however the rest of the statement goes on as if all else is as most believe of Michael being gone. Here again we have a play on words, done on purpose to show how deeply deception can be interwoven with just a tad of the truth to twist things totally around and make us believe what they want us to. Just like Jermaine Airport and Hospital. You don’t have that many people with that many slip ups on words.<br /><br /><br />For the non believing it is a perfect scapegoat to say it was a slip and he got the time and wording confused. As for the use of a dead body being wrong of Michael and totally out of the scope. That is child’s play compared to what goes on in this world. I am certain if we believe Michael has a skilled team working with him, they are to ones who devised the details of a body, fake, alive, or ill. It is not for us to judge if it is appropriate or not. Why Michael would have been at the hospital earlier that morning would be sheer speculation on anyone’s part and unnecessary. He had his reasons for whatever he did, some of which we may never know.<br /><br />If we are to investigate this in reality, we have to climb out of our little politically correct powder puff boxed in way of thinking and look at the reality of what takes place in this world daily. PURE UGLY is what is in front of us, deception from satan. This is what Michael is trying to get us to see.<br /><br />Trinity:<br />Thanks Victoria... It seems those of us leaning toward the dead body theory take this FBI involvement very seriously beyond just Hoax. This is life & death. The FBI IS involved.<br />But I'm wondering if maybe the EMT's were NOT in on it during Live Action Day...<br />Or just one was; one undercover? This = "Creditable Deniability" & no Perjury. They simply did their jobs even though the body looked like it had been dead for over an hour, and they didn't recognize who they were working on. They had suspicions, they noted weird things. :? Does it matter? Do your job; don't question the doctor, circumstances or identity of the person. That's not your business. Perhaps it took so long because someone got to them (FBI) to sign documents forbidding them to disclose what went down that day. <br /><br />Re: TIAI April 11<br />Postby navibl » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:33 am <br />I believe Michael’s involvement with the FBI, are with certain one who were of Divine connection, meaning God brought them together. Nothing in this life happens randomly. Everything has already happened, we are just living it out now, hence Michael’s always saying the music was already written, God was just giving it to him now. Because FBI is the Federal Gov and corruption lies at the heart of it, just like CIA, KBG,NASA,NOAA and any other Gov acronym. There has to be certain ones that have Michael’s best interest and heart, and know of the corruption with their own agency. Like I have mentioned before, I believe some could be retired officers with knowledge of how to work the system and know who is at the stem of the deceit in the agency. Like retired NASA officers that have been trying to warn us of thing for several years not, and people laugh them off. Not so for too much longer. Remember there are so many layers to this and the plan has been in the works for years. There are thing this and other world Govs have been hiding from the public while busying themselves to prepare to save their own hides. There are people in Hollywood in the know, they didn’t just make some of these movies to entertain us, they were to make us think. Only problem is Man will not be able to save himself, we know what that is going to take.<br /><br />TS:<br /> ...so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.<br /><br />« Reply #998 on: November 25, 2011, 04:27:46 PM »<br />BeTheChange <br />So...IF there was a sting (7c) and this would affect who or what was in the ambulance (7b), which we know was at Carolwood on June 25th (7a)....then WHO was the target of the sting? Again, I say IF because, at this point, I can't prove whether or not there was a sting...I'm just working on a 'theory'....but IF 7c affects 7b, then the target of the sting could have been in the house. Either that (i.e. the target is someone who was in the house) OR the target is someone who has a 'connection' to someone in the house (i.e. a thwarted murder attempt).We have been going on the assumption that the people who saw the 'body' in house were all in on it....but perhaps we've been wrong in assuming that. <br /><br />THIS COULD BE A REAL POSSIBILITY...<br /><br />« Reply #1006 on: November 25, 2011, 07:43:39 PM »<br />GINAFELICIA <br />No matter how I try to think of the events on 25th , I keep coming back to the corpse theory because:<br /><br />1. keeps the whole LAFD out of it - with the mentioning that paramedic Blunt said he recognized MJ on the spot - so maybe he was taken later into the hoax to create confusion in the scenario - because one paramedic said he didn't recognize MJ at all, the other said he recognized MJ on the spot- well that's confusion (I remember at first the media reported that paramedics didn't recognize Mj at all, the patient looked like an old frail Asian man, ill, so I was surprised at the trial when Blunt said he recognized MJ right away, so I was thinking maybe he was taken in the hoax later, I mean after June 25th, to make it less obvious to the public that it could be something wrong