I'm curious about what the muslim members on this board think of Walid Shoebat's conclusion; is he misrepresenting your sacred texts or is he accurate in his description of the "Mahdi" ? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />@MJonmind: I don't see that at all. <br /><br />If the one sheep went astray, that implies he/she was following at one point. He won't let his sheep perish I agree, but you have to belong to him in the first place. Yeshua himself made that distinction:<br /><br />
[size=12pt]John 6:39-40[/size] (NIV)<br />[size=8pt]39[/size] [size=10pt]And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. [/size] [size=8pt]40[/size] [size=10pt]For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.[/size]
<br /><br />Not just everyone, but everyone who looks to Yeshua, that relies on and trusts him (like the crucified thief). That one thief on the cross chose "Team Yeshua" at the last second yes; that doesn't contradict any of what I said. In contrast to him however, do not forget about the second thief who was not repentant. What happens to him as you understand it?<br /><br />He also said this:<br />
[size=12pt]John 17:9[/size] (NIV)<br />[size=8pt]9[/size] [size=10pt]I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.[/size]
<br /><br />Sounds like he has been given a portion, not the whole world. Albeit, I think he's drawing people from all parts of the world.<br /><br />From cover-to-cover we find examples of YHWH separating people and continually adding to that one group (asking them to have solidarity and not go back to the world). There's a clear separation. I may sound coldhearted for asking this, but, using the hypothetical percentage from my example, why would he want the 6,930,000,000 who (after everything he has done) still choose to hate/disobey and won't rely on him no matter what? they refused the "marriage proposal", so not only are they not his "wife", they're not even his betrothed. If that is the analogy the bible is making (Yeshua coming back to "marry" his bride/the church/the believers) and we know he's not an adulterer, then whoever is not "betrothed" to him will not be living with him in the future. <br /><br />I also came across this article written from a messianic Jew perspective; it says the whole bible is a marriage covenant: http://www.apocalypsesoon.org/xfile-20.html
<br />I'm curious about what the muslim members on this board think of Walid Shoebat's conclusion; is he misrepresenting your sacred texts or is he accurate in his description of the "Mahdi" ? <br /><br /><br /><br />
<br /><br />Thank you for sharing. What a hateful speech. He is not only misrepresenting but lying, twisting and misinterpreting the meaning of the scripture and spreading hatred towards Muslims -- this is a quite offensive video and I'm not going to say anything more about it as I consider what he is saying to not be worthy material for debate.<br /><br />Nevertheless I am still going to tell what I personally believe based upon my understanding/belief as a Muslim: The Mahdi has no basis in the Qur’an because he is not mentionned at all, it is only based on the hadiths. It is important to know what the hadiths are: they are sayings/teachings supposedly coming from the Prophet Muhamed; they have been "compiled" by mere humans more than 200 years after his death. My belief is that the hadiths shouldn’t be a source of religion because they are men-made, not divine, not proven, and most of all because God asks us specifically to uphold His Word only as a source of law in religion because it is fully detailed. This directly contradicts the upholding of hadiths which are from other than God. <br /><br />6:114 Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.<br /><br />There are other verses but I'm not going to quote them all. Also and it's ironic but there is a hadith saying that the Prophet asked the people to not write anything after his death apart from the Qur'an. Yet most people fail to realize this big contradiction and still uphold them as truth.<br /><br />Anyway this is another subject but in my opinion it is important to understand on what this belief of the Mahdi is based on. <br /><br />So the coming Mahdi belief is based on hadiths only, which are not divine revelations. Not all Muslims will agree on what I am saying about the hadiths, very few actually. In conclusion I am personally not waiting for the Mahdi to come. This is just my opinion on this.<br /><br />
<br />I came across this today:<br /><br />“When we speak of Christ and Anti-Christ are we sure we are referring to individuals who will save or destroy us or are we referring to systems?<br /><br />A faithless, demon-infested reality that could be described as the System of Anti-Christ.<br /><br />Or our collective return to Christ, the avatar of God’s Truth, Peace and Love.”<br /><br />http://kevboyle.blogspot.com/2012/02/protocols-20-23-program-of-theft-and.html<br /><br />So are we sure that it is about individuals? <br />
Thanks for the insight Sarahli. That sounds very much like the situation in Judaism: rabbi-made traditions and opinions being held on a higher pedestal than YHWH's commands (Talmud vs Torah). :? <br /><br />All three Abrahamic religions seem to be suffering from the same thing: their man-made traditions have taken over, obscuring the truth of their divinely-inspired texts. Maybe someone can help me out here, but aside from church tradition, is there anything else in Christianity in written form that resembles this?
<br />Thanks for the insight Sarahli. That sounds very much like the situation in Judaism: rabbi-made traditions and opinions being held on a higher pedestal than YHWH's commands (Talmud vs Torah). :? <br /><br />All three Abrahamic religions seem to be suffering from the same thing: their [size=12pt]man-made traditions have taken over, obscuring the truth of their divinely-inspired texts.[/size] Maybe someone can help me out here, but aside from church tradition, is there anything else in Christianity in written form that resembles this?<br />
<br /><br />You're welcome Melody. What I have highlighted in your post sums up pretty much well what I think.
