I've begun to look deeper into the 2nd Sign...trying to gain a better understanding of what it all means. I've never read the entire book of Revelation, only parts of it....but have read many interpretations of it which just confuse me even more lol. But I'm trying to understand.<br /><br />The sanctuary....and all the symbolism of the furniture is really interesting to me...as is the whole book of Revelation. I like how TS broke down the 'type' and 'antitype' meanings of it all...it helps me to better understand the 'double' meaning of things as they are spoken of in the past, present and future in Revelation. More importantly, it helps me to understand how it relates to us on a personal level....in order for me to fully grasp something, I need to relate to it in some way...and I do believe that all that TS has shown us (re: the sanctuary and the furniture) DO relate to each of us in the present and future....and is proven by showing the past.<br /><br />One of the first things I've come across in researching the 2nd Sign is a webpage called 'Journey Through the Sanctuary'. It is one person's interpretation of the sanctuary...written as an allegory, in an attempt to show how the doctrine affects us in a personal way (which is what I started my google search with lol....i.e. how does it affect me, what does it mean/symbolize to/for me?). Again, I don't know enough about Revelation or the sanctuary to be able to determine the 'accuracy' of this allegory....but wanted to share it because it brought me a different perspective, as well as a sense of peace and comfort.<br /><br />
<br />Journey Through the Sanctuary <br />by Ulrike<br /><br />Today I would like to take a different approach as I talk about the sanctuary. I want to take you on a journey through it. To me it's like a treasure map to the greatest treasure anyone can ever find.<br /><br />Once I was visiting in a church. The lesson was on the sanctuary and during the discussion the question arose; "when we study with non-Adventists, when should we introduce the sanctuary doctrine?" Someone quickly answered, "That should be left until the very last, tell them about Christ first and the cross and other basics, then, after they are committed, tell them about the sanctuary." Someone else said, "Yes, the sanctuary just scares them away."<br /><br />I was saddened. No wonder there is so much animosity against the sanctuary. Is this really what Adventists think of the most beautiful, Christ centered teaching we have? Don't they realize that it is the sanctuary that takes all the different aspects of salvation and blends them together in a harmonious whole, with everything centered on Christ?<br /><br />So today I'd like to take you on a personal journey through the sanctuary. As we travel, please remember this is an allegory, not a theological exposition. What I want to share is how this doctrine affects us in a very personal way. So let's begin the journey.<br /><br />As we approach the sanctuary, the first thing we see is a white linen fence all around the sanctuary. White linen is symbolic of righteousness. The contrast between the goodness of the sanctuary and the evil of sin all around us is instantly seared into our conscience. Inside is righteousness, outside we have no righteousness, for "we are all as an unclean thing and all our righteousness is as filthy rags. (Is 64:6) As we stand outside that pure white fence in our filthy condition, our hearts sink, it seems hopeless, there is no way we can ever measure up, the way seems closed.<br /><br />But a voice is calling us, "I am the door: by Me if anyone enters in, he shall be saved." We look in the direction of the voice and see the gate. It is open. At the gate, Jesus is standing, His arms outstretched, calling to us. Now we have a decision to make. Do we want to stay outside in our sins, or do we want to answer that call. As long as we stay outside that door, we are "without Christ, having no hope, and without God in the world." (Eph. 2:12).<br /><br />We decide to respond. We approach the gate and open our hearts and minds to Jesus. He welcomes us with open arms, yet as we look at Him, our own sinfulness becomes even more apparent and we exclaim, "O wretched person that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death? (Romans 7:24) Gently Jesus leads us to the first station in the court yard of the sanctuary. Here we see a large brazen alter on which sacrifices are offered. Beside the alter stands an innocent little lamb. We hear the words, "Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sins of the world." Suddenly we realize this isn't just a lamb, this is Jesus Himself, our Creator, our God, standing there. He is the sacrifice. "Come," Jesus calls, "Place your hands upon my head and confess your sins." Trembling we place our hands on the head of Him who has never cherished an evil thought, and confess all our dark imaginings, we look in the face that has only love and goodness, and confess all our hate and evil. We acknowledge specific sins and shortcomings, knowing that He has never sinned. And as our attention is drawn to the cross to see what our sins did to Jesus, something happens inside. All our pride and selfishness is stripped bare, and we ask, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice?" Suddenly the horror of sin is revealed to us. Those little sins that we thought we had a right to hang on to don't look so innocent anymore, and we experience what is know as repentance. Repentance includes sorrow for sin and a turning away from it. True repentance does not happen outside the gate. We may experience regret for the consequences of sin while outside, we may even change our lifestyle, but only as we contemplate the cross in the presence of Jesus can we experience true repentance, which is so necessary to the Christian life. As we see what our sins did to Jesus and how He took our punishment because He loved us, we will begin to gate our sinfulness and long for Christ's righteousness. Gladly we surrender all our cherished idols--everything that stands between us and Christ we place on the alter and even more, we give ourselves to Jesus by the mercies of God, we present our bodies a living sacrifice, holy , acceptable unto God. (Romans 12:2)<br /><br />At the alter we are forgiven, the penalty of our sins was paid by the Lamb of God. We experience peace that we never thought possible before. Yet our journey has only begun. Jesus lovingly guides us to the next station. Now we see a huge bowl of water, called the laver. Here the priests washed their hands and feet before entering the Holy Place. So we too, before we enter the sanctuary, will be washed. Baptism is a symbol of this cleansing. Baptism means dying to the old way of life and being reborn in Christ. At the laver, we give up self rule and self righteousness, we choose Jesus as King and Lord of our lives. This cleansing was made possible by Christ's death, and He is anxious to take our sin stained garments and cloth us with the white robes of His righteousness. This spotless robe of righteousness doesn't cover our sins, it takes the place of the old filthy garments. Now we are clean, we are holy, through the agencies of "blood and water" we are forgiven and cleansed.