The "no one in the ambulance" theory was too risky, there were too many people there, I don't think Michael could have fooled them all.
The dummy theory means that they were all in, EMTs, UCLA, coroners - quite a long chaine, don't you think?
I still think there was a body or a double/twin who died that day.
A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.
If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.
No, because that means the date of death was a coincidence, since assisted suicide isn't legal in California.
You think Michael or his rep. would contact doctors of those 3 states and set up agreement to inform him wich patient got agreed to die so they would realize hoax? Besides there is a certain legal requirement they have to meet that also could make hoax date, numerology and timing wise, random.
Legal Requirements: The Oregon Death with Dignity Act, and the Washington statute modeled after it, set certain requirements and safeguards before a person may commit suicide with a doctor's assistance. The patient must be of sound mind when they request a prescription for a lethal dose of medication. Two doctors must confirm a diagnosis of terminal illness with no more than six months to live. Two witnesses, one non-doctor unrelated to the patient, must confirm the patient's request, and the patient must make a second request after 15 days.
The "no one in the ambulance" theory was too risky, there were too many people there, I don't think Michael could have fooled them all.
The dummy theory means that they were all in, EMTs, UCLA, coroners - quite a long chaine, don't you think?
I still think there was a body or a double/twin who died that day.
A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.
If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.
No, because that means the date of death was a coincidence, since assisted suicide isn't legal in California.
You think Michael or his rep. would contact doctors of those 3 states and set up agreement to inform him wich patient got agreed to die so they would realize hoax? Besides there is a certain legal requirement they have to meet that also could make hoax date, numerology and timing wise, random.
Legal Requirements: The Oregon Death with Dignity Act, and the Washington statute modeled after it, set certain requirements and safeguards before a person may commit suicide with a doctor's assistance. The patient must be of sound mind when they request a prescription for a lethal dose of medication. Two doctors must confirm a diagnosis of terminal illness with no more than six months to live. Two witnesses, one non-doctor unrelated to the patient, must confirm the patient's request, and the patient must make a second request after 15 days.
Where is the problem? The patient can choose his own death date.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
[quote="~Souza~" A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.
If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.
No, because that means the date of death was a coincidence, since assisted suicide isn't legal in California.
You think Michael or his rep. would contact doctors of those 3 states and set up agreement to inform him wich patient got agreed to die so they would realize hoax? Besides there is a certain legal requirement they have to meet that also could make hoax date, numerology and timing wise, random.[/color]
Legal Requirements: The Oregon Death with Dignity Act, and the Washington statute modeled after it, set certain requirements and safeguards before a person may commit suicide with a doctor's assistance. The patient must be of sound mind when they request a prescription for a lethal dose of medication. Two doctors must confirm a diagnosis of terminal illness with no more than six months to live. Two witnesses, one non-doctor unrelated to the patient, must confirm the patient's request, and the patient must make a second request after 15 days.
Where is the problem? The patient can choose his own death date.[/quote][/quote]
But then MJ would've had to suggest to him the day of June 25. And the guy would say, well I was thinking April or May. And Michael would say, please or I promise to take good care of you. Or would he say, so Michael when would you like me to die to help you out? Hmm...
Putting MJ/dummy/corpse/nothing to one side for a moment, I'd like to get clear who ('alive') was actually in the ambulance. Exactly how many EMTs were there? And how many of them had actually been attending to 'MJ' in the bedroom?
Richard Senneff and Martin Blount are the only 2 who gave evidence in the prelim.
Souza wrote:
ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present)
Blount said he was the driver. In one account, he also said he was the 5th of 5 firefighters to enter the home. (It's in my notes, I need to check where I read it.) He also said that he saw Murray on the phone in the ambulance. (Is this possible if he was driving?)
A paramedic Mark Goodwin is mentioned in Blount's testimony:
"DDA Q: Did you count the number of sites that paramedic Goodwin tried to access to get a line in?
Blount: No."
@ Im_convinced, I'm not convinced that 3 paramedics are confirmed at all! Can I ask you where Jeffrey Mills came from, apart from the witness list?
Official General Prelim Discussion thread
<!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17015<!-- l -->
Then you have the witness list (see thread link above) of who testified at the pre-lim in regards to Dr. Cooper and the paramedics that showed up that day and transported the body to the hospital. Now after the jury questionnaire has been released, (see link below) it shows the full potential witness list. All 3 of the paramedics are confirmed. These are the ones who showed up that day. Richard Senneff FF/PM, Martin Blount FF/PM and Jeffrey Mills Fire Captain. <!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=172&t=18674<!-- l -->
One last thing, for now, just so I'm clear, can someone tell me are firefighters also paramedics in the US?
Hi curls,
Where did you read that Blount said he drove? According to what I have read regarding the 2 paramedics who testified at the pre-lim; Senneff talked about the ambulance driver but was not specific about who. Blount was quoted in the same article as Senneff as being in the room with Murray working on MJ with Senneff. That is my own conclusion based on what I have read.
Senneff said that the ambulance driver had trouble navigating away from the residence because of a throng that included passengers of a tour bus and photographers with “big cameras, little cameras, video cameras, still cameras.”