about MJ's death because the paramedics didn't recognize him)<br /><br />2. would explain the overheated room;<br /><br />3. would eliminate the risk of someone accidentally getting a glimpse into the ambulance and seeing nobody there;<br /><br />4. would explain why the paramedics said the patient was dead when they arrived, and also the doctors at UCLA saying the same thing - dead on arrival;<br /><br />5. not 100% sure but it could have fooled UCLA emergency doctors, leaving them out of the hoax, but on the other hand UCLA has to be in the hoax one way or another because they had to be the ones who provided the corpse. So I think UCLA is involved, but not through the emergency doctors. Arnold Klein is linked to UCLA - that's what I know, and I think MJ was in good relations at UCLA with people more in charge than some emergency doctors.<br />Remember it was said he used to watch surgeries there...<br /><br />EXACTLY<br /><br />« Reply #1065 on: November 26, 2011, 02:23:28 AM »<br /> ~Souza~ <br />I am NOT against the corpse theory, and I am fully aware of the fact that they COULD have used one, but I have an unanswered question: WHY a corpse instead of a dummy? <br /><br />THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION; IT'S GOT TO BE STING RELATED.<br /><br />« Reply #1118 on: November 26, 2011, 11:09:45 PM »<br />Im_convincedmjalive <br />I have been here the whole time reading along. I took myself/theory out of this thread for a few reasons. I wanted to see how many people would defend the corpse theory and what they would use as evidence to back it up. For me, I am still convinced a corpse was used and I have provided alot of evidence (not opinion only) to back up my theory. I have repeated my theory in many threads and for the most part I didn't think many were backing me in my theories. I felt like I was just being a parrot so this time around I took myself and my theory out of the equation. I surely can't be the only one who is competent to write a coherent theory for the corpse being used.<br /><br />MANY OF US HAVE OR ARE STILL LEANING THIS WAY; ESP SINCE THAT VIDEO SHOWING SOMETHING DEF WENT INTO UCLA & IT TOOK SO LONG FOR THEM TO BRING THE BODY DOWN FROM CARLWOOD; WAITING FOR THE STAFF TO LEAVE FIRST, HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS. THIS HAS GOT TO BE STING RELATED.<br />[size=12pt]<br />Jermaine said: “He was very, very healthy but Michael was not with us, WAY BEFORE he arrived to the airport. ... I mean way before he arrived to the hospital. ... they were always after him, and he felt that his life was going to be taken.” {}.[/size]<br /><br />SORRY THIS WAS SO LONG... bearhug
MsTrinity333- The comment you posted of mine did not say nobody supported the idea of using a corpse or that this was a sting op. My comment said I didn't feel like many were supporting ME or MY theory. I was referring to level 6 when I was defending the sting theory and corpse theory. I have participated in every level and I have seen/read all the comments made towards the corpse and sting theory but again I was stating I didn't feel that many were supporting me. Just because others have a convo amongst themselves doesn't mean they are supporting me and my theories. To know if someone is supporting your ideas it usually helps if the person writes I agree and has a convo with you directly or if they are against it they ask questions and you know for sure someone is at least reading and taking in the info for consideration.<br /><br />The issue in this thread and why I believe it stalled is because before you posted the comments it appears not many want to accept that a corpse was used or the court has a sting side to it. I believe many are having a hard time with the idea and therefore totally dismissing it.<br /><br />Sooner or later a general consensus must be made to move forward. I don't believe that people who have wrote theories and strong points towards a corpse or sting were just guessing. I believe that after they took everything into consideration the corpse and sting op was the only logical conclusion and therefore when writing about it they believed in it not just guessing.<br /><br />Thanks for adding those comments.
Gina:<br />"I understand your principles but if the above scenario is true - then there was no reason for Murray not to mention to the paramedics giving him propofol."<br /><br />True, but Murray HAD to go to jail (for his own safety). He would have known propofol would be found at autopsy, an autopsy he was even reported request. His stuff ups were deliberate cause no one could stuff up that much by accident imo.<br /><br />
<br />Gina:<br />"I understand your principles but if the above scenario is true - then there was no reason for Murray not to mention to the paramedics giving him propofol."<br /><br />True, but Murray HAD to go to jail (for his own safety). He would have known propofol would be found at autopsy, an autopsy he was even reported request. His stuff ups were deliberate cause no one could stuff up that much by accident imo.<br /><br /><br />
yes but if we agree this is a hoax there had to be no autopsy. Is it possible that a corpse of somebody else than MJ, even stuffed with propofol, would have fooled the coroner? <br /><br />@Misstrinity....looks like the corpse theory has some support here. If we take TS' last posts at face value, what is left is corpse or dummy theory anyway. One of them has to be true.