<br />Melody, the verse right before the parable of Jesus finding the lost sheep out of 99, is:<br />
11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
<br />Also in the truest sense[size=10pt] Jesus was, “only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”, not Gentiles which is who most of us are. If you say all Gentiles are grafted in and adopted, then all the unsaved are THAT lost sheep that he will find and bring into the fold.[/size]<br /><br />[size=10pt]It is interesting to me that though today's Jews often becoming Messianic Christians, boast that they know the Bible best, they are pointing fingers at Muslims, and they themselves are not even true Israelites. About 90% of todays Jews are Khazarian (Gentile), and about 10% are Sephardic or coming from Esau. Somehow they are now the authorities on understanding Scripture. Christians who believe Jews as being the Biblical Israelites, are also likely to believe that Osama Bin Laden and Muslim extremists actually were the ones behind 911, and not Israel and USA together which I believe. Jews are highly intelligent, have mastered the hebrew language, ancient cultures and thinking, but they don't know everything, and can actually be self-deceived about many things. So speakers like these 2 in video may be very smart, know a lot, but not everything--in fact they could have missed some key elements that change EVERYTHING in the end. <br /><br />Melody, thank you for this link.<br />http://www.apocalypsesoon.org/xfile-20.html<br />This wedding between the Messiah and his bride, absolutely and very beautifully describes the unity of the Bible. However the intention of God the Father, is that the bride will include ALL humanity, just as Adam represents all humanity. Faith comes from God, and we are not able to think clearly on this accepting or rejecting of the Messiah. Young children and mentally handicapped cannot understand the invitation of the Messiah, people who have never heard the invitation clearly enough cannot respond to the invitation. And I'd say another huge number of people reject the invitation because the proposer (Jesus) to them seems not like a loving husband, but like an abuser, vindictive bringer of the sword and bloodshed to billions. [/size]<br /><br />[size=10pt]Then there is the matter of even knowing if you are one of Jesus sheep at all, if you don’t keep all the commandments perfectly. Jesus may in the end say to you, “Depart from me, I never knew you.” All analogies, break down at some point, because they are only meant to get a point across. If Jesus is the bridegroom, and believers in Jesus are the bride, then where are all the guests? Perhaps Jesus' standard is so high, there is only 144,000 saved, and the rest destroyed. Boy if that were true, there would sure be some awful scrapping amongst Christians as to who would get in.[/size]<br /><br />[size=10pt]I believe that God will give faith to ALL people, because he can do that in the blink of an eye, just as he zapped Apostle Paul and gave him faith. <br /><br />Here again are some of the verses from the site I linked to above:<br />[/size]
[size=small]<br /> Christ, to whom, in whom, and for whom are all things will reconcile all things unto God (Colossians 1:15-20). He makes all things new. (Rev. 21:5) Hence His work is the restitution of all things (Acts 3:21); He is Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2); in Him not only all nations will be blessed (Galatians 3: 8) , but even every family of the earth will be blessed (Gen 12:32; 28:14); for the Father has given Him authority over all flesh, to give to whosoever was given to Him eternal life (John 17:2); and so all flesh shall see the salvation of God (Luke 3:6) since the Father has given all things into His hands. (John 3:35) Therefore, contrary to popular Christian opinion, we do not find billions in a Hell cursing God but we find every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and UNDER the earth saying blessing and honour and glory and power be unto Him that sits upon the throne and unto the Lamb (Rev. 5:13). We find every knee of things in heaven and earth, and under the earth, bends to Him and every tongue confesses Him as their Lord (Philippians 2:10) and we know that no one can confess Jesus as Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3). As we can see, ninety nine is not enough![/size][size=small]For God, Whose counsel is immutable (Hebrews 6:17), Whose attitude towards His enemies is love unchanging (Luke 6:27-35), will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth (1 Timothy 2:4, KJV); and all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9); and has shut all up unto unbelief, in order that he may show mercy upon all (Romans 11:32); for (out) of Him, as Source, and unto (or into) Him, as End, are all things whatsoever (Romans 11:36); and He has, therefore, put all things into subjection under Christ's feet (Ephesians 1:22). As we can see, ninety nine is not enough![/size][size=small]And so we are assured that God will gather into one all things in Christ (Ephesians 1:10); and His grace comes upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18). So Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands (John 13:3), promises by His Cross to draw (drag in the Greek) all men unto Himself (John 12:32). For having, as stated, received all things from the Father (John 3:35), all that was given come to Him shall come to Him and He will lose absolutely no one (John 6:37-39); but if any stray, He goes after that which is lost till He find it (Luke 15:4). Despite the fact that many of God's chosen and elect believe God's hand is too short to save (Isaiah 50:2) God's hand is not too short to save (Isaiah 59:1; 63:5). As we can see, ninety nine is not enough![/size][size=small]He comes in order that all men may believe (John 1:17); that the world, through Him, may be saved (John 3:17); His grace brings salvation to all men (Titus 2:11); for He takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29); gives His flesh for it's Life (John 6:51); and, because the gifts and calling of God are without Repentance (Romans 9:29), He gives life to the world (John 6:33); is the light of the world (John 8:12); is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1John 