i am not sure if this is the best place for this question but hey leave it to me to get off topic. <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: --> if grace was not with the kids as a nanny when this happened and michael was gone until morning hours for rehearsals where were the kids and who was with them?
"In December 2008 someone called in a radio show in the United States and claimed Michael Jackson had died from a drug overdose. After investigation it was all put down to a hoax, but not before many distraught fans had heard the news and a local TV station reported it."
Same exact thing! It is said a mannequin was used but the e.m.t noticed what it was not human. Was it a test run for the real attempt or a botched hoax?
One June 25,2009 it seems everything worked perfect on the part that all the media bought it hook.line and sinker,while the ambulance went to the hospital,as Mj was heading to LAX as per using Jermaine's slip up,He said that “Michael was not with us way before he arrived to the airport.” . 2 days later after the "death" "Michael’s trainer admitted that Michael loved pulling pranks, such as sending mannequins in ambulances to throw off the Paparrazzi." A clue to the masses,but no one but a few thousand begin to pick up on some inconsistencies.I am no way saying this is correct but only using clues that have been given to us,who else can shut down a airport for 2 hours,other than the F.B.I.,A mysterious private jet departed from the airport during this time. The staff on the airport had been told to ignore the plane.Who told them to ignore the plane? My money is with the F.B.I! <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.
1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility <!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002<!-- m --> ... _death.htm If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.
2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu<!-- m --> ... ful-death/ also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.
1- I do not believe a long dead person was used but someone who died very close to that time was used and the room was kept hot to keep the body warm. I didn't understand what you wanted to mean with "a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology"? I do not think the numerology debunks a person who died close to 12.21 if that is what you mean with it. Why would it be so hard to find someone who died in the morning of June 25th?
2- We have had many contradicting stories about where MJ "died". One of them is, he died at the hospital. First of we do not know if this statement came from the hospital but we kind of heard it from Murray himself. Anything can come from Murray as he's the key person of the hoax. Even if it came from the hospital, as I wrote before I do believe that very few key people were used in the hoax from all of the places like the coroner, the hospital etc.
Sorry Love, I'm just eager to do this thing and have to leave for work soon.
I'm chomping at the bit, lol. I got my hoax back on via TS.
(Ps. MisTrinity333, numerology debunks the terminal patient theory.)
I never said terminal patient...from my notes with kittycat10100 pg 3
"This brings us to who was in the house. Who did they put in the ambulance and take to UCLA.If they were working with a medical forensic doctor DR. A. the colleague of Dr. Murray; then he could get a John Doe who is either critical or recently died and take to the house to the doctor's room. He was not in MJ's bed, and they made the room as hot as possible to try to keep the body warm. There are too many unexplained things that make it less likely that MJ had disappeared and was not taken to the hospital.
The fact that no one has identified or spoken to the doctor who received MJ's body and coded him at UCLA hospital or that he/she did not announce the death at the press conference is unheard of. It is not difficult for a physician to purchase an unidentified person - John Doe/Jane Doe. They are used for training physicians on procedures etc. I think in this case - a medical legal forensic doctor- Dr. M's colleague may have access to these John Doe bodies. They had the right fit. That is why no one from the house- Kai Chase or any of the housekeepers were called for help; which is unusual in a cardiac arrest where you need as many hands as possible to help with compression and passing things.
This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.
All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.
And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.
Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.
1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility <!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm<!-- m --> If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.
2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/<!-- m --> also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.
Saying, "well the FBI are involved so that makes anything possible" is a cop out, in my opinion. I almost wish the FBI thing was thrown out of the discussion because it's like saying "well they used magical powers so anything is possible"... we might as well throw all logic and common sense out the table if we are to fall back on FBI involvement every time we hit a roadblock in hypothesis.
Either Docs at UCLA were:
1. Fooled (ruled out by point #1)
2. Unaware (kept on need-to-know basis, "the patient did not make it"-end of briefing, leaves no trace)
3. In On It (any body totally unnecessary)
But I believe at least Dr. Cooper needs to be in on it, as he/she has made statements (refer to point #1) and has sat on the stand at Prelim.
So I pose the open question again, who would the use of a real body be trying to fool???
Brilliant post Bec! No point faffing around acquiring, maintaining (hot or cold??), transporting and disposing of a corpse, in an attempt to fool the key people who had to be in on it anyway! No point. No body.
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?
What's the chances ( the real, tangible, statistical chances) that a 50-ish year old, slim, average height, light skinned person close enough resembling MJ with no features (facial hair, moles, large nose, wrong hair color) immediately giving away that it isn't MJ, died in LA on the morning of 6/25/09? And after that, how'd they get this body to Carrolwood? You'd have to run the statistics but at first glance, it's a serious long shot. Too many external variables to consider (listed above) and not to mention, it's been debunked in past discussions.
Regardless, does that mean UCLA indeed did successfully regain a heartbeat in this person? Medical miracle!
Also regardless, who was this designed to fool?
We have facts and statistics of probability that debunk these things.
Hello everybody!!! <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
I still don't have my own theory <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: --> this is just soooo hard for me, the more i try to come up with theory the more confused i get. <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> Literally my head is spinning right now <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Here are a couple of thoughts and objections i want to share with you guys, maybe it will help somebody with their own theories. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
TS mentioned this FBI article a lot of times (don't know exact number). The first time i read it i didn't pay much attention to it, it was just another clue saying that FBI is involved, but when TS mentioned it again in this redirect i found a lot of interesting stuff (i'm sorry if somebody has mentioned it before in another threat <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->)
Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial! “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year. Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.” {http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams}.
#1 Our favorite slogan is "The less people in on the hoax, the better for the hoax" <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
Each member of the fraud ring brought her own expertise to the table: Crump and Pearce, with their mortuary experience, knew all there was to know about funerals and death documents. Phlebotomist Faye Shilling knew the ins and outs of filing insurance claims, and notary Barbara Ann Lynn used her stamp to make the fake documents look legitimate.
2 people in mortuary: performed "autopsy", handled all the death related documents.
1 person: handled insurance documents (i don't know if we need him, please show me where i can read about Michael's insurance)
1 person: notary made sure that all documents look legitimate.
I still think that in Michael's hoax there are more people in on it, but remember how TS always stresses that Elvis had ONLY 6 PEOPLE IN ON IT in the beginning.
My point is that if only 4 women could pull their hoax, imagine what Michael and FBI can do?