[size=9pt]To those who believe MJ is alive but not coming back- I truly believe you should have much hope, because IF he's alive - he will be back. That is one thing I've never doubted or feared.[/size]
[size=9pt]Once again, TMZ had the 'inside scoop' before anyone else did. I think there's only a couple possible reasons as to how they would've known beforehand. One reason could be if a deputy somehow spilled the beans. But, I'm not sure if a deputy is even in the room with the jurors...or if one is just posted outside the deliberation room. I guess that's a possibility.[/size][size=9pt]<br /> <br /> But IMO, the more likely reason is because someone on that jury was 'planted'....he/she was the source of the info. Assuming the whole jury wasn't 'in on it'....I think a 'planted' jury member is highly likely cause MJ would want someone on the 'inside' listening in and reporting back. This would've been very easy to do IF both the DA and defense attorneys were 'in on it'...and I believe they were.[/size]
So much toilet talk. Murray went to the bathroom when MJ died. Now TMZ saying the jury went down the toilet. Remember when the Judge said #1 jurist needed to go to the bathroom? In a courtroom session? Wow. Maybe he’s the plant that leaked the verdict to TMZ. He may have influenced the jury to make the guilty verdict as required by the script-writer. Does anyone know who #1 was again?<br /><br /> <br />Gina, you can't say only corpse or dummy theory, when TS has definately supported the person on life support in the past? That is the one that makes the most sense to have the fewest, next to MJ himself. Or as Trinity took us back to the April thread, Souza suggested an assisted suicide person. But I say LIVING up till when Murray goes to the bathroom, returns to find him not breathing.<br /><br />Heartsong
I think the patient was alive when brought to Carolwood ("there was someone else in the room", reported deviance from routine) then Murray administered all the drugs found in the AR including the propofol which killed him. That way all the urine found at the scene, plus the toxicology samples would not have to be falsified by the coroner, neither would any of the evidence found at the scene. All the coroner would have to falsify would be the physical features while overlooking the patients true illness (& name). <br /> <br /> Plus, Murray would not have to address the issues of the stages a dead body goes thru in death (rigor, lividity). Had the person already been dead for a long time it would have been apparent to medical officers (as it was they already suspected time of death was earlier than Murray said. I think it was too, as Murray would have had to make sure the patient had truly passed before making calls. Wouldn't want him being revived!), in which case they would have had to have been brought into the hoax, an undesirable option for many reasons. Plus a live person would have been much easier to get into the house at 1am in the morning (less people involved). I don't think a hospice patient was "bought". Don't forget Michael's affinity to sick people and the love they have for him because of it...<br /> <br /> I think as much as possible had to be "authentic" in the scenario. If it is was possible to introduce the propofol to the system of the patient to ensure it showed up in the report, that is one less thing that needed to be falsified- one less person who needed to know. And a peaceful way for a terminally ill patient to end their suffering.<br /> <br /> Love to you all.