2:2); is the Savior of all men (1Timothy 4:10); destroys the works of the devil, not some of them only (1John 3: 8) ; abolishes death (2 Timothy 1:10); puts all His enemies under His feet including death (1 Cor. 15:26), is manifest to put away sin (Hebrews 9:26); and thus subduing all things unto Himself (Philippians 3:21; the context clearly shows this subjection to be conformity to Himself); does not forget the dead, but takes the gospel to Hades (1Peter 3:19); of which He holds the keys (Revelation 1:18); for He is the same (Savior) for ever (Hebrews 13: 8) ; thus even the dead are evangelized (1Peter 4:6). As we can see, ninety nine is not enough![/size][size=small]Thus all are made alive in Him (1Corinthians 15:22); for Christ finishes, completes His work (John 17:4; 19:30): restores all things (Acts 3:21); and there is no more curse (Revelation 22:2-3); for the creation is delivered from the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:21); and so comes the end when Christ delivers up the Kingdom to God, Who is then All in All because ALL God's enemies are defeated, the last enemy being death, NOT eternally alive being endlessly punished. (1Corinthians 15:24-28). As we can see, ninety nine is not enough![/size][size=small]Salvation is a gift from God, it is not of works lest anyone be found boasting (Eph 2: 8) and that gift has been given to all men despite the fact that some of God's own people don't like such generous grace. ( Rom. 5:8; Matt. 5:1-16) As we can see, ninety nine is not enough![/size][size=small]We can be assured of all these wonderful and glorious things because nothing is too difficult for Him (Luke 1:37) and while many things are impossible with man, nothing is impossible with God. (Matt. 19:26) Furthermore, God is love (1 John 4: 8) , a love that love never fails (1 Cor. 13: 8) , a love that lays down His life for not only His own, but His enemies as well and commands His disciples to do likewise.. (Matt. 5:38-48) Therefore, for God to endlessly punish His enemies would make Him a hypocrite commanding less powerful and less loving human beings to do what He is not willing to do. (Matt. 23) As we can see, ninety nine is not enough![/size][size=small]There is nothing that can withstand His will and no plan of His can be thwarted. (Job 4:42) The Son came to save the world and not condemn it (Luke 5:59). Jesus asked the Father to forgive those who crucified Him (all of us) (Luke 23:34) The Father has laid the iniquity of us all upon the Lamb of God (Isaiah 53:6). Jesus died for all of us. (John 1:29) To punish us now would be double jeopardy. Indeed, we can enter into His peace, believing that it is indeed finished! (John 19:30) The gift of life has been given to everyone. ( Rom. 5:18) As we can see, ninety nine is not enough! Can YOU now see, that ninety nine is not enough![/size][size=small]http://www.tentmaker.org/inspirationals/ninetynine.html[/size]
@MJonmind: We differ in our interpretation of "all men" which, as I understand it, means "not just the Jews, not just the Greeks, not just the Romans, but people from all nations". Of the individuals that come out of the world, from all these groups, he will not let a single one of them go astray because by definition these are the ones his Father has given him. <br /><br />That has to be the interpretation otherwise it contradicts the whole compilation of books; like I said before, the theme of "separation" is weaved throughout the text, from beginning to end, even down to the rituals. Allow me to illustrate: the unclean had to stand outside of the camp, away from the rest of the community, away from the clean, away from the Tabernacle where YHWH dwelled; YHWH did not want the unclean in his presence (Leviticus 22:3). <br /><br />To use a specific example, let's say the source of their uncleanness was an infection; after 7 days the priest would come to check on the infected, if their infectious disease was healed they could come back into the camp on that seventh day only after the priest cleansed them and made a sin-offering for them. Then the newly cleansed person would come to the Tabernacle on the eighth day (Leviticus 14:23). If the infected person did not "heal" of his or her "infection", he/she could never come back into the camp, into his presence (Leviticus 13:46) like-wise, the impure spirit (wickedness) is the infection humanity suffers from, an infection which he heals (Luke 6:18), the new testament says we need to be cleansed by the washing of the word (Ephesians 5:26) and Yeshua is our sin-offering (Hebrews 9:28), following the same logic if a person is not cleansed by the word, walking in his holy spirit (Galatians 5:25) as opposed to the wicked spirit, nor accepts the only sacrifice that will atone for them on the seventh day (the period we're in right now), they cannot be in his presence, they will not live with him in the future "8th day" yet to come. A different example: when a ruling was declared by the priest or the judge, and the Israelite did not want to obey the priest/the ruling, the Israelite had to be put to death/purged from the community (Deuteronomy 17:9-12), like-wise those who do not listen to Yeshua (the high-priest) are going to experience the second death (Rev 21:8[size=1pt]'[/size]), permanent purging; then of course there is the reference to the separation of the wheat from the chaff at his return (Matthew 3:12). How can you possibly strike out this consistent theme? The parallels ping-pong back and forth from old testament to the new, equally. It's everywhere. Like I said on the other forum, even the Apocrypha speaks to this separation, the Apocrypha which the church no longer accepts, surprise surprise.