#2 Theory about NO BODY has been used
How the scam unraveled. Two insurance companies began looking more closely at the claims and hired an investigator to ask questions. The con artists were so unnerved by this that they had the coffin supposedly holding the remains of Jim Davis unearthed. They filled the casket with a mannequin and cow parts to ensure the proper weight and then sent it to a crematory. Then, they filed phony paperwork stating that he had been cremated and had his ashes scattered over the Pacific Ocean.
#3 Of course only FBI could crack this hoax
The FBI’s Los Angeles office eventually became involved. Upon closer inspection of the life insurance policies, death certificates, funeral bills, and financial information of the ring members, our investigators gathered the evidence needed to charge the four women—whose scheme ultimately met its own demise.
On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital). If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.
Ok here i want to object a little bit. As you all know i have no medicine background whatsoever and i can't look at dead people, blood etc. From the things i've been reading today i felt very sick, but i had to do it. So here is what i found.
Everybody thinks that the room was heated to make corpse look as if he just recently died, not a couple of hours ago. Because body temperature drops when somebody dies.
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algor_mortis<!-- m -->
Algor mortis (Latin: algor—cold(ness); mortis—of death) is the reduction in body temperature following death. This is generally a steady decline until matching ambient temperature, although external factors can have a significant influence.
A measured rectal temperature can give some indication of the time of death. Although the heat conduction which leads to body cooling follows an exponential decay curve, it can be approximated as a linear process: 2° Celsius during the first hour and 1° Celsius per hour until the body nears ambient temperature.
The Glaister equation[1][2] estimates the hours elapsed since death as a linear function of the rectal temperature:
(36.9 °C - [rectal temperature in Celsius]) ×1.2
As decomposition occurs the internal body temperature tends to rise again.
My objection is that when temperature is high, it speeds up the proses of rigor mortis, which i think is much more noticeable then body temperature.
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis<!-- m -->
Heat sources such as fire can speed up the process of rigor mortis.
Experimental evaluation of rigor mortis V. Effect of various temperatures on the evolution of rigor mortis
T. Krompechera
aInstitute of Forensic Medicine, University of Geneva, passage de la Radio 8, CH-1205 Geneva Switzerland
Received 3 March 1980; accepted 6 July 1980. Available online 21 March 2004.
Abstract
Objective measurements were carried out to study the evolution of rigor mortis on rats at various temperatures.
Our experiments showed that:
(1) at 6 °C rigor mortis reaches full development between 48 and 60 hours post mortem, and is resolved at 168 hours post mortem; (2) at 24 °C rigor mortis reaches full development at 5 hours post mortem, and is resolved at 16 hours post mortem; (3) at 37 °C rigor mortis reaches full development at 3 hours post mortem, and is resolved at 6 hours post mortem; (4) the intensity of rigor mortis grows with increase in temperature (difference between values obtained at 24 °C and 37 °C); and (5) at 6 °C a “cold rigidity” was found, in addition to and independent of rigor mortis.
So to heat up the room does not make any sense to me. If here is a doctor or a nurse who can explain it to me, please do so, as i'm very confused with all that. <!-- s:| -->:|<!-- s:| --> Plus i read that Blount said that the patients body temperature was low. So who is lying? And also who said that room was very warm in the first place? (this is a real question, please let me know who said it)
As you can see i don't have any solid theory yet, but i'm working on it very hard <!-- s --><!-- s -->
You can't have an autopsy w/o a body. This person didn't have to die on THE day of the hoax; remember the room was WARM. And as Souza pointed out; it could have been someone terminal who consented to donate or assisted suicide, and was then moved. We still have no real good explanation about the oxygen tanks... <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
Notes from Kitty:
kittycat10100 I just spoke to Ed Winter regarding the MJ autopsy report. Here is a summary:
Was the MJ AR leaked or given with authorization? "It was legally obtained". This was said very deliberately, after a short pause. He went on to explain that once a security hold is lifted, certain documents, including ARs, are public records. I said "So you have less control over this than most of us think?" He said yes. If it were up to him, autopsy reports would remain private. Nothing he or the family could do to stop this. TMZ obtained and posted it legally, it was not given. Now, the thing that struck me after I hung up was he said the security hold was lifted after Murray was charged. But the AR came out the same day. Almost the same time I think.
So once again TMZ is ways ahead of the curve---is someone feeding them info or are they this good? I said "so we should take anything they say with a grain of salt?" He laughed and said, “Yes, probably. “ I asked about the Brittany Murphy leak and subsequent investigation. He said someone outside the Coroner's Office had gotten a hold of some related documentation, not the autopsy itself, while there was still a security hold on it. I asked him if he was aware of a Twitter page in Craig Harvey's name with cryptic, tantalizing comments on it. He laughed and said he didn't know anything about Twitter; he keeps all his thoughts to himself. (??) I pulled up the page Homeby... had sent and read some of it to him, also mentioning that the account was opened June 20. I asked if this is really Harvey or someone fooling around in his name. He said he really didn't know, that because you can't tell who he's talking to it's hard to interpret what he's saying.
Last night I had left a message at the Coroner's Office number for Public Relations. The web page has some Information Officer named, forget who. At 9:27 a.m. I had a message from Ed Winter answering the question I had left "Is the MJ AR, so easily available on the internet, legitimate?" His message said the TMZ version is, he couldn't vouch for anything else. Ed Winter is handling these inquiries himself? I think so. Given that both our docs find this AR to be confusing if not outright ridiculous, and the Chief Coroner has just told me it is "legit.", I think this supports my theory of Dept of Justice--Witness Protection---need to know. Only those at the top would know not every cop, coroner, sheriff, etc.
The name Soule Shaun, or Shaun Soule, that MJ was supposedly admitted under (& changed to Gershwin) has been nagging at me. Why not something bland and forgettable like Steve Johnson, Mark Smith? Under the pressure and stress of the moment, would Dr. Murray come up with Shaun Soule by himself? So I did what I do, I picked at it, and found----
Shaun, of Irish origin, a form of Sean, means "God is gracious"
There is a Soule Park---golf course, country club etc in Ojai Ca. Ojai is a beautiful rustic resort community inland from Santa Barbara. MJ could easily have heard of it, even been there........
I think he's still screwing with us.
mmlevyjones
You know it is strange how the media never mentioned any of these disruptions in LA. Why would the fire alarm go off as he comes in? Where were the other patients? Did this cancer patient state whether she saw MJ or not or just the people coming in with him. I find it strange that EMS or UCLA never talked about what happened during the code. Was he in a systole or v fib, or EMD and what they did? UCLA is the leader in the new technology - to revive people from death. They actually place the patient on bypass while they work on the heart to get it beating again. They have had great success. If MJ coded, the paramedics would have been told to come to the hospital immediately. Don't stay in the field where you can't use the new technology. Plus they don't want to mess up their success data.
