Official back & Front thread

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  • wishingstarwishingstar Posts: 2,927
    on 1357031590:
    <br />The day has come, 1.1.13,  the day I would either be overjoyed, or would be considering how to move forward from here.<br /><br />Of course, this wasn't some date I'd dreamed up on my own as a deadline.  I have been too trusting of others' confident words without the 'evidence' that, in this case, can only come with hindsight.<br /><br />I don't mind telling you it doesn't feel like a 'happy new year' to me.  I have a sad and heavy heart.<br /><br />Front says we should give Michael some space.  Does that mean he'd rather like us all to go away now, leave him alone, let him do his own thing in his own time - have we fulfilled any 'need' or use he may have once had for us?  Have we become a source of irritation?<br /><br />All I know is, for my own sanity, what's left of it, I can't hang around endlessly in this 'waiting room'.  :icon_e_sad:<br />
    <br /><br />Ah curls.....<br />I wish I could give you a big hug right now........I know it's frustrating, maddening, and tries the patience and nerves.<br />I could say the same words as you right now.  However, I just keep having that faith for some reason.....it's <br />unexplainable really.  I do believe though, if all this hoax stuff was just the dream of some demented mad man, and we<br />have been effectively "played"....I can still hold my head up, feel that I did my best, and I truly did learn a few valuable things.  <br />I know it's not what I wanted.  But, if it turns out to be a false hoax....that's funny sounding.....I chose to be OK.  I'll still <br />look at that backing out ambulance though and think....."No way!"  But, until the day comes I am utterly convinced of a <br />"false hoax"......I'll still beLIEve, still wonder....but not wallow, not feel badly.  The world is full of needs, of miracles and beauty.....<br />I'll go in search.  But I can forever say I am changed through this.....some how, some way....per whoever.  <br />So don't feel badly curls...I know it's hurting right now, I feel it too.  But don't give in to it....keep your mind clear and your heart<br />open......love is all around you.  Blessings to you my friend!!!!!  <br /><br /> :bearhug:
  • diggyondiggyon Posts: 1,376
    on 1357031590:
    <br />The day has come, 1.1.13,  the day I would either be overjoyed, or would be considering how to move forward from here.<br /><br />Of course, this wasn't some date I'd dreamed up on my own as a deadline.  I have been too trusting of others' confident words without the 'evidence' that, in this case, can only come with hindsight.<br /><br />I don't mind telling you it doesn't feel like a 'happy new year' to me.  I have a sad and heavy heart.<br /><br />Front says we should give Michael some space.  Does that mean he'd rather like us all to go away now, leave him alone, let him do his own thing in his own time - have we fulfilled any 'need' or use he may have once had for us?  Have we become a source of irritation?<br /><br />All I know is, for my own sanity, what's left of it, I can't hang around endlessly in this 'waiting room'.  :icon_e_sad:<br />
    <br /><br />I totally agree with you. But I guess the journey is not over yet. All you can do right now is keep watching inside the "waiting room". I believe that we  become a "source of irritation" to MJ if we insist on that Bam and go mad if he doesn't, if we digg too deep in his private life to try to find out more hidden secrets. Otherwise, we are a good company here! Don't you agree?  :LolLolLolLol:
  • 2good2btrue2good2btrue Posts: 4,210
    I haven't said much until today.  I sit here most nights, reading all of your posts of inspiration, desperation, hope, fear, joy and disappointment..<br /><br />I feel its time to say how I really feel now....after being a member from 2009...I feel it's only fitting that I share my thoughts, being an ancient member.<br /><br />In my honest opinion, we have been played with for too long.  Front doesn't exist and neither does Back or TS.<br /><br />These are just trolls playing with us all....theres absolutely NO truth in anything they say....<br /><br />When people are at their weakest, they seek opinions and answers...<br /><br />The T.R.U.T.H lies within your own hearts.<br /><br />Trolls love to create drama and have people sucked in...they love it...And we have been played along all this time.<br /><br />We must let go of these so called "insiders" as they are fooling us and loving it.........<br /><br />Whether MJ is alive or not ( and I hope for the fans sake, he is) there is no reason for these sources to give us secret information, that only the FBI are allowed to know.<br /><br />Sorry friends, but I have had enough of these games....Keep waiting until I'm 90!!!  No way.  I have a real life calling me and at least its is REAL.<br /><br />We are the reality show...we, the beLIEvers.  This has become a game to the informers, and I don't believe a word of it now, or ever have....<br /><br />You may call me names, or not even agree with me, but as I type these words on this forum, I wish you all luck and pray that you all find peace............with or without a Bam.<br /><br />Hopefully we all find the truth in our own time too.............Cheers ...2good2btrue  :ghsdf:
