Is there any photo or video of the ambulance arriving at the house", the paparazzi took no photos or videos of the route from the ambulance to the hospital <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
So the paramedics said the patient looked like an old man and they didnt know it was MJ but in the ambo pic it looked like a younger person and it looked like MJ.
So maybe paramedics worked on a real patient but MJ was just photoshopped in.
The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them. I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.
A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.
If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.
Yes he could. In the neighbour state Oregon, plus in Washington and Montana, assisted suicide is legal. There are some rules of course, but you can choose your own date of death. After going through the 'approval procedure', a doctor can prescribe the lethal medications to the terminally ill patient and then the patient has to administer it himself. I am just thinking about some articles like "Michael Jackson 6 months to live" (in order to get approval for assisted suicide, you must have a life expectation of 6 months or less), "MJ killed himself" "MJ looked like sick old frail man", add to that the painkiller addictions, which many terminally ill patients have and it's starting to look like assisted suicide. I sent an email to determine if it's possible for someone from one of those states to self-administer the drugs in a state where it's not (yet) legal. If not, it is possible that they flew the body in on the morning of June 25th, right after the person was pronounced dead by a doctor in Oregon/Washington/Montana. We still have that close-down at LAX that morning. Was it really someone leaving, or (also) someone arriving? It would also explain why the body was already cold and stiff, even though the room temp was that high. The person would have been dead for hours, and that is what the EMT's thought.
It would also mean that the EMT's in the back of the ambulance, might not even be in the know. They would certainly think something is going on, but that doesn't mean they really KNOW. We think it's all fishy, and we don't know either. They might have been told that there is a shadow investigation going on by the FBI considering MJ's death and that the ambulance picture was faked for a certain reason. That is just a thought, but point is that if their supervisor tells them to shut up because the FBI is involved, they will. I do think the driver is in the know, because he backed out that slow. There is a difference between knowing something is wrong, and really KNOW about the hoax. I think only those absolutely necessary are truly knowing what's going on, because if this is a sting, there is also something like the safety of people and the operation. Who doesn't know, can't talk.
Same goes for people in the hospital. I believe one or two people at the hospital really KNOW, the ones in the room when they brought in the body might only suspect. We haven't heard from anyone at the hospital, which shows me that they too were asked not to talk about it. And the fire alarm at the hospital made sure that only a select few would be able to see the body (damage control).
An autopsy is not required with assisted suicide, so I don't think there even was an autopsy. The cause of death on the DC will be stated as natural, with mention of the decease. No autopsy is needed. The coroner's office knows, they have to. If he didn't slice up MJ, he knows it's a hoax, so in any case the coroner is aware of the hoax. An e-mail I received today from the coroner's office confirms that for me. It was a reply to a question I sent them in October 2009, which is extremely strange. It came from the chief of public services and I am pretty sure she receives many emails, questions and requests. An email from October 2009 would definitely be buried by now, so this tells me she saved it somewhere. Why answer now after 18 months? (still mailing, I will post it if something interesting comes up).
So a real body would definitely bring the number of people in on it down.
As for a living person (MJ or double) or no one at all being in the ambulance, that would increase the people in on it. You can't perform CPR on a person that is perfectly fine or non-exsisting, which means it was all a show and anyone in the room at Carolwood, the EMT's and everyone present in the hospital are in the know. Also, MJ or the double should leave the hospital at a certain moment, and with all the fans and paparazzi present there, that would be way too risky. I don't believe that they would take such a risk.
A real body might not be 'entertaining', but if this is a sting operation, it simply might have been necessary.
On a sidenote: I think Alberto Alvarez is an FBI agent and maybe the other bodyguards as well.
So in a nutshell, here is what I think might have occured that day:
Early morning: Terminally ill patient ends his life by self-administering lethal medications. He is pronounced dead by a doctor, they made sure everything was done according to the rules, and they put him on a plane to LAX to transport him later on to Carolwood Drive. There he is placed on the bed in the heated room, the bottles of propofol, the IV and everything else was planted and Murray and Alvarez waited until 12:21 to call '911'. I think it was a fake call to make sure the right ambulance with the informed driver would be sent. Ambulance 71 goes to the mansion, EMT's see dead person, scratch themselves behind their ears but have no other choice then to try and resuscitate the body, since Murray is the higher authority. They bring the body to UCLA, where Cooper is the higher authority and can make sure death won't be called until the planned time of 2:26 pm. The body stayed at the UCLA morgue and nothing was transported to the coroner, which is why there was no need for a real body bag. It does mean the helicopter crew is in the know, plus the people present at that time at the coroner's office. The one sitting up in the helicopter could have been anyone. I think the person was buried on July 6th, since we have a video of the Jacksons at a burial at FL on that day. INFORMED about the hoax/sting on that day: Murray, bodyguards (FBI agents?), ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present), Chief of LAFD Barry (resigned on May 28th, 2009 and left office on August 1, 2009 after only 2 years: <!-- m -->http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-c ... 8069.story<!-- m -->) and Chief of LAPD Bratton (who resigned in August 2009, leaving in October, with 3 years left of his 5-year term: <!-- m -->http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-b ... 4648.story<!-- m -->) Ben Evenstad and his colleague, Dr. Cooper, the helicopter crew and the Coroner's office. So except from the family those are mostly government agencies and only a few civilians.
This means less people in the know. Some might suspect things, but I don't think you can avoid that, but you can make sure the number of people informed about the hoax is as low as possible. Of all the options (MJ, double, dummy, real corpse or nothing) a real corpse will have the less people involved, because I really don't think prefessional medical experts would be fooled with a dummy and IF they could be fooled with a dummy, they would have made sure the dummy looked like MJ, but it didn't.
Souza once all this hoax is over, you can write a murder book. <!-- s --><!-- s --> (Agatha Cristie)
You are saying they flew a dead person on the plane, loaded it and unloaded it and transported it to Carolwood? How can you get a dead person on a plane? In a coffin? And I know dead people are transported...like TO a funeral HOME, but is it legal to just take one to a HOME? unless you are saying cuz it's fbi??
I'm not a US citizen, so I have no clue what is legal or not in the US, but indeed if FBI is involved, who says it's not possible?
And how did they transport the body? No clue either. Coffin, body bag? Or the "Weekend at Bernie's way" (that last one was of course a joke).
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
With the pattern of thought and reasonings and teaching into logical theories, I'd say this is an attorney we are dealing with.
I am not a lawyer. I'm biomedical formed five years last and I work at a federal university hospital. So I know a few things.
Sorry, I don't no know if you're talking to me, but I answered anyway! <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Pensei que so tinha eu de brasileiro aqui =P <!-- s --><!-- s -->
Sherlock Holmes in The Final Problem. Art by Sidney Paget (1893)
“I owe you many apologies, dear Watson, but it was all-important that it should be thought I was dead, and it is quite certain that you would not have written so convincing an account of my unhappy end had you not yourself thought that it was true.” Sherlock Holmes, “The Empty House”
1. Design a persuasive death scene. The best kind—and your only option, really—is a death that leaves no recognizable body behind. Explosions or fires are good choices, provided you plant a skeleton in the wreckage that may plausibly be identified as your own. Water-related tragedies in which the corpse is unrecoverable are also ideal, as was Holmes's choice in “The Final Problem”—he made it appear as though he’d tumbled over the lofty Reichenback Falls, the treacherous bottom of which authorities didn’t even bother to search for his remains. Holmes’s footprints led up to the precipice and disappeared, leading all concerned to conclude he had fallen to his death—when in fact he merely climbed over a nearby ledge, where he hid until the scene was deserted and he could make a stealthy escape.