<br />Again, well said for life support patient.<br /><br />[size=9pt]Curls[/size]<br />
[size=9pt]I sense a weariness about you (and others) that I too have this week. I've hardly posted anything because there's nothing to say. I'm tired of reading desperate attempts to find 'clues' - no offense meant to those that do but I don't want or need clues anymore. I don't think we'll ever work out, as a group, team or individually, the details of the hoax - TS has said as much - and they're not even that important to me any more. I'm tired of reading BAM dates that get people's hopes up and never come to anything. I'm pretty sure I know where it's all heading. I know MJ is alive and I'm pretty certain I know what makes him tick. I hope things are going the way he wants. I hope the world wakes up, with or without MJ.[/size]
<br />[size=9pt]We’ve thought this way many times, but it gets in your blood. Why would MJ pull us all into this, if he didn’t want us to stay. TS is reading what we say, and appreciates us putting our heart and soul into our posts. He hasn't given up on us, so why would we give up on him and MJ's hoax. See his posts below:[/size]<br /><br />[size=9pt]TS on [/size][size=8pt]November 28, 2011, 11:35:50 PM[/size]<br />
[size=9pt]Let me share a little secret, about the bitter opposition that I have received for about two years now. If I had never done anything but promote the fun and games aspects of the hoax, you can be sure that the whole hoax world would have been raving about TS for these last two years. The opposition is primarily because I support the serious aspects (Illuminati/NWO, end of the world, etc); humanity generally wants to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and all things will continue fine and dandy. This is precisely the attitude which was prevalent before the flood, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah—and Jesus warned that this would also be the attitude at the end of the world (see Luke 17:26-30).[/size][size=9pt]<br /> <br /> Nevertheless, even though I have received great opposition from many: I have never received any opposition from the hoax insiders (family, TMZ, etc); quite the opposite, both the family and TMZ have supported TS/TIAI on several occasions {including the recent Too Short article,[/size] [size=9pt]http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/[/size][size=9pt];[/size][size=9pt]http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0[/size][size=9pt]}. And this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.[/size][size=9pt]<br /> <br /> I’ve said the following before, but it is worth repeating. This is the only hoax forum that I have ever posted on, and it is also the only hoax forum or website that TMZ ever linked to in their blogroll; this blogroll is no longer on their home page, but it is still on their website and still has a link to our forum on it {[/size][size=9pt]http://www.tmz.com/blogroll[/size][size=9pt]}. For a long time, many have thought that TMZ was just another unreliable tabloid media source—that they have merely been playing with hoax believers, and don’t really have any inside information about the hoax. Well, TS has always supported TMZ; and recently, La Toya also supported TMZ: “But there’s more to the story guys, and Harvey knows that; Harvey Levin knows that (don’t you Harvey).” {[/size][size=9pt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM[/size][size=9pt]}.[/size][size=9pt]<br /> <br /> I could cite many more examples, both from TMZ and the family; however, I have already done that many times in the past, so I only added a couple of newer examples here. But I will close with the following, which sums it up in short. The whole world, INCLUDING HOAX BELIEVERS, need to wake up to the reality of the seriousness of the danger—not for the sake of fear and mind-control, as some people have claimed; but rather for the sake of awareness and preparation: forewarned is forearmed![/size]
<br />[size=9pt]TS on [/size][size=8pt]November 25, 2011, 01:34:11 AM [/size]<br />
[size=9pt]Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.[/size]<br />[size=9pt] Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. [/size] The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life[size=9pt]; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.[/size]<br /> <br /> Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {[size=9pt]http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6[/size][size=9pt]}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.[/size]
<br /><br /><br />Im_convincedMJalive, I appreciate all that you write. We're all in this together!
<br />MsTrinity333- The comment you posted of mine did not say nobody supported the idea of using a corpse or that this was a sting op. My comment said I didn't feel like many were supporting ME or MY theory. I was referring to level 6 when I was defending the sting theory and corpse theory. I have participated in every level and I have seen/read all the comments made towards the corpse and sting theory but again I was stating I didn't feel that many were supporting me. Just because others have a convo amongst themselves doesn't mean they are supporting me and my theories. To know if someone is supporting your ideas it usually helps if the person writes I agree and has a convo with you directly or if they are against it they ask questions and you know for sure someone is at least reading and taking in the info for consideration.<br /><br />The issue in this thread and why I believe it stalled is because before you posted the comments it appears not many want to accept that a corpse was used or the court has a sting side to it. I believe many are having a hard time with the idea and therefore totally dismissing it.<br /><br />Sooner or later a general consensus must be made to move forward. I don't believe that people who have wrote theories and strong points towards a corpse or sting were just guessing. I believe that after they took everything into consideration the corpse and sting op was the only logical conclusion and therefore when writing about it they believed in it not just guessing.<br /><br />Thanks for adding those comments.<br />
<br /><br />Don't feel bad; lots of people's comments & ideas have been ignored or dismissed. I was just trying to support what you & others have said in the past.<br /> bearhug
Gina, you can't say only corpse or dummy theory, when TS has definately supported the person on life support in the past? That is the one that makes the most sense to have the fewest, next to MJ himself. Or as Trinity took us back to the April thread, Souza suggested an assisted suicide person. But I say LIVING up till when Murray goes to the bathroom, returns to find him not breathing.
<br /><br />When I say "corpse" I understand any form of getting that corpse, like person on life support disconnected that day, or any other form of getting a corpse...I don't know, you name it.