At one point, a man with a video camera ran alongside the ambulance holding a camera with a large lens against the window. “It just seemed wrong,” he said. Under questioning by a defense lawyer, Senneff said Murray wanted to put a “central line” to restart Jackson’s heart, but that medics did not have equipment or training to do so.
Judge Michael Pastor also heard from a second paramedic who, like Senneff, said that Murray initially claimed he had not given his patient any medication.
Martin Blount said the denial struck him as odd because he saw a hypodermic needle and three bottles of lidocaine in the room. Murray, he said, “scooped up” the bottles and placed them in a bag before they left for the hospital. “Did you ever see those bottles again,” Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren asked. “No, sir,” Blount replied. Murray, 57, has pleaded not guilty.
[youtube:133506en]
Uploaded by LAFD027 on Jun 25, 2009
Discover the value of every LAFD Rescue Ambulance. Every Fire Station (currently) has at least one ambulance. In most single engine stations, the ambulance is for "Basic Life Support" or BLS responses. It is staffed by EMT/Firefighters. Single engine stations often utilize an "assessment" Engine, meaning a Paramedic is on the engine. Larger stations have "Advanced Life Support" or ALS ambulances, staffed by two paramedics. When you see an LAFD ambulance on the road, you can tell which is which by their numbers. An ALS ambulance from FS9 will have RA9 on the side. A BLS ambulance from FS9 will have 809 on the side. If the ambulance is from a station in the higher numbers, such as fire station 104, the BLS ambulance will be numbered RA904.
[quote="~Souza~" A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.
If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.
No, because that means the date of death was a coincidence, since assisted suicide isn't legal in California.
You think Michael or his rep. would contact doctors of those 3 states and set up agreement to inform him wich patient got agreed to die so they would realize hoax? Besides there is a certain legal requirement they have to meet that also could make hoax date, numerology and timing wise, random.[/color]
Legal Requirements: The Oregon Death with Dignity Act, and the Washington statute modeled after it, set certain requirements and safeguards before a person may commit suicide with a doctor's assistance. The patient must be of sound mind when they request a prescription for a lethal dose of medication. Two doctors must confirm a diagnosis of terminal illness with no more than six months to live. Two witnesses, one non-doctor unrelated to the patient, must confirm the patient's request, and the patient must make a second request after 15 days.
Where is the problem? The patient can choose his own death date.
[/quote]
I underlined inconsistency problems.[/quote]
I still don't see any problems.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
....... And if that person did not die the day 25, and if it was the night before or the dawning, remember what he said Kai Chase the cook from Michael , she was strange that prepared soup toscana of white beans to Michael and Murray the night before but when he came to work the next morning the soup was intact. <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: --> Since i do not know what to say <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
[quote="~Souza~" A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.
If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.
No, because that means the date of death was a coincidence, since assisted suicide isn't legal in California.
You think Michael or his rep. would contact doctors of those 3 states and set up agreement to inform him wich patient got agreed to die so they would realize hoax? Besides there is a certain legal requirement they have to meet that also could make hoax date, numerology and timing wise, random.[/color]
Legal Requirements: The Oregon Death with Dignity Act, and the Washington statute modeled after it, set certain requirements and safeguards before a person may commit suicide with a doctor's assistance. The patient must be of sound mind when they request a prescription for a lethal dose of medication. Two doctors must confirm a diagnosis of terminal illness with no more than six months to live. Two witnesses, one non-doctor unrelated to the patient, must confirm the patient's request, and the patient must make a second request after 15 days.
Where is the problem? The patient can choose his own death date.
I underlined inconsistency problems.[/quote]
I still don't see any problems.[/quote]
Come on Souza. .You don't see or you don't want to see? There would definitely be inconsistences in numerology 25, timing 12.21, 911 cal l, and other timings if the ambulance patient going to be the dead patient flying from Oregon, since there is a time to comply with legal requirements and plane fly that simply could be delayed for any reason.
Anyone familiar with TS's updates will remember this:
This update 6.5 (6 + 5 = 11) was posted at 11:30 PM (CA time), on 11-30 (November 30). Also, a few days ago TIAI redirected to a clock with the hands at 11:30 {http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=16037}. What is the significance of this? As usual, the redirect had more than one meaning.
Speaking of Thriller, 11:30 (PM) is “close to midnight ... the midnight hour is close at hand”. So 11:30 also represents near the end (end of the day, or end of the hoax, or end of the world, etc).
And finally, we are now about half way between 2009 and 2012 (“four more years”); and 11:30 is half way between 11:00 and 12:00. The clock is ticking, and there is no time for unimportant or unkind controversy. Yes, some things are important and must be discussed—even if we don’t agree; but even then, disagreements should be done respectfully. It’s all for LOVE!
Then today on TMZ, look at this article title and time.
No real dead body. It is sick, wrong and illegal. The FBI isn't above the law. There is a word for people who act as if they are above the law. We call them criminals.
Where is decency? NOTHING makes involving a real human body, as a Law Enforcement or Hollywood prop, acceptable. <!-- s:x -->:x<!-- s:x -->
It would be another matter, say, if during a robbery or something, the body became deceased in the line of weapon-fire, to use to provide escape for the remaining living or some similar scenario, in that INSTANT, but just to make a plan to go get one from the "dispensary" is as disrespectful as some of the other things which happen to unsuspectingly donated "to science" corpses.