2. Skip town. As long as you remain near your old familiar haunts or anyone who might recognize you, you’re in danger. Get as far as possible from your home and the scene of your “death,” as quickly as you can. When Holmes miraculously returns to London in “The Empty House,” he tells Watson about the exotic places he’d lived in the intervening three years: Tibet, Persia, Mecca, and Egypt, among other distant locales. Those were extreme choices, to be sure, but extraordinarily safe ones—the chances of his meeting someone there whom he had known prior to his “death” were low indeed.
3. Assume a new identity. Though your body lives on, your former identity must die. Grow facial hair, change your walk, and develop a new accent to help bury obvious traces of your former self. While traveling far and wide, Holmes went undercover as a Norwegian explorer named Sigerson, whose exploits and discoveries were fantastic enough to make international headlines. Yet he was never recognized as Holmes himself, so convincing was this disguise.
4. Arrange access to a supply of money. Travel is expensive, and you’ll no longer have access to bank accounts or lines of credit established under your real name. You can always bring cash with you or deposit money into an anonymous offshore account, but keep in mind that making any sudden, last-minute transfers or withdrawals into that account before your death is extremely suspect behavior. If you’re able to plan your death significantly in advance, make gradual, monthly transfers over a period of several years to avoid suspicion. Less advisable was Holmes’s technique: He revealed himself to his brother Mycroft, who became Holmes’s sole confidant and source of funds. Had Mycroft been compromised in some way, Holmes’s secret would’ve been revealed, and his life put into considerable danger. Which brings us to the next point:
5. Reveal yourself to no one. The wrenching heartache endured by your loved ones is your enemies’ most convincing proof you’re really dead. Should their grief-stricken ululations seem forced or overly theatrical, someone is sure to smell a rat. This profound separation from friends and relations will undoubtedly be the most trying aspect of your ordeal, as even cold and logical Holmes admits---“Several times during the past three years I have taken up my pen to write to you,” he apologizes to Watson—but such cruel alienation is necessary. Holmes explains why: ”I feared your affectionate regard for me should tempt you to some indiscretion which would betray my secret.”
6. Wait until your enemies are at their weakest to return. With time, the fires of your enemies’ vengeance will cool, and their guard will fall. They may themselves die or be jailed (for such are dangers of the criminal life) and when they are at their most defenseless, as Holmes judged his to be shortly before his dramatic resurrection, it’s time to return home.
7. Minimize the shock to your friends and family. When Holmes finally revealed himself to Watson, he does it in such a shocking way—which Holmes himself later confesses was “unnecessarily dramatic”—that poor Watson, a veteran of war and a man of sound constitution, faints on the spot. Imagine the effect such an appearance would have on the elderly or the anxious, and do your all to introduce yourself to them gradually. Save surprising flourishes for your enemies!
The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them. I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.
A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.
If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.
Interesting posts.......
in one of my very early postings titled, "Coincidences..." I posted the gematria match for John Doe......care to guess, lol:
71 = John Doe = Im Alive = spider
71 is the number on the ambulance.........
*gematria is a basic system of giving a numeric value to letters/words..a=1, b=2, c=3 and so on....here is a link the old post, it explains it much better if you are interested in this:
<!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=253&t=10681&hilit=+coincidences<!-- l -->
Anyways.....the phrase John Doe has always peaked my curiosity...thank you very much for discussing it. Do you think the use of a John Doe could also be symbolic? Throughout Michael's life he may well have been a John Doe to us all. It seems as though not many people really knew him at all........hopefully that's about to change, in a big way <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
A real body is sick. It's just gross and weird and sick and twisted and just wrong. The American public is gonna squirm. I'm squirming. It's a hurdle to get over in the PR department. I'm a hoaxer who's just been putting my nose to the grind stone for almost 2 years developing tremendous respect for the man and his life's work and been in awe of what he has put together here, and I'm sitting here saying it's... sick.
I've read everything you guys have said and I'm sorry. It's dark and really gross and somehow it feels disrespectful to the alleged dead dude. People donate their bodies to science all the time, sure, but on no level can this hoax, in any of it's suspected or theorized forms, be considered science.
But I'm going to push further and try to debunk it once and for all. A real body seems to me to be an unnecessary risk. The paramedics are in on it, the coroner is in on it, if Richelle Cooper is on board, who else do they have to fool? Really, Dr. Cooper has to be in on it, you're not going to fool him/her on the table while he/she is applying lifesaving techniques. The only thing anyone at the hospital knows at the time is that the patient didn't make it. That's why they're not talking, because no one saw anything. With the reputation at UCLA (much discussed and documented), this is the only realistic way that NO ONE has told their story. Remember, only Jermaine said that the doctors worked on MJ for "hours". There were no reports of what went on at UCLA until 2010 with the whole wrongful death lawsuit that Joe seems to be perpetually filing (more below), and then they said that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA that day.
<!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/29/la ... -hospital/<!-- m -->
[theory]So back at the ER... Paramedics (in on it) and dummy on stretcher enter the ER. (I still think MJ might be dressed as a Paramedic at this point. Remember during the prelim, only 2 Paramedics testified and there were clearly 3 at the scene) Paramedics push stretcher directly to closed off ER wing (as reports indicated was made available) where they kill some time, prepare the dummy by wrapping in a sheet... or alternatively MJ changes out of Paramedics uniform and into sheet, not body bag, so he can breathe and not get too claustrophobic. Makes sense that MJ goes for a chopper ride so he can sit up and then do the jump out of the van scene.[/theory]
So with the body theory, where does this brief heartbeat at UCLA fit into the story? Did they successfully revive this dead person, albeit briefly? If so they are miracle workers and made a break through in medical science.
Or did Dr. Cooper (medical record) lie? If so, that indicates that Dr. Cooper is in on it anyway so again, who further would they need to fool with a corpse?
I am taking a trip back in time to the very beginning. The reports that came out regarding the L.A. Coroner’s Office, Michael/cadaver being transported in the helicopter, a press conference regarding the autopsy report, Chief Coroner Ed Winters, etc. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) -->
There's Something Fishy About Michael Jackson's Death
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Uploaded by TheYoungTurks on Jun 26, 2009
The majority of the videos that show this optical illusion are made by hoax believers. A suggestion was made. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
MJonmind wrote:
Remember the helicopter pics where clearly a body in a bag went from UCLA into the helicopter but a flat board left it and was carried into the county coroner's office. And of course we saw the movement of the body in the heli.
Michael Jackson's Body Arrives At L.A. Coroner's Office
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Uploaded by PoliticsNewsPolitics on Jun 25, 2009
Helicopter Air Rescue 5 delivers the body of Michael Jackson to the L.A. Coroner's Office for a required autopsy.