<br /><br />So far our journey has been only in the outer court of the ancient sanctuary. In the heavenly sanctuary there is no outer court. The alter and the laver meet their fulfilment on earth, in the cross. It was on earth that Christ died for all and became the living laver, "a fountain opened for sin and for uncleanness." (Zech. 13:1)<br /><br />The outer court activities were a daily occurrence, likewise we also need a daily experience. Jesus said, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me." (Luke 9:23) And Paul states, "I die daily." (1 Cor. 15:31) "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives in me." (Gal. 2:20) Of course this does not mean daily baptism. It means daily commitment.<br /><br />Now we are ready to enter the sanctuary itself. As we go into the Holy Place we are introduced to the key elements of living a Christian life. We see the table of shewbread, which symbolizes Jesus the Bread of Life. We see the golden candle stick, which symbolizes, Jesus the light of the world. We see the altar of incense, which symbolized Jesus intercessory prayers.<br /><br />Everywhere we see Jesus. For being in God's sanctuary means abiding with Jesus. There is no other way to live the Christian life. "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me" (John 15:4) The three articles of furniture in this apartment symbolize the essential elements in this abiding, sanctifying experience.<br /><br />We go to the table of shewbread, here we spend time with Jesus studying His Word. "Sanctify them through Thy truth, Thy Word is truth." (John 17:17) If we want victories over sin, if we want Christ's power and strength, we must feed daily from the Word — the Bible. We need to fill our minds and thoughts with the words of God. The more we study and think about heavenly themes, the more our faith and love for Christ will grow, and the more our lives will reflect His character.<br /><br />Notice something special about the shewbread, every Sabbath the bread was replaced with new loaves. This depicts the Sabbath experence, for though we feed upon the bread all week, on Sabbath we gain a fresh new supply as we spend the day with our Lord in a special way. Interestingly the manna did not fall on Sabbath, but the shewbread was renewed each Sabbath. This stresses that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from God. Upon the Sabbath the focus is not on physical bread, on Sabbath we seek a fresh, new supply of spiritual bread from our Lord and Savior in His Holy Word.<br /><br />From the table of shewbread we move to the altar of incense. The altar of prayer. Prayer is described by one author as a key that unlocks heavens storehouse, where are treasured the boundless resources of Omnipotence. We need to use this key regularly in order to live the Christian life. During prayer we are to open our hearts to God as to a friend. When we pray we are in conversation with God Himself, we are drawn into a close, intimate relationship with Him.<br /><br />In the earthly sanctuary it was the priest who offered the incense upon this altar and so it is no — Jesus takes our imperfect prayers and mixes them with His merits and presents them to God as sweet smelling incense.<br /><br />Now there is one more step in the Holy Place. One more important aspect in the journey of sanctification. As we move toward this station we are surrounded by beautiful light. Our whole life begins to shine from the light of this candlestick. Before us stands the seven branched candlestick, each branch has a beautifully designed bowl at the top which contains olive oil. This candlestick represents Christ, "the Light of the World". The oil is the Holy Spirit, the source of power.<br /><br />The purpose of the candlestick is to give light, so it should be our purpose as Christ's followers to let our light shine in this world of moral and spiritual darkness. Jesus said, "You are the light of the world . . . Let your light so shine before that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven (Matt. 5:14,15) We are Christ's lights on this earth. As we spend time in the Holy Place with Jesus, our lives and characters will be changed and we will reflect the light shining on us from Christ. You know, we tend to get so hung up on this work/faith thing. If we would just follow the map it would be so clear. If we place works at the beginning of the journey, before we go through any of the stations, works is totally useless, any works are only an outward act that has no bearing whatsoever on our salvation. If we place works with the brazen altar or the laver, it makes works a means of gaining salvation and we can never earn our salvation. It is only after we have surrendered our hearts and lives to Christ, been forgiven and cleansed, and begun our walk with Christ in the Holy Place, that works come into the picture. As we dwell with Christ, we are filled with the thoughts of God and the purposes of God. We long to bring glory to God. Now our works are motivated by our desire to honor God and to give people around us the right concept of God. Our works show whether we are abiding in Christ or whether we are walking on our own. <br /><br />It is so easy to start walking on our own again. We know Satan's strategies well enough. He tries to pull us out of the sanctuary. Get us too busy too pray, too busy to study God's word. He tries to engross our minds with anything as long as it keeps us out of God's sanctuary. And before we know what has happened, our light has dimmed, we find ourselves back in sinful patterns of living. We may still be trying to keep up the appearances or "form of godliness", but now works are merely legalistic acts, not light shining from Christ's golden candlestick through our lives. We find ourselves out of God's sanctuary, not because God threw us out for misbehavior, but because we neglected to abide in Christ. We chose not to live in the Holy Place when we chose not to pray, not to study. What do we do now? There's only one thing. Start at the beginning of the journey once more. Come to Christ just as you are, confess, and repent at the altar of sacrifice, seek cleansing, claim once again Christ's spotless robe as you surrender your own robes of self-righteousness and sin. Then walk with Jesus in the Holy Place once again. He will restore His peace and assurance of salvation to you and your life will once again shine for Him. <br /><br />Now we come to the last part of the journey. "The Most Holy" Here is where we face the holy law of God. Here it is determined if we can live in God's Holy Presence. As we approach, the glory, purity and holiness in this room is overwhelming. Sin in this room is like flammable material and cannot endure. At first we think we cannot enter and live. For Hebrews 12.29 says, "Our God is a consuming fire." Anyone who dares enter in their sin laden condition will be consumed. <br />But Jesus takes us by the hand and says,"Come, you are clothed with my righteousness, all your sins are confessed and covered with my blood, you have chosen to be my follower, we have walked together enjoying each other's fellowship, now I want to legally instate you as my brother — my sister — now you will receive your legal title to heaven. <br /><br />As God looks at us, He doesn't see filthy rags of self righteousness and sin — they have been forsaken and burned at the altar of sacrifice, He doesn't see our sins — they have been confessed and covered with Christ's blood, He doesn't see our shame for we have been washed and covered with Christ's spotless robe of righteousness, He doesn't see a rebellious heart, that has been replaced by a new heart, eager to do God's will. <br /><br />Christ then pronounces the verdict: "You have walked with me through the sanctuary, now you will be granted the privilege of walking with Me throughout eternity.