<br /><br />I agree that reconciliation was his purpose; those who do not want to reconcile, will be the ones the father does not give to him, they will be separated from him, they will be purged. YHWH knows the heart; if a person does not want to be with him, he's not going to give them to Yeshua. Same thing he did with Pharaoh, he knew Pharaoh's heart, his desire was not to please YHWH, but himself; so YHWH just gave him over to his callousness. Which now that I mention him, reminds me of Balaam (the Gentile prophet back in the old testament, Num 22); For those who aren't familiar with this story, a King wanted to hire the prophet Balaam to curse the Israelites, so he sent messengers to Balaam, Balaam consulted YHWH, YHWH said no you may not curse the Israelites, Balaam said I can't go; but the King sent messengers a second time, asking Balaam once again to come curse the Israelites, Balaam asked YHWH if he could go a second time (big mistake); obviously he didn't care about what YHWH said the first time around, so YHWH gave him over to his stubborn arrogant heart. If he really wanted to do YHWH's will, he would not have asked YHWH a second time and been satisfied by his first answer. Consequently, the second time Balaam asked, YHWH ordered him to go ahead. Then, YHWH sent an angel to Kill Balaam once he did set out; he doesn't die thanks to his donkey (which I guess is really YHWH's mercy), but that story alone gives me a lot to think about with respect to how Gentiles relate to YHWH, back then and now.<br /><br />Moving on, about analogies, the group of people he referred to as the bride are the guests under a different analogy, yes. I also think this group of people is "the wheat". But now a problem arises in your theory: where does the "chaff" group fit in? Who is the "chaff"? According to Psalms 1:4, the chaff are the wicked,<br /><br />
[size=12pt]Psalm 1:4 [/size](NIV)<br /><br /> [size=8pt]4[/size] [size=10pt]Not so the wicked! <br /> They are like chaff <br /> that the wind blows away.[/size]
<br /><br />Is the chaff saved? Does the "chaff" reconcile? Rev 21:8 leads me to believe that they do not. What is your perspective on this? Do you just completely dismiss these verses? I think the "coherent" explanation, the one that makes sense out of all the details, is the correct one. Shout-out to Michael and his hoax for getting this point across, lol. How many people found it unfathomable that Michael Jackson would "hoax" his death, and put his children (his creations) through so much "suffering". I don't think we are there yet (getting to the one coherent theory). Though I think that's the plan (not just TS'/Michael's plan, but what's spoken of in Eph 4:13).<br /><br />Clearly, I don't think all gentiles will be saved/grafted-in. These are the ones that will:<br /><br />
[size=12pt]Jeremiah 12:16[/size] (NIV)<br />[size=8pt]16[/size] [size=10pt]And if they learn well the ways of my people and swear by my name, saying, ‘As surely as the LORD lives’—even as they once taught my people to swear by Baal—then they will be established among my people.[/size]
<br /><br />Side note: I think the translators have done a grave injustice with this verse: his name is not "lord", but even worse, BAAL means LORD so what this verse is really saying, "And if they learn well the ways of my people and swear by my name, saying, ‘As surely as [size=12pt]יהוה[/size] lives’—even as they once taught my people to swear by LORD—then they will be established among my people." He does not want his people using vague honorifics that apply to false gods, he wants them using his name—Israelite and Gentile alike. Unfortunately, the Israelites looked at the Babylonians and copied their ways (which directly went against what he said in Deu 12:30-31; the very fact that they were in exile in Babylon meant they were disobeying in the first place, so I'm not surprised Deu 28:58-68)<br /><br /><br />To tie this back into the hoax, do you recall Paris saying "I remembered everything he told me" on The Ellen DeGeneres Show? She remembered everything her Father told her. Interesting, because that is exactly what YHWH expects his children to do; all-throughout the books of Exodus, Numbers and Deuteronomy the message he relayed through Moses was "remember", "remember", "do not forget". http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=remember&searchtype=any&version1=31&version2=9&language1=en&spanbegin=1&spanend=73&resultspp=100<br /><br />Remember the time you came out from Egypt (a la Michael's short film). albino/<br /><br /><br /><br />Just to clarify, I do not see the "tribe of Judah" (Jews) exclusively as "the Israelites" because they are just one tribe of the twelve.<br /><br />As for not being sure if one is saved or not; I thought it was pretty clear that he said he'll continue to keep working on those who belong to him, until he returns. Whatever work he has started on his flock, he will finish (Phil 1:6) until none of the following characteristics apply to you:<br /><br />
[size=12pt]Galatians 5:19-21[/size](NIV)<br /> [size=8pt]19[/size] [size=10pt]The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;[/size] [size=8pt]20[/size] [size=10pt]idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions[/size] [size=8pt]21[/size] [size=10pt]and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.[/size]
<br /><br /><br />I think if your heart is desperately seeking him out, seeking what he truly wants, what his word really says, who he really is, and you want to follow what he says (which he helps you to do), you have nothing to worry about. <br /><br />
[size=12pt]Jeremiah 29:13[/size] (NIV)<br />[size=8pt]13[/size] [size=10pt]You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.[/size]
Reading further, I stumbled upon something interesting; the KJV differs from most of the other versions in translating Revelation 22:14-15:<br /><br />http://bible.cc/revelation/22-14.htm<br /><br />I'll post the NIV for comparison:<br /><br />
[size=12pt]Revelation 22:14-15[/size] (NIV)<br /><br /> [size=8pt]14[/size][size=10pt] “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.[/size] [size=8pt]15[/size][size=10pt] Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.[/size]
<br /><br />
[size=12pt]Revelation 22:14-15[/size] (KJV)<br /><br /> [size=8pt]14[/size][size=10pt] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[/size]<br /><br /> [size=8pt]15[/size][size=10pt] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.[/size]
<br /><br />In relation to my previous post, this actually supports the parallel from the Old Testament: you cannot get in unless you're cleansed, the cleansing ceremony was a command. This also speaks of a separation (those dwelling with YHWH inside the city VS those dwelling outside the city, outside of YHWH's presence).