The white sheet Michael/cadaver was wrapped in is not unusual after all. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy<!-- m -->
Process
The body is received at a medical examiner's office or hospital in a body bag or evidence sheet. A brand new body bag is used for each body to ensure that only evidence from that body is contained within the bag. Evidence sheets are an alternate way to transport the body. An evidence sheet is a sterile sheet that the body is covered in when it is moved.
Read this wiki page regarding Cadaver’s and the history of them. Yikes. <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: -->
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver<!-- m -->
A cadaver, corpse or lich is a dead human body. The Latin term cadaver is normally used for a body in medical training or research.
TS_comments wrote:
The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital. And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA? MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?
I believe there was a real corpse in the room when the paramedics arrived. I believe they worked on a cadaver that was already being used for science research whether it was donated or there is more than one way to skin a cat. The Coroner’s Office has unclaimed bodies and unidentified bodies in their possession. It would not be hard to find a cadaver fitting the needs of replacing Michael with similar illnesses and drugs in the system recently or put into the body after the fact. The body would need to be somewhat newly deceased but kept on ice in the Coroner’s Office storage.
The FBI could have played a role in getting the body by using a sting operation reason. There is also the possibility that Michael has an insider at the Coroner’s Office or it could be a link through his friend Dr. Arnie Klien due to his connections with UCLA. Dr. Arnie Klien also has connections to the FDA. <!-- s:ugeek: -->:ugeek:<!-- s:ugeek: -->
Assistant Chief E. Winters who is listed in the autopsy report as the one who was involved in Michael’s death investigation. He is also the one who went to Dr. Klien’s office to get Michael’s medical records. <!-- s:ugeek: -->:ugeek:<!-- s:ugeek: -->
Assistant Chief Coroner Ed Winter's Speaks To The Press
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Michael Jackson's Autopsy Has Begun
6/26/2009 7:07 AM PDT by TMZ Staff
The Los Angeles County Coroner has started the autopsy on Michael Jackson.
Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran is performing the autopsy. The Dr. was a star witness in the O.J. Simpson case.
UPDATE: We're told some members of the Jackson family are headed to the coroner's office.
Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran is listed on the Coroner’s website as the Chief Medical Examiner Coroner. <!-- s:ugeek: -->:ugeek:<!-- s:ugeek: -->
Craig Harvey is the spokesman for the Coroner’s Office. L.A. Coroner's Office Michael Jackson Press Conference
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Uploaded by PoliticsNewsPolitics on Jun 27, 2009
The L.A. Coroner's Office holds a press conference a day after the death of Michael Jackson, and hours after an autopsy was performed. The coroner's office spokesman says the medical examiner has ordered additional testing, pathological and pulmonary, on the corpse of Michael Jackson to determine a cause of death, that will take about 4-6 weeks. No indication of foul play.
He also acknowledges that "he was taking some prescription medications," but will not answer any questions about drug.
Hoax perspective video. Just for fun and for an alternate theory of Craig Harvey.
Michael Jackson Is Alive (Death Hoax Minisode 5)
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Uploaded by misterp21 on Dec 12, 2010
Discusses Actor Craig Harvey. His ties to this whole MJ Hoax
Jackson's Body Moved to 'Undisclosed Location'
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Uploaded by AssociatedPress on Jun 27, 2009
The body of Michael Jackson, who died Thursday, has been released by the Los Angeles County coroner's office. (June 27)
You can hear Murray in the background on this version of the 911 call. <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) --> Video: The Jackson 911 Call
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Uploaded by AssociatedPress on Jun 26, 2009
The Los Angeles City Fire Department has released the 911 call from Michael Jackson's home to paramedics. Caller says the singer wasn't responding. (June 26)
MJonmind wrote:
MJ is again wrapped in the sheet (remember Black or White "I ain't scared of no sheets" ).
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan<!-- m --> The wording in Black or White is a reference to the KKK. "I aint afraid of no sheets."-MJ <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) --> KKK members wear sheets.
I do believe that one part of the sting operation deals with the drug problems in Hollywood and the over prescribing of meds by the doctors and the pharmecy that issues them.(Mickey Fine Pharmacy) I also believe it has to do with FDA issues and the manufactors of Propofol. Big pharmaceutical manufactors do not care what goes into the drugs or the side effects as long as they make a profit. Tainted medicines are resold all the time in order to dump them and make a profit.
The epidemic outbreak of swine flu made the pharm industry come up with a vaccine and it was almost mandatory to get the vaccine. This is part of the NWO plans to depopulate the world. There are so many commercials on T.V. here in the USA talking about the bad side effects from taking a so called good drug for a medical problem. These commercials talk about if you or a loved one has suffered (whatever) please call so and so office for legal help to sue. <!-- s:ugeek: -->:ugeek:<!-- s:ugeek: -->
TRUTH TV WORLD NEWS-THE NEW WORLD ORDER IS HERE! THEY ARE DUMPING CHEMICALS ON US!
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Doctors speak out about H1N1 VACCINE DANGERS
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Uploaded by 91177info on Oct 22, 2009
Baxter Patent H1N1-
<!-- m -->http://www.scribd.com/doc/17458061/Baxt ... pplication<!-- m -->
Are vaccines today more dangerous, in some cases, than the diseases? Has something gone wrong with the system or the companies making them? Filmed at the 4th International Public Conference on Vaccinations (sponsored by the Nat'l Vaccine Information Center) in October, 2009, listen to what these health professionals have to say!
Bayer Exposed ( HIV Contaminated Vaccine )
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Uploaded by octomedia on Nov 2, 2006
<!-- m -->http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html<!-- m -->
[Video] Bayer Sells AIDS-Infected Drug Banned in U.S. in Europe, Asia - Unearthed documents show that the drug company Bayer sold millions of dollars worth of an injectable blood-clotting medicine -- Factor VIII concentrate, intended for hemophiliacs -- to Asian, Latin American, and some European countries in the mid-1980s, although they knew that it was tainted with AIDS. Bayer knew about the fact that the drug was tainted and told the FDA to keep things under wraps while they made a profit off of a drug that infected its patients. If these allegations are true, then both Bayer and the FDA are at fault for this catastrophe. FDA regulators helped to keep the continued sales hidden, asking the company that the problem be ''quietly solved without alerting the Congress, the medical community and the public,'' according to the minutes of a 1985 meeting
octomedia
Robert Gallo: The Man That Created AIDS
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Uploaded by DrLeonardHorowitz on Sep 14, 2007
Where did AIDS come from? Some say it doesn't matter, as long as we find a cure. But what if the man and money that created it, are still spreading it along with lies and half-truths? Watch this clip from In Lies We Trust: The CIA, Hollywood & Bioterrorism, to learn where AIDS really originated.
3/30/2010 6:00 AM PDT by TMZ Staff
TMZ has learned doctors who worked on Michael Jackson at the UCLA Medical Center ran two EKGs on the singer, and at least one doctor who interpreted the results claims there was heart rhythmic activity both times.
Michael Jackson and Dr. Conrad Murray
Furthermore, sources tell TMZ Dr. Conrad Murray insists he was able to restart Jackson's heart at the singer's home before paramedics arrived and then maintained heart activity in the ambulance.
Dr. Murray's evaluation contradicts paramedics at the scene who wanted to take Jackson to the morgue, not UCLA, because they believed he was dead.