  • emulikemulik Posts: 1,009
    on 1357032690:
    <br />
    on 1357031590:
    <br />The day has come, 1.1.13,  the day I would either be overjoyed, or would be considering how to move forward from here.<br /><br />Of course, this wasn't some date I'd dreamed up on my own as a deadline.  I have been too trusting of others' confident words without the 'evidence' that, in this case, can only come with hindsight.<br /><br />I don't mind telling you it doesn't feel like a 'happy new year' to me.  I have a sad and heavy heart.<br /><br />Front says we should give Michael some space.  Does that mean he'd rather like us all to go away now, leave him alone, let him do his own thing in his own time - have we fulfilled any 'need' or use he may have once had for us?  Have we become a source of irritation?<br /><br />All I know is, for my own sanity, what's left of it, I can't hang around endlessly in this 'waiting room'.  :icon_e_sad:<br />
    <br /><br />
    on 1357032595:
    <br />
    on 1357031590:
    <br />The day has come, 1.1.13,  the day I would either be overjoyed, or would be considering how to move forward from here.<br /><br />Of course, this wasn't some date I'd dreamed up on my own as a deadline.  I have been too trusting of others' confident words without the 'evidence' that, in this case, can only come with hindsight.<br /><br />I don't mind telling you it doesn't feel like a 'happy new year' to me.  I have a sad and heavy heart.<br /><br />Front says we should give Michael some space.  Does that mean he'd rather like us all to go away now, leave him alone, let him do his own thing in his own time - have we fulfilled any 'need' or use he may have once had for us?  Have we become a source of irritation?<br /><br />All I know is, for my own sanity, what's left of it, I can't hang around endlessly in this 'waiting room'.  :icon_e_sad:<br />
    <br /><br />Ah curls.....<br />I wish I could give you a big hug right now........I know it's frustrating, maddening, and tries the patience and nerves.<br />I could say the same words as you right now.  However, I just keep having that faith for some reason.....it's <br />unexplainable really.  I do believe though, if all this hoax stuff was just the dream of some demented mad man, and we<br />have been effectively "played"....I can still hold my head up, feel that I did my best, and I truly did learn a few valuable things.  <br />I know it's not what I wanted.  But, if it turns out to be a false hoax....that's funny sounding.....I chose to be OK.  I'll still <br />look at that backing out ambulance though and think....."No way!"  But, until the day comes I am utterly convinced of a <br />"false hoax"......I'll still beLIEve, still wonder....but not wallow, not feel badly.  The world is full of needs, of miracles and beauty.....<br />I'll go in search.  But I can forever say I am changed through this.....some how, some way....per whoever.  <br />So don't feel badly curls...I know it's hurting right now, I feel it too.  But don't give in to it....keep your mind clear and your heart<br />open......love is all around you.  Blessings to you my friend!!!!!  <br /><br /> :bearhug:<br />
    <br /><br />
    on 1357032690:
    <br />
    on 1357031590:
    <br />The day has come, 1.1.13,  the day I would either be overjoyed, or would be considering how to move forward from here.<br /><br />Of course, this wasn't some date I'd dreamed up on my own as a deadline.  I have been too trusting of others' confident words without the 'evidence' that, in this case, can only come with hindsight.<br /><br />I don't mind telling you it doesn't feel like a 'happy new year' to me.  I have a sad and heavy heart.<br /><br />Front says we should give Michael some space.  Does that mean he'd rather like us all to go away now, leave him alone, let him do his own thing in his own time - have we fulfilled any 'need' or use he may have once had for us?  Have we become a source of irritation?<br /><br />All I know is, for my own sanity, what's left of it, I can't hang around endlessly in this 'waiting room'.  :icon_e_sad:<br />