Put this shoe on, for a moment: would you feel differently if the dead body being "used" was one of his brothers? How about if it was YOUR brother? I am NOT being rude or gross, please listen...using ANY one's body in some "Sting" or hoax is the rudeness. If it's ok to use some homeless person or some stranger's it's ok to use that of your loved ones, too. Do certain of us (humans) have less value? (Just asking.)
It really bothers me that people are desensitized to this. Very scary. <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
I know that the real value of the person, their spirit and soul are gone, and it's just like a coat someone discarded as they left us, but as God-made remains, in the likeness of someone's loved one, they deserve respect, not a new, post mortem adventure. <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: -->
I can't IMAGINE Mr. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> "Love and Let's Live Forever" going along with anything remotely like this, but, I am willing to hear the explanation(s) and rationale, before I am totally repulsed. Even Michael Jackson is accountable to decency, but, to be fair, I don't know what he would have had to allow himself to get into, either...
The heated room also makes a real dead body dangerous. I won't go into why, as the last two times trying to post this, ended in vaporization of the posts. Either I am paranoid, or simply just not ALLOWED to go THERE. It has not been the practice and protocol to chill them, always wear gloves around them, and store them in a separately ventilated area, for NOTHING.
Anyway, high temps expedite decomposition, & depending upon the length of "holding" time in the hyper-heated environment, the persons playing with any real corpse would risk it requiring a WetVac to move the thing at all...Bodies dying under certain circumstances can begin to come apart the same day, despite what Wiki says.
Anyway, I already posted my other reasons for not using a real body, here:
I now think that there was NOTHING in the ambulance, no dummy, especially; everything could shopped in that photo, except for the two EMTs/FBI agents acting as EMTs. If you'll notice, the covered "shape" which is moved to the helicopter is way too slight of frame and flat, under the sheet. A balled up sheet or two is explainable, a mannequin or dummy of some kind is way too complicated to make disappear, particularly in such tight quarters, on TV with the world watching. <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
Likewise with MJ or a substitute. TOO much of a risk in such tight maneuvering room. It is not a parlor trick, there is way too much at risk for this to go wrong and be exposed in the first HOUR of the hoax <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> I posted all this before, anyway, as well. ANY life sized dummy would have been impossible to get rid of, with all eyes watching that little bit of area around the ambulance. That's all, my two cents. <!-- s:| -->:|<!-- s:| -->
No real dead body. It is sick, wrong and illegal. The FBI isn't above the law. There is a word for people who act as if they are above the law. We call them criminals.
Where is decency? NOTHING makes involving a real human body, as a Law Enforcement or Hollywood prop, acceptable. <!-- s:x -->:x<!-- s:x -->
I now think that there was NOTHING in the ambulance, no dummy, especially; everything could shopped in that photo, except for the two EMTs/FBI agents acting as EMTs. If you'll notice, the covered "shape" which is moved to the helicopter is way too slight of frame and flat, under the sheet. A balled up sheet or two is explainable, a mannequin or dummy of some kind is way too complicated to make disappear, particularly in such tight quarters, on TV with the world watching. <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
Likewise with MJ or a substitute. TOO much of a risk in such tight maneuvering room. It is not a parlor trick, there is way too much at risk for this to go wrong and be exposed in the first HOUR of the hoax <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> I posted all this before, anyway, as well. ANY life sized dummy would have been impossible to get rid of, with all eyes watching that little bit of area around the ambulance. That's all, my two cents. <!-- s:| -->:|<!-- s:| -->
If you are so certain in your theory that there was no body at all, in ambulance and in helicopter. Do you have certain theory who's body was observed & autopsy out there?
I thought those caps were odd as well Andrea, you might have a point. Yet that would mean many more would be in. I know that a dead body that looks like a sick old frail man would raise questions, but that will only let people suspect things. No body at all means that people present at the house, the EMT's, and everyone present in the room at the hospital are in on it.
Scorpionchik has a point with the transport of the body in the plane since it could be delayed for whatever reason. Not likely, but possible. There is still the option that the assisted suicide took place at Carolwood Drive though, but so far i have had no reply to my question if it's possible to die in another state where it's not (yet) legal.
Besides the plane-issue, I have not seen one solid argument against the real corpse theory, other than opinions based on emotions. Itsher, who decides what is sick and what isn't? Do you think this hoax is one big PR stunt, or can you wrap your mind around the idea that this may be a big global sting operation which has been going on for quite some time, where MJ might not have the last say on everything? Would the use of a dead body be illigal in this case? I don't know. Can you back up that claim?
Don't get me wrong, I am not in favor of the dead body theory, but because I think this is bigger than anyone of us can comprehend and because I myself and some others in this discussion do not see it as sick or morbid, I still think it's very possible, until someone can show me otherwise. A real body means less people involved, no body at all means many people involved and risky since there would be an empty stretcher. A double who died seems way too coincidental, a double that would be alive or MJ himself doesn't match the description of the EMT's and the doctor that the person was long gone, plus they all have to be in on it in this case as well, since you can't perform CPR on a person that is alive and kicking, plus MJ or the double couldn't fake a cardiac arrest. I would buy the dummy story if it could fool an EMT (doctor not necessary, since Cooper called the TOD which fits into the numerology, therefore she MUST be in) and maybe some nurses present in the hospital room, but I doubt it.