(Rev. 14:4 para.) "Your name is written in the book of Life. (Rev. 3:5) Come, ye blessed, enter the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 25:35) <br /><br />The above journey is all BY FAITH. Some have mocked us asking if we "literally" walk through the heavenly sanctuary-- NO it's by faith in Christ, BUT THE NEXT EVENT is totally literal, for Jesus will literally come and literally take us home to a literal heaven, and we will be with HIM forever!<br /><br />Dear friends, the above is an allegory of what the sanctuary means to me. For me it's not enough to talk about the subject only in theological terms, I need to know how it applies to my daily walk with God. In my studies I have found the sanctuary to be rich in symbolism which helps me understand better what Christ wants to do in my life. As I study the symbolism, the purposes of Christ in saving humanity from their sin — not in their sin -- comes clear. The investigative judgment is part of the whole picture. This study was not meant to be an exposition of how Levitical ceremonies match with the book of Hebrews etc. It is a personal study of the symbolism of the sanctuary as it relates to the personal life. <br />
<br />http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/journey.html<br /><br />Another site I'm currently looking at (but too soon to comment on)...is one that also divides the book of Revelation into 7 divisions. I think they are dividing it differently than TS has...but they, too, see it as a division of 7. For anyone interested, here's the link to that (some interesting stuff presented) http://www.thefinalword.co.za/The_Final_Word/Protocol.htm.<br /><br />@Sim...LOVED your post with the breakdown of what you still believe! /bravo/<br /><br />Happy researching everyone!<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.<br />
I'm just wondering if any of my JW sisters are still here. I'm rarely here and with the hoax revolving in researching Michael being the archangel, our initial investigating of the hoax, for me has vanished into a bible study group. GREAT for the rest of you, and I DO realize there is more to the site than that..but it does revolve around TS posts. I still pop in and out..but have begun to lose interest. NOT in Michael and the hoax, but I need to either wait this all out, or find a place that is back to more of the basics and not ...well, you know.<br />LOVE to you all, I'm not leaving, just need something else from all of this...
Considering there was zero (0) interaction or feedback with/from TS following Sign #1, it looks to me like the Signs are less for instruction and more for simple exploration.<br /><br />Like an extracurricular activity of sorts?<br /><br />As in, what I'm gathering from this is there's no key point or fact or premise we are to gain by reading the Signs, rather it's just important that we experience this portion, no matter how passively. The knowledge is in the journey rather then to be gained at the destination.<br /><br />TS, of course, feel free to correct me if that is not the case.
http://thejamcafe-mjtpmagazine.com/issue/occupy-michael-jackson/article/worshiping-michael-jackson<br /><br />I loved this article by Linda Higgins along with her quote at the start......It's not about deifying him. It's about loving him.....unconditionally.<br />and we do Michael. <br />She goes on to say that if even a fraction of the people whose lives he touched would unite and live from that vision of love, we could be that 11% that transform the world.<br /><br />Sound like an Army of LOVE to me. :-*
Part of the Sign#2 post reminds me of a thread I had started back in January, after stumbling upon some videos on youtube, about strange sounds being heard coming from the sky. (This thread - http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=22019.msg385308#msg385308 - you can hear the noises best in the first video)<br /><br />Here's the part of TS's latest post those noises remind me of:<br /><br />
7. Incense Altar = Trumpets<br /><br />Type:<br /><br />Numbers 10:10, “… in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets …” (see Psalm 81:3,4).<br /><br />Leviticus 23:24, “Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.” (see Numbers 29:1).<br /><br />Antitype:<br /><br />Revelation 8:2,3, “And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar … the golden altar which was before the throne.” (see 9:13).<br /><br />Furniture:<br /><br />The golden altar is the altar of incense; and it is precisely this article of furniture, which Revelation parallels with the antitypical trumpets. Trumpets were used in Bible times to make an important announcement, often a warning or an alarm. The Feast of Trumpets in the type was an announcement that Yom Kippur was just a few days away; the antitypical trumpets also announce and warn of the approaching day of God.<br /><br />Joel 2:1, “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;” (see Numbers 10:9; Isaiah 58:1).<br /><br />
<br /><br />I don't know if there is a connection here, or if I'm making it too basic or far-reaching. The sounds were reported in January, "the beginning of your months" (whether the beginning of your months has anything to do with January I don't know, and I know Yom Kippur isn't close to January). Even the first video in the thread I posted above, the youtube description says "The trumpets have gone viral". I still don't know what to think of those noises and a proper explanation was never offered, in my opinion. One of my thoughts was a worldwide sound check for Project Blue Beam, which I still won't rule out. Who knows, it could be nothing, just some Earth noises. Or...maybe it could be something bigger (and I'm not talking aliens here). <br /><br />TS, I appreciate the work and effort you've put into offering us truth and the proof of this truth is right out of the Bible, it's hard to argue. What I'm wondering is WHY US (since the info in both Signs had never been published before) and what are we to do with this knowledge? Army of LOVE? Don't get me wrong, I love and value these teachings and I have faith in God and Michael. Ah, I dunno, maybe I have to wait for the other signs to get a better understanding.