Excellent posts Mel...and thank you for posting this link: http://www.apocalypsesoon.org/xfile-20.html EXCELLENT teachings on the Feasts and what they mean. They were rehearsals for the coming of the Messiah. /bravo/<br /><br />Is it God's will that all people be saved? Yes. [email]http://calvinistcorner.com/god-desires-all-saved[/email]<br /><br />But sadly not all WILL be saved... http://carm.org/scriptures-say-not-all-are-saved<br /><br />John 10:27<br />New King James Version (NKJV)<br />27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.<br /><br />On your video post about the Mahdi; here's another one saying the same thing. <br /><br /> <br />
Thanks MsTrinity, I still have to catch up on one other video you've linked to, haha. Tomorrow I'll definitely have time to watch both. <br /><br />Something else that occurred to me: the date which Paris made that comment ("I remembered everything he told me") on The Ellen Degeneres Show was December 8, 2011 and in the bible Deuteronomy 8:2, 11 says this,<br /><br />
[size=12pt]Deuteronomy 8:2,11[/size] (NIV)<br />[size=8pt]2[/size] [size=10pt]Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands.[/size]<br /><br />[size=8pt]11[/size] [size=10pt]Be careful that you do not forget the LORD your God, failing to observe his commands, his laws and his decrees that I am giving you this day.[/size]
<br /><br /> :shock: :!: It's just like old days lolol/<br /><br />[size=8pt]edited to add verse 11[/size]
@MsTrinity333, I'm sorry to say that, but concerning your video, I do find this offensive as it's not the truth, yet it's being presented as the truth. No hard feelings MsTrinity, but distortions of what one holds as sacred, ie my religion hurts, especially in light of what I have said concerning the previous video.<br /><br />Michael said: "Just because it's in print doesn't mean it's the gospel"<br /><br />"It's a complete lie, why do people buy these papers? It's not the truth I'm here to say. You know, don't judge a person, do not pass judgement, unless you have talked to them one on one. I don't care what the story is, do not judge them because it is a lie."<br /><br />Just because some misinformed man speaks against what he doesn't know personally, it doesn't make it the gospel. I am a practicing muslim so I can speak from personal experience and I have already explained about the Mahdi. <br />
So technically it's tomorrow (lol); I'm like 49 minutes into the video and he's speaking about "strong delusion" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12) which makes me wonder: if this "antichrist" will have any chance at fooling Orthodox Jews (going with the perspective that the antichrist is a person) the likelier scenario would be for the antichrist to also be Jewish, not Muslim. There's no way they are going to accept a Messiah that isn't a Jew; they wouldn't even accept Yeshua and he was a Jew. Then again only YHWH knows what's really gonna go down lol. Are there any Orthodox Jews on the forum? I wonder what they think. <br /><br />Regardless of whatever "religion" he/it comes out of, it's obvious that the antichrist will be a misrepresentation of the belief system because he doesn't worship the God of his ancestors and takes all the glory for himself (Daniel 11:37-38).<br /><br />note to self: if anything "amazing" comes out of my mouth, all credits goes to YHWH and his Holy Spirit.
Melody, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. <br />I see only circular reasoning here. <br /><br />Revelation 22:14-15[size=10pt](NIV)[/size]
[size=8pt]14[/size][size=10pt]“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.[/size][size=8pt]15[/size][size=10pt]Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.[/size]
<br />[size=10pt]Now we’re back separating law from grace, a[/size]nd gentiles from Israelites. Dogs are Gentiles. Divorced might be adulterers, hating a brother might be murdering, loving things or certain people (such as MJ) [size=10pt]in the world might be idolatry, any slight lying is falsehood. And what do you know, worshiping on the wrong day is not included in this verse! Not too many are going to get in to heaven, then.[/size][size=10pt] [/size]<br /><br />[size=10pt]We should keep in mind that m[/size][size=10pt]any horrendous sinners are only minutes or some horendously moving event, away from believing. As Jesus said on the cross, “Father forgive them for they know what they do.” [/size][size=10pt]In other words humans are generally not capable of making these eternity weighing choices.[/size] [size=10pt]Most Christians today only became so, as adults after perhaps difficult events in life. No one is hopeless, not one. God can change their hearts with the snap of his fingers. Perhaps like the prodigal son, each one of the 14 billion of all time, will come to their senses after the right pressures of life, and actually KNOWING that there really is a loving caring heavenly Father, who will forgive them. [/size][size=10pt]You see negatively, what I see positively. You see the letter of the Bible, I see the intended spirit of the Bible. [/size]<br /><br />[size=10pt]Nope, I will NEVER go back to that mindset, of the tiny select holier than thou group, that somehow made the right choice, and the rest did not choose right. [/size]But I know that you are right in that the surface appearance of Scripture seems to indicate that almost all mankind will perish—99%. And this is somehow supposed to be Good News (Gospel) for mankind? ONE religion of L.O.V.E. God will embrace them all, drawing ALL like a magnet, at the right time, not before. What seems impossible to man, IS possible with God!<br /><br />[size=10pt]I hope you don’t mind debating this topic. I don’t want to offend you, or upset you. This topic is very close to my heart. God’s blessings on you![/size]
<br />I think it's time for The Sign 2. But TS doesn't have it ready yet.<br />
<br />Maybe as we speak, he is typing furiously to get it done for that specially numbered day. typing/ Got to double-check all those Bible references. 8) <br /><br />TS, did we dig deep enough, in discussing Sign #1? Looking forward to hearing from you again!
