I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?
I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?
Wow, now that's food for thought.
I think that's an excellent defense to use......... But then again what if that's not in Michael's plan.
I think the media would go crazy if Murray used Michael faking his death as a defense. Maybe the media will stop and take a good look at all of the clues that were in front of their faces this whole time.
Hey! Michael could be planning to wake the media and in turn wake the whole world by using the hoax as Murray's defense.
Now I feel like I've gone to deep into this. <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->
I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?
Wow, now that's food for thought.
I think that's an excellent defense to use......... But then again what if that's not in Michael's plan.
I think the media would go crazy if Murray used Michael faking his death as a defense. Maybe the media will stop and take a good look at all of the clues that were in front of their faces this whole time.
Hey! Michael could be planning to wake the media and in turn wake the whole world by using the hoax as Murray's defense.
Now I feel like I've gone to deep into this. <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->
Michael likes to be different and go beyond what everybody else has done. Elvis' doctor went to trial and was found not guilty...if MJ wanted to make his trial even better than that he could make that Murray's defense just that...who knows?
About the media, some might look at the clues like you said and realize MJ is alive...but the fans might not, they already think Murray is already rubbing salt in the wound by 'following' Janet, walking down the street like nothing happened etc.
Or maybe Murray's defense will be that MJ killed himself, if this is supposed to be a contrast to MJ's trial in 2005.
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.
1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility <!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002<!-- m --> ... _death.htm If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.
2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu<!-- m --> ... ful-death/ also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.
1. The body didn't fool anyone, because the EMT's actually said the body looked like it was dead for hours. We haven't heard anything from the hospital staff, so we don't know their opinion on the body. And if the person commited assisted suicide, it can be planned on a certain date, and there would also be time (if necessary) to make the patient look a little more like MJ. But not really that much, since the EMT's had NO CLUE it was him, meaning he didnt look like him.
2. We don't know if there has been a heartbeat. That was reported and also denied. But even IF there was activity, it could be because the resuscitation efforts. Even a dead heart can show activity again after endless CPR and electric shocks. It has to do with the muscles that are triggered. I am no medical expert so maybe I am explaining it wrong, so if someone knows exactly how this works, please correct me.
As far as point 1)- yes, but there is a difference between having been dead for one hour or so, or the hours it would require to get a corpse into the Carolwood. Also, if we suppose there was a real dead body, do you also suppose there was a real autopsy? So, the things that would have to fall into place: Find someone who is dead on June 25, but not for too long as being frozen would have been a give-away. Also, again, if there had been decomposition smell, the EMTs would have REALLY smelled a rat (no pun intended)- no one has mentioned decomposition smell in the depositions. In the hot room with a body dead for hours- there would have been that element.
Then we have the logistics of having this person die at a certain time, on that day, and he would have been similar enough to pass for MJ in autopsy findings as to not make it too obvious. Also, coroner (if not in on events and there was a real autopsy) would have known real cause of death as room temperature is included in the equation. Add to that the paperwork that would have to be in place to make all this legal- as well as logistics such as transporting the body etc.
It just requires too much work and too many people to be involved. Why not have the FBI brief the paramedics instead on their “role”- and have a dummy in the ambulance (to make it look like something was on the stretcher)? It’s so much simpler. In science we always go with the simplest explanation and ONLY if that doesn’t work go on.
Point 2- You can have short term muscle activity, but NO medical personnel mistakes that for actual heart beat as the effect is known. Also, this only goes for a very short period, a beat or two- it would not count as any sustainable heartbeat. Furthermore- paramedics brief medical staff. If they brief them that they suspect the patient has been dead for hours, it is highly doubtful that medical staff would have continued CPR for hours (unless there was a heartbeat; which would have been impossible if we have an actual dead body). To do that, would risk severe brain damage at this point in time. This part has always been a weak point, btw- if we say dead body or no dead body and it was just part of the story. The amount of time that passed makes HOURS of working on the patient without a heartbeat highly unlikely and even medically unethical.
So, it much more likely, that the “heart beat” story was just part of the overall “story of those involved.
I still stand by “no dead body” and paramedics (2- 3rd is either FBI or MJ in my opinion) in on it.
I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?
Wow, now that's food for thought.
I think that's an excellent defense to use......... But then again what if that's not in Michael's plan.
I think the media would go crazy if Murray used Michael faking his death as a defense. Maybe the media will stop and take a good look at all of the clues that were in front of their faces this whole time.
Hey! Michael could be planning to wake the media and in turn wake the whole world by using the hoax as Murray's defense.
Now I feel like I've gone to deep into this. <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->
Michael likes to be different and go beyond what everybody else has done. Elvis' doctor went to trial and was found not guilty...if MJ wanted to make his trial even better than that he could make that Murray's defense just that...who knows?
About the media, some might look at the clues like you said and realize MJ is alive...but the fans might not, they already think Murray is already rubbing salt in the wound by 'following' Janet, walking down the street like nothing happened etc.
Or maybe Murray's defense will be that MJ killed himself, if this is supposed to be a contrast to MJ's trial in 2005.
You always seem to find or remind us (or at least me) of some of the key elaments of the hoax. You are a very wise person. Thank you.
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
That's really the bottom line in my opinion.
This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.
All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.
And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.
Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.
1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility <!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm<!-- m --> If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.
2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/<!-- m --> also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.
Saying, "well the FBI are involved so that makes anything possible" is a cop out, in my opinion. I almost wish the FBI thing was thrown out of the discussion because it's like saying "well they used magical powers so anything is possible"... we might as well throw all logic and common sense out the table if we are to fall back on FBI involvement every time we hit a roadblock in hypothesis.
Either Docs at UCLA were:
1. Fooled (ruled out by point #1)
2. Unaware (kept on need-to-know basis, "the patient did not make it"-end of briefing, leaves no trace)
3. In On It (any body totally unnecessary)
But I believe at least Dr. Cooper needs to be in on it, as he/she has made statements (refer to point #1) and has sat on the stand at Prelim.
So I pose the open question again, who would the use of a real body be trying to fool???
Response to your #2 point bec.
TS wrote
5-8. Zone for MJ Info
Another TMZ article, just a few days before, was titled: “Conrad Murray - Michael Was Alive at UCLA” <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/<!-- m -->. Here again, if you accept the whole story, then forget the hoax; because the whole story is discussing when MJ died (at home, or UCLA)—it’s not discussing if MJ died.
Or you can connect the dots, and recognize that “Michael was alive” is the main clue—and much of the rest is unnamed or unverified “sources”. Anything that is not readily verifiable, and especially anything that is unnamed “sources”, should go straight in the garbage.