Does anyone know how many people were working on the body at UCLA?
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Anyone familiar with TS's updates will remember this:
This update 6.5 (6 + 5 = 11) was posted at 11:30 PM (CA time), on 11-30 (November 30). Also, a few days ago TIAI redirected to a clock with the hands at 11:30 {http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=16037}. What is the significance of this? As usual, the redirect had more than one meaning.
Speaking of Thriller, 11:30 (PM) is “close to midnight ... the midnight hour is close at hand”. So 11:30 also represents near the end (end of the day, or end of the hoax, or end of the world, etc).
And finally, we are now about half way between 2009 and 2012 (“four more years”); and 11:30 is half way between 11:00 and 12:00. The clock is ticking, and there is no time for unimportant or unkind controversy. Yes, some things are important and must be discussed—even if we don’t agree; but even then, disagreements should be done respectfully. It’s all for LOVE!
Then today on TMZ, look at this article title and time.
You guys are going to extreme, elaborate lengths to argue that there COULD have been a body. Yeah well MJ could have gotten in the space shuttle and blasted off to the moon. After all he is the MOONwalker. It's possible you know. Don't make me post a thousand links and videos about civilian space travel...
A dead body is not logical, it doesn't make sense, it's totally out of character, and it's incredibly complicated, not to mention scientifically and biologically very difficult (if not impossible, you can't entubulate a corpse) as well as illegal. I've proved all that already, I'm done, carry on with your bad selves.
Anybody in the Carolwood home that day would be in Michael's circle of trust. He had to escape unnoticed whether there was a dummy or dead body anyways so the dummy is just easier on so many levels. I still think there were two dummies, one in the ambulance photo and the other a frail old guy.
The ambulance photo proves to me that the paramedics were in on it. If it was a frail old guy they transported they would've seen the photo and said, "Hey, wait a minute!!" because the guy in that photo is clearly not what they described. They also refer to the body as "it".
Faking one's death is not an easy task and you do need certain people to be in on it initially. Not everyone in the house had to be necessarily - I'm sure Michael's room was off-limits or whoever didn't know what was going on would've been ushered away and out of sight. The people who transport the dummy know, the doctor at UCLA knows as does the coroner. That's not too many people in my opinion.
I apologize if this was mentioned. To be honest, I'm being lazy and not reading the back posts. I don't think a dead body was used for this. I don't think it is necessary. I'll try to explain this the best way I can.
I keep thinking about Ben's "slip up" of "the other day..." and I think this was deliberate to let us know that this situation happened on another day. I personally believe, like others, that the famous ambulance photo and the photos of the body going in the hospital were done prior to June 25th. This may have been part of the secretive Dome Project where they shot specific photos in a movie lot at an undisclosed location. I think a dummy or Michael or a double was used for the photos. I am not sure. I would have to look closer at these photos to figure if the person is even a real person to determine the dummy theory. Anyway, I think the photos were done prior to June 25th for a few reasons. 1) They can set up the right lighting, angle, positioning of EMTs and the possible leaf pattern (if you believe it was there and not photoshopped in). 2) In the photo of the body being pushed in the hospital, there is really no crowd around and there are a few photos. Plus, there is no video of this scene, only photos. (Unless I missed something. Please let me know if I did.) With this in mind, it would be easier to stage the photos and even use a dummy that is mechanically-controlled to make it look like MJ was sitting up on the stretcher. It may sound far-fetch but it is possible.
I think they recreated the scenario on June 25th and this time taped it and had the same people that were involved with the staged photo shoot. Again, I think a dummy was used on this day. No need to have a real body if they are involved with the photoshoot.
That's my theory. I'm sure there are tons of holes. Please feel free to poke at them. Unfortunately, I haven't had time to really investigate as of lately but I'm still reading and lurking around. I think there is a reason why TS keeps emphasizing on this other day and I'm guessing this could be the reason.
Scorpionchik has a point with the transport of the body in the plane since it could be delayed for whatever reason. Not likely, but possible. There is still the option that the assisted suicide took place at Carolwood Drive though, but so far i have had no reply to my question if it's possible to die in another state where it's not (yet) legal.
Analysis of California’s Assisted Suicide Proposal
“COMPASSIONATE CHOICES ACT” (AB 374)
Update (6/7/07): AB 374 failed to get through the Assembly. The bill is “shelved,” meaning it cannot be brought up again until January 2008.
On 2/15/07, Assemblywoman Patty Berg, Assemblyman Lloyd Levine (D-Van Nuys) and Speaker of the Assembly Fabian Nunez introduced the latest assisted suicide bill, the 2007 “California Compassionate Choices Act” (AB 374). The bill, patterned after Oregon’s assisted-suicide law, contains the same provisions as AB 651 that failed in 2006.