I read one article from the site that talk about lockdown of the facility when MJ "died" and the strain on the security. They secured and had someone at every door, point of exit and entry because it was so uncontrollable outside the hospital. He then goes into a discussion of preparedness drill and how there are times when you do just a planned preparedness drill with lockdown and all these features. Strange, this is what I thought was going on a preparedness drill. I have seen that happen at hospitals and it looks like a real problem, but it is a drill- names are created, charts made and mannequin or people are used.
You can't have an autopsy w/o a body. This person didn't have to die on THE day of the hoax; remember the room was WARM. And as Souza pointed out; it could have been someone terminal who consented to donate or assisted suicide, and was then moved. We still have no real good explanation about the oxygen tanks... <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
It's true you can't have an autopsy without a body. BUT, you could have an autopsy report without a body, they're just pieces of paper. Death certificates can be forged, so says the FBI themselves so one could surmise that an autopsy report could also be forged, especially with the FBI's magical powers. (that one's for bec <!-- s --><!-- s --> )
Both the DC and AR have the name "Michael Joseph Jackson". I wrote this in the March 9 thread:
I’ve been thinking about the FBI’s involvement, the possible clues they’ve given and numerology.
As we all know, the FBI intended to release 333 pages on Michael Jackson on 12/21 but was delayed a day.
Here is the link I found when googling “Michael Jackson 333 pages”:
See how it clearly says “Michael Joe Jackson”. When you look at the actual 333 pages that were released, the always refer to him as “Michael Joe Jackson” or just “Michael Jackson”.
From the above link, there’s another link at the bottom of that page:
Michael Joseph Jackson
Michael Joseph Jackson, a celebrity pop star, was born on August 29, 1958. He died unexpectedly on June 25, 2009 at the age of 50.
Between 1993 and 1994 and separately between 2004 and 2005, Mr. Jackson was investigated by California law enforcement agencies for possible child molestation. He was acquitted of all such charges. The FBI provided technical and investigative assistance to these agencies during the cases. The Bureau also investigated threats made against Mr. Jackson and others by an individual who was later imprisoned for these crimes.
So when the FBI is referring to Michael being dead, they call him “Michael Joseph Jackson”. Very interesting, wouldn’t you say? A deliberate clue like the DC and a subtle reference to an Elvis parallel with the middle name? The Elvis/FBI involvement has been discussed in this thread and many know that his full name is Elvis Aron Presley but on the grave stone it says “Elvis Aaron Presley”.
So real alive Michael is Michael Joe and fake dead Michael is Michael Joseph. This to me indicates the FBI's involvement in the autopsy report AND death certificate, the clues are on their own website.
Brian Oxman claims that is was because of him the 333 pages from the FBI's MJ files were released. He said he became aware of the files in August '09 and requested their release through the Freedom of Information Act. Yet at the same time he says that as an attorney, he knew the FBI was significantly involved in some aspects of Michael's life. So Oxman makes his request, the 333 pages were released on 12/21 (day after really) and it was also Oxman who said he believed 99.9% that the ambulance photo was fake. And the autopsy was finalized on 9/9/9. Weirdness...
I agree with bec and others who say there was no body, like I said in an earlier post. Too many complications could arise in that scenario and totally unnessecary if the key people who would come into contact with the stretcher are already in on it. It's all fun and games until you poke an eye out or involve a dead body. And I realize that this hoax is not just about fun and games, it's very serious. A dead body is pretty much the only aspect of the hoax that makes me uncomfortable.
As for the oxygen tanks, I think the family put them in there when the moving van was outside the Carolwood home a day or two after June 25th because the police didn't find them until the family had come and gone. The family planted "evidence" for the hoax to move forward and the inevitable trial of Dr. Conrad Murray. Which of course has to happen before Michael returns.
But the oxygen tanks were mentioned as being there by the other cook, not Kai Chase. There's an interview here somewhere with this cook where he says he saw the tanks repeatedly being moved from upstairs to downstairs to be picked up when empty and replaced. I remember thinking at the time that it was almost as if the whole purpose of this was to make sure the tanks would be seen as there actually exists some type of device you could hook the tanks up to in the privacy of your own room to fill them with oxygen( technically this device converts something to oxygen or does something like that , i suck at all things technical its a bloody marvel i manage to join a forum let alone post stuff <!-- s --><!-- s --> ) anyway point is if MJ was in such need of all these oxygen tanks it could have been handled with discretion yet they seemed to make damn sure everyone and his dog got a good look at them so they'd have a story to tell post june 25th.
I can only speculate when the oxygen tanks were brought into the house. What I do know is that when the cops initially showed up to the Carolwood house on June 25th, they didn't find anything suspicious or out of the ordinary and said they were done there, that there would be no further investigation. Which is totally insane of them considering who "died". The police only found the oxygen tanks and a mini-pharmacy when they came back a couple of days later, after the family had gone in and left with a moving truck, if my memory serves correctly.
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.
1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility <!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002<!-- m --> ... _death.htm If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.
2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu<!-- m --> ... ful-death/ also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.
1. The body didn't fool anyone, because the EMT's actually said the body looked like it was dead for hours. We haven't heard anything from the hospital staff, so we don't know their opinion on the body. And if the person commited assisted suicide, it can be planned on a certain date, and there would also be time (if necessary) to make the patient look a little more like MJ. But not really that much, since the EMT's had NO CLUE it was him, meaning he didnt look like him.
2. We don't know if there has been a heartbeat. That was reported and also denied. But even IF there was activity, it could be because the resuscitation efforts. Even a dead heart can show activity again after endless CPR and electric shocks. It has to do with the muscles that are triggered. I am no medical expert so maybe I am explaining it wrong, so if someone knows exactly how this works, please correct me.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
I agree it sounds morbid to use a real dead body but actually the body is just an empty shell - at least this is what I think I believe after being with somebody in the moment of death. I had the feeling that the soul left that body with the last breathe, of course I can't be sure but that was the feeling at that moment. The days after, looking at that still body - that feeling became stronger.
Oh what do we really know.....
Anyway, I don't think it is so immoral or sick to use a dead body, maybe because of my personal experiences.
Anyway, if the hoax was planned for years, Michael probably had the home-hospital ride all solved and with the FBI assistance I really don't think it was that difficult to get a fresh body.
But what if - as we have reasons to believe in doubles - the story that surfaced right after death - about a person with a terminal illness who agreed to die for Michael(I know sounds more than morbid) is actually true?
And please don't tell me Michael wouldn't do that. We really don't know what he would do.
