<br /> How is a person receiving resuscitation efforts for over 2 hours on the day of June 25, 2009, different from the other circumstances? All of the other situations sound much like the events that unfolded at UCLA on June 25, 2009.<br /><br /> The doctors and paramedics who testified about working on a body, don't exist? Hmmm...<br /><br /> No one is getting bent out of shape, but it seems you are for no reason at all. I'm not sure what part of TS' posts you interpret as 'nothing or MJ went to UCLA'. Again, you nor anyone else have provided evidence against the corpse theory.<br /><br /><br /> The person I referred to as "leading the horse to water", was TS. He did say "I would be handing much of it out on a silver platter", so why complicate things?<br /> <br />
<br /><br />I have pages and weeks and months and years of reasons, I'm sorry you can't remember them all but I'm not going to repeat myself ad infinitum. Do a search on my posts before you disrespect me and say I have no reasons.<br /><br />Beyond the paramedics and the 2 UCLA doc's, people have a problem with any theory other then the real corpse because of mystical, metaphorical, presumed "people" who worked on the body. Not the paramedics and the two Dr's, no they are not the problem, the other people, invariably is brought up. What people? Well people at the ER; the nurses, the assistants, anyone who would have come into contact with "the body", you know, those people. Assumed people. None of these "people" testified or gave a statement or came forward or talked to media or did an interview. Where are they? And since they don't really exist except in the imagination or presumptions, why are they the deciding factor? I call it hearsay, gossip, and the ever-to-be-abhorred ASSumption, and I don't think it's wise to let the entire thing rest upon their metaphorical existance.<br /><br />The illusion doesn't have to be that complicated. Only the media and US (general public) need to be fooled in order for this to work.<br /><br />I think we over think a great deal when it comes to this part. I think in reality it was 100% more simple then this. But whatever. I'm just a death hoax lunatic.<br /><br />Ps. Suzy, if you got the impression those circumstances with resuscitation efforts were the same as the alleged circumstances on 6/25, then please go back and research again, because I found none that were surrounding a situation with a perfectly healthy man suffering cardiac arrest for unknown reasons, being initially attended to for ~1 hour outside of a hospital environment. All of them were patients suffering cardiac arrest for known reasons with known contributing factors within a hospital environment, under very controlled circumstances. (pps. or in the case of one, a child who fell into ice water and was therefore cooled so rapidly that degeneration had no chance to occur prior to medical attention being applied)
<br />In order for a hoax or ANY secret, guarded mission to be accomplished without fail is for AS FEW AS POSSIBLE to be in on it. Some people are going to be involved without even knowing it, but sworn to keep quiet and follow orders less they face consequences. Things that might appear out of the norm is a possibility, however, why is not revealed to them and they are mandated not to ask questions or discuss it. The superiors are the only ones with a need to know agenda. Their staff simply go in, do what is required of them, and get the heck out. No questions asked. That’s the only way something this sensitive will work. The ONLY way.
<br /><br />"In order for a hoax or ANY secret, guarded mission to be accomplished without fail is for AS FEW AS POSSIBLE to be in on it." AGREE (have said 10 times myself), THEREFORE THERE SHOULD BE A BODY, ANYONES who looked like MJ (surgery, disguise, unknown impersonator, etc.) IF NOT MICHAEL himself. Otherwise, this is NOT a hoax per se with serious reasons behind, but A BIG PRANKSTER JOKE WITH NO REASON BUT TO FOOL PEOPLE AND PIONEER NEW TYPE OF LIVE FILM........I DON'T THINK SO. MJ IS NOT A JOKE.