On 3/27/07, the bill passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee in a 7-3 vote and, on 5/31/07, it passed the Assembly Appropriations Committee 10-5. Assisted-suicide advocates scheduled it for a full Assembly vote on 6/6/07, later delaying the vote for a day when they realized they did not have sufficient support. The necessary support to pass the measure did not materialize and the bill was shelved on 6/7/07.
I guess I am gonna repeat DEAD BODY OF CANCER PATIENT WHO LIVED AT MJ'S HOUSE WAS TRANSPORTED TO UCLA, because....
California approves nurse-assisted suicide
Schwarzenegger signs bill authorizing dehydration, starvation of patients
Posted: October 02, 2008
12:30 am Eastern
SACRAMENTO – California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has officially approved an assisted suicide measure allowing nurses to sedate, dehydrate and starve depressed or confused individuals they consider to be "terminally ill."
The bill, sponsored by Assemblywoman Patty Berg, a Democrat, passed the California Assembly Aug. 28, and the state Senate Aug. 20. It was signed by the governor yesterday.
The legislation, called the "Terminal Patients' Right to Know End of Life Options Act," or AB 2747, passed by a 42 to 34 vote. An Aug. 20 Senate vote of 21 to 17 ushered the measure to the governor's desk for signing.
Randy Thomasson, chief of the Campaign for Children and Families, said the legislation is dangerous and should have been vetoed by Gov. Schwarzenegger.
"AB 2747 pushes suicide through the back door at the hands of non-physicians taking advantage of depressed patients," he said in a statement. "AB 2747 cheapens the value of human life by endorsing suicide as an option."
The measure allows physician assistants and nurses to decide whether a person is "terminally ill" and deprive them of basic life-sustaining necessities such as food and water.
"Depressed patients who succumb to this pressure will be drugged unconscious and die from dehydration, usually within five to 10 days," Thomasson said. "Nothing in the bill prohibits this horror."
Thomasson said Berg "deceptively changed" the bill to appear that "voluntarily stopping of eating and drinking" and "palliative sedation" no longer were on a list of "symptom management" options.
And your right Souza, dead body means less people in hoax, which more reasonable.
Scorpionchik has a point with the transport of the body in the plane since it could be delayed for whatever reason. Not likely, but possible. There is still the option that the assisted suicide took place at Carolwood Drive though, but so far i have had no reply to my question if it's possible to die in another state where it's not (yet) legal.
Analysis of California’s Assisted Suicide Proposal
“COMPASSIONATE CHOICES ACT” (AB 374)
Update (6/7/07): AB 374 failed to get through the Assembly. The bill is “shelved,” meaning it cannot be brought up again until January 2008.
On 2/15/07, Assemblywoman Patty Berg, Assemblyman Lloyd Levine (D-Van Nuys) and Speaker of the Assembly Fabian Nunez introduced the latest assisted suicide bill, the 2007 “California Compassionate Choices Act” (AB 374). The bill, patterned after Oregon’s assisted-suicide law, contains the same provisions as AB 651 that failed in 2006.
On 3/27/07, the bill passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee in a 7-3 vote and, on 5/31/07, it passed the Assembly Appropriations Committee 10-5. Assisted-suicide advocates scheduled it for a full Assembly vote on 6/6/07, later delaying the vote for a day when they realized they did not have sufficient support. The necessary support to pass the measure did not materialize and the bill was shelved on 6/7/07.
Yes, that was never my point. I KNOW it's illegal in California, but I want to know if a patient from Washington for exaple, can choose WHERE he wants to self-administer the drugs, OUTside the state where it is legal, but being a Washington resident. No doctor has to be there on the day itself, so that means he can administer it wherever he wants. The doctor did everything according the law, and he doesn't have to be at his patient's side, so he can't help it if he flies to Cali. And the patient himself will be dead and can't be charged either. So my guess is that he could very well have commited assisted suicide at Carolwood Drive.
@bec, I have seen your arguments and I replied to them as well, if I haven't missed any. So far I'm not yet convinced, so the real body theory is not yet debunked for me.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Scorpionchik has a point with the transport of the body in the plane since it could be delayed for whatever reason. Not likely, but possible. There is still the option that the assisted suicide took place at Carolwood Drive though, but so far i have had no reply to my question if it's possible to die in another state where it's not (yet) legal.
Analysis of California’s Assisted Suicide Proposal
“COMPASSIONATE CHOICES ACT” (AB 374)
Update (6/7/07): AB 374 failed to get through the Assembly. The bill is “shelved,” meaning it cannot be brought up again until January 2008.
On 2/15/07, Assemblywoman Patty Berg, Assemblyman Lloyd Levine (D-Van Nuys) and Speaker of the Assembly Fabian Nunez introduced the latest assisted suicide bill, the 2007 “California Compassionate Choices Act” (AB 374). The bill, patterned after Oregon’s assisted-suicide law, contains the same provisions as AB 651 that failed in 2006.
On 3/27/07, the bill passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee in a 7-3 vote and, on 5/31/07, it passed the Assembly Appropriations Committee 10-5. Assisted-suicide advocates scheduled it for a full Assembly vote on 6/6/07, later delaying the vote for a day when they realized they did not have sufficient support. The necessary support to pass the measure did not materialize and the bill was shelved on 6/7/07.
