.......
3.Michael was really bad and taken to the hospital, but did not die there, and hoax plan kicked in.
This is a possibility.let's say he was sick and tired and wanted to get away.....maybe he told his people "just tell them I died"....but it doesn't match with the idea that the hoax was planned for years.
Some people assume that the hoax was planned for years, but who says it's the truth! So what you are saying is in my opinion not such a crazy idea.
But in this case all the numerology meant nothing?
All the hoax started under the impulse of the last moment?
A real body is sick. It's just gross and weird and sick and twisted and just wrong. The American public is gonna squirm. I'm squirming. It's a hurdle to get over in the PR department. I'm a hoaxer who's just been putting my nose to the grind stone for almost 2 years developing tremendous respect for the man and his life's work and been in awe of what he has put together here, and I'm sitting here saying it's... sick.
I've read everything you guys have said and I'm sorry. It's dark and really gross and somehow it feels disrespectful to the alleged dead dude. People donate their bodies to science all the time, sure, but on no level can this hoax, in any of it's suspected or theorized forms, be considered science.
But I'm going to push further and try to debunk it once and for all. A real body seems to me to be an unnecessary risk. The paramedics are in on it, the coroner is in on it, if Richelle Cooper is on board, who else do they have to fool? Really, Dr. Cooper has to be in on it, you're not going to fool him/her on the table while he/she is applying lifesaving techniques. The only thing anyone at the hospital knows at the time is that the patient didn't make it. That's why they're not talking, because no one saw anything. With the reputation at UCLA (much discussed and documented), this is the only realistic way that NO ONE has told their story. Remember, only Jermaine said that the doctors worked on MJ for "hours". There were no reports of what went on at UCLA until 2010 with the whole wrongful death lawsuit that Joe seems to be perpetually filing (more below), and then they said that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA that day.
<!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/29/la ... -hospital/<!-- m -->
[theory]So back at the ER... Paramedics (in on it) and dummy on stretcher enter the ER. (I still think MJ might be dressed as a Paramedic at this point. Remember during the prelim, only 2 Paramedics testified and there were clearly 3 at the scene) Paramedics push stretcher directly to closed off ER wing (as reports indicated was made available) where they kill some time, prepare the dummy by wrapping in a sheet... or alternatively MJ changes out of Paramedics uniform and into sheet, not body bag, so he can breathe and not get too claustrophobic. Makes sense that MJ goes for a chopper ride so he can sit up and then do the jump out of the van scene.[/theory]
So with the body theory, where does this brief heartbeat at UCLA fit into the story? Did they successfully revive this dead person, albeit briefly? If so they are miracle workers and made a break through in medical science.
Or did Dr. Cooper (medical record) lie? If so, that indicates that Dr. Cooper is in on it anyway so again, who further would they need to fool with a corpse?
Hey bec!
Yes, I totally get your uneasiness about a real body. It creeps me out to no end. Come to think of it...even a realistic dummy could be a John Doe. I like this quote of yours from above:
"The only thing anyone at the hospital knows at the time is that the patient didn't make it. "
I think that's very right...also, you mentioned Jermaine had said the doctors worked for hours on MJ. I do recall that...and come to think of it (again), how can that be? MJ arrived at the hospital a little after 1pm (correct?) and he was pronounced dead just before 3pm (correct?) where do hours come into play? The news conference was later on....6pm or so? The deal with hour vs hours reminds me of the memorial with pain vs pains.
You'll have to excuse me....I haven't had my morning tea or coffee yet..feeling more tea-like today, lol! Anyways..great post bec.....hope you have a beautiful day!
Wasn't there a story about MJ hanging out at a funeral home or morgue asking questions about the embalming process? Wasn't it after James Brown's funeral? Or am I making things up?
Bec - I totally get and respect how you feel about a real body being used. And I would suspect that a lot of people would feel the same way. But I do think that many will feel how I do as well. Whether it's morbid or not, perhaps it was necessary to pull the hoax off. And I'm sure it wasn't a casual decision. I would bet very careful and respectful planning went into it.