It also contradicts Joe Jackson's lawyer, Brian Oxman, who tells TMZ he believes Jackson was dead even before paramedics arrived at the house. Oxman says the weak pulse detected at UCLA was in reaction to resuscitation efforts.
We're told the criminal case is shaping up as a legal war between medical experts, who will be interpreting medical tests and charts in various ways -- always confusing for a jury.
the same bs as always...this TS is playin with us and we dont realize it yet? This will last 4ever! Bs! Ts u will make something new up whenever u want to cntinue with tr silly game! Stop it!
Do you think the hoax is BS? Because for me, the thing is I'd be looking for answers to questions about the hoax, how it happened and why even if TS was not here. In fact, we've established many times that there were Believers before TS. This is not to minimize TS, just sayin'...
In terms of there being a body or no body; whether MJ was alive when he got to the hospital or not; the room was very hot; the children saw MJ's body in the hospital and said goodbye to him; Soule Shaun was the alias, the paramedics didn't recognize it was MJ and the body looked like that of an old Asian man, etc, etc. ...
Couldn't all of that be a lie? Absolutely not one ounce of truth in it. None of those things happened. It just seems to me that having no body is easiest, cleanest, and involves less people. But, I'm still working on this being an irrefutable argument. Off to search for more clues! <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D -->
A real body is sick. It's just gross and weird and sick and twisted and just wrong.
I agree but what if MJ used a double who was ill but never really died...the article about Dr Murray saying he was still alive when they got to UCLA...that could mean the double...or maybe if it was a double then the double died by Euthanasia (although maybe not as it isn't legal in Cali).
A real body is sick. It's just gross and weird and sick and twisted and just wrong.
I agree but what if MJ used a double who was ill but never really died...the article about Dr Murray saying he was still alive when they got to UCLA...that could mean the double...or maybe if it was a double then the double died by Euthanasia (although maybe not as it isn't legal in Cali).
So attending EMTs remained on scene at Carrolwood for nearly an hour and then drove nice and slow after 2 tries to get out of the driveway, then proceeded to stroll into the ER at a leisurely pace with no visible medical equipment (IV or compressions being given) so as to be so cavalier with a morbidly sick man in the name of MJ's hoax?
A real body is sick. It's just gross and weird and sick and twisted and just wrong.
I agree but what if MJ used a double who was ill but never really died...the article about Dr Murray saying he was still alive when they got to UCLA...that could mean the double...or maybe if it was a double then the double died by Euthanasia (although maybe not as it isn't legal in Cali).
So attending EMTs remained on scene at Carrolwood for nearly an hour and then drove nice and slow after 2 tries to get out of the driveway, then proceeded to stroll into the ER at a leisurely pace with no visible medical equipment (IV or compressions being given) so as to be so cavalier with a morbidly sick man in the name of MJ's hoax?
Not a chance.
Maybe a dummy was taken from Carolwood to UCLA and then during that time MJ or a double or someone who was really dead got swapped and taken inside the hospital...that way there is less people in on the hoax.
The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them. I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.
A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.
If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.
Interesting posts.......
in one of my very early postings titled, "Coincidences..." I posted the gematria match for John Doe......care to guess, lol: 71 = John Doe = Im Alive = spider
71 is the number on the ambulance.........
*gematria is a basic system of giving a numeric value to letters/words..a=1, b=2, c=3 and so on....here is a link the old post, it explains it much better if you are interested in this:
<!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=253&t=10681&hilit=+coincidences<!-- l -->
Anyways.....the phrase John Doe has always peaked my curiosity...thank you very much for discussing it. Do you think the use of a John Doe could also be symbolic? Throughout Michael's life he may well have been a John Doe to us all. It seems as though not many people really knew him at all........hopefully that's about to change, in a big way <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
I stick with my version of dead person:
1. Cancer romanian patient with whom MJ had agreement to pay family when he dies as a Michael and he died at MJ's house;
2. Michael was taken to the hospital as hoax started and continued according to the plan, or
3.Michael was really bad and taken to the hospital, but did not die there, and hoax plan kicked in.
The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them. I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.
A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.
If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.
In this case, Gina, if there was even this body, it could have been frozen for several days before finally being used on June 25.
I do not agree with this theory, would be so unethical, even though the FBI involved.
Certainly there was a more practical way. I believe that.
We are just speculating here, how should I know if there was body or not?
I was just thinking a real body means less people involved.
no body or a dummy or the real MJ alive means they are all in, the emt, UCLA and the coroner.
The other alternative is that was the read Michael - dead <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( -->
scorpionchik, I think the intricate long-planned numerology of dates does not fit with a random death, unless it was an assisted suicide, which I'm uncomfortable with, but of course who knows.
The 911 call has to be fake because they hung up on the caller, and there are two different 911 call takes. But even if they dispatched real EMT's, and a cadaver had been brought to the house and unknowing EMT's worked on him, would they even be able to get the tracheal tube into him if he had been dead for a few hours, even if on ice and warmed by the the high room temp. Eventually at the house when they found out it was MJ, they must have thought things were highly suspicious, all those drugs everywhere, a doctor that doesn't seem to know what he's doing and didn't even call 911 right away. When they get to the hospital "someone" clearly sits up on the stretcher right in front of them. Nope, I just can't see the 3 paramedics not in on it. Then 2 at UCLA and maybe 2 at the coroners need to be in on it.
bec
Warm room was a ruse to throw us off the trail. It was a rabbit hole, but the rabbit hole had a fork in it.
I think Lou Ferrigno’s story of MJ sending an ambulance with a manniquin to deter paps, is another ruse to throw us off the trail. There's a labyrinth of blocked paths to confuse.
PureLove
Aha that's what I was referring to when I was talking about Karen Fake when she was talking about her doing the make up of MJ for the funeral. They might have used a dummy like that for the funeral that looked exactly like Michael and probably Karen made the make up on him and of course she didn't recognize it wasn't Michael.
I think she's in on it, and her job is to spur non-believers on for justice. I've seen the videos of her emotional and she's just as convincing as LaToya or Katherine. Anyway, she could instead have been working 9 hours on MJ himself (alive of course), and as well Paris put that half necklace on him. The other Michael and LaToya were helping to dress him. If it was a dead MJ or another person, or dummy, oh come on! They can't be that clueless.
lilwendy
Also note the tatooed on eyes and eyebrows... wasn't that mentioned in the autopsy report?
Please debunk because I haven't REALLY thought it through.
In some videos and pics of MJ, he's not wearing eye-liner or lipstick and others he is, so I don't think they were tatooed. I think much of the autopsy was just parts of other autopsies and embellished with things that the gullible public would eat up about MJ.
SoldierofLOVE
4. Arrange access to a supply of money. Travel is expensive, and you’ll no longer have access to bank accounts or lines of credit established under your real name. You can always bring cash with you or deposit money into an anonymous offshore account, but keep in mind that making any sudden, last-minute transfers or withdrawals into that account before your death is extremely suspect behavior. If you’re able to plan your death significantly in advance, make gradual, monthly transfers over a period of several years to avoid suspicion. Less advisable was Holmes’s technique: He revealed himself to his brother Mycroft, who became Holmes’s sole confidant and source of funds. Had Mycroft been compromised in some way, Holmes’s secret would’ve been revealed, and his life put into considerable danger. Which brings us to the next point:
Some of the lawsuits against MJ (possibly even the 20 mill of the first chi/mol case) the money could have been actually sent to an account saved all these years for this hoax.