    <br /><br />I totally agree with you. But I guess the journey is not over yet. All you can do right now is keep watching inside the "waiting room". I believe that we  become a "source of irritation" to MJ if we insist on that Bam and go mad if he doesn't, if we digg too deep in his private life to try to find out more hidden secrets. Otherwise, we are a good company here! Don't you agree?  :LolLolLolLol:<br />
    <br /><br />perfectly said! although sometimes it is really hard to stay positive regarding this hoax, I would like to stay here among you till the Day will come! <br /><br />fozdl.jpg
  • marumjjmarumjj Posts: 1,027
    on 1357032994:
    <br />I haven't said much until today.  I sit here most nights, reading all of your posts of inspiration, desperation, hope, fear, joy and disappointment..<br /><br />I feel its time to say how I really feel now....after being a member from 2009...I feel it's only fitting that I share my thoughts, being an ancient member.<br /><br />In my honest opinion, we have been played with for too long.  Front doesn't exist and neither does Back or TS.<br /><br />These are just trolls playing with us all....theres absolutely NO truth in anything they say....<br /><br />When people are at their weakest, they seek opinions and answers...<br /><br />The T.R.U.T.H lies within your own hearts.<br /><br />Trolls love to create drama and have people sucked in...they love it...And we have been played along all this time.<br /><br />We must let go of these so called "insiders" as they are fooling us and loving it.........<br /><br />Whether MJ is alive or not ( and I hope for the fans sake, he is) there is no reason for these sources to give us secret information, that only the FBI are allowed to know.<br /><br />Sorry friends, but I have had enough of these games....Keep waiting until I'm 90!!!  No way.  I have a real life calling me and at least its is REAL.<br /><br />We are the reality show...we, the beLIEvers.  This has become a game to the informers, and I don't believe a word of it now, or ever have....<br /><br />You may call me names, or not even agree with me, but as I type these last words on this forum, I wish you all luck and pray that you all find peace.............<br /><br />God bless you all and hopefully you find the truth in your own time too.............Cheers and goodbye...2good2btrue<br />
    <br /><br /><br />I am deeply saddened 2good your post, I am also very sad and my head is spinning nonsense, looking for a meaning to everything we were told, do not say goodbye  :(
  • AdoreAdore Posts: 44
    To those of you that are sad, I feel for you. I'm sure you'll be fine, though, in time. As for myself, I'm ok because I felt it for some time now that there will be no BAM, so I had no expectations. But I've played the game because it was entertaining. Come to think about it, without informers, real or not, the hoax and the hoax forums would've "died" probably in the first year since the day one (06.25.2009).
  • marumjjmarumjj Posts: 1,027
    and what we do with all we saw so far?<br />if TS is false, has been exposed, but the hoax is real, IMO we should wait and see what happens, but confidence is almost dead.<br /><br />                                                      :bearhug:
  • SimPattyKSimPattyK Posts: 4,281
    OK now in California it's 02:26 a.m.<br />TS said the hoax is planned according to California time zone. And that BAM will be by January 1st. So starting from now, there are still 22 hours.... We'll see...At least TODAY we'll know one way or the other: BAM or no BAM! lol  :icon_lol: :bowdown: :affraid: :icon_bounce:
  • AdoreAdore Posts: 44
    on 1357035755:
    <br />and what we do with all we saw so far?<br />if TS is false, has been exposed, but the hoax is real, IMO we should wait and see what happens, but confidence is almost dead.<br /><br />                                                      :bearhug:<br />
    <br /><br />Indeed, I still believe the hoax is real, meaning that Michael is not dead. And yes, wait and see is the name of the game. Nothing I can say about confidence (in a BAM, I suppose), though.
  • marumjjmarumjj Posts: 1,027
    on 1357035963:
    <br />OK now in California it's 02:26 a.m.<br />TS said the hoax is planned according to California time zone. And that BAM will be by January 1st. So starting from now, there are still 22 hours.... We'll see...At least TODAY we'll know one way or the other: BAM or no BAM! lol  :icon_lol: :bowdown: :affraid: :icon_bounce:<br />
    <br /><br />Sim're right, I think we are all too eager, I must confess that sadness, today will be my companion, but if TS appears, sadness I'll kick your ass ...