Religion is a prop for the SEEKERS to find the light. But religion is not necessary to be a BELIEVER and a LOVER.<br />L.O.V.E. does not need any religion but lots of God's back to be part of His feet, hands and mouth to actively participate in His creation. <br /><br />Or let's put is this way: <br />holding His hand is a must-do before we can participate in His dance.<br /><br /><br />
<br />[size=12pt]@BTC, good point about Front and his frequent references to offering us food.[/size]
<br /><br />Nothing to do with your discussion.... this is a just for fun post with some cute Pics (Photoshops?) of our great adorable COOK (I just can't forget Paris' words: "He was like the greatest cook ever!") <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
No offense taken MJonmind. I think this is what he expects his believers to do: to come together and reason until we reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of what the Messiah did, will do, and who he is.<br /><br />First of all, I'd just like to say I've only been reading the scriptures for a little over two years (I think I started in the summer of '09) for very superficial reasons and if I hadn't decided to "test" some of the things it was promising, I probably would still be reading for superficial reasons. My point: I have no emotional ties to my interpretation. I'm just trying to compare verses from both the Old Testament and the New. I'm not afraid of being offended (and doubt I ever will be offended) because it's not like I wrote the bible and I'm just a finite human being with limited understanding, young and naive to boot with so much still to learn.<br /><br />That being said, your definition of "dog" is incorrect simply by comparing the use of the word "dog" back in Deuteronomy 23:18. There it refers to prostitution; the "dog" referred to here is a male prostitute. Some versions keep the original "dog", others just plainly write out what it is (like the NIV) http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/23-18.htm<br /><br />Yeah Gentiles engaged in it, but once you're grafted in, you're suppose to leave the Gentile lifestyle behind. So no one claiming to believe in Yeshua should be living like a Gentile (all of the things listed in Rev 22:15), living to please the carnal or the human. If the Israelites are Holy (consecrated/set apart/dedicated to YHWH) then a Gentile by definition is unholy (not dedicated to YHWH) and their lifestyle shows it.<br /><br />The rest of what you are saying, all these "might be's", are all easily confessed sins that can be forgiven. They need to be confessed to YHWH though...<br /><br />
[size=12pt]1 John 1:9[/size] (NIV)<br /><br />[size=8pt]9[/size] [size=10pt]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. [/size]
<br /><br />... and the person should repent of that activity.<br /><br />
[size=12pt]Acts 17:30[/size] (NIV)<br /><br />[size=8pt]30[/size] [size=10pt]In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.[/size]
<br /><br /><br />I share Michael's view that the body is a machine; we (or he) should be operating the machine, not letting the machine operate us. That includes not letting your emotions and desires override you. Ignorance is no longer an excuse; one only has to open up the bible and study what "adultery" really is, or "idolatry"; information is so widely available and there are missionaries going to remote places on the planet. Plus, we're told that the END will not come until the information has reached every nation. People will not be robbed of the opportunity to make the choice; it's fair and square.<br /><br />
[size=12pt]Matthew 24:14[/size] (NIV)<br />[size=8pt]14[/size] [size=10pt]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.[/size]<br />
<br /><br />Maybe I don't undestand this "grace" concept, but after Adam and Eve disobeyed him, he could have just destroyed humanity then. Why continue with humanity? Why give them instructions for how to avoid trouble on this planet and with each other? That's awfully kind. I see the giving of the law as an act of grace. Humans didn't "deserve" any of that guidance or forethought. If that is what "grace" is, then it has been around since the old testament. The freedom from the "law", as I understand it, is freedom from the strictness of the Mosaic law (that wouldn't even let you pick up a stick on the Sabbath), which was detailed on the contract written on the scroll/book, not the one written on stone. You may want to reassess Exodus 21-24.<br /><br />Idolatry isn't just love, but placing that person (or thing) on the same pedestal as YHWH (or even higher than YHWH), being dependent on this person/thing when you should be dependent on YHWH for your peace of mind, your joy, your well-being, and any other thing you're suppose to depend on YHWH for (salvation falls under that category too; the Most High provides the way, not anyone/anything else).<br /><br />Loving a lie, like people claiming that Sunday is the Sabbath, falls under what Rev 22:15 is talking about. False worship is falsehood, even if the worship is directed towards YHWH, it is disrespectful, disobedient, and he hates it. That point was made very clear with Nadab and Abihu. For those who aren't aware, they were priests in the Tabernacle and they offered incense in a way YHWH forbade. From a human perspective, we don't see the harm; at the end of the day, fire was offered so why does it matter where it came from or how they lit it? Well, to YHWH, obedience is what matters. He has a perfect plan to execute and if you don't want to be a part of it, or you can't be trusted, then he has no use for you. <br /><br />