[size=9pt]I sense a weariness about you (and others) that I too have this week. I've hardly posted anything because there's nothing to say. I'm tired of reading desperate attempts to find 'clues' - no offense meant to those that do but I don't want or need clues anymore. I don't think we'll ever work out, as a group, team or individually, the details of the hoax - TS has said as much - and they're not even that important to me any more. I'm tired of reading BAM dates that get people's hopes up and never come to anything. I'm pretty sure I know where it's all heading. I know MJ is alive and I'm pretty certain I know what makes him tick. I hope things are going the way he wants. I hope the world wakes up, with or without MJ.[/size]
<br />[size=9pt]We’ve thought this way many times, but it gets in your blood. Why would MJ pull us all into this, if he didn’t want us to stay. TS is reading what we say, and appreciates us putting our heart and soul into our posts. He hasn't given up on us, so why would we give up on him and MJ's hoax. <br />
<br /><br />Just to be clear MJonmind, I'm not going anywhere, or giving up on anyone or anything. I just expressed a weariness and maybe a recent personal change in what my 'heart and soul' want/need from this hoax.
<br />Gina:<br />"I understand your principles but if the above scenario is true - then there was no reason for Murray not to mention to the paramedics giving him propofol."<br /><br />True, but Murray HAD to go to jail (for his own safety). He would have known propofol would be found at autopsy, an autopsy he was even reported request. His stuff ups were deliberate cause no one could stuff up that much by accident imo.<br /><br /><br />
yes but if we agree this is a hoax there had to be no autopsy. Is it possible that a corpse of somebody else than MJ, even stuffed with propofol, would have fooled the coroner? <br /><br />@Misstrinity....looks like the corpse theory has some support here. If we take TS' last posts at face value, what is left is corpse or dummy theory anyway. One of them has to be true.<br />
<br /><br />No, I don't think a corpse would have fooled the coroner therefore I think the coroner had to be brought in on it BUT it had to convince everyone else involved in the process, since there were so many others involved in the report. To me the scenario needed to be kept as close to actuality as possible. IE: An actual dead body with actual toxicology in line with the evidence from the scene and Murrays report to police. <br /><br />Then only small parts would need to be tweaked, only a few people in on it. There is no dummy in this world that could fool all the hands that dummy would have had to go through. If a dummy was used, too many people would have had to be in the know, allowing way too much room for error/discovery. <br /><br />The coroner would only have needed to falsify the physical attributes of the corpse to align them with Michael's physical attributes (vitiligo patterns, scars, tattoos, name etc) and disregard the patients real illness (terminal disease). Everything else was ACTUAL. Actual dead body, actual toxicology.<br /><br />But you need to understand my personal take. I think Murray was put in place to murder MJ. Had Murray's plan run to fruition before he was discovered, we would have had an actual dead MJ. So, run the whole planned scenario through in your head, from Murray's nightly poisoning of MJ to MJ's eventual actual death. That is how it was supposed to go. Then Murray was discovered. But Murray and MJ knew they had to continue with the plot. The world (and the evil ones involved) had to believe MJ was dead. What needed to be put in place to protect MJ yet still achieve the same outcome (the world believing MJ was dead)?<br /><br />Most importantly, they had to replace MJ's body with someone elses. Once that is decided upon what then has to be put in place? Who else needs to be brought in? What appearances need to be upheld, not only to protect Michael but now to protect Murray as well? Carefully step through the scenario. Carefully step through the process of a death investigation. It had to be scripted, with evidence STEERING and FEINTING the outcome in the right direction, like a fencing duel or a flow chart. <br /><br />Murray had to go to jail. To take the rap, to convince the public that MJ was really dead, to be the scapegoat, to take the attention off "others", to redeem himself, to keep himself safe. <br /><br />I used to not like Murray until I heard him say: "I was helping Michael". At first I scoffed then I thought, wait a minute? Parsimony. HE WAS HELPING MICHAEL. <br /><br /> bearhug <br /><br /> <br /><br />
<br />Gina:<br />"I understand your principles but if the above scenario is true - then there was no reason for Murray not to mention to the paramedics giving him propofol."<br /><br />True, but Murray HAD to go to jail (for his own safety). He would have known propofol would be found at autopsy, an autopsy he was even reported request. His stuff ups were deliberate cause no one could stuff up that much by accident imo.<br /><br /><br />