<br /> How is a person receiving resuscitation efforts for over 2 hours on the day of June 25, 2009, different from the other circumstances? All of the other situations sound much like the events that unfolded at UCLA on June 25, 2009.<br /><br /> The doctors and paramedics who testified about working on a body, don't exist? Hmmm...<br /><br /> No one is getting bent out of shape, but it seems you are for no reason at all. I'm not sure what part of TS' posts you interpret as 'nothing or MJ went to UCLA'. Again, you nor anyone else have provided evidence against the corpse theory.<br /><br /><br /> The person I referred to as "leading the horse to water", was TS. He did say "I would be handing much of it out on a silver platter", so why complicate things?<br /> <br />
<br /><br />I have pages and weeks and months and years of reasons, I'm sorry you can't remember them all but I'm not going to repeat myself ad infinitum. Do a search on my posts before you disrespect me and say I have no reasons.<br /><br />Beyond the paramedics and the 2 UCLA doc's, people have a problem with any theory other then the real corpse because of mystical, metaphorical, presumed "people" who worked on the body. Not the paramedics and the two Dr's, no they are not the problem, the other people, invariably is brought up. What people? Well people at the ER; the nurses, the assistants, anyone who would have come into contact with "the body", you know, those people. Assumed people. None of these "people" testified or gave a statement or came forward or talked to media or did an interview. Where are they? And since they don't really exist except in the imagination or presumptions, why are they the deciding factor? I call it hearsay, gossip, and the ever-to-be-abhorred ASSumption, and I don't think it's wise to let the entire thing rest upon their metaphorical existance.<br /><br />The illusion doesn't have to be that complicated. Only the media and US (general public) need to be fooled in order for this to work.<br />
<br /><br />"The illusion doesn't have to be that complicated. Only the media and US (general public) need to be fooled in order for this to work."<br /><br />I think you misunderstood La Toya and took her words directly as if it is an illusion. She meant watching Illusion to get the movie content, not illusion word itself. What people, general public of the US do you tink Michael would FOOL? His fans and not fans? I see you are completely lost in your fantastic imaginations hon. Are we talking about a hoax or illusion. I thought it was hoax with serious problems beyond curtain. That's what we have considered. But you are saying magic, illusion, David Copperfield tricks to fool the world. It's too much. <br />
Cynically speaking, a cardiac arrest is a pretty good reason to not survive a health issue.<br />In a different meaning, cardiac arrest is a very safe way to disappear from life - and be it "only" for a near-death-experience. (We discussed the atropine theory quite a while ago.)<br /><br /><br />Some medical statements:<br />A 15 minute interruption from blood supply will cause a brain to die.<br />So if we discuss how long a flatline / asystole could be existing and still bear the possibility of a "dead man walking again", we have to count minutes if not seconds and not hours. <br /><br /><br />Some statistics about cardiac arrest:<br />California is#3 in ranking of states as to numbers of cardiac arrest deaths (after New York and Florida).<br /><br />According to a study executed in Los Angeles in 2005, survival rate for an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest without any bystander CPR is 1%. Neurologically intact survival is 1.4%<br />The rate of bystander cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) for our population was 28%, for which the overall<br />survival rate was 2.1%. The survival rate for patients with witnessed arrests and bystander CPR was<br />3.2%. Among patients with no bystander CPR, the survival rate was 1.0%.<br /><br />www.paramedicduquebec.org/documents/care-la.pdf<br /><br /><br />It is not a matter of how long CPR is being applied to make a patient survive.<br />It is a matter that CPR is applied immediately and ideally an automated electric defibrillator is being used when the patient is not flatlined.<br />It is a fact that brain damage will start just minutes after blood and oxygen supply have stopped.<br />The chances of survival of a cardiac arrest are down to 10% after 10 minutes.<br /><br /><br />
<br /> [li]More than 295,000 Americans die each year of SCA.[/li]<br /> [li]That's a life every 2 minutes, or nearly 1000 SCA related deaths each day.[/li]<br /> [li]This number is greater than the number of deaths each year from breast cancer, lung cancer, stroke, or AIDS. [/l][/l]
The odds of surviving cardiac arrest after getting CPR in a hospital are slim and have not improved in more than a decade, a big Medicare study concludes. Only about 18 percent of such patients live long enough to leave the hospital, researchers found. Blacks fared worse than whites — a disparity only partly explained by more of them being treated in hospitals that did a poorer job of CPR.
• The life you save with CPR is mostly likely to be a loved one.<br />• Four out of five cardiac arrests happen at home.<br />• Statistically speaking, if called on to administer CPR in an emergency, the life you save is likely to be someone at home: a child, a spouse, a parent or a friend.<br />• African-Americans are almost twice as likely to experience cardiac arrest at home, work or in another public location than Caucasians, and their survival rates are twice as poor as for Caucasians.
"Over the course of three days, out-of-hospital cardiac arrest claims as many lives in the U.S. as the September 11 attacks," Dr. Ewy said. <br /> "[...] If we can get more people to act, more patients who were on the brink of death will be walking out of the hospital neurologically intact."
According to the American Heart Association, only about 5% of people experiencing cardiac arrest with no immediate intervention survive the trip to the hospital.
While the heart is asystolic, there is no blood flow to the brain unless CPR or internal cardiac massage (when the chest is opened and the heart is manually compressed) is performed, and even then it is a small amount. After many emergency treatments have been applied but the heart is still unresponsive, it is time to consider pronouncing the patient dead. Even in the rare case that a rhythm reappears, if asystole has persisted for fifteen minutes or more the brain will have been deprived of oxygen long enough to cause brain death.