[size=12pt]Leviticus 10:1-2[/size] (NIV)<br /><br />[size=8pt]1[/size] [size=10pt]Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, contrary to his command.[/size] [size=8pt]2[/size] [size=10pt]So fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.[/size]
<br /><br />and he prefers our obedience over having to forgive us later (the preference of most good parents, right?)<br /><br />
[size=12pt]1 Samuel 15:22[/size] (NIV)<br /><br />[size=8pt] 22[/size] [size=10pt]But Samuel replied:<br /><br /> “Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices <br /> as much as in obeying the LORD? <br />To obey is better than sacrifice, <br /> and to heed is better than the fat of rams.[/size]
<br /><br />And if he says he has written his law on our hearts (Hebrews 8:10), why do such a thing if he doesn't expect us to live our lives by that standard? Even more so, when he helps us keep them?<br /><br />
[size=12pt]Ezekiel 36:26-27[/size] (NIV)<br />[size=8pt]26[/size] [size=10pt]I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.[/size] [size=8pt]27[/size] [size=10pt]And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.[/size]
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[size=12pt]Hebrews 8:10[/size]<br />[size=8pt]10[/size][size=10pt] This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel <br /> after that time, declares the Lord. <br />I will put my laws in their minds <br /> and write them on their hearts. <br />I will be their God, <br /> and they will be my people.[/size]<br />
<br /><br />If we have his commands written on our hearts and minds, we are his. If we seek to do his will with all of our heart, just like Yeshua, then we are his. Personally, I want to have YHWH's mindset and I'm trying my hardest to find out what that is. I will not let my preferences and my wishful humanistic thinking get in the way of that. The latter was not much of a challenge for me since I was insanely misanthropic and cynical to begin with, though nowadays that part of my personality has pretty much been reduced to nil. Like others have said, I'm a work in progress. His work, not mine, though my consent was—and continues to be—needed.<br /><br />
[size=12pt]Hebrews 13:20-21[/size] (NIV)<br /><br /> [size=8pt]20[/size] [size=10pt]Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,[/size] [size=8pt]21[/size] [size=10pt]equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.[/size]
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on 1329553459:
<br />[size=10pt]But I know that you are right in that the surface appearance of Scripture seems to indicate that almost all mankind will perish—99%. And this is somehow supposed to be Good News (Gospel) for mankind? [/size]<br />
<br /><br />I think the "Good News" is this: when the human gives their consent, he'll enable them to keep his commands, he's offering to do the work for you, but I guess people are still in their unbelief of his capabilities like the rebellious generation wandering the desert for 40 years.<br /><br />Take note that his son carried out the ten commandments (even the fourth), doing everything the Father told him to do, and it is his image we're being conformed to.
Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are great teachers <br /><br />I enjoyed reading that sermon, thank you for sharing it. Another thought: the argument could be made that Gentiles were spiritual prostitutes; not only were Gentiles distinguished by literal prostitution, but also for their idolatry. In some cases they even used literal prostitution in the worship of their Gods (such as Ishtar/Asherah/Ashteroth/Astarte). <br /><br />That's how Rev 22:15 is using it, I think, as reference to lifestyle and not ethnicity because clearly, as the sermon points to, he fed the Israelite children first and then went on to the "dogs"/the prostitutes (whether literal and/or spiritual). Foreigners are invited and they're expected to leave their culture behind. In essence they stop being a "Gentile" once they become YHWH's child; if not, they'll be living outside of the city. I guess this is where the concept of "born-again" comes in and why there's no longer "Jew" and "Gentile" distinctions in a spiritual sense: once you've gone through spiritual rebirth, you don't continue to be what you were in the past; you can't be a "Jew" or a "Gentile", you're something new.<br /><br />
[size=12pt]John 3:5[/size] (NIV)<br /><br />[size=8pt]5[/size] [size=10pt]Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.[/size]
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[size=12pt]Ezekiel 36:25[/size] (NIV)<br /><br />[size=8pt]25[/size] [size=10pt]I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.[/size]
TS, we could use a little input to steer us back on course. <br /><br />People are so embedded in their own brand of doctrine that's all they see. I have no doctrine but I can see this is far cry from the direction you first charted.