yes but if we agree this is a hoax there had to be no autopsy. Is it possible that a corpse of somebody else than MJ, even stuffed with propofol, would have fooled the coroner? <br /><br />@Misstrinity....looks like the corpse theory has some support here. If we take TS' last posts at face value, what is left is corpse or dummy theory anyway. One of them has to be true.<br />
<br /><br />No, I don't think a corpse would have fooled the coroner therefore I think the coroner had to be brought in on it BUT it had to convince everyone else involved in the process, since there were so many others involved in the report. To me the scenario needed to be kept as close to actuality as possible. IE: An actual dead body with actual toxicology in line with the evidence from the scene and Murrays report to police. <br /><br />Then only small parts would need to be tweaked, only a few people in on it. There is no dummy in this world that could fool all the hands that dummy would have had to go through. If a dummy was used, too many people would have had to be in the know, allowing way too much room for error/discovery. <br /><br />The coroner would only have needed to falsify the physical attributes of the corpse to align them with Michael's physical attributes (vitiligo patterns, scars, tattoos, name etc) and disregard the patients real illness (terminal disease). Everything else was ACTUAL. Actual dead body, actual toxicology.<br /><br />But you need to understand my personal take. I think Murray was put in place to murder MJ. Had Murray's plan run to fruition before he was discovered, we would have had an actual dead MJ. So, run the whole planned scenario through in your head, from Murray's nightly poisoning of MJ to MJ's eventual actual death. That is how it was supposed to go. Then Murray was discovered. But Murray and MJ knew they had to continue with the plot. The world (and the evil ones involved) had to believe MJ was dead. What needed to be put in place to protect MJ yet still achieve the same outcome (the world believing MJ was dead)?<br /><br />Most importantly, they had to replace MJ's body with someone elses. Once that is decided upon what then has to be put in place? Who else needs to be brought in? What appearances need to be upheld, not only to protect Michael but now to protect Murray as well? Carefully step through the scenario. Carefully step through the process of a death investigation. It had to be scripted, with evidence STEERING and FEINTING the outcome in the right direction, like a fencing duel or a flow chart. <br /><br />Murray had to go to jail. To take the rap, to convince the public that MJ was really dead, to be the scapegoat, to take the attention off "others", to redeem himself, to keep himself safe. <br /><br />I used to not like Murray until I heard him say: "I was helping Michael". At first I scoffed then I thought, wait a minute? Parsimony. HE WAS HELPING MICHAEL. <br /><br /> bearhug <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />The coroner is in on it; the report was finalized 09-09-09 TS brought that up a while back.
I do not have problems in accepting that a corpse I use or to there be nothing.. with this I want to say that the forensic this in the hoax.<br />It is good remember the identification of MJ in the hospital. If a John Doe is found and not claimed I believe the body will be identified by dental records if possible. The body supposed to be MJ was ID by Latoya.<br />The autopsy report does talk about his dental work. But only to list it in the autopsy. Not to compare it to MJs dental records.<br /><br />So they didnt use dental work of the body to ID it as MJ. We seem to remember that it was said it was difficult to find a complete record of dental work on MJ, in one page they say the body presents all natural teeth and in another from some record from MJ dental work it says there has been some dental work. Two different things for the same body.<br />The autopsy report specifically says that the body was ID through his driver´s license. On protocol from emergency room patient ID in California it says they use picture ID to identify a patient. The question to ask here is why this was used to ID the body as MJ.<br />
Exactly Paula, why was a driver's license used to ID the "body"? Why no fingerprinting, dental records or DNA (if they had Michael's on record, I don't know). If a corpse was used to "fool" the doctors and coroner, there would have been something scientifically conclusive to ID the body, not a DL pic (which never shows what a person really looks like anyways). Even if there was a corpse and even if it was a double, there would be SOMETHING about the body that screams "NOT MICHAEL!". And then to have the autopsy say that a basically healthy man dies of acute propofol intoxication...the only way any of those "facts" would make sense would be if it really WAS Michael, dead. But we know that isn't the case. Which means these medical professionals were following the hoax script. Which means there was NO NEED for a corpse. Why haul a dead body around if the only people who will come into contact with it, already know that nobody died? Now, I'm not saying definitively that a corpse WASN'T used, BUT, I can't see where the need for one has been justified. And as for the paramedics, their actions, or lack thereof, show they were in on it too.