This is part of what Michael is trying to teach us. We are not to blindly trust tabloid media—or even mainstream media. Yet, just like TMZ, at times there is reliable and valuable information in the media.
For example, video interviews; it is very easy to fabricate false information in writing, but it is much harder to fabricate a video interview with someone. And even if someone did create a fake video interview (using a double, or a computer-generated image, etc): the real person would probably hear about it, and deny that it was really him.
And at this point, I should mention that as far as possible: TIAI Revealed, and the Updates, have used the above mentioned and similar types of reliable sources for information. So don’t accept something just because TIAI says it; but on the other hand, don’t fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources and documentation. Rejecting reliable information isn’t much if any better (maybe worse) than accepting unreliable information. Some people believe everything (gullible), others believe nothing (stubborn); if we want the truth, we must find a balance between those extremes.
Oh for god sake don't you think I know that as well as you do?
How about the reports of the warm room? What's that, gospel? How about the paramedics' statements? They are the straight dope? How about when LaToya says "Michael was murdered". Is that accurate?
With all due respect Im_convinced, save your lecture for someone who deserves it. Don't patronize me.
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?
The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax. This would put everything in danger. Using a dead body also gives more reality to the incident. I do believe that someone who died close to 12.21 was used because we know the EMTs couldn't recognize him and said that he was a bald head, old man. If they were going to find someone who died long ago, not on that day, I believe that they would have chosen someone who looked more like Michael, at least someone with hair. They picked someone who died in the morning of 25th no matter what he looked like. This is just my opinion of course and this makes sense to me.
Still what confuses me is, the pictures of Michael or someone who looks like Michael getting into the hospital sitting on the stretcher. If a dead body was used and if the EMTs were not in on the hoax, then who was that we saw the pictures of getting into hospital sitting on the stretcher? Or were those pictures taken another day? If we didn't have a heated room and EMTs' words about an old man, I would definitely go with the "no dead body was used" theory. But those make me think that a dead body was used.
Btw, Im_, you also conveniently chose to quote the one post (I have been repeating myself on this thread admittedly) where I continued point 2 to include that if the reports are false that indicates that the Dr. is lying and if he/she is lying then he/she is in on it anyway so WHO IS THE DEAD BODY DESIGNED TO FOOL.
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?
The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax.
(The coroner is in on it)
For the rest, why?
The patient did not make it. High profile. They saw nothing. They know nothing more. Done.
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?
The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax.
(The coroner is in on it)
For the rest, why?
The patient did not make it. High profile. They saw nothing. They know nothing more. Done.
IMO the ones who did the autopsy probably do not know about the hoax and a dead body would be useful again. The doctors at UCLA saw someone arrived dead with a different name. I see that a dead body would minimize the number of people who could be in on the hoax.
At least we know a dead body wasn't used to convince the public. Not that a "frail old man" would do the trick but a lot of people would tell themselves it's him.
Elvis provided a wax dummy for his "funeral", which like MJ's ambulance dummy, looks years younger.
I think Michael upped Elvis in that regards by just having the ambulance photo dummy that looks alive and not dead (bulging forehead vein). A dummy that could only be viewed in the infamous "ambulance photo" as compared to Elvis' air-conditioned dummy in the casket who was actually seen by funeral-goers. Michael creates more mystery this way. Nobody has seen a body that supposedly is Michael's. The dummy itself hints at him being alive.
No body means the paramedics HAVE to be in on it. They would never be fooled by a corpse or a dummy and the whole thing could have been blown right there if they called for back up in dealing with pushy Murray insisting they take a rotting corpse to UCLA. Can't risk it, too much planning has gone into this hoax to ruin it this way.
If the paramedics are in on it, the 911 call must be fake. This would mean that the call screen was manipulated somehow. This has never been discussed before but that information came from somewhere to be photographed at some point. It's an interesting side point I won't go into now, but perhaps good for a different discussion. I don't think it's ever been addressed. But we know the operator disconnected prior to emergency vehicle arrival and that is not normal. The operator also led the caller at one point in naming the person's symptoms ("ok he's not breathing, and he's not conscious either". [statement] the caller never said the person was not conscious at this point. Perhaps the gentleman who needs help was choking? Operator was quite cavalier in stating this symptom instead of questioning. Weird at minimum.)
If there is no body does the fire chief setting up cones outside have to know? No I suppose not. The "body" was loaded inside the gates and fire chief was outside. I have never heard it said that he went in, and he was videotaped outside with gates closed so I have to assume he did not go in and remained with the firetruck on the street.
If there was no body the bodyguards must also know. But that's sort of a given. BodyGuards. *snicker*
No body means a dummy, nothing, or MJ himself went to UCLA.
Once in the ambulance, if anyone took a peak through the windows, a dummy would suffice, or even MJ himself. Really MJ himself is perfect, since the EMTs are in on it, because no one glancing would be any the wiser. MJ rushed to hospital, if anyone sees anything they would see... MJ being rushed to hospital. But then we can't entubulate live MJ, that's very uncomfortable and possibly dangerous with a conscious person. So perhaps the dummy IS the best solution. They can cut the tracheal tube off the mouthpiece from the inside and strap it to dummy's face. That's prob how they set up the pic anyway, this accounts for why the mouthpiece isn't sitting quite right.
So if MJ (or a dummy) is on the cot going into UCLA, and not a real body, who needs to be in on it?
One person at UCLA, high up in a position of authority, would need to be in on it so as to direct all other staff away from the scene, provide privacy and cover, so that no one not in the know (everyone) sees a thing. An esteemed Doctor, I believe, would satisfy the position, but I am not in the medical field so someone might know better then me on this. Perhaps there is a floor supervisor who would be considered highest rank, I don't know. But then, if UCLA hears that MJ is coming, of course he would be given a private wing, and this would come from highest authority, so really all we need is one person to escort them to the location, and something on that stretcher in case anyone happens to see it being wheeled by.
Once the MJ entourage is behind closed doors within UCLA, anything can be done. MJ can quick change (if this aspect is correct), a dummy could be wrapped up in a sheet as "the body", or wrapped in a carpet and sent out with someone dressed as a janitor. The possibilities are endless here. No staff need be present in this private location within UCLA, "the patient is DOA and the family is attending", and no assistance is needed on an emergency basis, no team needs jump in. There is about an hour of time that needs to be accounted for here. It is *possible* that no one knows anything because no one ever actually saw anything and Dr. Cooper is the only one aware, but I don't have much to back this up. Here's my hole in the theory... simply due to lack of information. We know the family was there because their arrivals are documented. Maybe the family provided the cover for this hour of time. All would stay away because no one wants to interfere with young children at the bedside of their newly "dead" dad.