  • leilani81leilani81 Posts: 484
    The question I pose to people here is... <br /><br />who led you to this forum?<br />You led you to believe?<br />who led you to feel there was a BAM?<br /><br />Was it Front? Was it T.S? They gave words here and there and some pictures but each one of you guys kept the excitement going, each one of yous shared information you saw, your ideas, and also your hearts. <br /><br />If Front or/And T.S are fake informers... what changes? <br /><br />Does it stop you believing? does it stop you thinking there will be a BAM? does it really change anything? <br /><br />
  • SimPattyKSimPattyK Posts: 4,281
    on 1357036962:
    <br />
    on 1357035963:
    <br />OK now in California it's 02:26 a.m.<br />TS said the hoax is planned according to California time zone. And that BAM will be by January 1st. So starting from now, there are still 22 hours.... We'll see...At least TODAY we'll know one way or the other: BAM or no BAM! lol  :icon_lol: :bowdown: :affraid: :icon_bounce:<br />
    <br /><br />Sim're right, I think we are all too eager, I must confess that sadness, today will be my companion, but if TS appears, sadness I'll kick your ass ...<br />
    ^^  :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
  • MJonmindMJonmind Posts: 7,290
    Curls<br />
    I don't mind telling you it doesn't feel like a 'happy new year' to me.  I have a sad and heavy heart.
    <br />Yes, it hurts very much, especially for hoax old-timers.  I find myself wanting to give up too, yet I still have a glimmer of hope. If TS, Front (and Back, SOTT, LTTW) are only super-trolls, then they have been in collusion with Paris, Latoya, MJ FB, TMZ, Lisa Marie, and some others connected to MJ.  And what could they possibly have gotten out of this monstrosity, that must have taken much time and effort. TS' signs alone took effort on his part.  If they came from Sony, again what would be the purpose?  If MJ was dead, perhaps they were sent to keep his memory alive. I would have purchased 'Michael' and 'Bad25', regardless of the hoax investigation.  If he's still alive, why has he been silent all these 3 1/2 years?  If TS and Front are Michael, why is he playing with us?  If it's him, part of me feels frustration at him, and part of me thinks, what did we misunderstand in the game riddles?<br /><br />Front on Dec 17,12<br />
    I suggest we not get our undies/drawers/thongs/boxers -- whatever you call them -- into a twist...unless you want to be that perpetual pretzel forever lost & floating in outerspace, grasping at every twinkling star while you're drifting through the dark, trying to untether that wedgie…..speaking OF…perhaps we should give Michael a little SPACE --- outside of the inflated balloon!, which seems to have PRESSurized as of late. <br /> <br />Now, before anyone jumps on the "we've-been-patient-for-3-plus-years" bandwagon and "you don't understand" la la la….."you haven't been here the whooooole timE" etc etc etc…..oh, really! MAY I suggest that you take a look back and READ my posts.  I can honestly say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I would give any one of you here the shirt off my back if cold…the food off my plate if hungry…the water in my glass until your cup runneth over. I care deeply about each & every 1 of you. Yes, YOU. I have tried to offer comforting words--and not JUST words but words of TRUTH…..and attempted to do my best to shed a little light in times of darkness. MOST of which were accepted and appreciated. And this is NOT a horn-tooter by any means…point being: like I have stated previously, the support and appreciation goes BOTH ways. Do you think MJ doesn't appreciate the love & support here ---- even from those who seem like they are ready to bite his head off and spit him out if he doesn't BAM by THEIR deadline? Hmmm, yea I would dare to say with CERTAINTY!…I_DEED he does.  <br /><br />Front has never never--never ONCE!!--asked anyone to believe his words based on his words alone. And that REMAINs the case. Evidence speaks for itself----> http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,22635.0.html  I would only ASK…..that you all be kind to each other while "sitting in the waiting room". Silence is not cause for alarm.  No need to be frantically looking for that red EXIT sign above the door. <br /><br />Remember: MJ is quite good at transforming into the Master Of Illusion. The words and events that shall unfold in tHIS story "book" are no different---since they were written by him. Did you know that MJ likes word games? Yes, of course you did. So---beyond the twists and turns of the (seemingly) shapeshifting "plot", open your eyes (and mind) a little more…..and WAIT for the next epoch before closing the book….. <br /><br />Don'T take mere words at face value.