All we were supposed to determine was who or what went to UCLA in the ambulance on 6/25/09. Not who or what was in the helicopter or the coroner van or had the autopsy done to it or even who or what did Dr. Cooper and her alleged "team" work on.<br /><br />
on 1321002675:
<br />For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?). I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7.
<br /><br />
on 1321002675:
<br />Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court.
<br /><br />who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009<----that's it. Forget helicopter, forget van, forget ER team of doctors, forget coroner, forget autopsy. Everything else is irrelevant, or so it seems based on how TS structured his levels. <br /><br />So if we were to keep in mind the original objective we might not have such an impossible task clearly still ahead of us.
<br />All we were supposed to determine was who or what went to UCLA in the ambulance on 6/25/09. Not who or what was in the helicopter or the coroner van or had the autopsy done to it or even who or what did Dr. Cooper and her alleged "team" work on.<br /><br />
on 1321002675:
<br />For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?). I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7.
<br /><br />
on 1321002675:
<br />Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court.
<br /><br />who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009<----that's it. Forget helicopter, forget van, forget ER team of doctors, forget coroner, forget autopsy. Everything else is irrelevant, or so it seems based on how TS structured his levels. <br /><br />So if we were to keep in mind the original objective we might not have such an impossible task clearly still ahead of us.<br />
<br /><br />Very true bec, but what went to UCLA has to FIT into the picture otherwise it would be impossible to figure out what went there. What went to UCLA is one part of the whole puzzle. I feel we must consider this when making up our minds.<br /><br />I just found this interesting comment from a (lengthy) interview conducted by Harvey Levin with Arnold Klein. I thought about putting it in the "doctors" thread but decided it would be more relevant here:<br /><br />
Levin I want to ask you something. You had told me a story of Sunday that was almost chilling, almost premonition-like, about the last time he visited your office.<br /><br />Klein Yeah. He said goodbye to everyone and I really felt very weird about that.<br /><br />Levin When was this?<br /><br />Klein This was the last time I saw him. I don’t even remember what the date was, because I mean, he was…<br /><br />Levin Roughly.<br /><br />Klein When did he die?<br /><br />Levin The 25th of June.<br /><br />Klein It was about five before that, the last time he came to the office. He went around to everyone in my office and said goodbye.<br /><br />Levin Was that unusual?<br /><br />Klein Yeah, he never does that. He went round, even to the file clerk and, you know, the file clerk, Luis, who’s from Jamaica, almost fainted because he never talked to Michael before. Michael went around to every single person you know. And I have a brother who’s learning-disabled, who’s schizophrenic, you probably don’t know that, and I take care of him and Michael always would come to my house and ask me how my brother was and want to see my brother.
<br /><br />Very true bec, but what went to UCLA has to FIT into the picture otherwise it would be impossible to figure out what went there. What went to UCLA is one part of the whole puzzle. I feel we must consider this when making up our minds.<br /><br />
<br /><br />But one does not equate the other. What went into the ground floor entrance of the ER need not be what came out on the roof. Any connection of these two events is based solely on what the media led the viewer to believe and nothing more. Anything that happened inside that hospital is all hearsay and conjecture. I mean if you really want to get to the cut n dry of the matter... this is TS's level and he defined it as such:<br /><br />
on 1321002675:
<br />Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. <br />
<br /><br />Because if you're going to say you can use the visual information of the body in the helicopter and van loading as a way to determine the prior events (reasoning: what came out is what went in UCLA), then logically the same reasoning applies to Van Video and say MJ himself (or a double) was under that sheet the whole time.<br /><br />Because really, what's the difference?<br /><br />So really, just throw all that stuff past UCLA out and focus only on what went there (presumably from Carrolwood since we determined the ambulance that was there on 6/25/09 went to UCLA).<br /><br />Don't be concerned with what happened once there. Don't be concerned with how to a) hide a dummy b) fool a team of docs c)satisfy features of the autopsy. At least for purposes of the level. TS doesn't even say these things will be addressed anyway. We go straight from this (who or what went to UCLA) to:<br /><br />
on 1321002675:
7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court.
<br /><br />which your guess is as good as mine about what that indicates.