If we have no body, what was wrapped in a sheet and strapped to a cot and sent via helicopter? If a dummy was wrapped in sheet and sent out on a stretcher do any of those helicopter guys need to know? I don't think so, I can't imagine any of them are the type to sneak peaks at corpses they transport. So long as the weight and heft of it matched, they would be none the wiser to what they were carrying. If it was live MJ, it's a little tougher, because live bodies move much different then dead ones and I would imagine even someone handling it via stretcher might be able to tell? A dummy, on the other hand, would have similar properties to a dead body when hefted. If this is the case and a dummy was sent in the helicopter, then van video was at least set up and filmed at another time, and possibly another location.
Only problem with the dummy/dead body angle at this juncture, the way the body "moved" in the helicopter... dead bodies don't bend like that and I can't imagine dummy's do either. That looks very much so like a live body bend, regardless of who or what provided the forces to move it.
Nearing the end of the scenario of 6/25, no body does also mean that the coroner has to be in on it. If we concede or accept that the DC is fake, we must logically concede and accept that the coroner is in on it. I have researched the DC to death and I accept and concede that it is fake.
I am operating on the knowledge that the coroner's office stated in late June 2009 that MJ's body was not being kept there (remember the musical body storage locations reports of summer 2009, remember it was rumored that MJ's body was going to Neverland for a memorial there on the 28th. Then it was in Barry Gordy's crypt, then it was at Forest Lawn, then Forest Lawn said it wasn't there... My point is not that maybe the body was here there or everywhere, my point is that the coroner's office started this speculation by stating MJ's body was NOT there. I'll never in a million years find the statement in print all this time, so I can't prove it, but perhaps there's some long time hoaxers that also remember this).
The above being said, no one at the coroner's office needs to know anything at all, since the report released was that MJ's body was not there, so they didn't need a real body to fool anyone at that location either.
Feel free, anyone, to poke holes in it and we can go from there. At no point in The Scenario, do I see a requirement for a real body, which begs the question, if a real body is not necessary, what would the benefit be to using one at all?
Ps. Have we ever discussed why MJ HAD to go to UCLA that day and it was NOT ok that he go directly to the coroner (since coroner is in on it anyway)??
Is there a remote possibility that the body was of someone who was being kept alive on life support until the appropriate day and time and the machine was simply turned off with consent? Then the time delay in calling 911 could have been to remove the life support machines? Would the paramedics have realized this? I think it's likely a terminal patient was living at Carolwood and had agreed to do this. They may even have legally changed their name to Michael Joseph Jackson and obtained a driver's license with the name change on it before falling too ill to do so. All this could have been done in exchange for payment of all medical and funeral expenses of the patient. That's one scenario.
But if they used the assisted suicide scenario... does anybody know if they would have had to land the plane in the state that permits assisted suicide or could it have been done on the plane while still in the air? Also, anybody know what the effects would be of the high altitude and compressed air in an airplane on a corpse? That's something everyone should know right? lol
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?
The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax.
(The coroner is in on it)
For the rest, why?
The patient did not make it. High profile. They saw nothing. They know nothing more. Done.
IMO the ones who did the autopsy probably do not know about the hoax and a dead body would be useful again. The doctors at UCLA saw someone arrived dead with a different name. I see that a dead body would minimize the number of people who could be in on the hoax.
What leads you to believe that the autopsy is real? I don't believe it is real. I believe it was fabricated. The information on the multiple pages does not all match each other, a simple example, the listed height of the subject.
No doctors other then Dr. Cooper have come forward to say they saw someone dead bearing the name Michael Jackson. No staff at UCLA either. No one at the coroner's office has come forward either. Not one person.
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?
The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax.
(The coroner is in on it)
For the rest, why?
The patient did not make it. High profile. They saw nothing. They know nothing more. Done.
IMO the ones who did the autopsy probably do not know about the hoax and a dead body would be useful again. The doctors at UCLA saw someone arrived dead with a different name. I see that a dead body would minimize the number of people who could be in on the hoax.
What leads you to believe that the autopsy is real? I don't believe it is real. I believe it was fabricated. The information on the multiple pages does not all match each other, a simple example, the listed height of the subject.
No doctors other then Dr. Cooper have come forward to say they saw someone dead bearing the name Michael Jackson. No staff at UCLA either. No one at the coroner's office has come forward either. Not one person.
Bec, I didn't write anything regarding the autopsy report. It can be real which was prepared with an autopsy on a real dead person or it can be a fake. An autopsy might have done by doctors on a real dead body and a report might have prepared about it and then maybe the coroner changed some parts of it OR created an autopsy report by himself as he is in on the hoax. What I'm saying is once again, a dead body would be very useful to minimize the number of people who are in on the hoax.
I'll be reading your debunking the no body theory and comment it laters as soon as I wake up. Need to get some sleep now. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> xox
What leads you to believe that the autopsy is real? I don't believe it is real. I believe it was fabricated. The information on the multiple pages does not all match each other, a simple example, the listed height of the subject.
No doctors other then Dr. Cooper have come forward to say they saw someone dead bearing the name Michael Jackson. No staff at UCLA either. No one at the coroner's office has come forward either. Not one person.
I also don't believe that the autopsy was real, these are just a peaces of paper, no real body required to right it down, does it? Just like in the FBI article, 4 women got ALL needed documents related to death without body at all. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> I think that we are making it a little too complicated here sometimes, just like some people already pointed out that we should be looking for easiest answers. Why do we think that somebody from Hospital should be coming forward and telling us what happened on 6/25? They have no right to discuss these kind of things in public (plus if they saw nothing/nobody they have nothing to discuss). I think that if they DID tell us stories of what was going on in the UCLA that day, we would judge them even harder, because Michael always wanted his privacy!
On the other side here is another objection. I read in the preliminary hearing transcripts that not only Dr. Cooper was testified but also Dr. Nuygen (hope the spelling is correct) She said that she was called to the room (where "MJ" was) at 1:35, she also stated that there were 5-6 people in the room, and she mentioned another doctor Dr. Cruz who operated balloon pump. So here we have at least 3 names + CM in that room.
Feel free, anyone, to poke holes in it and we can go from there. At no point in The Scenario, do I see a requirement for a real body, which begs the question, if a real body is not necessary, what would the benefit be to using one at all?