<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole<br /><br /><br />This is what needs to be done when a CA occurs:<br />(flatline / asystole: no defibrillator / not shockable)<br /><br /><br />Some stories about bringing SCA patients back to life:<br /><br />
Amy Moore went into cardiac arrest on September 14 and was pronounced dead, but was later brought back to life by doctors. The 38-year-old mother says she has since slowed down a bit to enjoy the simple things in life -- like coloring with her children, Lexi and Chase, and going to her son's little league game with her husband.<br /> "We were always on the go," Moore said. "It's crazy; I can't believe that I almost lost that, that quick, with no warning."<br /> Moore says she doesn't remember the day she, without warning, collapsed at work after suffering sudden cardiac death. <br /> Her heart stopped beating for at least 15 minutes before she was revived and eventually flown to UNC Hospitals.<br /> "Everything that I know is hearsay from everybody I know," Moore said. "The pictures of me with the tubes and everything, it's hard for me to believe."<br /> <br />A quick response from paramedics gave her a chance to live and UNC doctors induced hypothermia, hoping to minimize the damage to her brain. "When they tell me I was frozen and how long I was frozen, and then they had to thaw me out, I didn't even know that that kind of stuff was possible," Moore said.
Bec, would you like to point me to what I have said that is "disrespectful"? Because I don't think I said anything of the sort, but I'm sorry you took it that way.<br /><br /> I don't think you are completely understanding much of the information we have been given. I don't need to re-read a theory you endlessly reiterate without any supporting evidence again. Everything supporting what you want to believe has been debunked, so where is the supporting evidence? You are also avoiding the attempt at trying to debunk the corpse theory, with EVIDENCE. So, can I suggest you read this thread again, and take into consideration the SERIOUS reasons for this "Illusion"? Or is that a hoax to you? You seem to ignore evidence and facts behind this hoax that don't fit in to what you want to believe. <br /><br /> And how are the doctors not a "problem"? There is no proof they know anything about the hoax, so the body would have fooled them too, along with what TS said would be "ALL of the UCLA staff". Where is the proof the hospital was empty and staff were not around? People in the hospital that day who have proof they were there, can testify to the fact that there were many people inside the hospital that day close to where MJ would have been taken. <br /><br /> Again, you are over complicating things. The details of those other events with flatlined patients don't matter (how they developed cardiac arrest or when CPR was applied etc.); only the part where a person who has flatlined (or considered D.O.A.) and received hours of resuscitation efforts performed on them is the important part. That is what is said to have happened on June 25, and that is what you keep brushing off as "what they wouldn't do" because they wouldn't work on dead person for that long. Clearly, they would and they have depending on what "dead" means to you; in this case *after they have flatlined* is the point.
Grace, if a corpse was used obviously when CPR etc., was applied wouldn't make a difference. The patient was dead and paramedics considered them to be D.O.A.
<br />@bec you believe people who didn't testify don't exist?<br />For example that Brad paramedic, or Goodwin - they don't exist?<br /><br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />The point is there are direct witness statements, second hand information, and contrived assumptions. This debate is hung up on the concern that metaphorical people (people who exist only in the land of logical assumptions) would have contact with a body, IF things went as those who made statements attest, and SOMETHING must exist to satisfy THOSE PEOPLE.<br /><br />If we throw out what we are told and only go with what we know, there is no need for a body, dead or otherwise. It doesn't have to be that complicated. Everyone is jumping to conclusions or taking people's word for things. We almost have to assume Dr. Cooper and Nyugen are in on it, yes? The paramedics too? At least two of them certainly. Then why do we assume that their statements are accurate and why wouldn't they just be scripted? Who says anything at all got worked on in the ER that day? We are assuming something got worked on in the ER that day simply because the ambulance went from Carrolwood to UCLA and that's what "they" say. And after we assume that, then we say that there HAD to be a corpse just to satisfy that ASSUMED ASPECT of the story. You follow me?<br /><br />The photo is fake, it was staged within ambulance 71 prior to 6/25/09. That means the paramedics are in on it. Once the paramedics are in on it that means that Ambulance 71 and the LAFD are in on it, at least a higher up who's handing down the authority (MJ had access to their ambulance in order to stage a "death" photograph in advance). Once you have LAFD cooperating, why is it so difficult to accept that the same is true at UCLA? It is a domino effect and this is where the FBI comes in. The LAFD and firehouse 71 aren't going to just agree to help out MJ on some secret hoax mission. No way, right? They had to receive clearance from a higher authority. That higher authority IS the FBI. Once you have the FBI handing down orders and clearance, there's really nothing that can't be accomplished.