After all, MJ himself was the one with a big smile on his face at James Brown funeral, I know I saw a pic with him and others in front of the coffin and they were all smiling. And I don't mean it in a bad way, what I mean is that i believe Michael is in full awareness about what life means and what death means. He's not a child who can't handle the death thought. I think he knows very well that death is just the necessary step to another existence.
After all he was the one playing with the zoombies in Thriller at 25. He was afraid of death? I don't know, but I think he gave it a lot of thinking trying to understand, and when you think alot about it - death becomes a rather familiar notion, not so scary anymore.
This is just speculation of course.
Anyway, there is one theory I don't believe in : no body in the ambulance. I don't think that was the case because the risk was too big for someone to actually see through the window that the stretcher was empty.
But what if there's another possibility: a state close to death induced to Michael himslef with some drugs (is this possible - I don't know) and then he was revived later at UCLA?
No matter how I look at this, the easiest and less risky way is to have a dead body involved.
To do all this Michael not acted alone, he has to have the help of some government office, (FBI) i do not know, and of course that there are people involved ( some bodyguards,paramedics, someone in the hospital and in the coroner's office) was advised otherwise, it would be impossible.
If there was no body then to say that the paramedics lie, to declare that they thought that Michael seemed to a frail elderly and did not recognize him, could have been saved that statement.
There are drugs that cause even the fake death. Remember the movie Sherlock Holmes? The bandit took a drug like this and Wodson failed to realize he was still alive. I've also seen this drug being present in telenovelas from Brazil. Anybody here watched "Path of the Indies"? <!-- s --><!-- s --> <!-- s --><!-- s --> <!-- s --><!-- s -->
But speaking of real life, own Propofol can do this.
If this was used, the paramedics are out of play, but dr. Cooper and the coroner has to be in!
I do not think we will have an answer on that.
TS will still say that no matter what happened at UCLA, but this to me is the key to everything.
I know the alarm shoot for some reason, and that's no lie, as has been confirmed in a program for reporting serious about Michael's death by a Brazilian doctor who works in the pediatric UCLA. She said the alarm went off and everyone was out of the hospital where he was playing songs by Michael at high volumes. She could not tell what had happened in the fact, only after they learned that the alarm was false.
First, thank you TS for this new thread. Lots of great questions and lots of great theories so far.
I have always been leaning against the dead body theory, but Souza made some great points, and the scenario is very plausible. Still- after thinking about this for a while now and reading all the posts so far- I agree with Bec- and others who go with the “no dead body was used” for many of the reasons listed:
- It seems the easiest way to have least people involved is to just use a dummy. If we supposed the 911 call was fake, then that would mean the paramedics involvement also needed to be “fake.”- meaning they knew there was no dead body. If there was one, and the paramedics came to the scene not knowing what was up, then how does that explain the 911 call? So- simplest solution: fake 911 call, fake emergency call, paramedics knew what was going on and that there would be NO dead body and no emergency. This also explain the slow drive and stupid backing out attempts. Had they thought this was a real emergency (with a body)- they would still have pressed to get back to UCLA ASAP.
- This is the strongest point Bec brought up and also is my main point: NO paramedic would be fooled with a dead body. Rigor would have set in. Also, let’s say, hey, it was a warm room. The warm room would actually also affect faster decomposition and smells. I don’t care if Murray was a higher authority- real paramedics would NOT have attempted to revive a smelly corpse. Further down the line- again- why have a corpse? NOONE (docs, coroner, etc) would be fooled and work for hours on a dead body. So, it stands to reason that the docs and coroner were in on it- and if they were- why bother with a dead body at all(on a side note: I think there is another significance to the hot room..but that is another thread)?
- Another strong point against dead body: Logistics. Sure, we can say it might not be hard to find a dead body on June 25. BUT- you’d have to transport it, have legal issues cleared with next of kin, match the dead person to MJ somewhat, etc. If we say, assisted suicide which would cut down on all this, the issue remains that we now again have more people involved in transport etc. So, as in science’s use of Yokam’s Razor- why not go with the simplest solution possible which might be the most likely: in this case- no body at all.
- Another point: the heart beat report as also addressed by Bec. The dead body would not have had a heart beat. And if that was a fake report- again, why bother to have a dead body. Those same people giving the fake report would have to be in the know- so again: easier to have no dead body.
- The PR issue about “MJ using a dead body” is certainly of concern as well. I also think that this sticking point might be what most would remember. Also- I am considering Michael’s religious and moral views. I know in JW religion when you are dead that is it- you are “asleep” basically until judgment day. BUT- I don’t think they would ok it to haul dead bodies around when it is just as easy to use a dummy on the stretcher. I know, MJ was not a practicing JW- BUT he kept many of their views and he was raised with those views- which left a strong background. So, this is not one of the stronger points, and is more opinion than fact- but to me it still plays in.
- I used to think Michael was NOT in the ambulance. Now, knowing that he was so hands on with everything and having seen that mysterious “third” person, I think he might have been. The only thing that stomps me is that the simplest way would have been to just go to the airport straight from Carolwood while all the attention was on the ambulance. If he went to the hospital (and it is true, attention would not have been on him had he been in disguise, or simply not in “Michael Jackson getup: no wig, no makeup…) it is possible the kids said goodbye to him there- which would account for their emotional state. On the other hand, that again involves more people (helicopter pilots etc) to get him to the airport. Simpler and cleaner version: to get to the airport as hinted by Jermaine. Which is what I am going with.
.... just a thought.
If Michael used too fool the pappz with a dummy in an ambo. He must already know how to pull that trick off, right? He have done that many times before according to Lou F. So maybe that´s just whats happend on June 25? The same people helped him this day to, they know how to act and they know how to fool the pappz since they done it before. Does anyone know, pictures etc how he pulled it off before? Who helped him then and what ambo did he used?
Maybe I´m way out of line, or maybe it´s just this simple....
Michael had just key ppl involved in this, the less the better.FBI and EMT´s are part of this list.As to the body i think it was used a dummy cause it´s easier to deal with and to transport i don´t imagine having a smelly body inside the house and also they needed a corpse (as real as possible )if somebody would look through the amgulance windows.I think it would be against his believes and moral views using somebody´s body.The autopsy report is fake and imo it was already written at the beginning at the hoax.Michael is a so hand on person with everything he does.
* Yes autopsy paperwork can be fake vie FBI involvement.
* 911 call is in question because there's four versions and the call wasn't made from Carlwood correct?