Absolutely agreed bec. Till now i have not seen anything that would tell me that body HAD to be there. Everyone is lying anyway, why add a dead body to it? Also about the patient who could have done a suicide, because he had very little time to live anyhow. I don't think that Michael would ask someone to do it <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> remember "We've already had enough" lyrics "Only God could decide who would live and who would die". And yes Michael had to be the one who asked someone to do it, i really doubt that some guy from a different state decided to die, but before that call MJ and ask him if he needed his body? The way i said it sounds very bad, but that's how the "real dead body" theories sound to me. Plus my objections to the real dead body use. High temperature is bad for corpse: #1 speeds up the process of rigor mortis (very noticeable for EMT's, don't you think?) #2 the corpse smell will occur much sooner (thank you people who mentioned it before) The smell is really horrible (unfortunately witnessed it a couple of times <!-- s --><!-- s -->), there is nothing similar to it, not AC, nor open windows will help to vanish it. Of course some may say that the smell does not occur right after death, sure. But the dead body should have been at least from the morning of 6/25 so it gives us a 2-6 hours to get to the house in the warm room, trust me the smell will be pretty noticeable by that time, especially EMT's would feel it for sure.
TS's question was, the trip from house to the UCLA! Not what happened in UCLA and other places that day. So maybe it will be much easier for us to concentrate on that trip only? <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->.
I say they had a dummy in Ambulance, in case someone would look through the windows... no body i think is too risky for that particular situation. This is just a thought i still did not collect all needed facts for this theory or any other theory <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Believers you are doing such a great job! I love reading your posts, so much information, imagination, logic etc. etc. etc in it. LOVE it.
P.S Bec i love your argument mood in these days <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
Btw, Im_, you also conveniently chose to quote the one post (I have been repeating myself on this thread admittedly) where I continued point 2 to include that if the reports are false that indicates that the Dr. is lying and if he/she is lying then he/she is in on it anyway so WHO IS THE DEAD BODY DESIGNED TO FOOL.
I guess you missed this comment <!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=150#p322747<!-- l --> when I talked about Realism. That is to say also that a real body/cadaver wasn't necessarily to fool anyone but to make the events more realistic. One other thing bec if you need to be hostile towards me with your comments, I am not amused and this will be my last comment to you.
I did not quote your post about the article because I was patronizing you. I did it to show you that the article you were using in your theory or arguement had flaws in it. The source of the info came from a tabloid gossip column although it did provide one big clue: Michael was alive.
The difference in how I present my arguments and the way you do is: I always provide more than one document to back up what I say and I don't comment based on my opinion only, unlike you.
bec wrote:
Oh for god sake don't you think I know that as well as you do?
How about the reports of the warm room? What's that, gospel? How about the paramedics' statements? They are the straight dope? How about when LaToya says "Michael was murdered". Is that accurate?
With all due respect Im_convinced, save your lecture for someone who deserves it. Don't patronize me.
So to answer your questions which I was about to post this anyways. See below.
Souza wrote:
ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present)
@ Souza: I wrote about the paramedics in my first post.
Official General Prelim Discussion thread
<!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17015<!-- l -->
Then you have the witness list (see thread link above) of who testified at the pre-lim in regards to Dr. Cooper and the paramedics that showed up that day and transported the body to the hospital. Now after the jury questionnaire has been released, (see link below) it shows the full potential witness list. All 3 of the paramedics are confirmed. These are the ones who showed up that day. Richard Senneff FF/PM, Martin Blount FF/PM and Jeffrey Mills Fire Captain. <!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=172&t=18674<!-- l -->
I forgot to add the link I talked about in my last post. See below.
There is a timeline link below that shows how far back some issues started and caused faulty infusion pumps to be recalled.
Here are some reports (below) that came out after the pre-lim started. Below I have quoted some things from the articles that explain how many ER docs were there, who told the paramedics to call time of death (Dr. Cooper), the reason the paramedics kept working on MJ, how long approximately they continued to work on MJ after he arrived at UCLA and the reason they continued to work on MJ after he arrived as said by Dr. Thao Nguyen. He said Murray appeared "devastated" and "asked me not to give up easily and try my best to save the patient."
I am going to say that the reason paramedics didn’t recognize MJ is because the body/cadaver wasn’t MJ and their description they gave is accurate based on what they saw.
Hypothetically lets assume the paramedics were fans of MJ’s and they were aware of MJ’s features it would seem probable they would be suspicious when they arrived. The Dr.’s at UCLA hypothetically are fans and know what MJ looks like would also be suspicious of the body/cadaver they were working on. I am going to say that just because a majority of us and other fans around the world know what MJ looks like and we know the FAKE Ambulance pic is definitely recognizable as a younger version of MJ DOES NOT mean that the Dr.‘s at UCLA and the paramedics know. This is why I believe they are real and NOT in on the hoax. They did their jobs like they would any other day except once they were told who the patient was it did influence them a little but not enough to recognize the body/cadaver wasn’t MJ. They also had been influenced by Dr. Murray pleading with them.
I have read many comments regarding that aspect of MJ being the most recognizable face and I think that is a personal assumption to think everyone knows. I have also read many comments saying that medical personnel wouldn’t be fooled by a dummy so that alone should exclude the possibility of a dummy being used. It would leave the possibility of using a real corpse more likely. I have read many comments saying the dummy would be the best because that would mean less people in on the hoax but it actually means more people in on the hoax because like many have said the paramedics would be in and the Dr.’s at UCLA would be in and so on. That theory doesn’t flow with the less the better.
I have also read that many think medical personnel would not be fooled by a dead corpse because of decomp issues but I say many amazing things can be done to prep the body to appear newly deceased. <!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver<!-- m --> Decomp does not happen as quickly as people assume it does. There would be no <!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition<!-- m -->
Once the body/cadaver was taken to the ER many drugs were administered and also at the scene. By the time the coroner’s got the body/cadaver whatever reasoning could be said about decomp or temp or anything else goes out the door because the body/cadaver has now been tampered with and the results will be different than if the coroner’s got the body with out intervention drugs, etc. One more point about the amazing things that can be done, Craig Harvey is a technical advisor on movies and T.V. shows that need authentic looking scenes. <!-- m -->http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2004576/<!-- m -->
LOS ANGELES (AP) - Before paramedics wheeled Michael Jackson into the emergency room, Dr. Richelle Cooper was sure he was dead.
More than an hour of resuscitation efforts at the Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center didn't change her opinion -- the King of Pop had died in the bedroom of his rented mansion.
Based on what Jackson's personal physician told her, though, she didn't quite know why.