<br /><br />The only people who NEEDED to be fooled (who wouldn't be satisfied with an aspect of "just following orders") is the media and through them, the general public. That's the goal, fool the media who will in turn fool the public. They (we) are the subjects of the hoax. The SHOW on 6/25/09 was designed to fool US, and us alone.<br /><br />All Cooper and Nyugen have to tell their regular staff (and really just Cooper, Nyugen said she was called in to consult n assist, that doesn't require her full staff to attend, Cooper's staff would presumably be already in attendance, perfectly acceptable situation for Nyugen's staff to accept) is that they were called in to attend a high profile VIP that required a decoy or equivalent and they are not authorized to divulge details. Period. No explanation as to why her regulars weren't called in, nothing else required an explanation.<br /><br />Everyone at any job is familiar with the Need To Know basis and when they aren't in the Need category they butt out. It's a professional environment. You don't ask questions because it isn't your job to know or care unless your supervisor assigns you to know or care. <br /><br />I think the assumptions of the details are getting, and have been getting carried away into a string of assumptions built one on top of the other into an assumptive chain that is now standing in the way of that which was our assigned task of determining who or what went to UCLA from Carrolwood in the ambulance on 6/25/09.<br /><br />What happened inside UCLA is completely irrelevant to who or what arrived there in the ambulance from Carrolwood on 6/25/09 because it is all based on witness testimony (notoriously unreliable) and contrived assumptions based on such. The only FACTS are 1) that an ambulance traveled from Carrolwood and arrived at UCLA, and 2) a sheet covered body shape on a stretcher emerged from the roof that afternoon and was loaded into a helicopter.
<br /> Bec, would you like to point me to what I have said that is "disrespectful"? Because I don't think I said anything of the sort, but I'm sorry you took it that way.<br /><br /> I don't think you are completely understanding much of the information we have been given. I don't need to re-read a theory you endlessly reiterate without any supporting evidence again. Everything supporting what you want to believe has been debunked, so where is the supporting evidence? You are also avoiding the attempt at trying to debunk the corpse theory, with EVIDENCE. So, can I suggest you read this thread again, and take into consideration the SERIOUS reasons for this "Illusion"? Or is that a hoax to you? You seem to ignore evidence and facts behind this hoax that don't fit in to what you want to believe. <br /><br /> And how are the doctors not a "problem"? There is no proof they know anything about the hoax, so the body would have fooled them too, along with what TS said would be "ALL of the UCLA staff". Where is the proof the hospital was empty and staff were not around? People in the hospital that day who have proof they were there, can testify to the fact that there were many people inside the hospital that day close to where MJ would have been taken. <br /><br /> Again, you are over complicating things. The details of those other events with flatlined patients don't matter (how they developed cardiac arrest or when CPR was applied etc.); only the part where a person who has flatlined (or considered D.O.A.) and received hours of resuscitation efforts performed on them is the important part. That is what is said to have happened on June 25, and that is what you keep brushing off as "what they wouldn't do" because they wouldn't work on dead person for that long. Clearly, they would and they have depending on what "dead" means to you; in this case *after they have flatlined* is the point. <br />
<br /><br />Yup, you're right. I'm a delusional idiot. Sorry to junk up your cyberspace. I'll concede the debate to your superior intellect and investigative skills, Suzy7.
Can anyone come up with the longest time that UCLA has worked a flat-lined patient, before calling the death?
<br /><br />I'm pretty sure that IF a corpse was used in this, they wouldn't want to have brought back to life a dead person they are trying to pass off as Michael Jackson......not a good look. The corpse would have needed to be dead long enough not to be resuscitated.<br /><br />The question is: was this question a hint from TS to a corpse being used? or a hint that a corpse was not used? <br /><br /> smiley_spider<br /><br /><br /><br />
<br />So why did TS ask this question ? <br /><br />
Can anyone come up with the longest time that UCLA has worked a flat-lined patient, before calling the death?
<br /><br />I'm pretty sure that IF a corpse was used in this, they wouldn't want to have brought back to life a dead person they are trying to pass off as Michael Jackson......not a good look. The corpse would have needed to be dead long enough not be resuscitated.<br /><br />The question is: was this question a hint from TS to a corpse being used? or a hint that a corpse was not used? <br /><br /> smiley_spider<br /><br />
<br /><br />Doctors would probably start working on a patient with an ECG flatline, but probably not on a patient with a EEG flatline (braindead person). So a corpse or a person who had been on life support would not fool the doctors I guess....so I don´t really believe that a braindead human being was "used". <br />Of course I don´t know if my assumption is correct against the background of medical science. <br />Maybe somebody working in the medical field can comment on that?