It seems to me that for every option of the “dead” MJ in the ambulance to the hospital, there is several details propping it up and several that rule it out. Could this have deliberately been done by MJ to keep us going in circles and make sure that the truth was not easily gotten?
Wishingstar I liked your latest Gematria find of 71= John Doe = Im Alive= spider
PureLove, thanks for the video showing that whoever was at the coroner may have been the living dead!
[youtube:3u8d1mqq]
The biggest thing I see against my thinking that it is MJ himself as the "dead" MJ being taken to UCLA, is the statement by TS that there needs to be as few as possible in on the hoax, in which case it would need to be a conveniently dead person who matches MJ in age, body size, sex etc. which to me (as Bec says) kinda gives the hoax an unpleasant taste. MJ values each person, and using even a cadaver with no family says that person is of no value, and I think MJ wouldn't want to say or imply that, but I could be wrong. He always took such great care with each person no matter who they were, that's part of why I love him.
.......
3.Michael was really bad and taken to the hospital, but did not die there, and hoax plan kicked in.
This is a possibility.let's say he was sick and tired and wanted to get away.....maybe he told his people "just tell them I died"....but it doesn't match with the idea that the hoax was planned for years.
Ambulance personnel and doctors are there to save people. Even if it is needed when someone's life can be saved by faking his death and the FBI is involved. Everything was well prepared and the people involved knew exactly what he or she had to do on the morning of June 25.
The crime scene was trimmed and the 911 call was made and Alvarez said exactly what he was commanded to tell. Ambulance arrived but knew what to do because of the script. A living MJ was well prepared in the ambulance with the mouth cap etc, because they knew there would be photographers outside the house. In the famous photograph of BE you see a hand on MJ chest. But when I'm on a photo with a burning cigarette in my mouth, it does not necessarily mean that I smoke. So who says that the EMT was really pumping his chest. I think they had al lot of fun on the way to the hospital. The doctor took over from there and they gave the family a little time to say goodbye. I do not think Frank D and Randy P saw MJ when he was in the hospital, even if he was dead.
MJ escaped by helicopter in the direction of the coroner’s office and from there they brought him to a safe place. They prepared a fake autopsy report and ready.
Perhaps you think, this way there are too many people involved. Sometimes you have to take a risk and in case of MJ and his status, it can hardly be otherwise. Most people involved are not allowed to talk by their profession.
The stories are all scripted and the people who do not know, tell their story as they have experienced it. I hope it’s clear what I’m trying to tell, because English is not my first language.
I thought I posted last night but can't find it so I'll say again what I thought I'd already said!
It's hard to keep on topic, i.e. just talk about the ambulance ride from the house to the hospital. We keep jumping ahead to what happened at the hospital, helicopter, van and coroner's. I think this is because for the most part, we're assuming that whatever happened in the bedroom regarding a body/dummy/no body continued through all the other events of the day.
Have we considered that all these locations could be separate, like scenes or sets in a movie? The situation regarding a body/no body/dummy in the bedroom may have been changed for the ambulance ride, changed for the hospital and so on and so on?
I don't think we necessarily need to find one option that fits all locations.
With this in mind, we might find it easier to focus only on the ambulance ride. It might also explain why TS, if he knows that things were different in different places, asked us to look just at this part, like he's already got them separated out in his mind, but we haven't!
.......
3.Michael was really bad and taken to the hospital, but did not die there, and hoax plan kicked in.
This is a possibility.let's say he was sick and tired and wanted to get away.....maybe he told his people "just tell them I died"....but it doesn't match with the idea that the hoax was planned for years.
Some people assume that the hoax was planned for years, but who says it's the truth! So what you are saying is in my opinion not such a crazy idea.
The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them. I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.
A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.
If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.
Yes he could. In the neighbour state Oregon, plus in Washington and Montana, assisted suicide is legal. There are some rules of course, but you can choose your own date of death. After going through the 'approval procedure', a doctor can prescribe the lethal medications to the terminally ill patient and then the patient has to administer it himself. I am just thinking about some articles like "Michael Jackson 6 months to live" (in order to get approval for assisted suicide, you must have a life expectation of 6 months or less), "MJ killed himself" "MJ looked like sick old frail man", add to that the painkiller addictions, which many terminally ill patients have and it's starting to look like assisted suicide. I sent an email to determine if it's possible for someone from one of those states to self-administer the drugs in a state where it's not (yet) legal. If not, it is possible that they flew the body in on the morning of June 25th, right after the person was pronounced dead by a doctor in Oregon/Washington/Montana. We still have that close-down at LAX that morning. Was it really someone leaving, or (also) someone arriving? It would also explain why the body was already cold and stiff, even though the room temp was that high. The person would have been dead for hours, and that is what the EMT's thought.
It would also mean that the EMT's in the back of the ambulance, might not even be in the know. They would certainly think something is going on, but that doesn't mean they really KNOW. We think it's all fishy, and we don't know either. They might have been told that there is a shadow investigation going on by the FBI considering MJ's death and that the ambulance picture was faked for a certain reason. That is just a thought, but point is that if their supervisor tells them to shut up because the FBI is involved, they will. I do think the driver is in the know, because he backed out that slow. There is a difference between knowing something is wrong, and really KNOW about the hoax. I think only those absolutely necessary are truly knowing what's going on, because if this is a sting, there is also something like the safety of people and the operation. Who doesn't know, can't talk.
Same goes for people in the hospital. I believe one or two people at the hospital really KNOW, the ones in the room when they brought in the body might only suspect. We haven't heard from anyone at the hospital, which shows me that they too were asked not to talk about it. And the fire alarm at the hospital made sure that only a select few would be able to see the body (damage control).
An autopsy is not required with assisted suicide, so I don't think there even was an autopsy. The cause of death on the DC will be stated as natural, with mention of the decease. No autopsy is needed. The coroner's office knows, they have to. If he didn't slice up MJ, he knows it's a hoax, so in any case the coroner is aware of the hoax. An e-mail I received today from the coroner's office confirms that for me. It was a reply to a question I sent them in October 2009, which is extremely strange. It came from the chief of public services and I am pretty sure she receives many emails, questions and requests. An email from October 2009 would definitely be buried by now, so this tells me she saved it somewhere. Why answer now after 18 months? (still mailing, I will post it if something interesting comes up).
So a real body would definitely bring the number of people in on it down.
As for a living person (MJ or double) or no one at all being in the ambulance, that would increase the people in on it. You can't perform CPR on a person that is perfectly fine or non-exsisting, which means it was all a show and anyone in the room at Carolwood, the EMT's and everyone present in the hospital are in the know. Also, MJ or the double should leave the hospital at a certain moment, and with all the fans and paparazzi present there, that would be way too risky. I don't believe that they would take such a risk.
A real body might not be 'entertaining', but if this is a sting operation, it simply might have been necessary.
On a sidenote: I think Alberto Alvarez is an FBI agent and maybe the other bodyguards as well.