BTC, your article written by a SDA mentions the Investigative Judgement (last paragraph) which is a core belief of theirs. It is an Ellen White teaching that came after, when in 1844 their expected rapture did not happen, and so this was then taught as happening in the heavens—God examining each “believing” person’s worthiness, starting with the dead from the beginning of Genesis and then the living. Afterwards would be the judgement of the “nonbelieving”.<br /><br />LilWendy, maybe you could give us some better understanding of this teaching, if I have it wrong? Sorry this site is from a critical perspective.<br />http://truthorfables.com/investigative_judgment_made_simple.htm<br /><br /><br />RK, <br />http://thejamcafe-mjtpmagazine.com/issue/occupy-michael-jackson/article/worshiping-michael-jackson<br />
I said that Michael Jackson has the power to create a critical mass of people who could transform the world. That comment was in response to something I read in Marianne Williamson’s book, A Return to Love. She wrote, “When love reaches a critical mass, when enough people become miracle-minded, the world will experience a radical shift.”
<br />I believe this is going to be like the snow-ball effect. Starting small but growing over this year and next. Or perhaps like V's domino effect.<br /><br /><br />Andrea, good point about the strange sounds around the world starting in January, the same month as TS’s posts about the first of 7 signs. You just never know. smiley_spider <br /><br />About TS's #1 and #2 signs, and their relationship to MJ's hoax and purpose, I really believe this is happening now here and soon all over the world. I have complete faith in Michael's authenticity, regardless of his disguises-- bodily and in user-names. I believe we have been chosen as first receivers, and should not take this privilege lightly. Because of Souza's heart being in the right place. BIG thank you Souza! If it was in the future proven 100% that TS was indeed Michael, think how many would be kicking themselves that they threw these supposedly non-hoax parts away as garbage. I simply don't understand this reluctance to receive what he has to say--again I think there's a veil--it's not yet time.<br /><br />“Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized --In the first it is ridiculed, in the second it is opposed, in the third it is regarded as self-evident”
<br />BTC, your article written by a SDA mentions the Investigative Judgement (last paragraph) which is a core belief of theirs. It is an Ellen White teaching that came after, when in 1844 their expected rapture did not happen, and so this was then taught as happening in the heavens—God examining each “believing” person’s worthiness, starting with the dead from the beginning of Genesis and then the living. Afterwards would be the judgement of the “nonbelieving”.<br /><br />LilWendy, maybe you could give us some better understanding of this teaching, if I have it wrong? Sorry this site is from a critical perspective.<br />http://truthorfables.com/investigative_judgment_made_simple.htm<br />
<br /><br />@MJonmind...The fact that the article was written by a SDA didn't even phase me at all...the message(s) I got from it extended beyond the 'messenger'. But, like you, I'm also interested in learning about different beliefs....even if just as 'side notes'. So, I'm also hoping that LilWendy can shed some light on that as well. I know very little about SDA teachings...and even less about the Investigative Judgement. I know about the supposed 'final judgement'...where God will judge the living and the dead. Is the Investigative Judgement the same thing? <br /><br />If so, then how does this part of the article factor in?<br /><br />
<br />Now we come to the last part of the journey. "The Most Holy" Here is where we face the holy law of God. Here it is determined if we can live in God's Holy Presence. As we approach, the glory, purity and holiness in this room is overwhelming. Sin in this room is like flammable material and cannot endure. At first we think we cannot enter and live. For Hebrews 12.29 says, "Our God is a consuming fire." Anyone who dares enter in their sin laden condition will be consumed. <br />But Jesus takes us by the hand and says,"Come, you are clothed with my righteousness, all your sins are confessed and covered with my blood, you have chosen to be my follower, we have walked together enjoying each other's fellowship, now I want to legally instate you as my brother — my sister — now you will receive your legal title to heaven. <br /><br />As God looks at us, He doesn't see filthy rags of self righteousness and sin — they have been forsaken and burned at the altar of sacrifice, He doesn't see our sins — they have been confessed and covered with Christ's blood, He doesn't see our shame for we have been washed and covered with Christ's spotless robe of righteousness, He doesn't see a rebellious heart, that has been replaced by a new heart, eager to do God's will. <br /><br />Christ then pronounces the verdict: "You have walked with me through the sanctuary, now you will be granted the privilege of walking with Me throughout eternity.(Rev. 14:4 para.) "Your name is written in the book of Life. (Rev. 3:5) Come, ye blessed, enter the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 25:35) <br />
<br /><br />@LilWendy...thanks in advance for any insight you can provide us.<br /><br />
on 1331239254:
<br />About TS's #1 and #2 signs, and their relationship to MJ's hoax and purpose, I really believe this is happening now here and soon all over the world. I have complete faith in Michael's authenticity, regardless of his disguises-- bodily and in user-names. I believe we have been chosen as first receivers, and should not take this privilege lightly. Because of Souza's heart being in the right place. BIG thank you Souza! If it was in the future proven 100% that TS was indeed Michael, think how many would be kicking themselves that they threw these supposedly non-hoax parts away as garbage. I simply don't understand this reluctance to receive what he has to say--again I think there's a veil--it's not yet time.<br />
<br /><br />I agree 100% on everything you wrote ^^^...IMO, everyone should remain open to everything we're presented with cause with Mike, you just never know. That doesn't mean we should just believe it all and not question anything...far from it (and TS has always told us to NOT just take his word as truth); but it does mean that we shouldn't simply dismiss something just because some 'dots' aren't yet fully visible.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.