According to this footage, Michael had already been at the hospital for a "couple of hours". There is a strong police presence and while I see people gathered on the other side of the street, this footage does not show a chaotic scene of hordes of people. It appears no one was able to get too close, the cops saw to that. Whoever or whatever was taken to the hospital was being well protected and nobody was sneaking by. No one had heard word of the "death" yet so maybe that's why the crowds weren't there yet? Or they're on the other side of the building? The reporter guy on the scene said he was contacted through someone else, through email, from Elizabeth Taylor's spokesperson saying that Michael was fine and breathing.<br /><br />
<br /><br />Post by PureLove » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:59 pm<br /> Probably a real body had to be used to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. They didn't want the EMTs or coroners or hospital know about the hoax.<br /><br /><br /><br />PureLove wrote:<br />Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.<br /><br />I still go with a dead body was used theory. It doesn't sound sick or impossible to me. And no need to be a magic that FBI did. It's not too hard to find someone died close to that hour and they might have used it to keep as few people as possible on the hoax. Michael didn't need to plan every each of the details, FBI was helping him out about it too. So it could be FBI's choice to use a dead body. And as I wrote before, just a couple of key people in everywhere like the coroner, the hospital etc would be enough to pull the hoax.<br />
<br /><br />Ahhh thank you for posting these posts Trinity. I don't even remember when exactly I wrote these but they're cool. lol And it is good to see myself that I'm still behind the same theory that I wrote at the beginning. I'm just flattering myself a little. Try to bare with me people. geek/<br /><br />
<br /> If a corpse was used to "fool" the doctors and coroner......<br />
<br />I think it is more logical to have a corpse but it is clear and I've said it before and others also said it that it was not needed to fool the coroner.<br /><br />Just paramedics and UCLA.<br /><br />Anyway, lets' say there was a real autopsy on real MJ. We had a few people testifying MJ was in a bad condition days before death/'death", one part of the body cold, the other one warm (!!!), not being able to walk on stairs and so on. But the autopsy says a healthy man died of acute propofol intoxication. Now how could that man be found healthy at the autopsy when people testifyed they had emergency meetting concerning MJ's health days before death?
To work out what happened on june 25 and 'who or what' wnt to UCLA that day seems as impossible as working out how universe was created....however, if it's the task I will try another 'qualified guess'. TS said that it was NOT the ORIGINAL plan that MJ would go to the hospital - let's assume he chose to (had to) go anyway according to changed plans or unforeseen circumstances. A possible scenario would then be that MJ entered the ambulance together with a terminally ill patient who then was left to UCLA, while MJ left in the 'empty' ambulance. From here on there are different thinkable scenarios. <br />
[size=9pt]I just found this interesting comment from a (lengthy) interview conducted by Harvey Levin with Arnold Klein. I thought about putting it in the "doctors" thread but decided it would be more relevant here:[/size]<br />[size=9pt]The whole interview can be found here:[/size][size=9pt] [/size][size=9pt]http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/?blogsub=confirming#subscribe-blog[/size]<br />
<br /><br /><br />Thanks for posting this! I spent about an hour wading/skimming through it. I might have read a shortened version back in 09. Klein is supersmart, a rambler, quite strange, and I'm not sure if he's in or not. He clearly says that Michael was not the same the last weeks before his death, eyes glassy, and needle marks all over his body that he didn't have before. He seems convinced that Murray must have had to have a nurse to find the veins each night because he was a cardiologist not a surgeon. He said he had never met Murray even though he Klein had been over at MJ's for Christmas. He said propofol exhaled would make the doctor sleepy. Klein is a speed talker--could fill tabloids with stuff about people. So is he lying, or was there a double that came to his office the last 6 weeks. I know this was discussed way back. But there's no way someone that knew Michael for 20+ years so well even his physical body, would suddenly be fooled by someone impersonating him. If MJ had a twin, why would he allow himself to be riddled with needles and die by injection of propofol, as that scenario would be. I lean towards Klein being in on the hoax, as is Harvey who is interviewing him here. He's smart enough to keep his story together without contradicting himself or slipping up, no small feat. Easiest match is that MJ really was addicted and died, but we know that didn't happen, so...<br /> /judge/ /scream/
We have not proven that ALL the paramedics are in on it. We do not know if medical staff at UCLA was fiction, it can have happened as well. We are supposed to take things as they would have happened for real, therefore considering this perspective these people cannot all be involved in the hoax and the only way to "fool" them is with a terminally ill patient who would have died that day. That's the only "option" that requires the LEAST people in the know and it doesn't change much of what would have happened if it was all real. The only "thing" you would have to change is the person who "died" finally (considering that a soulless body is a dead person already).
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