I guess I just think of it differently. I mean, it's just a body. And spiritually speaking, I personally don't care what happens to my body when I leave this earth. Have any of you ever been to a cadaver lab? I was forced to spend some time there when I was in school. At first it made me want to puke, but by the end of it I felt differently. The souls the bodies belonged to obviously chose to be there. Not only are their bodies there, they are cut open and disesembled just so students can learn where things are located. I got to hold a human head for a few seconds one day, if you want to talk about morbid <!-- s --><!-- s -->
I'm just saying - I don't think it's that important how we individually feel about the morality of using a real body. People around the world are all going to react differently to MJ not really being dead, period. Some are going to throw a hissy fit regardless, and some are going to celebrate. What's sick and morbid to ME is that the world is being lied to by the media and the government about virtually everything we perceive to be true. If one dead body had to be used in order to fight back, then I think only God can judge that.
Wasn't there a story about MJ hanging out at a funeral home or morgue asking questions about the embalming process? Wasn't it after James Brown's funeral? Or am I making things up?Bec - I totally get and respect how you feel about a real body being used. And I would suspect that a lot of people would feel the same way. But I do think that many will feel how I do as well. Whether it's morbid or not, perhaps it was necessary to pull the hoax off. And I'm sure it wasn't a casual decision. I would bet very careful and respectful planning went into it.
I guess I just think of it differently. I mean, it's just a body. And spiritually speaking, I personally don't care what happens to my body when I leave this earth. Have any of you ever been to a cadaver lab? I was forced to spend some time there when I was in school. At first it made me want to puke, but by the end of it I felt differently. The souls the bodies belonged to obviously chose to be there. Not only are their bodies there, they are cut open and disesembled just so students can learn where things are located. I got to hold a human head for a few seconds one day, if you want to talk about morbid <!-- s --><!-- s -->
I'm just saying - I don't think it's that important how we individually feel about the morality of using a real body. People around the world are all going to react differently to MJ not really being dead, period. Some are going to throw a hissy fit regardless, and some are going to celebrate. What's sick and morbid to ME is that the world is being lied to by the media and the government about virtually everything we perceive to be true. If one dead body had to be used in order to fight back, then I think only God can judge that.
Wasn't there a story about MJ hanging out at a funeral home or morgue asking questions about the embalming process? Wasn't it after James Brown's funeral? Or am I making things up?
Bec - I totally get and respect how you feel about a real body being used. And I would suspect that a lot of people would feel the same way. But I do think that many will feel how I do as well. Whether it's morbid or not, perhaps it was necessary to pull the hoax off. And I'm sure it wasn't a casual decision. I would bet very careful and respectful planning went into it.
I guess I just think of it differently. I mean, it's just a body. And spiritually speaking, I personally don't care what happens to my body when I leave this earth. Have any of you ever been to a cadaver lab? I was forced to spend some time there when I was in school. At first it made me want to puke, but by the end of it I felt differently. The souls the bodies belonged to obviously chose to be there. Not only are their bodies there, they are cut open and disesembled just so students can learn where things are located. I got to hold a human head for a few seconds one day, if you want to talk about morbid <!-- s --><!-- s -->
I'm just saying - I don't think it's that important how we individually feel about the morality of using a real body. People around the world are all going to react differently to MJ not really being dead, period. Some are going to throw a hissy fit regardless, and some are going to celebrate. What's sick and morbid to ME is that the world is being lied to by the media and the government about virtually everything we perceive to be true. If one dead body had to be used in order to fight back, then I think only God can judge that.
Hey jaci....great to see you!
You make some really good points as well......wow, I think I am glad the cadaver lab was not on the art history list of requirements, lol! Really interesting, however. I think the bottom line is that of respect. Thanks for the great post.....hope things are going well for you! <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
Have a beautiful day....
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
umm is there any possibility that the ambulance showed up with a body already in it? <!-- s:? -->:?<!-- s:? -->
Excellent question, suspiciousmind! This would make so much sense, to have the body already in the ambulance. It would tie up so many loose ends and ethical questions concerning a donor body. Of course the paramedics would have had to be in on it.
If the body was already inside of the ambulance, why did they heat MJ's room? And if the paramedics are in on the hoax, why did they say that they couldn't recognize MJ and the patient was looking like an old man with a bald head?