* EMT's know the difference between a dummy and a dead body. <!-- s --><!-- s --> They say it looked like he had been dead for hours. You can keep a body cool to slow down rig. without "freezing" it which would be, pardon the pun; a dead give a way. Then place in a warm room to bring temp up to realistic expectations... I also heard eyes were open.
* You don't intubate or do CPR on a LIVE person playing dead. Anesthesia is called frequently to the ER or on the floors for intubation because it takes a host of sedatives and muscle relaxants to anesthetize the patient prior to putting the tube down the throat. Otherwise it is a major fight with a lot of people holding all parts of the body. No way was that going to happen to MJ or anyone else for acting purposes. There is no way anyone in the awake state would be intubated and have CPR done. <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: -->
* MJ was admitted to UCLA under the name Soule Shaun. But in one of kittycat's conversations with Assist. Chief Coroner Ed Winter, he told her "Gershwin is hospital code for hi-profile cases". You all remember Gershwin, the blood work is in his name and one of the toe tags is in his name, the other being MJ. We know toe tags are not placed on live patients, even if they are comatose. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> He left blood work and there was a urine sample in the room.
* Body logistics not that difficult for FBI. Let's not assume Michael had anything to do with this...it may not have been his choice, but was done because it had to be. <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: --> This may have something to do with a sting op. In one of my last conversations with Kitty she told me doctors were going down in CA, AZ & Florida. These are docs MJ had contact with 10-20 yrs ago. Coincidence?
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
That's really the bottom line in my opinion.
This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.
All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.
And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.
Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.
1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility <!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm<!-- m --> If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.
2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/<!-- m --> also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.
Saying, "well the FBI are involved so that makes anything possible" is a cop out, in my opinion. I almost wish the FBI thing was thrown out of the discussion because it's like saying "well they used magical powers so anything is possible"... we might as well throw all logic and common sense out the table if we are to fall back on FBI involvement every time we hit a roadblock in hypothesis.
Either Docs at UCLA were:
1. Fooled (ruled out by point #1)
2. Unaware (kept on need-to-know basis, "the patient did not make it"-end of briefing, leaves no trace)
3. In On It (any body totally unnecessary)
But I believe at least Dr. Cooper needs to be in on it, as he/she has made statements (refer to point #1) and has sat on the stand at Prelim.
So I pose the open question again, who would the use of a real body be trying to fool???
Response to your #2 point bec.
TS wrote
5-8. Zone for MJ Info
Another TMZ article, just a few days before, was titled: “Conrad Murray - Michael Was Alive at UCLA” <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/<!-- m -->. Here again, if you accept the whole story, then forget the hoax; because the whole story is discussing when MJ died (at home, or UCLA)—it’s not discussing if MJ died.
Or you can connect the dots, and recognize that “Michael was alive” is the main clue—and much of the rest is unnamed or unverified “sources”. Anything that is not readily verifiable, and especially anything that is unnamed “sources”, should go straight in the garbage.
This is part of what Michael is trying to teach us. We are not to blindly trust tabloid media—or even mainstream media. Yet, just like TMZ, at times there is reliable and valuable information in the media.
For example, video interviews; it is very easy to fabricate false information in writing, but it is much harder to fabricate a video interview with someone. And even if someone did create a fake video interview (using a double, or a computer-generated image, etc): the real person would probably hear about it, and deny that it was really him.
And at this point, I should mention that as far as possible: TIAI Revealed, and the Updates, have used the above mentioned and similar types of reliable sources for information. So don’t accept something just because TIAI says it; but on the other hand, don’t fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources and documentation. Rejecting reliable information isn’t much if any better (maybe worse) than accepting unreliable information. Some people believe everything (gullible), others believe nothing (stubborn); if we want the truth, we must find a balance between those extremes.
This explanation below from TS is in regards to theories about how many people would need to be involved in the know of the hoax. Theories that have way to many people involved is unrealistic IMO. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
<!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=125&t=7194<!-- l -->
TS wrote:
Besides, the entire state of California is not in on the hoax. MJ has been planning this hoax for many years; and he had the time and influence to get a few key people in the right positions to pull it off—and yes, even government agencies still have some good people in them. Look at history: many times people in high positions have stood up against the corruption in their own system (government, or church, etc).
But MJ did not involve large quantities of people. In fact, the “three-way theory” is basically correct <!-- m -->http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpb ... 2&start=0;<!-- m --> this theory states that the fewer people “in on it”, the better (although more than three are actually involved, and the “three-way theory” does allow for more than three).
Also, as far as possible, legal loopholes were used. Nevertheless, with a hoax of this magnitude and importance: whether the line was ever crossed, between being inside or outside of legal loopholes, is a question that probably doesn’t even need to be answered.
In this update, I have gone into great detail about the timing of the hoax (as well as a few other aspects). Previously, I have gone into great detail about the reasons for the hoax <!-- m -->http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpb ... 0&sr=posts<!-- m -->. That leaves only one frontier remaining: how did MJ succeed in pulling off this massive hoax?
I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.
For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory.
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour.
This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4-38. Only a Few Would Need to Be “In On It”
Let me also clue you in on a few tricks, so that only a relatively few people would need to be “in on it”. The endlessly discussed helicopter ride to the coroner: it could’ve had a living and/or a dead body in it, but not MJ; and yet none of the people in the copter, or working that situation, would’ve had any clue that MJ was alive.
All you would need to do is create a diversion for the media and public: the helicopter and all would be a big show for the media, while they transport the (supposedly) “real” MJ’s body in an unmarked vehicle—this would keep MJ’s body safer. And all the people “involved” in that diversion operation would play right along, and obey without question like good little boys and girls, thinking all the while that MJ’s dead body was being transported in some unmarked vehicle (and not even questioning whether or not MJ was actually dead). And even if they suspected later that MJ is alive, how would they know? They would not know, they would just suspect it (like hoax believers).
The fact that it’s a criminal case is another good alibi for secrecy and cover-up; this way, nobody thinks twice when they’re told not to talk about what they did or did not see at UCLA on June 25 (or other times and places).
Some have said that Forest Lawn (FL) would need to be in on the hoax; and maybe they are, but maybe not. If there was an actual dead body used during at least some of the process: then a dead body could’ve been at FL, even though it was not MJ. And sooner or later, the family could say: “We’ve decided to bury MJ somewhere else; but for privacy and security reasons, we want the public to think that he is buried here.”
They might even have FL sign confidentiality agreements, promising not to let anyone know that MJ was not buried at FL. Of course FL would still get paid, because the family did purchase space there <!-- m -->http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/04/us/04jackson.html;<!-- m --> and since FL got their money, they would not care where MJ was actually buried, and that would be the end of it—FL might never imagine that MJ is still alive.