Yes, that was never my point. I KNOW it's illegal in California, but I want to know if a patient from Washington for exaple, can choose WHERE he wants to self-administer the drugs, OUTside the state where it is legal, but being a Washington resident. No doctor has to be there on the day itself, so that means he can administer it wherever he wants. The doctor did everything according the law, and he doesn't have to be at his patient's side, so he can't help it if he flies to Cali. And the patient himself will be dead and can't be charged either. So my guess is that he could very well have commited assisted suicide at Carolwood Drive.
@bec, I have seen your arguments and I replied to them as well, if I haven't missed any. So far I'm not yet convinced, so the real body theory is not yet debunked for me.
Scorpionchik has a point with the transport of the body in the plane since it could be delayed for whatever reason. Not likely, but possible. There is still the option that the assisted suicide took place at Carolwood Drive though, but so far i have had no reply to my question if it's possible to die in another state where it's not (yet) legal.
Analysis of California’s Assisted Suicide Proposal
“COMPASSIONATE CHOICES ACT” (AB 374)
Update (6/7/07): AB 374 failed to get through the Assembly. The bill is “shelved,” meaning it cannot be brought up again until January 2008.
On 2/15/07, Assemblywoman Patty Berg, Assemblyman Lloyd Levine (D-Van Nuys) and Speaker of the Assembly Fabian Nunez introduced the latest assisted suicide bill, the 2007 “California Compassionate Choices Act” (AB 374). The bill, patterned after Oregon’s assisted-suicide law, contains the same provisions as AB 651 that failed in 2006.
On 3/27/07, the bill passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee in a 7-3 vote and, on 5/31/07, it passed the Assembly Appropriations Committee 10-5. Assisted-suicide advocates scheduled it for a full Assembly vote on 6/6/07, later delaying the vote for a day when they realized they did not have sufficient support. The necessary support to pass the measure did not materialize and the bill was shelved on 6/7/07.
Yes, that was never my point. I KNOW it's illegal in California, but I want to know if a patient from Washington for exaple, can choose WHERE he wants to self-administer the drugs, OUTside the state where it is legal, but being a Washington resident. No doctor has to be there on the day itself, so that means he can administer it wherever he wants. The doctor did everything according the law, and he doesn't have to be at his patient's side, so he can't help it if he flies to Cali. And the patient himself will be dead and can't be charged either. So my guess is that he could very well have commited assisted suicide at Carolwood Drive.
@bec, I have seen your arguments and I replied to them as well, if I haven't missed any. So far I'm not yet convinced, so the real body theory is not yet debunked for me.
That's a different situation. That's removing a feeding tube. Death is slow and timing is unpredictable. Can take hours, can take days.
I reread my blog from 2009 and early 2010. I'm sticking with my research and my gut in this one. There was no dead body used in the course of this hoax. If I'm wrong then I've been wrong about a lot of things along the way, but the record shows that's not been the case. If I'm wrong then all laughs on me. I don't think I'm wrong.
Doesn't look like you can really plan it like that. I think self-administering lethal drugs is not really a good option, but this is even worse. <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
And they condemn us for our euthanasia policy? Okay... <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
About the dead body involving the least people being "in on it".
TS said:
Please do not jump to any quick conclusions on this, and be very careful to remember the following principles of investigation: #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better;
The fewer - the better. Not the fewest - the best. TS could've said that if there really was a dead body because that probably would have the least amount of people in on it. But TS said fewer and better. That could mean the hoax operated on a less-than-ideal scenario for the body, which I would think would be the use of a dummy. Maybe I'm twisting TS's words but TS tends to word things very carefully.
On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital). If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.
I am under the impression that TS wants the dead body theory to be de-bunked as that is what the last paragraph focused on. Otherwise he's almost telling us it was a dead body and it's not TS's style to give it away right off the bat like that. We haven't even figured out the leaf-pattern thing yet.
Curator Curtis Huber, left, and curator assistant Eric Valencia lift a wax figure of Michael Jackson to put in the front display at the Wax Museum at Fisherman’s Wharf in San Francisco on Thursday 25th June 2009.
Comments
You think Michael or his rep. would contact doctors of those 3 states and set up agreement to inform him wich patient got agreed to die so they would realize hoax? Besides there is a certain legal requirement they have to meet that also could make hoax date, numerology and timing wise, random.
Legal Requirements: The Oregon Death with Dignity Act, and the Washington statute modeled after it, set certain requirements and safeguards before a person may commit suicide with a doctor's assistance. The patient must be of sound mind when they request a prescription for a lethal dose of medication. Two doctors must confirm a diagnosis of terminal illness with no more than six months to live. Two witnesses, one non-doctor unrelated to the patient, must confirm the patient's request, and the patient must make a second request after 15 days.
Where is the problem? The patient can choose his own death date.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."Where is the problem? The patient can choose his own death date.[/quote][/quote]
I underlined inconsistency problems.
Where did you read that Blount said he drove? According to what I have read regarding the 2 paramedics who testified at the pre-lim; Senneff talked about the ambulance driver but was not specific about who. Blount was quoted in the same article as Senneff as being in the room with Murray working on MJ with Senneff. That is my own conclusion based on what I have read.