So in a nutshell, here is what I think might have occured that day:
Early morning: Terminally ill patient ends his life by self-administering lethal medications. He is pronounced dead by a doctor, they made sure everything was done according to the rules, and they put him on a plane to LAX to transport him later on to Carolwood Drive. There he is placed on the bed in the heated room, the bottles of propofol, the IV and everything else was planted and Murray and Alvarez waited until 12:21 to call '911'. I think it was a fake call to make sure the right ambulance with the informed driver would be sent. Ambulance 71 goes to the mansion, EMT's see dead person, scratch themselves behind their ears but have no other choice then to try and resuscitate the body, since Murray is the higher authority. They bring the body to UCLA, where Cooper is the higher authority and can make sure death won't be called until the planned time of 2:26 pm. The body stayed at the UCLA morgue and nothing was transported to the coroner, which is why there was no need for a real body bag. It does mean the helicopter crew is in the know, plus the people present at that time at the coroner's office. The one sitting up in the helicopter could have been anyone. I think the person was buried on July 6th, since we have a video of the Jacksons at a burial at FL on that day. INFORMED about the hoax/sting on that day: Murray, bodyguards (FBI agents?), ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present), Chief of LAFD Barry (resigned on May 28th, 2009 and left office on August 1, 2009 after only 2 years: <!-- m -->http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-c ... 8069.story<!-- m -->) and Chief of LAPD Bratton (who resigned in August 2009, leaving in October, with 3 years left of his 5-year term: <!-- m -->http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-b ... 4648.story<!-- m -->) Ben Evenstad and his colleague, Dr. Cooper, the helicopter crew and the Coroner's office. So except from the family those are mostly government agencies and only a few civilians.
This means less people in the know. Some might suspect things, but I don't think you can avoid that, but you can make sure the number of people informed about the hoax is as low as possible. Of all the options (MJ, double, dummy, real corpse or nothing) a real corpse will have the less people involved, because I really don't think prefessional medical experts would be fooled with a dummy and IF they could be fooled with a dummy, they would have made sure the dummy looked like MJ, but it didn't.
Souza once all this hoax is over, you can write a murder book. <!-- s --><!-- s --> (Agatha Cristie)
You are saying they flew a dead person on the plane, loaded it and unloaded it and transported it to Carolwood? How can you get a dead person on a plane? In a coffin? And I know dead people are transported...like TO a funeral HOME, but is it legal to just take one to a HOME? unless you are saying cuz it's fbi??
interesting theory souza. it definitely makes sense.
as far as flying a body, all i can offer is personal knowledge. my grandma passed away in california, but she wanted to be buried in south dakota. we flew her about a month after she died. it took a while to get the death certificate. she was flown in her coffin that was put in a cardboard box i believe (so people don't have to see a coffin being loaded onto the plane i surmise). this was of course a commercial plane. if michael had help from the FBI as well as a private plane (both seem accessible), then this transition could have been much, much smoother than the norm.
i don't think there are any legal constrictions as to where you take the body. if you are next of kin or put in the will, then technically you are responsible for the body. i am not completely sure about this though.
Comments
So maybe paramedics worked on a real patient but MJ was just photoshopped in.
You are saying they flew a dead person on the plane, loaded it and unloaded it and transported it to Carolwood? How can you get a dead person on a plane? In a coffin? And I know dead people are transported...like TO a funeral HOME, but is it legal to just take one to a HOME? unless you are saying cuz it's fbi??
And how did they transport the body? No clue either. Coffin, body bag? Or the "Weekend at Bernie's way" (that last one was of course a joke).
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."Pensei que so tinha eu de brasileiro aqui =P <!-- s
Sherlock Holmes in The Final Problem. Art by Sidney Paget (1893)
“I owe you many apologies, dear Watson, but it was all-important that it should be thought I was dead, and it is quite certain that you would not have written so convincing an account of my unhappy end had you not yourself thought that it was true.” Sherlock Holmes, “The Empty House”
1. Design a persuasive death scene. The best kind—and your only option, really—is a death that leaves no recognizable body behind. Explosions or fires are good choices, provided you plant a skeleton in the wreckage that may plausibly be identified as your own. Water-related tragedies in which the corpse is unrecoverable are also ideal, as was Holmes's choice in “The Final Problem”—he made it appear as though he’d tumbled over the lofty Reichenback Falls, the treacherous bottom of which authorities didn’t even bother to search for his remains. Holmes’s footprints led up to the precipice and disappeared, leading all concerned to conclude he had fallen to his death—when in fact he merely climbed over a nearby ledge, where he hid until the scene was deserted and he could make a stealthy escape.
2. Skip town. As long as you remain near your old familiar haunts or anyone who might recognize you, you’re in danger. Get as far as possible from your home and the scene of your “death,” as quickly as you can. When Holmes miraculously returns to London in “The Empty House,” he tells Watson about the exotic places he’d lived in the intervening three years: Tibet, Persia, Mecca, and Egypt, among other distant locales. Those were extreme choices, to be sure, but extraordinarily safe ones—the chances of his meeting someone there whom he had known prior to his “death” were low indeed.
3. Assume a new identity. Though your body lives on, your former identity must die. Grow facial hair, change your walk, and develop a new accent to help bury obvious traces of your former self. While traveling far and wide, Holmes went undercover as a Norwegian explorer named Sigerson, whose exploits and discoveries were fantastic enough to make international headlines. Yet he was never recognized as Holmes himself, so convincing was this disguise.
4. Arrange access to a supply of money. Travel is expensive, and you’ll no longer have access to bank accounts or lines of credit established under your real name. You can always bring cash with you or deposit money into an anonymous offshore account, but keep in mind that making any sudden, last-minute transfers or withdrawals into that account before your death is extremely suspect behavior. If you’re able to plan your death significantly in advance, make gradual, monthly transfers over a period of several years to avoid suspicion. Less advisable was Holmes’s technique: He revealed himself to his brother Mycroft, who became Holmes’s sole confidant and source of funds. Had Mycroft been compromised in some way, Holmes’s secret would’ve been revealed, and his life put into considerable danger. Which brings us to the next point:
5. Reveal yourself to no one. The wrenching heartache endured by your loved ones is your enemies’ most convincing proof you’re really dead. Should their grief-stricken ululations seem forced or overly theatrical, someone is sure to smell a rat. This profound separation from friends and relations will undoubtedly be the most trying aspect of your ordeal, as even cold and logical Holmes admits---“Several times during the past three years I have taken up my pen to write to you,” he apologizes to Watson—but such cruel alienation is necessary. Holmes explains why: ”I feared your affectionate regard for me should tempt you to some indiscretion which would betray my secret.”
6. Wait until your enemies are at their weakest to return. With time, the fires of your enemies’ vengeance will cool, and their guard will fall. They may themselves die or be jailed (for such are dangers of the criminal life) and when they are at their most defenseless, as Holmes judged his to be shortly before his dramatic resurrection, it’s time to return home.
7. Minimize the shock to your friends and family. When Holmes finally revealed himself to Watson, he does it in such a shocking way—which Holmes himself later confesses was “unnecessarily dramatic”—that poor Watson, a veteran of war and a man of sound constitution, faints on the spot. Imagine the effect such an appearance would have on the elderly or the anxious, and do your all to introduce yourself to them gradually. Save surprising flourishes for your enemies!