Can it be it was Michael in the room disguised as a old and bald man? So the emt wouldn't recognize him ? That would fool the EMT.
If the EMTs are not in on the hoax, why would he bother to disguise himself? The disguise could fool them but the health condition couldn't. They would understand that he was healthy and not dead(!) after they worked on him. So no reason to disguise himself as an old man.
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
That's really the bottom line in my opinion.
This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.
All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.
And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.
Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.
1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility <!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm<!-- m --> If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.
2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/<!-- m --> also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.
Saying, "well the FBI are involved so that makes anything possible" is a cop out, in my opinion. I almost wish the FBI thing was thrown out of the discussion because it's like saying "well they used magical powers so anything is possible"... we might as well throw all logic and common sense out the table if we are to fall back on FBI involvement every time we hit a roadblock in hypothesis.
Either Docs at UCLA were:
1. Fooled (ruled out by point #1)
2. Unaware (kept on need-to-know basis, "the patient did not make it"-end of briefing, leaves no trace)
3. In On It (any body totally unnecessary)
But I believe at least Dr. Cooper needs to be in on it, as he/she has made statements (refer to point #1) and has sat on the stand at Prelim.
So I pose the open question again, who would the use of a real body be trying to fool???
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
I still go with a dead body was used theory. It doesn't sound sick or impossible to me. And no need to be a magic that FBI did. It's not too hard to find someone died close to that hour and they might have used it to keep as few people as possible on the hoax. Michael didn't need to plan every each of the details, FBI was helping him out about it too. So it could be FBI's choice to use a dead body. And as I wrote before, just a couple of key people in everywhere like the coroner, the hospital etc would be enough to pull the hoax.
My head will give a knot! <!-- s:roll: -->:roll:<!-- s:roll: -->
Whatever the theory, if there were a hoax, there is another way: the paramedics, the team of dr. Cooper and the coroner's staff has to know the hoax. A doctor does not work alone, much less a lawyer. So, at least 10 people would knowed everything.
Then:
1.Se was a synthetic doll, paramedics, doctors and coroners have to know.
2. If there was nobody in the ambulance or if it was a double alive, they also would of necessity know.
3. If there was any cadaver, somebody that not looked like Michael, they also discover that.
Just in this theory has exemptions the knowledge of many people:
4. If it was a cadaver of the double maybe none of them would need to know, just a few FBI agents but then comes the question of ethics, legal and emotional. I do not know if Michael would do that, depending on the story, maybe.
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.......
3.Michael was really bad and taken to the hospital, but did not die there, and hoax plan kicked in.
This is a possibility.let's say he was sick and tired and wanted to get away.....maybe he told his people "just tell them I died"....but it doesn't match with the idea that the hoax was planned for years.
Some people assume that the hoax was planned for years, but who says it's the truth! So what you are saying is in my opinion not such a crazy idea.
But in this case all the numerology meant nothing?
All the hoax started under the impulse of the last moment?
First I respect everyone's opinions and I'm open to anything, but try to see things from both sides. If you believe that numerology means anything, I will be the last to say that you shouldn't.
Your thoughts that MJ was sick and tired and wanted to leave, in this case it is quite possible that he deliberately chose that date .... born-burned-hoax.
But the clues and numerology aren't the reasons that I do believe in the hoax. So for me it is quite possible that everything had to happen suddenly. The longer you do preparations, the greater the chance that something leaked. And if the FBI is involved here, I don't think MJ had much choice to make things fit into the numerology. And besides that, who cares about numerology if your life is at stake
Aren't we a bit of topic here <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
PureLove can be, but still, I agree with Bec and Fordtocarr. Many would blame Michael! See what's happening in the trial, for many, even dead he's guilty! <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( -->
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
PureLove can be, but still, I agree with Bec and Fordtocarr. Many would blame Michael! See what's happening in the trial, for many, even dead he's guilty! <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( -->
Haters will be haters always. But I do not believe fans would find him guilty after the formal explanation of the hoax. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
But the clues and numerology aren't the reasons that I do believe in the hoax.
Then you're on the wrong thread, lol. You are actually off topic but that's another topic <!-- s --><!-- s -->
A doctor does not work alone, much less a lawyer. So, at least 10 people would knowed everything.