This was a process of input by 2good2btrue providing the pictures of the paramedics and the roster list. Then Grace mentioned Jefferey Mills. That was my first time being aware of him. I did some research and found the info I needed to come to a conclusion. After the full potential witness list came out when the questionnaire was released; Jefferey Mills Fire Captain was confirmed as being there on 6/25/2009 and it wasn't just my opinion or theory anymore. I hope the info here will help you. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
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I underlined inconsistency problems.[/quote]
I still don't see any problems.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."I underlined inconsistency problems.[/quote]
I still don't see any problems.[/quote]
Come on Souza. .You don't see or you don't want to see?
Anyone familiar with TS's updates will remember this:
Then today on TMZ, look at this article title and time.
Shakira -- NOBODY Stole My Jewelry!
4/14/2011 11:30 AM PDT by TMZ Staff
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Posted at 11:30...NOBODY in CAPS....No Body??
Where is decency? NOTHING makes involving a real human body, as a Law Enforcement or Hollywood prop, acceptable. <!-- s:x -->:x<!-- s:x -->
It would be another matter, say, if during a robbery or something, the body became deceased in the line of weapon-fire, to use to provide escape for the remaining living or some similar scenario, in that INSTANT, but just to make a plan to go get one from the "dispensary" is as disrespectful as some of the other things which happen to unsuspectingly donated "to science" corpses.
Put this shoe on, for a moment: would you feel differently if the dead body being "used" was one of his brothers? How about if it was YOUR brother? I am NOT being rude or gross, please listen...using ANY one's body in some "Sting" or hoax is the rudeness. If it's ok to use some homeless person or some stranger's it's ok to use that of your loved ones, too. Do certain of us (humans) have less value? (Just asking.)
It really bothers me that people are desensitized to this. Very scary. <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
I know that the real value of the person, their spirit and soul are gone, and it's just like a coat someone discarded as they left us, but as God-made remains, in the likeness of someone's loved one, they deserve respect, not a new, post mortem adventure. <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: -->
I can't IMAGINE Mr. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) --> "Love and Let's Live Forever" going along with anything remotely like this, but, I am willing to hear the explanation(s) and rationale, before I am totally repulsed. Even Michael Jackson is accountable to decency, but, to be fair, I don't know what he would have had to allow himself to get into, either...
The heated room also makes a real dead body dangerous. I won't go into why, as the last two times trying to post this, ended in vaporization of the posts. Either I am paranoid, or simply just not ALLOWED to go THERE. It has not been the practice and protocol to chill them, always wear gloves around them, and store them in a separately ventilated area, for NOTHING.
Anyway, high temps expedite decomposition, & depending upon the length of "holding" time in the hyper-heated environment, the persons playing with any real corpse would risk it requiring a WetVac to move the thing at all...Bodies dying under certain circumstances can begin to come apart the same day, despite what Wiki says.
Anyway, I already posted my other reasons for not using a real body, here:
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I now think that there was NOTHING in the ambulance, no dummy, especially; everything could shopped in that photo, except for the two EMTs/FBI agents acting as EMTs. If you'll notice, the covered "shape" which is moved to the helicopter is way too slight of frame and flat, under the sheet. A balled up sheet or two is explainable, a mannequin or dummy of some kind is way too complicated to make disappear, particularly in such tight quarters, on TV with the world watching. <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
Likewise with MJ or a substitute. TOO much of a risk in such tight maneuvering room. It is not a parlor trick, there is way too much at risk for this to go wrong and be exposed in the first HOUR of the hoax <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> <!-- s:!: -->:!:<!-- s:!: --> I posted all this before, anyway, as well. ANY life sized dummy would have been impossible to get rid of, with all eyes watching that little bit of area around the ambulance. That's all, my two cents. <!-- s:| -->:|<!-- s:| -->
If you are so certain in your theory that there was no body at all, in ambulance and in helicopter. Do you have certain theory who's body was observed & autopsy out there?
Scorpionchik has a point with the transport of the body in the plane since it could be delayed for whatever reason. Not likely, but possible. There is still the option that the assisted suicide took place at Carolwood Drive though, but so far i have had no reply to my question if it's possible to die in another state where it's not (yet) legal.
Besides the plane-issue, I have not seen one solid argument against the real corpse theory, other than opinions based on emotions. Itsher, who decides what is sick and what isn't? Do you think this hoax is one big PR stunt, or can you wrap your mind around the idea that this may be a big global sting operation which has been going on for quite some time, where MJ might not have the last say on everything? Would the use of a dead body be illigal in this case? I don't know. Can you back up that claim?
Don't get me wrong, I am not in favor of the dead body theory, but because I think this is bigger than anyone of us can comprehend and because I myself and some others in this discussion do not see it as sick or morbid, I still think it's very possible, until someone can show me otherwise. A real body means less people involved, no body at all means many people involved and risky since there would be an empty stretcher. A double who died seems way too coincidental, a double that would be alive or MJ himself doesn't match the description of the EMT's and the doctor that the person was long gone, plus they all have to be in on it in this case as well, since you can't perform CPR on a person that is alive and kicking, plus MJ or the double couldn't fake a cardiac arrest. I would buy the dummy story if it could fool an EMT (doctor not necessary, since Cooper called the TOD which fits into the numerology, therefore she MUST be in) and maybe some nurses present in the hospital room, but I doubt it.