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
That's really the bottom line in my opinion.
This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.
All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.
And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.
Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.
A real body creates Realism in the way the events happen. Not everything can be seen by the public as acting. Improv is the name of the game. This hoax goes way deeper than an image repair. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
Using 1 or maybe 2 different corpses at different times is a small thing in the scheme of how big this hoax is when it comes to exposing harmful things, getting those harmful things taken off the market and starting a process to get Propofol changed to a controlled drug. The way things are now Propofol is an uncontrolled drug and can be obtained very easily by a Dr. who has a liscense and also by a person with a script. The pharmacy in Nevada was distributing Propofol to Murray as if it was no big deal. That is why that pharmacy is now shut down. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
The events that have happened since MJ died because of Propofol have been incredible. MJ used himself as bait for a sting operation that far out weighs a cadaver being used in the process. He also used Propofol as the drug of choice so that it would cause great attention to that drug. The Propofol from a manufacture making it was shown to have tainted lot numbers. The manufactures have stopped making it here in the USA. There is a timeline link below that shows how far back some issues started and caused faulty infusion pumps to be recalled. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
Quote from my 2nd post in this thread.
I believe that one part of the sting operation deals with the drug problems in Hollywood and the over prescribing of meds by the doctors. I also believe it has to do with FDA issues and the manufactors of Propofol. Big pharmaceuticals manufactors do not care what goes into the drugs or the side effects as long as they make a profit. Tainted medicines are resold all the time in order to dump them and make a profit.
TS_comments wrote:
However, if key people in the FBI are cooperating with LAFD and MJ: then when the truth comes out, all they have to do is show success in catching some public corruption through this process--and all is well that ends well. After all, once again, that is their "top priority among criminal investigations" <!-- m -->http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption<!-- m -->.
Comments
I'm chomping at the bit, lol. I got my hoax back on via TS.
(Ps. MisTrinity333, numerology debunks the terminal patient theory.)
Same exact thing! It is said a mannequin was used but the e.m.t noticed what it was not human. Was it a test run for the real attempt or a botched hoax?
One June 25,2009 it seems everything worked perfect on the part that all the media bought it hook.line and sinker,while the ambulance went to the hospital,as Mj was heading to LAX as per using Jermaine's slip up,He said that “Michael was not with us way before he arrived to the airport.” . 2 days later after the "death" "Michael’s trainer admitted that Michael loved pulling pranks, such as sending mannequins in ambulances to throw off the Paparrazzi." A clue to the masses,but no one but a few thousand begin to pick up on some inconsistencies.I am no way saying this is correct but only using clues that have been given to us,who else can shut down a airport for 2 hours,other than the F.B.I.,A mysterious private jet departed from the airport during this time. The staff on the airport had been told to ignore the plane.Who told them to ignore the plane? My money is with the F.B.I! <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
1- I do not believe a long dead person was used but someone who died very close to that time was used and the room was kept hot to keep the body warm. I didn't understand what you wanted to mean with "a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology"? I do not think the numerology debunks a person who died close to 12.21 if that is what you mean with it. Why would it be so hard to find someone who died in the morning of June 25th?
2- We have had many contradicting stories about where MJ "died". One of them is, he died at the hospital. First of we do not know if this statement came from the hospital but we kind of heard it from Murray himself. Anything can come from Murray as he's the key person of the hoax. Even if it came from the hospital, as I wrote before I do believe that very few key people were used in the hoax from all of the places like the coroner, the hospital etc.
I never said terminal patient...from my notes with kittycat10100 pg 3
Brilliant post Bec! No point faffing around acquiring, maintaining (hot or cold??), transporting and disposing of a corpse, in an attempt to fool the key people who had to be in on it anyway! No point. No body.
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?
Regardless, does that mean UCLA indeed did successfully regain a heartbeat in this person? Medical miracle!
Also regardless, who was this designed to fool?
We have facts and statistics of probability that debunk these things.
I still don't have my own theory <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: --> this is just soooo hard for me, the more i try to come up with theory the more confused i get. <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> Literally my head is spinning right now <!-- s
Here are a couple of thoughts and objections i want to share with you guys, maybe it will help somebody with their own theories. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
TS mentioned this FBI article a lot of times (don't know exact number). The first time i read it i didn't pay much attention to it, it was just another clue saying that FBI is involved, but when TS mentioned it again in this redirect i found a lot of interesting stuff (i'm sorry if somebody has mentioned it before in another threat <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->)
#1 Our favorite slogan is "The less people in on the hoax, the better for the hoax" <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
2 people in mortuary: performed "autopsy", handled all the death related documents.
1 person: handled insurance documents (i don't know if we need him, please show me where i can read about Michael's insurance)
1 person: notary made sure that all documents look legitimate.
I still think that in Michael's hoax there are more people in on it, but remember how TS always stresses that Elvis had ONLY 6 PEOPLE IN ON IT in the beginning.
My point is that if only 4 women could pull their hoax, imagine what Michael and FBI can do?
#2 Theory about NO BODY has been used
#3 Of course only FBI could crack this hoax
Ok here i want to object a little bit. As you all know i have no medicine background whatsoever and i can't look at dead people, blood etc. From the things i've been reading today i felt very sick, but i had to do it. So here is what i found.
Everybody thinks that the room was heated to make corpse look as if he just recently died, not a couple of hours ago. Because body temperature drops when somebody dies.
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algor_mortis<!-- m -->
My objection is that when temperature is high, it speeds up the proses of rigor mortis, which i think is much more noticeable then body temperature.
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis<!-- m --> <!-- m -->http://www.sciencedirect.com<!-- m --> (sorry the full link is too big)
So to heat up the room does not make any sense to me. If here is a doctor or a nurse who can explain it to me, please do so, as i'm very confused with all that. <!-- s:| -->:|<!-- s:| --> Plus i read that Blount said that the patients body temperature was low. So who is lying? And also who said that room was very warm in the first place? (this is a real question, please let me know who said it)
As you can see i don't have any solid theory yet, but i'm working on it very hard <!-- s
L.O.V.E you all! <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
Notes from Kitty:
kittycat10100
I just spoke to Ed Winter regarding the MJ autopsy report. Here is a summary:
Was the MJ AR leaked or given with authorization? "It was legally obtained". This was said very deliberately, after a short pause. He went on to explain that once a security hold is lifted, certain documents, including ARs, are public records. I said "So you have less control over this than most of us think?" He said yes. If it were up to him, autopsy reports would remain private. Nothing he or the family could do to stop this. TMZ obtained and posted it legally, it was not given. Now, the thing that struck me after I hung up was he said the security hold was lifted after Murray was charged. But the AR came out the same day. Almost the same time I think.