Not necessarily, I addressed this in an earlier post. I was actually trying to debunk my own theory, that from UCLA, only Dr. Cooper would be in on it. Of course Dr. Cooper would have a real life team to be accounted for. So, let's say no one at UCLA, including Dr. Cooper's team, knew a thing other then "the patient did not make it". There were no reports of what happened at UCLA that day, and no Dr.'s name mentioned, until March 2010, when articles came out saying MJ had a heartbeat in ER. For 9 months (June-March), only Jermaine mentioned anything at all about what happened in ER, so there were no official statements, ie. nothing for those at the scene to refute, "hey wait a minute, I was there, that's not what happened", would not be risked.
For 9 months, "the patient did not make it" would certainly suffice, happens every day in ER. No one saw anything so no one talks... there's nothing to say.
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
PureLove can be, but still, I agree with Bec and Fordtocarr. Many would blame Michael! See what's happening in the trial, for many, even dead he's guilty! <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( -->
Haters will be haters always. But I do not believe fans would find him guilty after the formal explanation of the hoax. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
I have discovered from reading the fan forum discussions, roughly about half the fans think MJ is (they think was) a junkie that is in part responsible for his own death anyway.
If the fans would condemn him based on the illusion he presented, how even they gonna feel about the use of a real person's corpse when the hoax is revealed?
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
PureLove can be, but still, I agree with Bec and Fordtocarr. Many would blame Michael! See what's happening in the trial, for many, even dead he's guilty! <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( -->
Haters will be haters always. But I do not believe fans would find him guilty after the formal explanation of the hoax. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
I have discovered from reading the fan forum discussions, roughly about half the fans think MJ is (they think was) a junkie that is in part responsible for his own death anyway.
If the fans would condemn him based on the illusion he presented, how even they gonna feel about the use of a real person's corpse when the hoax is revealed?
It's not just haters that will be turned off.
When the explanation comes from the FBI and MJ, I do not think that they will be turned off. If they do so, that means they're not fans of him and they are already haters of him. So I don't think Michael would care about what they would think or feel and neither should we care about them. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
And besides, caring is beside the point. No one has refuted my 2 strong points against the body theory. PR aka caring what people think is totally irrelevant in the debate points I presented.
Can it be it was Michael in the room disguised as a old and bald man? So the emt wouldn't recognize him ? That would fool the EMT.
If the EMTs are not in on the hoax, why would he bother to disguise himself? The disguise could fool them but the health condition couldn't. They would understand that he was healthy and not dead(!) after they worked on him. So no reason to disguise himself as an old man.
I'm not being disrespectful, but maybe MJ without the make-up, wig etc actually does look like a bald, old man, at least a balding, older man - there's nothing wrong with that aged 50! Perhaps that's what he wanted them to see, to find out if they would recognise him, a bit of an experiment to find out if appearing 'au naturale' was the best disguise ever! Could be that it was/is.
Michael is trying to save the world, yes? I think he cares a great deal just by default.
You can't say he cares enough to save the world and then also say he doesn't care what they think.
It's too different things Bec. To save the world and to think for what every each of the people would feel like about the details of the hoax. He knows that he can not make everyone think and feel the same way. I'm sure that Michael already knew that he would be losing some fans as some of the fans would not even find out about the hoax. Loosing some soldiers to win the war is inevitable and I do believe that he got that risk when he decided to do the hoax.
Michael is trying to save the world, yes? I think he cares a great deal just by default.
You can't say he cares enough to save the world and then also say he doesn't care what they think.
It's too different things Bec. To save the world and to think for what every each of the people would feel like about the details of the hoax. He knows that he can not make everyone think and feel the same way. I'm sure that Michael already knew that he would be losing some fans as some of the fans would not even find out about the hoax. Loosing some soldiers to win the war is inevitable and I do believe that he got that risk when he decided to do the hoax.
Again, it's totally beside my 2 debate points. No one has yet stepped up to debunk them. That's why we are here, so says TS. So let's debate.
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.
1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility <!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002<!-- m --> ... _death.htm If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.
2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu<!-- m --> ... ful-death/ also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.
Can it be it was Michael in the room disguised as a old and bald man? So the emt wouldn't recognize him ? That would fool the EMT.