Interesting posts.......
in one of my very early postings titled, "Coincidences..." I posted the gematria match for John Doe......care to guess, lol:
71 = John Doe = Im Alive = spider
71 is the number on the ambulance.........
*gematria is a basic system of giving a numeric value to letters/words..a=1, b=2, c=3 and so on....here is a link the old post, it explains it much better if you are interested in this:
<!-- l -->viewtopic.php?f=253&t=10681&hilit=+coincidences<!-- l -->
Anyways.....the phrase John Doe has always peaked my curiosity...thank you very much for discussing it. Do you think the use of a John Doe could also be symbolic? Throughout Michael's life he may well have been a John Doe to us all. It seems as though not many people really knew him at all........hopefully that's about to change, in a big way <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
Blessings to you guys.....thanks again!
LOVE
I've read everything you guys have said and I'm sorry. It's dark and really gross and somehow it feels disrespectful to the alleged dead dude. People donate their bodies to science all the time, sure, but on no level can this hoax, in any of it's suspected or theorized forms, be considered science.
But I'm going to push further and try to debunk it once and for all. A real body seems to me to be an unnecessary risk. The paramedics are in on it, the coroner is in on it, if Richelle Cooper is on board, who else do they have to fool? Really, Dr. Cooper has to be in on it, you're not going to fool him/her on the table while he/she is applying lifesaving techniques. The only thing anyone at the hospital knows at the time is that the patient didn't make it. That's why they're not talking, because no one saw anything. With the reputation at UCLA (much discussed and documented), this is the only realistic way that NO ONE has told their story. Remember, only Jermaine said that the doctors worked on MJ for "hours". There were no reports of what went on at UCLA until 2010 with the whole wrongful death lawsuit that Joe seems to be perpetually filing (more below), and then they said that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA that day.
<!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/29/la ... -hospital/<!-- m -->
[theory]So back at the ER... Paramedics (in on it) and dummy on stretcher enter the ER. (I still think MJ might be dressed as a Paramedic at this point. Remember during the prelim, only 2 Paramedics testified and there were clearly 3 at the scene) Paramedics push stretcher directly to closed off ER wing (as reports indicated was made available) where they kill some time, prepare the dummy by wrapping in a sheet... or alternatively MJ changes out of Paramedics uniform and into sheet, not body bag, so he can breathe and not get too claustrophobic. Makes sense that MJ goes for a chopper ride so he can sit up and then do the jump out of the van scene.[/theory]
So with the body theory, where does this brief heartbeat at UCLA fit into the story? Did they successfully revive this dead person, albeit briefly? If so they are miracle workers and made a break through in medical science.
Or did Dr. Cooper (medical record) lie? If so, that indicates that Dr. Cooper is in on it anyway so again, who further would they need to fool with a corpse?
There's Something Fishy About Michael Jackson's Death
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy<!-- m --> Read this wiki page regarding Cadaver’s and the history of them. Yikes. <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: -->
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver<!-- m --> I believe there was a real corpse in the room when the paramedics arrived. I believe they worked on a cadaver that was already being used for science research whether it was donated or there is more than one way to skin a cat. The Coroner’s Office has unclaimed bodies and unidentified bodies in their possession. It would not be hard to find a cadaver fitting the needs of replacing Michael with similar illnesses and drugs in the system recently or put into the body after the fact. The body would need to be somewhat newly deceased but kept on ice in the Coroner’s Office storage.
The FBI could have played a role in getting the body by using a sting operation reason. There is also the possibility that Michael has an insider at the Coroner’s Office or it could be a link through his friend Dr. Arnie Klien due to his connections with UCLA. Dr. Arnie Klien also has connections to the FDA. <!-- s:ugeek: -->:ugeek:<!-- s:ugeek: -->
<!-- m -->http://coroner.lacounty.gov/htm/Coroner_Home.htm<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://coroner.lacounty.gov/htm/ucplist.cfm<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://coroner.lacounty.gov/htm/uipsearc.cfm<!-- m -->
Assistant Chief E. Winters who is listed in the autopsy report as the one who was involved in Michael’s death investigation. He is also the one who went to Dr. Klien’s office to get Michael’s medical records. <!-- s:ugeek: -->:ugeek:<!-- s:ugeek: -->
Assistant Chief Coroner Ed Winter's Speaks To The Press
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran is being reported as the one who did the autopsy. <!-- s:ugeek: -->:ugeek:<!-- s:ugeek: -->
<!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-j ... has-begun/<!-- m -->
Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran is listed on the Coroner’s website as the Chief Medical Examiner Coroner. <!-- s:ugeek: -->:ugeek:<!-- s:ugeek: -->
Craig Harvey is the spokesman for the Coroner’s Office.
L.A. Coroner's Office Michael Jackson Press Conference
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Michael Jackson Is Alive (Death Hoax Minisode 5)
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Jackson's Body Moved to 'Undisclosed Location'
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Video: The Jackson 911 Call
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
The wording in Black or White is a reference to the KKK. "I aint afraid of no sheets."-MJ <!-- s8-) -->8-)<!-- s8-) --> KKK members wear sheets.
I do believe that one part of the sting operation deals with the drug problems in Hollywood and the over prescribing of meds by the doctors and the pharmecy that issues them.(Mickey Fine Pharmacy) I also believe it has to do with FDA issues and the manufactors of Propofol. Big pharmaceutical manufactors do not care what goes into the drugs or the side effects as long as they make a profit. Tainted medicines are resold all the time in order to dump them and make a profit.
The epidemic outbreak of swine flu made the pharm industry come up with a vaccine and it was almost mandatory to get the vaccine. This is part of the NWO plans to depopulate the world. There are so many commercials on T.V. here in the USA talking about the bad side effects from taking a so called good drug for a medical problem. These commercials talk about if you or a loved one has suffered (whatever) please call so and so office for legal help to sue. <!-- s:ugeek: -->:ugeek:<!-- s:ugeek: -->
TRUTH TV WORLD NEWS-THE NEW WORLD ORDER IS HERE! THEY ARE DUMPING CHEMICALS ON US!
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Doctors speak out about H1N1 VACCINE DANGERS
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Bayer Exposed ( HIV Contaminated Vaccine )
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
Robert Gallo: The Man That Created AIDS
[youtube:3ulg4adv]
I found some interesting things......
a couple of imdb.com listings for John Doe:
<!-- m -->http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033891/<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0007170/<!-- m -->
here is the Wiki for John Doe.....it has some interesting facts about the origins of the phrase:
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Doe<!-- m -->
I think that's about it for tonight...I think we need a "sleepy" emoticon 3>)
Love and Blessings!
3/30/2010 6:00 AM PDT by TMZ Staff
TMZ has learned doctors who worked on Michael Jackson at the UCLA Medical Center ran two EKGs on the singer, and at least one doctor who interpreted the results claims there was heart rhythmic activity both times.
Michael Jackson and Dr. Conrad Murray
Furthermore, sources tell TMZ Dr. Conrad Murray insists he was able to restart Jackson's heart at the singer's home before paramedics arrived and then maintained heart activity in the ambulance.
Dr. Murray's evaluation contradicts paramedics at the scene who wanted to take Jackson to the morgue, not UCLA, because they believed he was dead.
It also contradicts Joe Jackson's lawyer, Brian Oxman, who tells TMZ he believes Jackson was dead even before paramedics arrived at the house. Oxman says the weak pulse detected at UCLA was in reaction to resuscitation efforts.