So once again TMZ is ways ahead of the curve---is someone feeding them info or are they this good? I said "so we should take anything they say with a grain of salt?" He laughed and said, “Yes, probably. “ I asked about the Brittany Murphy leak and subsequent investigation. He said someone outside the Coroner's Office had gotten a hold of some related documentation, not the autopsy itself, while there was still a security hold on it. I asked him if he was aware of a Twitter page in Craig Harvey's name with cryptic, tantalizing comments on it. He laughed and said he didn't know anything about Twitter; he keeps all his thoughts to himself. (??) I pulled up the page Homeby... had sent and read some of it to him, also mentioning that the account was opened June 20. I asked if this is really Harvey or someone fooling around in his name. He said he really didn't know, that because you can't tell who he's talking to it's hard to interpret what he's saying.
Last night I had left a message at the Coroner's Office number for Public Relations. The web page has some Information Officer named, forget who. At 9:27 a.m. I had a message from Ed Winter answering the question I had left "Is the MJ AR, so easily available on the internet, legitimate?" His message said the TMZ version is, he couldn't vouch for anything else. Ed Winter is handling these inquiries himself? I think so. Given that both our docs find this AR to be confusing if not outright ridiculous, and the Chief Coroner has just told me it is "legit.", I think this supports my theory of Dept of Justice--Witness Protection---need to know. Only those at the top would know not every cop, coroner, sheriff, etc.
The name Soule Shaun, or Shaun Soule, that MJ was supposedly admitted under (& changed to Gershwin) has been nagging at me. Why not something bland and forgettable like Steve Johnson, Mark Smith? Under the pressure and stress of the moment, would Dr. Murray come up with Shaun Soule by himself? So I did what I do, I picked at it, and found----
Shaun, of Irish origin, a form of Sean, means "God is gracious"
There is a Soule Park---golf course, country club etc in Ojai Ca. Ojai is a beautiful rustic resort community inland from Santa Barbara. MJ could easily have heard of it, even been there........
I think he's still screwing with us.
It's true you can't have an autopsy without a body. BUT, you could have an autopsy report without a body, they're just pieces of paper. Death certificates can be forged, so says the FBI themselves so one could surmise that an autopsy report could also be forged, especially with the FBI's magical powers. (that one's for bec <!-- s
Both the DC and AR have the name "Michael Joseph Jackson". I wrote this in the March 9 thread:
So real alive Michael is Michael Joe and fake dead Michael is Michael Joseph. This to me indicates the FBI's involvement in the autopsy report AND death certificate, the clues are on their own website.
Brian Oxman claims that is was because of him the 333 pages from the FBI's MJ files were released. He said he became aware of the files in August '09 and requested their release through the Freedom of Information Act. Yet at the same time he says that as an attorney, he knew the FBI was significantly involved in some aspects of Michael's life. So Oxman makes his request, the 333 pages were released on 12/21 (day after really) and it was also Oxman who said he believed 99.9% that the ambulance photo was fake. And the autopsy was finalized on 9/9/9. Weirdness...
I agree with bec and others who say there was no body, like I said in an earlier post. Too many complications could arise in that scenario and totally unnessecary if the key people who would come into contact with the stretcher are already in on it. It's all fun and games until you poke an eye out or involve a dead body. And I realize that this hoax is not just about fun and games, it's very serious. A dead body is pretty much the only aspect of the hoax that makes me uncomfortable.
As for the oxygen tanks, I think the family put them in there when the moving van was outside the Carolwood home a day or two after June 25th because the police didn't find them until the family had come and gone. The family planted "evidence" for the hoax to move forward and the inevitable trial of Dr. Conrad Murray. Which of course has to happen before Michael returns.
1. The body didn't fool anyone, because the EMT's actually said the body looked like it was dead for hours. We haven't heard anything from the hospital staff, so we don't know their opinion on the body. And if the person commited assisted suicide, it can be planned on a certain date, and there would also be time (if necessary) to make the patient look a little more like MJ. But not really that much, since the EMT's had NO CLUE it was him, meaning he didnt look like him.
2. We don't know if there has been a heartbeat. That was reported and also denied. But even IF there was activity, it could be because the resuscitation efforts. Even a dead heart can show activity again after endless CPR and electric shocks. It has to do with the muscles that are triggered. I am no medical expert so maybe I am explaining it wrong, so if someone knows exactly how this works, please correct me.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."Oh what do we really know.....
Anyway, I don't think it is so immoral or sick to use a dead body, maybe because of my personal experiences.
But what if - as we have reasons to believe in doubles - the story that surfaced right after death - about a person with a terminal illness who agreed to die for Michael(I know sounds more than morbid) is actually true?
And please don't tell me Michael wouldn't do that. We really don't know what he would do.
After all, MJ himself was the one with a big smile on his face at James Brown funeral, I know I saw a pic with him and others in front of the coffin and they were all smiling. And I don't mean it in a bad way, what I mean is that i believe Michael is in full awareness about what life means and what death means. He's not a child who can't handle the death thought. I think he knows very well that death is just the necessary step to another existence.
After all he was the one playing with the zoombies in Thriller at 25. He was afraid of death? I don't know, but I think he gave it a lot of thinking trying to understand, and when you think alot about it - death becomes a rather familiar notion, not so scary anymore.
This is just speculation of course.
Anyway, there is one theory I don't believe in : no body in the ambulance. I don't think that was the case because the risk was too big for someone to actually see through the window that the stretcher was empty.
But what if there's another possibility: a state close to death induced to Michael himslef with some drugs (is this possible - I don't know) and then he was revived later at UCLA?
No matter how I look at this, the easiest and less risky way is to have a dead body involved.
If there was no body then to say that the paramedics lie, to declare that they thought that Michael seemed to a frail elderly and did not recognize him, could have been saved that statement.
But speaking of real life, own Propofol can do this.
If this was used, the paramedics are out of play, but dr. Cooper and the coroner has to be in!
I do not think we will have an answer on that.
TS will still say that no matter what happened at UCLA, but this to me is the key to everything.
I know the alarm shoot for some reason, and that's no lie, as has been confirmed in a program for reporting serious about Michael's death by a Brazilian doctor who works in the pediatric UCLA. She said the alarm went off and everyone was out of the hospital where he was playing songs by Michael at high volumes. She could not tell what had happened in the fact, only after they learned that the alarm was false.