If the EMTs are not in on the hoax, why would he bother to disguise himself? The disguise could fool them but the health condition couldn't. They would understand that he was healthy and not dead(!) after they worked on him. So no reason to disguise himself as an old man.
I'm not being disrespectful, but maybe MJ without the make-up, wig etc actually does look like a bald, old man, at least a balding, older man - there's nothing wrong with that aged 50! Perhaps that's what he wanted them to see, to find out if they would recognise him, a bit of an experiment to find out if appearing 'au naturale' was the best disguise ever! Could be that it was/is.
So you say the EMTS are in on the hoax, right? Why would Michael like to test the EMTs if they could recognize him or not, especially on a day like that? He uses disguises all the time and he already knew they could not recognize him in a disguise. So IMO he didn't need to use a disguise to test the EMTs that day, especially if the EMTs are in on the hoax, he didn't need to use any disguises.
Michael is trying to save the world, yes? I think he cares a great deal just by default.
You can't say he cares enough to save the world and then also say he doesn't care what they think.
It's too different things Bec. To save the world and to think for what every each of the people would feel like about the details of the hoax. He knows that he can not make everyone think and feel the same way. I'm sure that Michael already knew that he would be losing some fans as some of the fans would not even find out about the hoax. Loosing some soldiers to win the war is inevitable and I do believe that he got that risk when he decided to do the hoax.
Again, it's totally beside my 2 debate points. No one has yet stepped up to debunk them. That's why we are here, so says TS. So let's debate.
Come on, hit me, lol.
I know hun, I was replying to AnaMarcia and your anwers about how the fans would feel like about the hoax. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> I gotta read your post once more and I need to think more about how I can write the exact thoughts of mine in english. <!-- s --><!-- s --> I will be quoting your debate points when I was answering that one. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
PureLove can be, but still, I agree with Bec and Fordtocarr. Many would blame Michael! See what's happening in the trial, for many, even dead he's guilty! <!-- s:( -->:(<!-- s:( -->
Haters will be haters always. But I do not believe fans would find him guilty after the formal explanation of the hoax. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Clearly as we get into the more serious issues of the hoax there's going to be some desertion in the ranks; can't be helped. This isn't all fun & games here. Thanks for posting the video about Trauma Gershwin; I have the whole playlist on YT and have talked to kittycat10100 for over a yr on her investigations. We've discussed the body & FBI issue for a long time. She found so much evidence that she knows MJ is alive, but didn't want to endanger his life. She had all her findings written in her comments on her channel but has DELETED everything; good thing I still have notes... What she's found now she wouldn't say, but she's still digging & helping with those Autopsy vids.
On the body double issue: A LONG time ago E Casanova had a notice on his MySpace page he had a terminal illness. I saw it. He disappeared...then MAGICALLY reappeared alive & well with a new MySpace page & song 'What's Wrong With Your Mind' that starts out with heartbeats & ambulance sounds; this continues through out the song. CREEPY...? Code Blue Room #305. So what happened? Another diversion or strange part of this??? <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
Comments
But in this case all the numerology meant nothing?
All the hoax started under the impulse of the last moment?
Hey bec!
Yes, I totally get your uneasiness about a real body. It creeps me out to no end. Come to think of it...even a realistic dummy could be a John Doe. I like this quote of yours from above:
"The only thing anyone at the hospital knows at the time is that the patient didn't make it. "
I think that's very right...also, you mentioned Jermaine had said the doctors worked for hours on MJ. I do recall that...and come to think of it (again), how can that be? MJ arrived at the hospital a little after 1pm (correct?) and he was pronounced dead just before 3pm (correct?) where do hours come into play? The news conference was later on....6pm or so? The deal with hour vs hours reminds me of the memorial with pain vs pains.
You'll have to excuse me....I haven't had my morning tea or coffee yet..feeling more tea-like today, lol! Anyways..great post bec.....hope you have a beautiful day!
Blessings Always!
Bec - I totally get and respect how you feel about a real body being used. And I would suspect that a lot of people would feel the same way. But I do think that many will feel how I do as well. Whether it's morbid or not, perhaps it was necessary to pull the hoax off. And I'm sure it wasn't a casual decision. I would bet very careful and respectful planning went into it.