Murray told her he had seen Jackson stop breathing and immediately started CPR, but prosecutors say that's not what happened. Instead, over three days and a dozen witnesses at a preliminary hearing, they have put forth a timeline in which Jackson died in the bedroom of his rented mansion and Murray delayed calling 911 to conceal his actions.
Cooper testified she authorized paramedics to pronounce Jackson dead at 12:57 p.m., but they declined at Murray's request and because of the singer's celebrity. After an ambulance ride trailed by paparazzi and more than an hour of efforts in the ER, Cooper officially pronounced Jackson dead at 2:26 p.m. on June 25, 2009.
She said that Murray never told her he had given Jackson the anesthetic propofol, which Cooper said she typically uses in the ER for patients with head trauma or serious injuries.
The Houston-based cardiologist charged in Jackson's death also didn't mention several other sedatives he administered, which Cooper said could have amplified the propofol's effects and caused Jackson to stop breathing before his heart stopped beating.
With Cooper and another UCLA doctor, prosecutors have elicited testimony from five witnesses who said Murray either never mentioned the all the drugs he had given Jackson, or tried to conceal them.
Paramedic Martin Blount, who also testified Thursday, said he saw Murray scoop up three vials of the painkiller lidocaine from the floor of Jackson's bedroom during resuscitation efforts. Blount said he was surprised to see the medications because Murray had told him that he hadn't given the singer any drugs.
Murray's attorney, Joseph Low IV, did not even question Blount's description of the lidocaine, although another defense attorney pointedly questioned the UCLA doctors about whether candid disclosures from the doctor would have saved Jackson.
Cooper said while it wouldn't have changed her efforts to revive Jackson, knowing that Murray had given the singer several sedatives and propofol would have added to her understanding of why the singer had died.
"I would be concerned particularly if there were other medications given, that it would lead to a respiratory arrest, which would lead to a cardiac arrest," Cooper said.
Nicole Alvarez, a girlfriend Murray called while riding in the ambulance to UCLA, has been ordered to appear in court on Friday. The hearing will also feature detectives, coroner's officials and experts on propofol's effects in the coming days.
Judge Michael Pastor, who will decide whether the case proceeds to trial, also heard from two physicians at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center who treated Jackson in the emergency room.
Dr. Richelle Cooper, who supervised his treatment, testified that Murray said he had "witnessed the patient arrest," which she took to mean that he had been in the room when Jackson stopped breathing. She said that when she asked him what had happened, he mentioned the singer's grueling rehearsal schedule.
"Dr. Murray reported the patient had been in his usual state of health, not ill, but had been working very hard, and he thought he may be dehydrated," she said.
Dr. Thao Nguyen said Murray appeared "devastated" and "asked me not to give up easily and try my best to save the patient." Both doctors said that when they asked about what medication he had administered to the singer, Murray mentioned the sedative lorazepam but not propofol.
What I have wrote regarding MJ and the body/cadaver, the paramedics, etc. is my opinion and theory based on research. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
I don't know how to fit this video in here, but it kind of fits i guess <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
The video is about how relatives of donated body's have no idea how the bodies are being used. I think this one is pretty disturbing, "Cadavers used in crash tests" <!-- m -->http://videosift.com/video/Crash-Test-C ... n-Cadavers<!-- m -->, it was aired by MBC news (action news), so everybody can watch it i guess.
I'm just throwing it out here, maybe it will be useful for somebody IDK. <!-- s:| -->:|<!-- s:| -->
The only reason I will abondon my theory that MJ rode to the hospital is because TS clearly states he did not, and TS does not seem in that post to be in the mode of supporting a false theory to foster discussion. So I'm next going with a dummy, until I see enough reason to go to the next option. My last option with no other choice would be a real dead body, something TS seems to lean towards. Thanks to Im_convincedMJalive for putting out TS' way back post which I should have re-read. <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->
viewtopic.php?f=125&t=7194 TS writes:
I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.
For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory.
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour.
This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.
Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-t<!-- m --> ... a-mystery/? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedic<!-- m --> ... -arrived/; <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-j<!-- m --> ... c-arrest/; <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-j<!-- m --> ... -911-call/
But my biggest argument against it being a dummy, corpse or no body, is that we clearly see "MJ" sitting up on the stretcher going into UCLA. To me that's a HUGE factor.
Someone suggested however that how do we know for sure that that video of "MJ" arriving at UCLA was actually taken on the 25th?
These two sets of video and pics could have been taken separate days.
Also when Kristina4LOVE posted about the video on realistic dolls, it showed them being able to move them possibly with some remote control technology. Could this person sitting up on the stretcher and in the helicopter be the doll moving by remote control?
<!-- m -->http://www.fruzeo.com/video/486520/Real ... dy-Effects<!-- m -->
Now after reading Im_convinced articles showing several doctors and paramedics clearly seeming to react like the body had died perhaps an hour or so before coming to the hospital. They sound very convincing, and TS says as few in as possible, and so I admit this is a dilemna. But then the body sits up. Michael, Michael, why do you do this to us! <!-- s --><!-- s -->
by dom425 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:05 pm
MJhasSpoken wrote:I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?
<!-- s --><!-- s --> In our wildest dreams! The only thing it will prove is no entrapment, but that's after the BAM.
But this whole hoax is so unpredictable, and MJ can do things anyway he wants to. We're just along for the ride!
I'm starting to wonder if we will ever agree on this part. I'm not even sure we can agree on a debate point. Does not bode well for things to come, does it?
I have also read that many think medical personnel would not be fooled by a dead corpse because of decomp issues but I say many amazing things can be done to prep the body to appear newly deceased. <!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver<!-- m --> Decomp does not happen as quickly as people assume it does. There would be no <!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition<!-- m -->
This explains the reason for the excessively high temperature in the room. It was done to delay the occurrence of algor mortis.
According to wikipedia:
Algor mortis (Latin: algor—cold(ness); mortis—of death) is the reduction in body temperature following death. This is generally a steady decline until matching ambient temperature (room temperature), although external factors can have a significant influence.
As long as the temperature in the room stays at or above 98.6 degrees the temperature of the corpse would remove up as well.
Thank you "I'm Convinced!"
Stay blessed! OnTheWingsOfLove
Just finished to read it's difficult to catch up on so late <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: --> I have a question how do we know for sure who has approached, touched, seen the body (if any)? We just have what is in the press and it's not necessarily true.
Just a tought (I'm a so bad investigator that I'm not gonna try to foment a theory)... just want to say that when I think FBI I think secrecy and diversion so I believe that even the people who are in on it do not necessarily know the real truth (= Michael Jackson faked his death) but still cooperate. They can have been told a different story and they would just do what is necessary without asking questions. I can't convince myself that paramedics can be fooled to believe that a person just died with a corpse no matter how hard you heat to room, and even less a doctor. I am more inclined to believe in the no real body theory.