<br /> If it was in the future proven 100% that TS was indeed Michael, think how many would be kicking themselves that they threw these supposedly non-hoax parts away as garbage. I simply don't understand this reluctance to receive what he has to say--again I think there's a veil--it's not yet time.<br />
<br /><br />I agree 100% on everything you wrote ^^^...IMO, everyone should remain open to everything we're presented with cause with Mike, you just never know. That doesn't mean we should just believe it all and not question anything...far from it (and TS has always told us to NOT just take his word as truth); but it does mean that we shouldn't simply dismiss something just because some 'dots' aren't yet fully visible.<br /><br />With L.O.V.E. always.<br />
<br /><br />And that means being open to opposing views to our own, to ideas that don't immediately sit comfortably with us - and that also means not accepting something just because it might be coming from Michael Jackson!<br /><br />In other words, keep watchin'!
@TS/Michael, I really want to share with you what I believe about the end of the world. This is based on the Qur’an and upon recommendation from a friend I love very much , I thought that it would nice to post this information. People can see it as another theory of the EOW if they do not believe in the Qur'an and in what the numbers reveal.<br /><br />As in the Bible, God tells us in the Qur’an that the world will end one day:<br /><br />14:48<br />"The day will come when this earth will be substituted with a new earth, and also the heavens, and everyone will be brought before God, the One, the Supreme."<br /><br />In Sura 20 verse 15 God is most precise about the EOW, He tells us that He will keep it ALMOST hidden:<br /><br />20:15<br />"The Hour (end of the world) is surely coming; I will keep it almost hidden, for each soul must be paid for its works."<br /><br />This means that God is the Knower of the EOW but that He reveals it at a certain time, it is not supposed to be kept totally secret. This also points to the Signs of the end – each one of them informing us that the end is near. Which can also be considered as keeping the Hour almost hidden.<br /><br />Then there is a very important verse pointing to an important structure of the Qur’an:<br /><br />15:87 "We have given you the seven pairs, and the great Quran."<br /><br />The 7 pairs are the 14 initials (letters) found at the beginning of several suras and their total gematrical value equals 1709 and this number pinpoints to the end of the world.<br /><br />Quranic Initial + Gematrical Value:<br /> <br />1. Q = 100 <br />2. N = 50 <br />3. S = 90 <br />4. H.M. = 48 <br />5. Y.S. = 70 <br />6. T.H. = 14 <br />7. T.S. = 69 <br />8. A.L.M. = 71 <br />9. A.L.R. = 231 <br />10. T.S.M. = 109 <br />11. `A.S.Q. = 230 <br />12. A.L.M.S. = 161 <br />13. A.L.M.R. = 271 <br />14. K.H.Y.`A.S. = 195 <br /><br />Total = 1709 So the world is meant to survive until 1709 (lunar year) which correspond to 2280. So we still have 2280-2012=268 years ahead. <br /><br />I could end it here^^ but here's a bit more information:<br /><br />Sura 15 verse 87 is the one where the 7 pairs are mentioned and what makes these initials relevant to them pointing to the EOW are the verses before:<br /><br />15:85<br />We did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, except for a specific purpose.The end of the world will come, so treat them with benign neglect.<br />15:86<br />Your Lord is the Creator, the Omniscient.<br />15:87<br />We have given you the seven pairs, and the great Quran.<br /><br />These verses following each other aren't a coincidence and this arrangement tells a specific truth. We understand that God has created the Earth and the Heavens, He is the Creator of all and Him knows when it will end (Omniscient), then He tells us that He gave us the seven pairs and this in relation to the EOW in the context of these verses (these initials have another purpose as well).<br /><br />Something else confirms that this (1709) is about a lunar year specifically:<br /><br />The discovery of this information happened in 1400 AH (1980) and: 1709 (initials' gematrical value also a lunar year) -1400 = 309 and 309 corresponds to lunar years. <br /><br />Also, the peculiar way of writing 309 is found in sura 18 verse 25, "Three hundred years, increased by nine", which indicates that the 309 are lunar years:<br /><br />18:25 "They stayed in their cave three hundred years, increased by nine."<br /><br />God mentioned this number in this fashion for a specific reason. The difference between 300 solar years and 300 lunar years is 9 years. Again, the year of this discovery, 1400 AH, coincided with 1980 AD, and 1980 plus 300 solar years is 2280 (year of the End).<br /><br />One last thing. God of all the suras chose the sura 20 verse 15 to tell us that He will keep the knowledge of the end almost hidden and the number 2015 is a composite number which index is 1709.<br /><br />Now what about the end you are talking about you will tell me? Well I believe it has an important signification too. <br /><br /> respect/
Sarahli, is this a mainline Muslim teaching/belief, or a certain off-shoot Muslim group, or just you and your friend? Unfamiliar territory for me. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
on 1331223297:
<br />Considering there was zero (0) interaction or feedback with/from TS following Sign #1, it looks to me like the Signs are less for instruction and more for simple exploration.<br /><br />Like an extracurricular activity of sorts?<br /><br />As in, what I'm gathering from this is there's no key point or fact or premise we are to gain by reading the Signs, rather it's just important that we experience this portion, no matter how passively. The knowledge is in the journey rather then to be gained at the destination.<br /><br />TS, of course, feel free to correct me if that is not the case.<br />
MJonmind, no this is not a main line in traditional muslim teachings. This is something that isn't considered in most of the muslim/islamic world. A minority of people actually believe in this.