I guess I just think of it differently. I mean, it's just a body. And spiritually speaking, I personally don't care what happens to my body when I leave this earth. Have any of you ever been to a cadaver lab? I was forced to spend some time there when I was in school. At first it made me want to puke, but by the end of it I felt differently. The souls the bodies belonged to obviously chose to be there. Not only are their bodies there, they are cut open and disesembled just so students can learn where things are located. I got to hold a human head for a few seconds one day, if you want to talk about morbid <!-- s
I'm just saying - I don't think it's that important how we individually feel about the morality of using a real body. People around the world are all going to react differently to MJ not really being dead, period. Some are going to throw a hissy fit regardless, and some are going to celebrate. What's sick and morbid to ME is that the world is being lied to by the media and the government about virtually everything we perceive to be true. If one dead body had to be used in order to fight back, then I think only God can judge that.
at this link describes the time <!-- m -->[url=spehttp://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1382&start=25nt]spehttp://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.c ... start=25nt[/url]<!-- m --> by Michael with James Brown after he died, he spent a number of hours with James at the funeral home.
Hey jaci....great to see you!
You make some really good points as well......wow, I think I am glad the cadaver lab was not on the art history list of requirements, lol! Really interesting, however. I think the bottom line is that of respect. Thanks for the great post.....hope things are going well for you! <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
Have a beautiful day....
Blessings Always!
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
If the EMTs are not in on the hoax, why would he bother to disguise himself? The disguise could fool them but the health condition couldn't. They would understand that he was healthy and not dead(!) after they worked on him. So no reason to disguise himself as an old man.
That's really the bottom line in my opinion.
This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.
All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.
And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.
Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.
1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility <!-- m -->http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm<!-- m --> If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.
2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA <!-- m -->http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/<!-- m --> also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.
Saying, "well the FBI are involved so that makes anything possible" is a cop out, in my opinion. I almost wish the FBI thing was thrown out of the discussion because it's like saying "well they used magical powers so anything is possible"... we might as well throw all logic and common sense out the table if we are to fall back on FBI involvement every time we hit a roadblock in hypothesis.
Either Docs at UCLA were:
1. Fooled (ruled out by point #1)
2. Unaware (kept on need-to-know basis, "the patient did not make it"-end of briefing, leaves no trace)
3. In On It (any body totally unnecessary)
But I believe at least Dr. Cooper needs to be in on it, as he/she has made statements (refer to point #1) and has sat on the stand at Prelim.
So I pose the open question again, who would the use of a real body be trying to fool???
Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
I still go with a dead body was used theory. It doesn't sound sick or impossible to me. And no need to be a magic that FBI did. It's not too hard to find someone died close to that hour and they might have used it to keep as few people as possible on the hoax. Michael didn't need to plan every each of the details, FBI was helping him out about it too. So it could be FBI's choice to use a dead body. And as I wrote before, just a couple of key people in everywhere like the coroner, the hospital etc would be enough to pull the hoax.
Whatever the theory, if there were a hoax, there is another way: the paramedics, the team of dr. Cooper and the coroner's staff has to know the hoax. A doctor does not work alone, much less a lawyer. So, at least 10 people would knowed everything.
Then:
1.Se was a synthetic doll, paramedics, doctors and coroners have to know.
2. If there was nobody in the ambulance or if it was a double alive, they also would of necessity know.
3. If there was any cadaver, somebody that not looked like Michael, they also discover that.
Just in this theory has exemptions the knowledge of many people:
4. If it was a cadaver of the double maybe none of them would need to know, just a few FBI agents but then comes the question of ethics, legal and emotional. I do not know if Michael would do that, depending on the story, maybe.
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First I respect everyone's opinions and I'm open to anything, but try to see things from both sides. If you believe that numerology means anything, I will be the last to say that you shouldn't.
Your thoughts that MJ was sick and tired and wanted to leave, in this case it is quite possible that he deliberately chose that date .... born-burned-hoax.