    <br /><br />"doesn't BAM by THEIR deadline,word games, shape-shifting plot, next epoch..."  Okay so TS clearly gave the deadline, and Front has transferred ownership of it to us--a hand-off.  If the plot of this hoax investigation is going to shape-shift and change at any time, and words can mean anything or change in meaning--do we have what it takes to play this?  If they are MJ, does he really think we can stay the course?  How many more are going to drop out with this WHAM let-down, not Bam?  How deep does the LIE in "BeLIEve" really go?  Is this going to be Survival of the fittest, down to the last player? Kinda like that Linda Hood Sigmon keeping her site open about Elvis being alive.  How many of our little group will continue, now knowing the rules of the game?  I'm going to try.<br /><br />Front on Dec 19,12<br />
    :errrr: :icon_e_confused:<br />Sounds like you got it all figured out, bec: Front is a fake, which would mean that Paris, Jermaine, La Toya, the official MJ FB page, the handwritten notes, etc. etc. are also fake--- and yep, MJ did indeed depart from this world on June 25, 2009. <br /> :icon_rolleyes:<br />…..although I seriously doubt that you honestly believe any of that.<br /><br />It's clear that you have misinterpreted my words--- AGAIN--- after reading your previous post…..hence the magnifying glass---NOT because you haven't "tried hard enough" in the past 3+ years. <br /><br />Get back on the horse--both literally & figuratively. We both know you can--- and WILL. <br /><br />Don't lose your faith in MJ now…..not now.
    <br />And what was the "necessary early" Merry Christmas for?
  • SimPattyKSimPattyK Posts: 4,281
    on 1357022483:
    <br />Anyone seen this on the TMZ page on the side? <br /><br />RR_mysterious_deaths_4.jpg<br />
    <br /><br />Hummm... tks for sharing!<br />It would be interesting to know if that's ^^ recent or if it's been there for a longer time?<br /><br />http://www.tmz.com/<br /><br />http://www.tmz.com/photos/2012/12/12/mysterious-celebrity-deaths/images/2012/12/12/mysterious-deaths-04-jpg/
  • leilani81leilani81 Posts: 484
    on 1357037752:
    <br />
    on 1357022483:
    <br />Anyone seen this on the TMZ page on the side? <br /><br />RR_mysterious_deaths_4.jpg<br />
    <br /><br />Hymmm... tks for sharing!<br />It would be interesting to know if that's ^^ recent or if it's been there for a longer time?<br /><br />http://www.tmz.com/<br /><br />http://www.tmz.com/photos/2012/12/12/mysterious-celebrity-deaths/images/2012/12/12/mysterious-deaths-04-jpg/<br />
    <br /><br />well it says above the first picture<br /><br />
    12/30/2012 9:00 PM PST
      <br /><br /><br />I thought the picture was interesting because DECEPTION was on top of Michael's Picture, Deception is a new program which I don't even think has anything to do with the celebrities...<br /><br />
  • jonojono Posts: 279
    Hang in there everyone! ANswers are coming! <br /><br /> :bearhug:
  • SimPattyKSimPattyK Posts: 4,281
    leilani81: loll right! I just realized me too... the date on the photo-article! I was about to type it...you were faster!  :icon_e_wink:<br /><br />    12/30/2012    [size=12pt]9[/size]:00 PM PST <br /><br />1+2+3+2+1+2 = [size=12pt]11[/size] <br /><br />[size=12pt]9/11 ! [/size]jono: I'm like you! I still have hope! I still beLIEve!  :icon_e_wink:<br />
  • JukeBoxJukeBox Posts: 378
    on 1357038413:
    <br />Hang in there everyone! ANswers are coming! <br /><br /> :bearhug:<br />
    <br /><br />Thanks for your encouragement jono <3<br /><br />It hurts a little inside, not knowing if TS lied deliberately about BAM before the end of 2012, or if there was a change to the plan. Still, nothing negates the evidence he has presented so far.<br /><br />I wish we had the answers soon. Still keeping the faith - L.O.V.E. to all and wishing all a blessed 2013 ahead!<br /><br />
  • gwynnedgwynned Posts: 1,361
    on 1357041216:
    <br />
    on 1357038413:
    <br />Hang in there everyone! ANswers are coming! <br /><br /> :bearhug:<br />
    <br /><br />Thanks for your encouragement jono <3<br /><br />It hurts a little inside, not knowing if TS lied deliberately about BAM before the end of 2012, or if there was a change to the plan. Still, nothing negates the evidence he has presented so far.<br /><br />I wish we had the answers soon. Still keeping the faith - L.O.V.E. to all and wishing all a blessed 2013 ahead!<br />