Comments
Also a red car, similar to "that day" is parked outside carolwood dve, when doing a google search.
Different angles can change the theories.
I think that's an excellent defense to use......... But then again what if that's not in Michael's plan.
I think the media would go crazy if Murray used Michael faking his death as a defense. Maybe the media will stop and take a good look at all of the clues that were in front of their faces this whole time.
Hey! Michael could be planning to wake the media and in turn wake the whole world by using the hoax as Murray's defense.
Now I feel like I've gone to deep into this. <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->
Michael likes to be different and go beyond what everybody else has done. Elvis' doctor went to trial and was found not guilty...if MJ wanted to make his trial even better than that he could make that Murray's defense just that...who knows?
About the media, some might look at the clues like you said and realize MJ is alive...but the fans might not, they already think Murray is already rubbing salt in the wound by 'following' Janet, walking down the street like nothing happened etc.
Or maybe Murray's defense will be that MJ killed himself, if this is supposed to be a contrast to MJ's trial in 2005.
As far as point 1)- yes, but there is a difference between having been dead for one hour or so, or the hours it would require to get a corpse into the Carolwood. Also, if we suppose there was a real dead body, do you also suppose there was a real autopsy? So, the things that would have to fall into place: Find someone who is dead on June 25, but not for too long as being frozen would have been a give-away. Also, again, if there had been decomposition smell, the EMTs would have REALLY smelled a rat (no pun intended)- no one has mentioned decomposition smell in the depositions. In the hot room with a body dead for hours- there would have been that element.
Then we have the logistics of having this person die at a certain time, on that day, and he would have been similar enough to pass for MJ in autopsy findings as to not make it too obvious. Also, coroner (if not in on events and there was a real autopsy) would have known real cause of death as room temperature is included in the equation. Add to that the paperwork that would have to be in place to make all this legal- as well as logistics such as transporting the body etc.
It just requires too much work and too many people to be involved. Why not have the FBI brief the paramedics instead on their “role”- and have a dummy in the ambulance (to make it look like something was on the stretcher)? It’s so much simpler. In science we always go with the simplest explanation and ONLY if that doesn’t work go on.
Point 2- You can have short term muscle activity, but NO medical personnel mistakes that for actual heart beat as the effect is known. Also, this only goes for a very short period, a beat or two- it would not count as any sustainable heartbeat. Furthermore- paramedics brief medical staff. If they brief them that they suspect the patient has been dead for hours, it is highly doubtful that medical staff would have continued CPR for hours (unless there was a heartbeat; which would have been impossible if we have an actual dead body). To do that, would risk severe brain damage at this point in time. This part has always been a weak point, btw- if we say dead body or no dead body and it was just part of the story. The amount of time that passed makes HOURS of working on the patient without a heartbeat highly unlikely and even medically unethical.
So, it much more likely, that the “heart beat” story was just part of the overall “story of those involved.
I still stand by “no dead body” and paramedics (2- 3rd is either FBI or MJ in my opinion) in on it.
Oh for god sake don't you think I know that as well as you do?
How about the reports of the warm room? What's that, gospel? How about the paramedics' statements? They are the straight dope? How about when LaToya says "Michael was murdered". Is that accurate?
With all due respect Im_convinced, save your lecture for someone who deserves it. Don't patronize me.
The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax. This would put everything in danger. Using a dead body also gives more reality to the incident. I do believe that someone who died close to 12.21 was used because we know the EMTs couldn't recognize him and said that he was a bald head, old man. If they were going to find someone who died long ago, not on that day, I believe that they would have chosen someone who looked more like Michael, at least someone with hair. They picked someone who died in the morning of 25th no matter what he looked like. This is just my opinion of course and this makes sense to me.
Still what confuses me is, the pictures of Michael or someone who looks like Michael getting into the hospital sitting on the stretcher. If a dead body was used and if the EMTs were not in on the hoax, then who was that we saw the pictures of getting into hospital sitting on the stretcher? Or were those pictures taken another day? If we didn't have a heated room and EMTs' words about an old man, I would definitely go with the "no dead body was used" theory. But those make me think that a dead body was used.
(The coroner is in on it)
For the rest, why?
The patient did not make it. High profile. They saw nothing. They know nothing more. Done.
IMO the ones who did the autopsy probably do not know about the hoax and a dead body would be useful again. The doctors at UCLA saw someone arrived dead with a different name. I see that a dead body would minimize the number of people who could be in on the hoax.
Elvis provided a wax dummy for his "funeral", which like MJ's ambulance dummy, looks years younger.
I think Michael upped Elvis in that regards by just having the ambulance photo dummy that looks alive and not dead (bulging forehead vein). A dummy that could only be viewed in the infamous "ambulance photo" as compared to Elvis' air-conditioned dummy in the casket who was actually seen by funeral-goers. Michael creates more mystery this way. Nobody has seen a body that supposedly is Michael's. The dummy itself hints at him being alive.
No body means the paramedics HAVE to be in on it. They would never be fooled by a corpse or a dummy and the whole thing could have been blown right there if they called for back up in dealing with pushy Murray insisting they take a rotting corpse to UCLA. Can't risk it, too much planning has gone into this hoax to ruin it this way.
If the paramedics are in on it, the 911 call must be fake. This would mean that the call screen was manipulated somehow. This has never been discussed before but that information came from somewhere to be photographed at some point. It's an interesting side point I won't go into now, but perhaps good for a different discussion. I don't think it's ever been addressed. But we know the operator disconnected prior to emergency vehicle arrival and that is not normal. The operator also led the caller at one point in naming the person's symptoms ("ok he's not breathing, and he's not conscious either". [statement] the caller never said the person was not conscious at this point. Perhaps the gentleman who needs help was choking? Operator was quite cavalier in stating this symptom instead of questioning. Weird at minimum.)
If there is no body does the fire chief setting up cones outside have to know? No I suppose not. The "body" was loaded inside the gates and fire chief was outside. I have never heard it said that he went in, and he was videotaped outside with gates closed so I have to assume he did not go in and remained with the firetruck on the street.
If there was no body the bodyguards must also know. But that's sort of a given. Body Guards. *snicker*
No body means a dummy, nothing, or MJ himself went to UCLA.