<br />MJonmind, no this is not a main line in traditional muslim teachings. This is something that isn't considered in most of the muslim/islamic world. A minority of people actually believe in this.<br />
<br />I do believe that God sent special human beings to earth to make them guide to humanity. And Michael is one of them. I do believe that he is protected by God because he is special and he has a very important mission. This mission is about the end of the world and he is the one who is trying to guide humanity how to fight the evil and save us and the planet. He is the leader, he is the V for Vendetta, he is the Ark of the Covenant, he is the Archangel Michael, he is Michael Joe Jackson. It doesn't matter if you think that he is Ark-Angel or not, it doesn't matter if you think that he is just human or not; he has a very important mission and he needs US in this battle. Are we going to be with him, this is what matters. My answer is YES, I will definitely be on Michael's side, no matter what it takes!<br />
<br />Perfect words, agree with you 100%! and yes, WE WILL BE THERE to support HIM! <br />
<br />@TS/Michael, I really want to share with you what I believe about the end of the world. This is based on the Qur’an and upon recommendation from a friend I love very much , I thought that it would nice to post this information. People can see it as another theory of the EOW if they do not believe in the Qur'an and in what the numbers reveal.<br /><br />As in the Bible, God tells us in the Qur’an that the world will end one day:<br /><br />14:48<br />"The day will come when this earth will be substituted with a new earth, and also the heavens, and everyone will be brought before God, the One, the Supreme."<br /><br />In Sura 20 verse 15 God is most precise about the EOW, He tells us that He will keep it ALMOST hidden:<br /><br />20:15<br />"The Hour (end of the world) is surely coming; I will keep it almost hidden, for each soul must be paid for its works."<br /><br />This means that God is the Knower of the EOW but that He reveals it at a certain time, it is not supposed to be kept totally secret. This also points to the Signs of the end – each one of them informing us that the end is near. Which can also be considered as keeping the Hour almost hidden.<br /><br />Then there is a very important verse pointing to an important structure of the Qur’an:<br /><br />15:87 "We have given you the seven pairs, and the great Quran."<br /><br />The 7 pairs are the 14 initials (letters) found at the beginning of several suras and their total gematrical value equals 1709 and this number pinpoints to the end of the world.<br /><br />Quranic Initial + Gematrical Value:<br /> <br />1. Q = 100 <br />2. N = 50 <br />3. S = 90 <br />4. H.M. = 48 <br />5. Y.S. = 70 <br />6. T.H. = 14 <br />7. T.S. = 69 <br />8. A.L.M. = 71 <br />9. A.L.R. = 231 <br />10. T.S.M. = 109 <br />11. `A.S.Q. = 230 <br />12. A.L.M.S. = 161 <br />13. A.L.M.R. = 271 <br />14. K.H.Y.`A.S. = 195 <br /><br />Total = 1709 So the world is meant to survive until 1709 (lunar year) which correspond to 2280. So we still have 2280-2012=268 years ahead. <br /><br />I could end it here^^ but here's a bit more information:<br /><br />Sura 15 verse 87 is the one where the 7 pairs are mentioned and what makes these initials relevant to them pointing to the EOW are the verses before:<br /><br />15:85<br />We did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, except for a specific purpose.The end of the world will come, so treat them with benign neglect.<br />15:86<br />Your Lord is the Creator, the Omniscient.<br />15:87<br />We have given you the seven pairs, and the great Quran.<br /><br />These verses following each other aren't a coincidence and this arrangement tells a specific truth. We understand that God has created the Earth and the Heavens, He is the Creator of all and Him knows when it will end (Omniscient), then He tells us that He gave us the seven pairs and this in relation to the EOW in the context of these verses (these initials have another purpose as well).<br /><br />Something else confirms that this (1709) is about a lunar year specifically:<br /><br />The discovery of this information happened in 1400 AH (1980) and: 1709 (initials' gematrical value also a lunar year) -1400 = 309 and 309 corresponds to lunar years. <br /><br />Also, the peculiar way of writing 309 is found in sura 18 verse 25, "Three hundred years, increased by nine", which indicates that the 309 are lunar years:<br /><br />18:25 "They stayed in their cave three hundred years, increased by nine."<br /><br />God mentioned this number in this fashion for a specific reason. The difference between 300 solar years and 300 lunar years is 9 years. Again, the year of this discovery, 1400 AH, coincided with 1980 AD, and 1980 plus 300 solar years is 2280 (year of the End).<br /><br />One last thing. God of all the suras chose the sura 20 verse 15 to tell us that He will keep the knowledge of the end almost hidden and the number 2015 is a composite number which index is 1709.<br /><br />Now what about the end you are talking about you will tell me? Well I believe it has an important signification too. <br /><br /> respect/<br />
<br /><br />Where do you get the seven pairs? I have checked a few translations now and all I can find is seven often repeated verses, refering to the 7 verses of Surah Al-Fatiha.<br /><br />By the way: I was surprised to see that the Qur'an says you should keep the Sabbath. I can't remember ever meeting a Sabbath-keeping muslim.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
I would not ask TS to change anything he has planned. He can carry on as he sees fit. <br /><br />I am disappointed he has chosen not to provide any feedback on, or participate in the discussion of Sign #1.<br /><br />
Ok so I am very behind in my studies I have a ton of work to do in the next 3 weeks however I will do my best to read the signs (#1 again and #2 for the first time) and to study. I also briefly saw my name mentioned in the posts so I will provide whatever insight I can. Thanks for being patient with me... just letting you guys know I am here! :-)