I have always been leaning against the dead body theory, but Souza made some great points, and the scenario is very plausible. Still- after thinking about this for a while now and reading all the posts so far- I agree with Bec- and others who go with the “no dead body was used” for many of the reasons listed:
- It seems the easiest way to have least people involved is to just use a dummy. If we supposed the 911 call was fake, then that would mean the paramedics involvement also needed to be “fake.”- meaning they knew there was no dead body. If there was one, and the paramedics came to the scene not knowing what was up, then how does that explain the 911 call? So- simplest solution: fake 911 call, fake emergency call, paramedics knew what was going on and that there would be NO dead body and no emergency. This also explain the slow drive and stupid backing out attempts. Had they thought this was a real emergency (with a body)- they would still have pressed to get back to UCLA ASAP.
- This is the strongest point Bec brought up and also is my main point: NO paramedic would be fooled with a dead body. Rigor would have set in. Also, let’s say, hey, it was a warm room. The warm room would actually also affect faster decomposition and smells. I don’t care if Murray was a higher authority- real paramedics would NOT have attempted to revive a smelly corpse. Further down the line- again- why have a corpse? NOONE (docs, coroner, etc) would be fooled and work for hours on a dead body. So, it stands to reason that the docs and coroner were in on it- and if they were- why bother with a dead body at all(on a side note: I think there is another significance to the hot room..but that is another thread)?
- Another strong point against dead body: Logistics. Sure, we can say it might not be hard to find a dead body on June 25. BUT- you’d have to transport it, have legal issues cleared with next of kin, match the dead person to MJ somewhat, etc. If we say, assisted suicide which would cut down on all this, the issue remains that we now again have more people involved in transport etc. So, as in science’s use of Yokam’s Razor- why not go with the simplest solution possible which might be the most likely: in this case- no body at all.
- Another point: the heart beat report as also addressed by Bec. The dead body would not have had a heart beat. And if that was a fake report- again, why bother to have a dead body. Those same people giving the fake report would have to be in the know- so again: easier to have no dead body.
- The PR issue about “MJ using a dead body” is certainly of concern as well. I also think that this sticking point might be what most would remember. Also- I am considering Michael’s religious and moral views. I know in JW religion when you are dead that is it- you are “asleep” basically until judgment day. BUT- I don’t think they would ok it to haul dead bodies around when it is just as easy to use a dummy on the stretcher. I know, MJ was not a practicing JW- BUT he kept many of their views and he was raised with those views- which left a strong background. So, this is not one of the stronger points, and is more opinion than fact- but to me it still plays in.
- I used to think Michael was NOT in the ambulance. Now, knowing that he was so hands on with everything and having seen that mysterious “third” person, I think he might have been. The only thing that stomps me is that the simplest way would have been to just go to the airport straight from Carolwood while all the attention was on the ambulance. If he went to the hospital (and it is true, attention would not have been on him had he been in disguise, or simply not in “Michael Jackson getup: no wig, no makeup…) it is possible the kids said goodbye to him there- which would account for their emotional state. On the other hand, that again involves more people (helicopter pilots etc) to get him to the airport. Simpler and cleaner version: to get to the airport as hinted by Jermaine. Which is what I am going with.
If Michael used too fool the pappz with a dummy in an ambo. He must already know how to pull that trick off, right? He have done that many times before according to Lou F. So maybe that´s just whats happend on June 25? The same people helped him this day to, they know how to act and they know how to fool the pappz since they done it before. Does anyone know, pictures etc how he pulled it off before? Who helped him then and what ambo did he used?
Maybe I´m way out of line, or maybe it´s just this simple....
L.O.V.E
* 911 call is in question because there's four versions and the call wasn't made from Carlwood correct?
* EMT's know the difference between a dummy and a dead body. <!-- s
* You don't intubate or do CPR on a LIVE person playing dead. Anesthesia is called frequently to the ER or on the floors for intubation because it takes a host of sedatives and muscle relaxants to anesthetize the patient prior to putting the tube down the throat. Otherwise it is a major fight with a lot of people holding all parts of the body. No way was that going to happen to MJ or anyone else for acting purposes. There is no way anyone in the awake state would be intubated and have CPR done. <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: -->
* MJ was admitted to UCLA under the name Soule Shaun. But in one of kittycat's conversations with Assist. Chief Coroner Ed Winter, he told her "Gershwin is hospital code for hi-profile cases". You all remember Gershwin, the blood work is in his name and one of the toe tags is in his name, the other being MJ. We know toe tags are not placed on live patients, even if they are comatose. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> He left blood work and there was a urine sample in the room.
* Body logistics not that difficult for FBI. Let's not assume Michael had anything to do with this...it may not have been his choice, but was done because it had to be. <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: --> This may have something to do with a sting op. In one of my last conversations with Kitty she told me doctors were going down in CA, AZ & Florida. These are docs MJ had contact with 10-20 yrs ago. Coincidence?
<!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=125&t=7194<!-- l --> A real body creates Realism in the way the events happen. Not everything can be seen by the public as acting. Improv is the name of the game. This hoax goes way deeper than an image repair. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
Using 1 or maybe 2 different corpses at different times is a small thing in the scheme of how big this hoax is when it comes to exposing harmful things, getting those harmful things taken off the market and starting a process to get Propofol changed to a controlled drug. The way things are now Propofol is an uncontrolled drug and can be obtained very easily by a Dr. who has a liscense and also by a person with a script. The pharmacy in Nevada was distributing Propofol to Murray as if it was no big deal. That is why that pharmacy is now shut down. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
The events that have happened since MJ died because of Propofol have been incredible. MJ used himself as bait for a sting operation that far out weighs a cadaver being used in the process. He also used Propofol as the drug of choice so that it would cause great attention to that drug. The Propofol from a manufacture making it was shown to have tainted lot numbers. The manufactures have stopped making it here in the USA. There is a timeline link below that shows how far back some issues started and caused faulty infusion pumps to be recalled. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
Quote from my 2nd post in this thread. Here is part of it’s ALL for L.O.V.E.
<!-- m -->http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-14/heal ... =PM:HEALTH<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-15/heal ... =PM:HEALTH<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/11/michael-j ... las-vegas/<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/13/propofol- ... -pharmacy/<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/Dru ... 209227.htm<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10769777<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://www.anesthesiazone.com/featured- ... x?id=31878<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://www.erowid.org/pharms/propofol/p ... _law.shtml<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_r ... fr0723.htm<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/MichaelJa ... id=8302959<!-- m -->
Don't forget Craig Harvey is an actor as well..... Craig Harvey was in the Coroners Van and collected the body for transportation.....
Different angles of the same pictures paint a different story....... <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->