Once in the ambulance, if anyone took a peak through the windows, a dummy would suffice, or even MJ himself. Really MJ himself is perfect, since the EMTs are in on it, because no one glancing would be any the wiser. MJ rushed to hospital, if anyone sees anything they would see... MJ being rushed to hospital. But then we can't entubulate live MJ, that's very uncomfortable and possibly dangerous with a conscious person. So perhaps the dummy IS the best solution. They can cut the tracheal tube off the mouthpiece from the inside and strap it to dummy's face. That's prob how they set up the pic anyway, this accounts for why the mouthpiece isn't sitting quite right.
So if MJ (or a dummy) is on the cot going into UCLA, and not a real body, who needs to be in on it?
One person at UCLA, high up in a position of authority, would need to be in on it so as to direct all other staff away from the scene, provide privacy and cover, so that no one not in the know (everyone) sees a thing. An esteemed Doctor, I believe, would satisfy the position, but I am not in the medical field so someone might know better then me on this. Perhaps there is a floor supervisor who would be considered highest rank, I don't know. But then, if UCLA hears that MJ is coming, of course he would be given a private wing, and this would come from highest authority, so really all we need is one person to escort them to the location, and something on that stretcher in case anyone happens to see it being wheeled by.
Once the MJ entourage is behind closed doors within UCLA, anything can be done. MJ can quick change (if this aspect is correct), a dummy could be wrapped up in a sheet as "the body", or wrapped in a carpet and sent out with someone dressed as a janitor. The possibilities are endless here. No staff need be present in this private location within UCLA, "the patient is DOA and the family is attending", and no assistance is needed on an emergency basis, no team needs jump in. There is about an hour of time that needs to be accounted for here. It is *possible* that no one knows anything because no one ever actually saw anything and Dr. Cooper is the only one aware, but I don't have much to back this up. Here's my hole in the theory... simply due to lack of information. We know the family was there because their arrivals are documented. Maybe the family provided the cover for this hour of time. All would stay away because no one wants to interfere with young children at the bedside of their newly "dead" dad.
If we have no body, what was wrapped in a sheet and strapped to a cot and sent via helicopter? If a dummy was wrapped in sheet and sent out on a stretcher do any of those helicopter guys need to know? I don't think so, I can't imagine any of them are the type to sneak peaks at corpses they transport. So long as the weight and heft of it matched, they would be none the wiser to what they were carrying. If it was live MJ, it's a little tougher, because live bodies move much different then dead ones and I would imagine even someone handling it via stretcher might be able to tell? A dummy, on the other hand, would have similar properties to a dead body when hefted. If this is the case and a dummy was sent in the helicopter, then van video was at least set up and filmed at another time, and possibly another location.
Only problem with the dummy/dead body angle at this juncture, the way the body "moved" in the helicopter... dead bodies don't bend like that and I can't imagine dummy's do either. That looks very much so like a live body bend, regardless of who or what provided the forces to move it.
Nearing the end of the scenario of 6/25, no body does also mean that the coroner has to be in on it. If we concede or accept that the DC is fake, we must logically concede and accept that the coroner is in on it. I have researched the DC to death and I accept and concede that it is fake.
I am operating on the knowledge that the coroner's office stated in late June 2009 that MJ's body was not being kept there (remember the musical body storage locations reports of summer 2009, remember it was rumored that MJ's body was going to Neverland for a memorial there on the 28th. Then it was in Barry Gordy's crypt, then it was at Forest Lawn, then Forest Lawn said it wasn't there... My point is not that maybe the body was here there or everywhere, my point is that the coroner's office started this speculation by stating MJ's body was NOT there. I'll never in a million years find the statement in print all this time, so I can't prove it, but perhaps there's some long time hoaxers that also remember this).
The above being said, no one at the coroner's office needs to know anything at all, since the report released was that MJ's body was not there, so they didn't need a real body to fool anyone at that location either.
Feel free, anyone, to poke holes in it and we can go from there. At no point in The Scenario, do I see a requirement for a real body, which begs the question, if a real body is not necessary, what would the benefit be to using one at all?
Ps. Have we ever discussed why MJ HAD to go to UCLA that day and it was NOT ok that he go directly to the coroner (since coroner is in on it anyway)??
But if they used the assisted suicide scenario... does anybody know if they would have had to land the plane in the state that permits assisted suicide or could it have been done on the plane while still in the air? Also, anybody know what the effects would be of the high altitude and compressed air in an airplane on a corpse? That's something everyone should know right? lol
What leads you to believe that the autopsy is real? I don't believe it is real. I believe it was fabricated. The information on the multiple pages does not all match each other, a simple example, the listed height of the subject.
No doctors other then Dr. Cooper have come forward to say they saw someone dead bearing the name Michael Jackson. No staff at UCLA either. No one at the coroner's office has come forward either. Not one person.
Bec, I didn't write anything regarding the autopsy report. It can be real which was prepared with an autopsy on a real dead person or it can be a fake. An autopsy might have done by doctors on a real dead body and a report might have prepared about it and then maybe the coroner changed some parts of it OR created an autopsy report by himself as he is in on the hoax. What I'm saying is once again, a dead body would be very useful to minimize the number of people who are in on the hoax.
I'll be reading your debunking the no body theory and comment it laters as soon as I wake up. Need to get some sleep now. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> xox
I also don't believe that the autopsy was real, these are just a peaces of paper, no real body required to right it down, does it? Just like in the FBI article, 4 women got ALL needed documents related to death without body at all. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) --> I think that we are making it a little too complicated here sometimes, just like some people already pointed out that we should be looking for easiest answers. Why do we think that somebody from Hospital should be coming forward and telling us what happened on 6/25? They have no right to discuss these kind of things in public (plus if they saw nothing/nobody they have nothing to discuss). I think that if they DID tell us stories of what was going on in the UCLA that day, we would judge them even harder, because Michael always wanted his privacy!
On the other side here is another objection. I read in the preliminary hearing transcripts that not only Dr. Cooper was testified but also Dr. Nuygen (hope the spelling is correct) She said that she was called to the room (where "MJ" was) at 1:35, she also stated that there were 5-6 people in the room, and she mentioned another doctor Dr. Cruz who operated balloon pump. So here we have at least 3 names + CM in that room.
Absolutely agreed bec. Till now i have not seen anything that would tell me that body HAD to be there. Everyone is lying anyway, why add a dead body to it? Also about the patient who could have done a suicide, because he had very little time to live anyhow. I don't think that Michael would ask someone to do it <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? --> remember "We've already had enough" lyrics "Only God could decide who would live and who would die". And yes Michael had to be the one who asked someone to do it, i really doubt that some guy from a different state decided to die, but before that call MJ and ask him if he needed his body? The way i said it sounds very bad, but that's how the "real dead body" theories sound to me. Plus my objections to the real dead body use. High temperature is bad for corpse: #1 speeds up the process of rigor mortis (very noticeable for EMT's, don't you think?) #2 the corpse smell will occur much sooner (thank you people who mentioned it before) The smell is really horrible (unfortunately witnessed it a couple of times <!-- s
TS's question was, the trip from house to the UCLA! Not what happened in UCLA and other places that day. So maybe it will be much easier for us to concentrate on that trip only? <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->.