<br />I'm just wondering if any of my JW sisters are still here. I'm rarely here and with the hoax revolving in researching Michael being the archangel, our initial investigating of the hoax, for me has vanished into a bible study group. GREAT for the rest of you, and I DO realize there is more to the site than that..but it does revolve around TS posts. I still pop in and out..but have begun to lose interest. NOT in Michael and the hoax, but I need to either wait this all out, or find a place that is back to more of the basics and not ...well, you know.<br />LOVE to you all, I'm not leaving, just need something else from all of this...<br />
<br /><br />Hello Ford, I'm still here Sister, <br />I have the same feelings about Michael being an archangel as you have.<br />But i'm still interested in this development and wants to see where it will lead( but i hope there's going to be a twist.)<br />I agree with those before me who posted that Michael is a rare and lovely person. But he is still a person/human ( "i'm only human"will you be there) and he stays that way for me, nomatter what anyone say.<br />He had the opportunity and the talent and drive to be a huge singer and entertainer, and used his famous influence and money to help others.I have great respect for him on many counts.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
<br />The 7 pairs are the 14 initials (letters) found at the beginning of several suras and their total gematrical value equals 1709 and this number pinpoints to the end of the world.<br /><br />Quranic Initial + Gematrical Value:<br /> <br />1. Q = 100 <br />2. N = 50 <br />3. S = 90 <br />4. H.M. = 48 <br />5. Y.S. = 70 <br />6. T.H. = 14 <br />7. T.S. = 69 <br />8. A.L.M. = 71 <br />9. A.L.R. = 231 <br />10. T.S.M. = 109 <br />11. `A.S.Q. = 230 <br />12. A.L.M.S. = 161 <br />13. A.L.M.R. = 271 <br />14. K.H.Y.`A.S. = 195 <br /><br />
<br /><br />Where do you get the seven pairs? I have checked a few translations now and all I can find is seven often repeated verses, refering to the 7 verses of Surah Al-Fatiha.<br /><br />By the way: I was surprised to see that the Qur'an says you should keep the Sabbath. I can't remember ever meeting a Sabbath-keeping muslim.<br />
<br /><br />Glad you're interested. respect/ I need to say this first: There has been a lot said and done to discredit this finding; and the person who revealed that there was an intricate code in the Qur'an - Rashad Khalifa - has been threatened, defamed and finally assassinated in his Mosque in Tucson, Arizona; you can google it and find all the information and decide for yourself because there is a lot more about all this but I just want to focus on the EOW part as this is the subject we are discussing, I don't want to promote anything else. So this gives you an idea of how these things are received: They are vehemently rejected by most but everyone is free to believe this or not and I do, this is also a matter of faith.<br /><br />The seven pairs are the 14 initials which are the letters that you find at the beginning of several suras, this is not about the first sura with 7 verses. I mentioned them in my post.^^ I give you an example with a sura initialed with letters T.S. (I always find it funny now ):<br /><br />Sure 27: The Ant<br />27 “In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.”<br /> بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ<br />27:1 “T. S. These constitute proofs of the Quran; a profound scripture.”<br />طس تِلْكَ ءايَتُ الْقُرْءانِ وَكِتَابٍ مُبِينٍ<br />...<br /><br />Another:<br /><br />Sura 2: The Heifer<br />2 “In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.”<br />بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ<br />2:1 “A.L.M.”<br />الم<br />2:2 “This scripture is infallible; a beacon for the righteous;”<br />ذَلِكَ الْكِتَبُ لَا رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ<br />...<br /><br />Now even without considering differing translations or whatever attacks and refutation attempts you'll find on the web about this, the fact remains that there are 29 suras which begin with these letters, take any Qur'an you will find them. I am of the belief that God does not do anything at random. They MUST have a meaning. No one ever understood the meaning of these letters since the Qur’an has been revealed, it has puzzled scholars ever since - but it was destined to be unveiled at a later time and God gave the understanding to this person. But as with everything, time will manifest the ultimate proof of the EOW. We have to be prepared anytime.<br /><br />Concerning the Sabbath it actually is abrogated for Muslims, but compulsory for those "who dispute it" until this day -- so it is the Jews and Christians. <br /><br />16:124<br />The Sabbath was decreed only for those who ended up disputing it. Your Lord is the One who will judge them on the Day of Resurrection regarding their disputes.<br /><br />4:154<br />And we raised Mount Sinai above them, as we took their covenant. And we said to them, "Enter the gate humbly." And we said to them, "Do not desecrate the Sabbath."Indeed, we took from them a solemn covenant.<br /><br />4:47<br />O you who received the scripture, you shall believe in what we reveal herein, confirming what you have, before we banish certain faces to exile, or condemn them as we condemned those who desecrated the Sabbath. God's command is done.<br /><br />So the Qur'an is very clear that the Sabbath must be kept holy by Christians & Jews. This is a commandement from God. Muslims have the Friday prayer:<br /><br />62:9<br />O you who believe, when the Congregational Prayer is announced on Friday, you shall hasten to the commemoration of God, and drop all business. This is better for you, if you only knew.<br />
<br />The 7 pairs are the 14 initials (letters) found at the beginning of several suras and their total gematrical value equals 1709 and this number pinpoints to the end of the world.<br /><br />Quranic Initial + Gematrical Value:<br /> <br />1. Q = 100 <br />2. N = 50 <br />3. S = 90 <br />4. H.M. = 48 <br />5. Y.S. = 70 <br />6. T.H. = 14 <br />7. T.S. = 69 <br />8. A.L.M. = 71 <br />9. A.L.R. = 231 <br />10. T.S.M. = 109 <br />11. `A.S.Q. = 230 <br />12. A.L.M.S. = 161 <br />13. A.L.M.R. = 271 <br />14. K.H.Y.`A.S. = 195 <br /><br />
<br /><br />Where do you get the seven pairs? I have checked a few translations now and all I can find is seven often repeated verses, refering to the 7 verses of Surah Al-Fatiha.<br /><br />By the way: I was surprised to see that the Qur'an says you should keep the Sabbath. I can't remember ever meeting a Sabbath-keeping muslim.<br />