    <br /><br />It's a bit comforting to know you are all out there hanging in there.  I guess that's what faith is all about.  Thank you all!  :bearhug:
  • mattiemattie Posts: 296
    Is Deception  above Michael? or above o2 guy?<br />I dont know what to think anymore?<br /><br /> <br />And try to hang on..but it is hard.<br /><br /><br /><br />
    on 1357038289:
    <br />
    on 1357037752:
    <br />
    on 1357022483:
    <br />Anyone seen this on the TMZ page on the side? <br /><br />RR_mysterious_deaths_4.jpg<br />
    <br /><br />Hymmm... tks for sharing!<br />It would be interesting to know if that's ^^ recent or if it's been there for a longer time?<br /><br />http://www.tmz.com/<br /><br />http://www.tmz.com/photos/2012/12/12/mysterious-celebrity-deaths/images/2012/12/12/mysterious-deaths-04-jpg/<br />
    <br /><br />well it says above the first picture<br /><br />
    12/30/2012 9:00 PM PST
      <br /><br /><br />I thought the picture was interesting because DECEPTION was on top of Michael's Picture, Deception is a new program which I don't even think has anything to do with the celebrities...<br />
  • marumjjmarumjj Posts: 1,027
    Hey guys! I'm sad, but standing and did not lose hope. MJ I believe, above all, thanks for being here<br /><br /><br /><br />                                        images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQc1sPNbfc3I2KbGxZbI2AzzF8N6ZSr8c5TOysVZ2f-FgTMSXtIQg
  • GINAFELICIAGINAFELICIA Posts: 6,506
    Hello MJHDI people.<br />Happy new year everybody!<br /><br />As about the no BAM, I guess many of us expected it. <br />Apart from all the suffering, I am quite curious about what TS is going to say next. Anyway, if we were deceived, we were deceived by a little genius, which I personally admire a lot. <br />My opinion that TIAI was a brilliant kind of production still stands anyway.<br /><br />
  • leilani81leilani81 Posts: 484
    on 1357042568:
    <br />Is Deception  above Michael? or above o2 guy?<br />I dont know what to think anymore?<br /><br /> <br />And try to hang on..but it is hard.<br /><br /><br /><br />
    on 1357038289:
    <br />
    on 1357037752:
    <br />
    on 1357022483:
    <br />Anyone seen this on the TMZ page on the side? <br /><br />RR_mysterious_deaths_4.jpg<br />
    <br /><br />Hymmm... tks for sharing!<br />It would be interesting to know if that's ^^ recent or if it's been there for a longer time?<br /><br />http://www.tmz.com/<br /><br />http://www.tmz.com/photos/2012/12/12/mysterious-celebrity-deaths/images/2012/12/12/mysterious-deaths-04-jpg/<br />
    <br /><br />well it says above the first picture<br /><br />
    12/30/2012 9:00 PM PST
      <br /><br /><br />I thought the picture was interesting because DECEPTION was on top of Michael's Picture, Deception is a new program which I don't even think has anything to do with the celebrities...<br />
    <br />
    <br /><br />well personally speaking, O2 and MJ are the very same person... but that's neither here nor there. <br /><br /><br />I didn't think Michael's death was "mysterious" if you go with the "official" story... he died at the hands of a doctor... that's no more mysterious than my little pinky on my left hand... so why is he on the front of it?<br /><br />He doesn't fit into that category, with the words DECEPTION above his head... His death = Deception? That's what I'm thinking anyways..
  • gwynnedgwynned Posts: 1,361
    Interesting that he's pictured with Lady Di.  Did they BOTH hoax their deaths?  Is that the deception?
  • leilani81leilani81 Posts: 484
    on 1357042990:
    <br />Hello MJHDI people.<br />Happy new year everybody!<br /><br />As about the no BAM, I guess many of us expected it. <br />Apart from all the suffering, I am quite curious about what TS is going to say next. Anyway, if we were deceived, we were deceived by a little genius, which I personally admire a lot. <br />My opinion that TIAI was a brilliant kind of production still stands anyway.<br />
    <br /><br />If he deceived... <br /><br />Manipulation isn't the same as being a genius, anyone can manipulate without being a genius.. a baby knows how to manipulate by pouting or doing something equally adorable or heart wrenching to get what she/he wants..... I have 3 children and they did a good job in getting what they wanted  :smiley-vault-misc-150:
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