I say they had a dummy in Ambulance, in case someone would look through the windows... no body i think is too risky for that particular situation. This is just a thought i still did not collect all needed facts for this theory or any other theory <!-- s
Believers you are doing such a great job! I love reading your posts, so much information, imagination, logic etc. etc. etc in it. LOVE it.
P.S Bec i love your argument mood in these days <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
L.O.V.E you all!
I did not quote your post about the article because I was patronizing you. I did it to show you that the article you were using in your theory or arguement had flaws in it. The source of the info came from a tabloid gossip column although it did provide one big clue: Michael was alive.
The difference in how I present my arguments and the way you do is: I always provide more than one document to back up what I say and I don't comment based on my opinion only, unlike you. So to answer your questions which I was about to post this anyways. See below. @ Souza: I wrote about the paramedics in my first post. I forgot to add the link I talked about in my last post. See below. <!-- m -->http://www.dipity.com/timeline/Propofol-Recall/<!-- m -->
Here are some reports (below) that came out after the pre-lim started. Below I have quoted some things from the articles that explain how many ER docs were there, who told the paramedics to call time of death (Dr. Cooper), the reason the paramedics kept working on MJ, how long approximately they continued to work on MJ after he arrived at UCLA and the reason they continued to work on MJ after he arrived as said by Dr. Thao Nguyen. He said Murray appeared "devastated" and "asked me not to give up easily and try my best to save the patient."
I am going to say that the reason paramedics didn’t recognize MJ is because the body/cadaver wasn’t MJ and their description they gave is accurate based on what they saw.
Hypothetically lets assume the paramedics were fans of MJ’s and they were aware of MJ’s features it would seem probable they would be suspicious when they arrived. The Dr.’s at UCLA hypothetically are fans and know what MJ looks like would also be suspicious of the body/cadaver they were working on. I am going to say that just because a majority of us and other fans around the world know what MJ looks like and we know the FAKE Ambulance pic is definitely recognizable as a younger version of MJ DOES NOT mean that the Dr.‘s at UCLA and the paramedics know. This is why I believe they are real and NOT in on the hoax. They did their jobs like they would any other day except once they were told who the patient was it did influence them a little but not enough to recognize the body/cadaver wasn’t MJ. They also had been influenced by Dr. Murray pleading with them.
I have read many comments regarding that aspect of MJ being the most recognizable face and I think that is a personal assumption to think everyone knows. I have also read many comments saying that medical personnel wouldn’t be fooled by a dummy so that alone should exclude the possibility of a dummy being used. It would leave the possibility of using a real corpse more likely. I have read many comments saying the dummy would be the best because that would mean less people in on the hoax but it actually means more people in on the hoax because like many have said the paramedics would be in and the Dr.’s at UCLA would be in and so on. That theory doesn’t flow with the less the better.
I have also read that many think medical personnel would not be fooled by a dead corpse because of decomp issues but I say many amazing things can be done to prep the body to appear newly deceased. <!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver<!-- m --> Decomp does not happen as quickly as people assume it does. There would be no <!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition<!-- m -->
Once the body/cadaver was taken to the ER many drugs were administered and also at the scene. By the time the coroner’s got the body/cadaver whatever reasoning could be said about decomp or temp or anything else goes out the door because the body/cadaver has now been tampered with and the results will be different than if the coroner’s got the body with out intervention drugs, etc. One more point about the amazing things that can be done, Craig Harvey is a technical advisor on movies and T.V. shows that need authentic looking scenes. <!-- m -->http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2004576/<!-- m -->
Dr. Richelle Cooper was sure he was dead before he arrived at UCLA.
<!-- m -->http://www.thegrio.com/entertainment/ja ... rrival.php<!-- m --> <!-- m -->http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?secti ... id=7883145<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/07 ... y-20110107<!-- m --> What I have wrote regarding MJ and the body/cadaver, the paramedics, etc. is my opinion and theory based on research. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
The video is about how relatives of donated body's have no idea how the bodies are being used. I think this one is pretty disturbing, "Cadavers used in crash tests" <!-- m -->http://videosift.com/video/Crash-Test-C ... n-Cadavers<!-- m -->, it was aired by MBC news (action news), so everybody can watch it i guess.
I'm just throwing it out here, maybe it will be useful for somebody IDK. <!-- s:| -->:|<!-- s:| -->
Someone suggested however that how do we know for sure that that video of "MJ" arriving at UCLA was actually taken on the 25th?
These two sets of video and pics could have been taken separate days.
Also when Kristina4LOVE posted about the video on realistic dolls, it showed them being able to move them possibly with some remote control technology. Could this person sitting up on the stretcher and in the helicopter be the doll moving by remote control?
<!-- m -->http://www.fruzeo.com/video/486520/Real ... dy-Effects<!-- m -->
Now after reading Im_convinced articles showing several doctors and paramedics clearly seeming to react like the body had died perhaps an hour or so before coming to the hospital. They sound very convincing, and TS says as few in as possible, and so I admit this is a dilemna. But then the body sits up. Michael, Michael, why do you do this to us! <!-- s
But this whole hoax is so unpredictable, and MJ can do things anyway he wants to. We're just along for the ride!
This explains the reason for the excessively high temperature in the room. It was done to delay the occurrence of algor mortis.
According to wikipedia:
Algor mortis (Latin: algor—cold(ness); mortis—of death) is the reduction in body temperature following death. This is generally a steady decline until matching ambient temperature (room temperature), although external factors can have a significant influence.
As long as the temperature in the room stays at or above 98.6 degrees the temperature of the corpse would remove up as well.
Thank you "I'm Convinced!"
Stay blessed!
OnTheWingsOfLove
Just a tought (I'm a so bad investigator that I'm not gonna try to foment a theory)... just want to say that when I think FBI I think secrecy and diversion so I believe that even the people who are in on it do not necessarily know the real truth (= Michael Jackson faked his death) but still cooperate. They can have been told a different story and they would just do what is necessary without asking questions. I can't convince myself that paramedics can be fooled to believe that a person just died with a corpse no matter how hard you heat to room, and even less a doctor. I am more inclined to believe in the no real body theory.