We're told the criminal case is shaping up as a legal war between medical experts, who will be interpreting medical tests and charts in various ways -- always confusing for a jury.
<!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/<!-- m -->
In terms of there being a body or no body; whether MJ was alive when he got to the hospital or not; the room was very hot; the children saw MJ's body in the hospital and said goodbye to him; Soule Shaun was the alias, the paramedics didn't recognize it was MJ and the body looked like that of an old Asian man, etc, etc. ...
Couldn't all of that be a lie? Absolutely not one ounce of truth in it. None of those things happened. It just seems to me that having no body is easiest, cleanest, and involves less people. But, I'm still working on this being an irrefutable argument. Off to search for more clues!
So attending EMTs remained on scene at Carrolwood for nearly an hour and then drove nice and slow after 2 tries to get out of the driveway, then proceeded to stroll into the ER at a leisurely pace with no visible medical equipment (IV or compressions being given) so as to be so cavalier with a morbidly sick man in the name of MJ's hoax?
Not a chance.
Maybe a dummy was taken from Carolwood to UCLA and then during that time MJ or a double or someone who was really dead got swapped and taken inside the hospital...that way there is less people in on the hoax.
Very interesting approach, thank you.
1. Cancer romanian patient with whom MJ had agreement to pay family when he dies as a Michael and he died at MJ's house;
2. Michael was taken to the hospital as hoax started and continued according to the plan, or
3.Michael was really bad and taken to the hospital, but did not die there, and hoax plan kicked in.
We are just speculating here, how should I know if there was body or not?
I was just thinking a real body means less people involved.
no body or a dummy or the real MJ alive means they are all in, the emt, UCLA and the coroner.
The other alternative is that was the read Michael - dead <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( -->
The 911 call has to be fake because they hung up on the caller, and there are two different 911 call takes. But even if they dispatched real EMT's, and a cadaver had been brought to the house and unknowing EMT's worked on him, would they even be able to get the tracheal tube into him if he had been dead for a few hours, even if on ice and warmed by the the high room temp. Eventually at the house when they found out it was MJ, they must have thought things were highly suspicious, all those drugs everywhere, a doctor that doesn't seem to know what he's doing and didn't even call 911 right away. When they get to the hospital "someone" clearly sits up on the stretcher right in front of them. Nope, I just can't see the 3 paramedics not in on it. Then 2 at UCLA and maybe 2 at the coroners need to be in on it. I think Lou Ferrigno’s story of MJ sending an ambulance with a manniquin to deter paps, is another ruse to throw us off the trail. There's a labyrinth of blocked paths to confuse.
I think she's in on it, and her job is to spur non-believers on for justice. I've seen the videos of her emotional and she's just as convincing as LaToya or Katherine. Anyway, she could instead have been working 9 hours on MJ himself (alive of course), and as well Paris put that half necklace on him. The other Michael and LaToya were helping to dress him. If it was a dead MJ or another person, or dummy, oh come on! They can't be that clueless.
In some videos and pics of MJ, he's not wearing eye-liner or lipstick and others he is, so I don't think they were tatooed. I think much of the autopsy was just parts of other autopsies and embellished with things that the gullible public would eat up about MJ. Some of the lawsuits against MJ (possibly even the 20 mill of the first chi/mol case) the money could have been actually sent to an account saved all these years for this hoax.
It seems to me that for every option of the “dead” MJ in the ambulance to the hospital, there is several details propping it up and several that rule it out. Could this have deliberately been done by MJ to keep us going in circles and make sure that the truth was not easily gotten?
Wishingstar I liked your latest Gematria find of 71= John Doe = Im Alive= spider
PureLove, thanks for the video showing that whoever was at the coroner may have been the living dead!
[youtube:3u8d1mqq]
The biggest thing I see against my thinking that it is MJ himself as the "dead" MJ being taken to UCLA, is the statement by TS that there needs to be as few as possible in on the hoax, in which case it would need to be a conveniently dead person who matches MJ in age, body size, sex etc. which to me (as Bec says) kinda gives the hoax an unpleasant taste. MJ values each person, and using even a cadaver with no family says that person is of no value, and I think MJ wouldn't want to say or imply that, but I could be wrong. He always took such great care with each person no matter who they were, that's part of why I love him.
This is a possibility.let's say he was sick and tired and wanted to get away.....maybe he told his people "just tell them I died"....but it doesn't match with the idea that the hoax was planned for years.
Ambulance personnel and doctors are there to save people. Even if it is needed when someone's life can be saved by faking his death and the FBI is involved. Everything was well prepared and the people involved knew exactly what he or she had to do on the morning of June 25.
The crime scene was trimmed and the 911 call was made and Alvarez said exactly what he was commanded to tell. Ambulance arrived but knew what to do because of the script. A living MJ was well prepared in the ambulance with the mouth cap etc, because they knew there would be photographers outside the house. In the famous photograph of BE you see a hand on MJ chest. But when I'm on a photo with a burning cigarette in my mouth, it does not necessarily mean that I smoke. So who says that the EMT was really pumping his chest. I think they had al lot of fun on the way to the hospital. The doctor took over from there and they gave the family a little time to say goodbye. I do not think Frank D and Randy P saw MJ when he was in the hospital, even if he was dead.
MJ escaped by helicopter in the direction of the coroner’s office and from there they brought him to a safe place. They prepared a fake autopsy report and ready.
Perhaps you think, this way there are too many people involved. Sometimes you have to take a risk and in case of MJ and his status, it can hardly be otherwise. Most people involved are not allowed to talk by their profession.
The stories are all scripted and the people who do not know, tell their story as they have experienced it. I hope it’s clear what I’m trying to tell, because English is not my first language.
It's hard to keep on topic, i.e. just talk about the ambulance ride from the house to the hospital. We keep jumping ahead to what happened at the hospital, helicopter, van and coroner's. I think this is because for the most part, we're assuming that whatever happened in the bedroom regarding a body/dummy/no body continued through all the other events of the day.
Have we considered that all these locations could be separate, like scenes or sets in a movie? The situation regarding a body/no body/dummy in the bedroom may have been changed for the ambulance ride, changed for the hospital and so on and so on?
I don't think we necessarily need to find one option that fits all locations.
With this in mind, we might find it easier to focus only on the ambulance ride. It might also explain why TS, if he knows that things were different in different places, asked us to look just at this part, like he's already got them separated out in his mind, but we haven't!
Just some thoughts.
Some people assume that the hoax was planned for years, but who says it's the truth! So what you are saying is in my opinion not such a crazy idea.
interesting theory souza. it definitely makes sense.
as far as flying a body, all i can offer is personal knowledge. my grandma passed away in california, but she wanted to be buried in south dakota. we flew her about a month after she died. it took a while to get the death certificate. she was flown in her coffin that was put in a cardboard box i believe (so people don't have to see a coffin being loaded onto the plane i surmise). this was of course a commercial plane. if michael had help from the FBI as well as a private plane (both seem accessible), then this transition could have been much, much smoother than the norm.
i don't think there are any legal constrictions as to where you take the body. if you are next of kin or put in the will, then technically you are responsible for the body. i am not completely sure about this though.