@ grace, just want to say i love your posts. your posts have great subtance. i love them. logical and well thought and written. just want to let you know.<br /><br /><br />@ scoprion. i get what you are saying abt the movie title v's content that latoya made reference to. but prior to that she also actually said "its all illusions"<br /><br />
Bec, where did I say or insinuate I had superior intellect? That is an assumption, just like you saying "you're right, I'm a delusional idiot", where did I say anything close to that in order for me to be "right"? But thanks for the sarcasm, it's appreciated. You again avoided providing evidence for or against the corpse theory or your own. And for the millionth time, the doctors have no evidence suggesting they know anything, so no we don't have to assume they're "in on it".<br /><br />Adi, exactly my point. If we take all of the evidence into consideration, the corpse theory would answer that question as to what direction the hint was pointing in. The general consensus in this thread also points to the same theory. <br /><br />But I guess everyone could be in on it, and nothing was used at all because this is just a hoax for entertainment. So perhaps that's the answer. *eye roll*
MaryK, the patient was considered dead by the time they arrived at the hospital. Dr. Cooper said she had pronounced him (MJ) dead twice; once on the phone with paramedics at 12:57 pm and again at 2:26 pm after Dr. Murray insisted they take MJ to the hospital for further treatment. She also stated during testimony, "Mr. Jackson died long before he became a patient."
<br /><br /><br />"The photo is fake, it was staged within ambulance 71 prior to 6/25/09. That means the paramedics are in on it".
<br /><br />NO, BEC, YOU ARE MISTAKEN THAT FAKE PHOTO MEANS PARAMEDICS/AMB. 71 FIRE DEPT. CERTAINLY ARE ON IT. <br />FAKE PHOTO CLEARLY AND SIMPLY CAN ALSO MEAN BEN EVASTAD WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL IN TAKING A PICTURE AND HE MADE UP ONE THROUGH PHOTOSHOP TO SELL IT. REMEMBER HE SAID" WHEREVER MICHAEL IS, THERE IS A MONEY TO MAKE". OF COURSE HE WILL NEVER ADMIT THAT HE FOOLED MEDIA AND SOLD PHOTOSHOPPED FOOTAGE.
@Suzy, I'm not accusing you of anything. I am saying those things seriously. I feel quite like a lunatic these days.<br /><br />@Scorpionchick: how do you figure Ben got access to the interior of ambulance 71 and some paramedics to stage such a pic on his own within hours after the actual event took place? It is the same interior as the real ambulance 71 yet the monitor is not on in the pic when it is clearly on in the video. So not even the background was captured live by Ben. He had to have created the entire pic in Photoshop, that means he needed a pic of the interior of ambulance 71, 2 men dressed as Paramedics with authentic badges, and a pic of MJ from the exact perfect angle, and a layer of the exact background outside Carrolwood including the red car that was present to put it all together and he had only hours to do it all in. The pic was sold to the magazine on 6/25/09 so how did he work so fast?
Just a short note ...<br /><br />Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.<br /><br /> typing/
<br />Just a short note ...<br /><br />Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.<br /><br /> typing/<br /><br /><br />
<br /><br /> bow/ Hallelujah! <br /><br />This place was coming apart at the seams. <br /><br />Glad to see you are well TS <br /><br />We'll keep the light on for ya'
<br />Just a short note ...<br /><br />Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.<br /><br /> typing/<br />
Welcome back TS ::P It's great to know you're safe and sound.<br /><br />Hmmm...in the middle of an important project huh? Any chance we can get a snippet of it? <br /><br />Looking forward to next week bounce/<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.<br /><br />
Comments
<br /> [li]
http://www.stopcardiacarrest.org/make-a-difference/how-sca-impacts-you<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br />http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31686155/ns/health-heart_health/t/few-survive-cardiac-arrest-even-cpr/<br /><br /><br /> <br />http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAndECC/WhatisCPR/CPRFactsandStats/CPR-%20Statistics_UCM_307542_Article.jsp<br /><br /><br /> <br />http://www.physorg.com/pdf177599075.pdf<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br />http://www.bookofodds.com/Accidents-Death/Articles/A0393-The-Odds-a-Defibrillator-will-Bring-a-Heart-Victim-Back-to-Life<br /><br /><br /> <br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole<br /><br /><br />This is what needs to be done when a CA occurs:<br />(flatline / asystole: no defibrillator / not shockable)<br />