But the clues and numerology aren't the reasons that I do believe in the hoax. So for me it is quite possible that everything had to happen suddenly. The longer you do preparations, the greater the chance that something leaked. And if the FBI is involved here, I don't think MJ had much choice to make things fit into the numerology. And besides that, who cares about numerology if your life is at stake
Aren't we a bit of topic here <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->
Haters will be haters always. But I do not believe fans would find him guilty after the formal explanation of the hoax. <!-- s;) -->;)<!-- s;) -->
Then you're on the wrong thread, lol. You are actually off topic but that's another topic <!-- s
Not necessarily, I addressed this in an earlier post. I was actually trying to debunk my own theory, that from UCLA, only Dr. Cooper would be in on it. Of course Dr. Cooper would have a real life team to be accounted for. So, let's say no one at UCLA, including Dr. Cooper's team, knew a thing other then "the patient did not make it". There were no reports of what happened at UCLA that day, and no Dr.'s name mentioned, until March 2010, when articles came out saying MJ had a heartbeat in ER. For 9 months (June-March), only Jermaine mentioned anything at all about what happened in ER, so there were no official statements, ie. nothing for those at the scene to refute, "hey wait a minute, I was there, that's not what happened", would not be risked.
For 9 months, "the patient did not make it" would certainly suffice, happens every day in ER. No one saw anything so no one talks... there's nothing to say.
I have discovered from reading the fan forum discussions, roughly about half the fans think MJ is (they think was) a junkie that is in part responsible for his own death anyway.
If the fans would condemn him based on the illusion he presented, how even they gonna feel about the use of a real person's corpse when the hoax is revealed?
It's not just haters that will be turned off.
When the explanation comes from the FBI and MJ, I do not think that they will be turned off. If they do so, that means they're not fans of him and they are already haters of him. So I don't think Michael would care about what they would think or feel and neither should we care about them. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
You can't say he cares enough to save the world and then also say he doesn't care what they think.
I'm not being disrespectful, but maybe MJ without the make-up, wig etc actually does look like a bald, old man, at least a balding, older man - there's nothing wrong with that aged 50! Perhaps that's what he wanted them to see, to find out if they would recognise him, a bit of an experiment to find out if appearing 'au naturale' was the best disguise ever! Could be that it was/is.
It's too different things Bec. To save the world and to think for what every each of the people would feel like about the details of the hoax. He knows that he can not make everyone think and feel the same way. I'm sure that Michael already knew that he would be losing some fans as some of the fans would not even find out about the hoax. Loosing some soldiers to win the war is inevitable and I do believe that he got that risk when he decided to do the hoax.
Again, it's totally beside my 2 debate points. No one has yet stepped up to debunk them. That's why we are here, so says TS. So let's debate.
Come on, hit me, lol.
So you say the EMTS are in on the hoax, right? Why would Michael like to test the EMTs if they could recognize him or not, especially on a day like that? He uses disguises all the time and he already knew they could not recognize him in a disguise. So IMO he didn't need to use a disguise to test the EMTs that day, especially if the EMTs are in on the hoax, he didn't need to use any disguises.
I know hun, I was replying to AnaMarcia and your anwers about how the fans would feel like about the hoax. <!-- s:D -->:D<!-- s:D --> I gotta read your post once more and I need to think more about how I can write the exact thoughts of mine in english. <!-- s
Clearly as we get into the more serious issues of the hoax there's going to be some desertion in the ranks; can't be helped. This isn't all fun & games here. Thanks for posting the video about Trauma Gershwin; I have the whole playlist on YT and have talked to kittycat10100 for over a yr on her investigations. We've discussed the body & FBI issue for a long time. She found so much evidence that she knows MJ is alive, but didn't want to endanger his life. She had all her findings written in her comments on her channel but has DELETED everything; good thing I still have notes... What she's found now she wouldn't say, but she's still digging & helping with those Autopsy vids.
On the body double issue: A LONG time ago E Casanova had a notice on his MySpace page he had a terminal illness. I saw it. He disappeared...then MAGICALLY reappeared alive & well with a new MySpace page & song 'What's Wrong With Your Mind' that starts out with heartbeats & ambulance sounds; this continues through out the song. CREEPY...? Code Blue Room #305. So what happened? Another diversion or strange part of this??? <!-- s:?: -->:?:<!-- s:?: -->
http://www.myspace.com/ecasanovafansite