Does anyone know how many people were working on the body at UCLA?
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."A-fucking-men. No Body.
You guys are going to extreme, elaborate lengths to argue that there COULD have been a body. Yeah well MJ could have gotten in the space shuttle and blasted off to the moon. After all he is the MOONwalker. It's possible you know. Don't make me post a thousand links and videos about civilian space travel...
A dead body is not logical, it doesn't make sense, it's totally out of character, and it's incredibly complicated, not to mention scientifically and biologically very difficult (if not impossible, you can't entubulate a corpse) as well as illegal. I've proved all that already, I'm done, carry on with your bad selves.
BS. I gave plenty.
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And that's after two Black SUV sped off from the property behind the ambulance...then followed by the paparazzi...
Therefore Ben Evensted has told another lie. He was NOT the car behind the ambulance. They were both the security guards cars..
Anybody in the Carolwood home that day would be in Michael's circle of trust. He had to escape unnoticed whether there was a dummy or dead body anyways so the dummy is just easier on so many levels. I still think there were two dummies, one in the ambulance photo and the other a frail old guy.
The ambulance photo proves to me that the paramedics were in on it. If it was a frail old guy they transported they would've seen the photo and said, "Hey, wait a minute!!" because the guy in that photo is clearly not what they described. They also refer to the body as "it".
Faking one's death is not an easy task and you do need certain people to be in on it initially. Not everyone in the house had to be necessarily - I'm sure Michael's room was off-limits or whoever didn't know what was going on would've been ushered away and out of sight. The people who transport the dummy know, the doctor at UCLA knows as does the coroner. That's not too many people in my opinion.
I keep thinking about Ben's "slip up" of "the other day..." and I think this was deliberate to let us know that this situation happened on another day. I personally believe, like others, that the famous ambulance photo and the photos of the body going in the hospital were done prior to June 25th. This may have been part of the secretive Dome Project where they shot specific photos in a movie lot at an undisclosed location. I think a dummy or Michael or a double was used for the photos. I am not sure. I would have to look closer at these photos to figure if the person is even a real person to determine the dummy theory. Anyway, I think the photos were done prior to June 25th for a few reasons. 1) They can set up the right lighting, angle, positioning of EMTs and the possible leaf pattern (if you believe it was there and not photoshopped in). 2) In the photo of the body being pushed in the hospital, there is really no crowd around and there are a few photos. Plus, there is no video of this scene, only photos. (Unless I missed something. Please let me know if I did.) With this in mind, it would be easier to stage the photos and even use a dummy that is mechanically-controlled to make it look like MJ was sitting up on the stretcher. It may sound far-fetch but it is possible.
I think they recreated the scenario on June 25th and this time taped it and had the same people that were involved with the staged photo shoot. Again, I think a dummy was used on this day. No need to have a real body if they are involved with the photoshoot.
That's my theory. I'm sure there are tons of holes. Please feel free to poke at them. Unfortunately, I haven't had time to really investigate as of lately but I'm still reading and lurking around. I think there is a reason why TS keeps emphasizing on this other day and I'm guessing this could be the reason.
Yes, that was never my point. I KNOW it's illegal in California, but I want to know if a patient from Washington for exaple, can choose WHERE he wants to self-administer the drugs, OUTside the state where it is legal, but being a Washington resident. No doctor has to be there on the day itself, so that means he can administer it wherever he wants. The doctor did everything according the law, and he doesn't have to be at his patient's side, so he can't help it if he flies to Cali. And the patient himself will be dead and can't be charged either. So my guess is that he could very well have commited assisted suicide at Carolwood Drive.
@bec, I have seen your arguments and I replied to them as well, if I haven't missed any. So far I'm not yet convinced, so the real body theory is not yet debunked for me.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."It is legal in CA. See my edited post above & link <!-- m -->http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=76713<!-- m -->
That's a different situation. That's removing a feeding tube. Death is slow and timing is unpredictable. Can take hours, can take days.
I reread my blog from 2009 and early 2010. I'm sticking with my research and my gut in this one. There was no dead body used in the course of this hoax. If I'm wrong then I've been wrong about a lot of things along the way, but the record shows that's not been the case. If I'm wrong then all laughs on me. I don't think I'm wrong.
Doesn't look like you can really plan it like that. I think self-administering lethal drugs is not really a good option, but this is even worse. <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
And they condemn us for our euthanasia policy? Okay... <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."TS said:
The fewer - the better. Not the fewest - the best. TS could've said that if there really was a dead body because that probably would have the least amount of people in on it. But TS said fewer and better. That could mean the hoax operated on a less-than-ideal scenario for the body, which I would think would be the use of a dummy. Maybe I'm twisting TS's words but TS tends to word things very carefully.
I am under the impression that TS wants the dead body theory to be de-bunked as that is what the last paragraph focused on. Otherwise he's almost telling us it was a dead body and it's not TS's style to give it away right off the bat like that. We haven't even figured out the leaf-pattern thing yet.