<br /><br />Glad you're interested. respect/ I need to say this first: There has been a lot said and done to discredit this finding; and the person who revealed that there was an intricate code in the Qur'an - Rashad Khalifa - has been threatened, defamed and finally assassinated in his Mosque in Tucson, Arizona; you can google it and find all the information and decide for yourself because there is a lot more about all this but I just want to focus on the EOW part as this is the subject we are discussing, I don't want to promote anything else. So this gives you an idea of how these things are received: They are vehemently rejected by most but everyone is free to believe this or not and I do, this is also a matter of faith.<br /><br />The seven pairs are the 14 initials which are the letters that you find at the beginning of several suras, this is not about the first sura with 7 verses. I mentioned them in my post.^^ I give you an example with a sura initialed with letters T.S. (I always find it funny now ):<br /><br />Sure 27: The Ant<br />27 “In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.”<br /> بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ<br />27:1 “T. S. These constitute proofs of the Quran; a profound scripture.”<br />طس تِلْكَ ءايَتُ الْقُرْءانِ وَكِتَابٍ مُبِينٍ<br />...<br /><br />Another:<br /><br />Sura 2: The Heifer<br />2 “In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.”<br />بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ<br />2:1 “A.L.M.”<br />الم<br />2:2 “This scripture is infallible; a beacon for the righteous;”<br />ذَلِكَ الْكِتَبُ لَا رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ<br />...<br /><br />Now even without considering differing translations or whatever attacks and refutation attempts you'll find on the web about this, the fact remains that there are 29 suras which begin with these letters, take any Qur'an you will find them. I am of the belief that God does not do anything at random. They MUST have a meaning. No one ever understood the meaning of these letters since the Qur’an has been revealed, it has puzzled scholars ever since - but it was destined to be unveiled at a later time and God gave the understanding to this person. But as with everything, time will manifest the ultimate proof of the EOW. We have to be prepared anytime.<br /><br />Concerning the Sabbath it actually is abrogated for Muslims, but compulsory for those "who dispute it" until this day -- so it is the Jews and Christians. <br /><br />16:124<br />The Sabbath was decreed only for those who ended up disputing it. Your Lord is the One who will judge them on the Day of Resurrection regarding their disputes.<br /><br />4:154<br />And we raised Mount Sinai above them, as we took their covenant. And we said to them, "Enter the gate humbly." And we said to them, "Do not desecrate the Sabbath."Indeed, we took from them a solemn covenant.<br /><br />4:47<br />O you who received the scripture, you shall believe in what we reveal herein, confirming what you have, before we banish certain faces to exile, or condemn them as we condemned those who desecrated the Sabbath. God's command is done.<br /><br />So the Qur'an is very clear that the Sabbath must be kept holy by Christians & Jews. This is a commandement from God. Muslims have the Friday prayer:<br /><br />62:9<br />O you who believe, when the Congregational Prayer is announced on Friday, you shall hasten to the commemoration of God, and drop all business. This is better for you, if you only knew.<br /><br />
<br />I do believe that God sent special human beings to earth to make them guide to humanity. And Michael is one of them. I do believe that he is protected by God because he is special and he has a very important mission. This mission is about the end of the world and he is the one who is trying to guide humanity how to fight the evil and save us and the planet. He is the leader, he is the V for Vendetta, he is the Ark of the Covenant, he is the Archangel Michael, he is Michael Joe Jackson. It doesn't matter if you think that he is Ark-Angel or not, it doesn't matter if you think that he is just human or not; he has a very important mission and he needs US in this battle. Are we going to be with him, this is what matters. My answer is YES, I will definitely be on Michael's side, no matter what it takes!<br />
<br />You´re so right about Michael and i will be there to support him 100%. bearhug<br />
In all honesty TS, dear TS, I am struggling to understand something of this redirect. I'm trying hard but I am probably very stupid because my today attempts to make sense of it shamefully failed .<br /><br />I mean I don't see the end, the conclusion, what you try to say or prove with this Sign 2.<br />Even if you would be here with me and you would allow me to ask you for explanations I wouldn't know what to ask...that lost I am. :-\<br />
<br />In all honesty TS, dear TS, I am struggling to understand something of this redirect. I'm trying hard but I am probably very stupid because my today attempts to make sense of it shamefully failed .<br /><br />I mean I don't see the end, the conclusion, what you try to say or prove with this Sign 2.<br />Even if you would be here with me and you would allow me to ask you for explanations I wouldn't know what to ask...that lost I am. :-\<br />
@ Souza, I just notice that you were only talking about the translation. I really need sleep. :-[ <br /><br />
<br /><br />The Signs will make more sense when we got them all. <br /><br />"At first, this sign might not seem to be any striking indication that the end of the world is near. However, it lays a very solid foundation for several other things (coming in future signs) ... "<br /><br />http://www.michaelsarmyoflove.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=c54d425d86cbebd1dbe384402a035551&topic=72.msg303;topicseen#new
Comments
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."<br /><br />The Signs will make more sense when we got them all. <br /><br />"At first, this sign might not seem to be any striking indication that the end of the world is near. However, it lays a very solid foundation for several other things (coming in future signs) ... "<br /><br />http://www.michaelsarmyoflove.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=c54d425d86cbebd1dbe384402a035551&topic=72.msg303;topicseen#new