@Melody<;br /><br />I'm taking some cues from your last posts and I'm trying to get them together. Can you tell me if I went up to what you're saying?<br /><br />The seven annual Jewish festivals (Leviticus 23) represent the plan of God for marriage between the Messiah and his bride. The first four spring feasts were fulfilled. They are Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits and the Feast of Weeks or Pentecost.<br />So the groom paid the bride price with his life and the Father has sent the Holy Spirit (Seal of the Living God) to choose the bride for her son.<br /><br />Then the groom has left to go prepare the nuptial room (can it be the ark?) with the promise to return from his girlfriend (John 14:1-3)<br /><br />Then the groom will return to the bride at harvest (Feast of Trumpets), he will separate the wheat from the chaff (Atonement) and he will marry his girlfriend (Feast of Tabernacles).<br /><br />Revelation says that only 144,000 at the end of time will have the seal of God; 1/3 of the population (with the 666 mark) will be destroyed. So who are all the others? (Revelation 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.) <br />
I was just reading what others were posting about finding "the lost sheep" and who are the 144,000 etc.<br /><br />I think it's for anyone who wants it, the whole world, and they are trying to "save" as many as possible.<br /><br />I think that's what Micheal's song the "Lost Children" (Invincible Album) was about. It always had a double meaning for me.<br />There's the lost children meaning actual kids who are lost. There are "the lost children" meaning god's chidren/people who are lost spiritually. They forgot where they came from.<br /><br />Some lines from the song,<br /><br />"This is for all the Lost Children, This is for all the Lost Children,<br />This one's for all the Lost children, wishing them well<br />and wishing them home<br />Home with their fathers,<br />Snug close and warm, loving their mothers<br /><br />I see the door simply wide open<br />But no one can find thee <br /><br /><br />So this means all of us, and the door is wide open, you just have to find it.<br /><br /><br />Love You All<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
@bec: sorry for getting carried away <br /><br />@nefertari: yeah, that's what the festivals seem to be conveying; I've only found out about this perspective within recent months, but I must say it ties up the story quite nicely. You bring up a really good question about "who" those masses of people are and I don't have an answer for that. My first read-through of the bible was just that: I devoured whole books at a time sometimes, so I kind of zipped through the book of Revelation. Then I started reading again at a meticulously slow pace (in comparison) and am nowhere near the book of Revelation in my study. I can't recall if the 144,000 is a symbolic number or literal, but I do remember that they stayed loyal to YHWH's ways instead of the world's ways (however many they actually are).<br /><br />
[size=12pt]Revelation 9:15[/size] (NIV)<br /><br />[size=8pt]15[/size] [size=10pt]And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.[/size]
<br /><br />Thanks for bringing this to my attention. If that were to happen right now that's like 2.3 billion people, wow. I have so much to study :geek:<br /><br />I'm wondering why even care about a physical ark, if (as a few have pointed out) there's mention of an ark appearing at end times in the sky. That's the one that matters afterall and it is the one that can never be counterfeited by human hands. The one on Earth was just a parallel for the one that will come. <br /><br />Hmmm, I just realized something: we're saying the ark is a throne as well; the book of Enoch mentions a throne already on a part of Earth that YHWH will sit down on when he descends:<br /><br />
[size=14pt]CHAPTER XXIV.[/size]
<br /><br />[size=10pt]1. ⌈⌈And from thence I went to another place of the earth⌉⌉, and he showed me a mountain range of fire which burnt ⌈⌈day and night⌉⌉. 2. And I went beyond it and saw seven magnificent mountains all differing each from the other, and the stones (thereof) were magnificent and beautiful, magnificent as a whole, of glorious appearance and fair exterior: ⌈⌈three towards⌉⌉ the east, ⌈⌈one⌉⌉ founded on the other, and three towards the south, one upon the other, and deep rough ravines, no one of which joined with any other. 3. And the seventh mountain was in the midst of these, and it excelled them in height, resembling the seat of a throne: and fragrant trees encircled the throne. 4. And amongst them was a tree such as I had never yet smelt, neither was any amongst them nor were others like it: it had a fragrance beyond all fragrance, and its leaves and blooms and wood wither not for ever: and its fruit ⌈⌈is beautiful, and its fruit⌉⌉ resembles the dates of a palm. 5. Then I said: '⌈How⌉ beautiful is this tree, and fragrant, and its leaves are fair, and its blooms ⌈⌈very⌉⌉ delightful in appearance.' 6. Then answered Michael, one of the holy ⌈⌈and honoured⌉⌉ angels who was with me, and was their leader.[/size]<br /><br /><br />
[size=14pt]CHAPTER XXV.[/size]
<br /><br />[size=10pt]1. And he said unto me: 'Enoch, why dost<br /><br /><br />thou ask me regarding the fragrance of the tree, and ⌈why⌉ dost thou wish to learn the truth?' Then I answered him ⌈⌈saying⌉⌉: 'I wish to know about everything, but especially about this tree.' And he answered saying: 'This high mountain ⌈⌈which thou hast seen⌉⌉, whose summit is like the throne of God, is His throne, where the Holy Great One, the Lord of Glory, the Eternal King, will sit, when He shall come down to visit the earth with goodness. 4. And as for this fragrant tree no mortal is permitted to touch it till the great judgement, when He shall take vengeance on all and bring (everything) to its consummation for ever. It shall then be given to the righteous and holy. 5. Its fruit shall be for food to the elect: it shall be transplanted to the holy place, to the temple of the Lord, the Eternal King.<br /><br /> 6 Then shall they rejoice with joy and be glad,<br /> And into the holy place shall they enter;<br /> And its fragrance shall be in their bones,<br /> And they shall live a long life on earth,<br /> Such as thy fathers lived:<br /> And in their days shall no ⌈⌈sorrow or⌉⌉ plague<br /> Or torment or calamity touch them.'<br /><br />7 Then blessed I the God of Glory, the Eternal King, who hath prepared such things for the righteous, and hath created them and promised to give to them.<br /><br />http://sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/index.htm<br />[/size]<br />
<br /><br />So the ark we see in the sky sounds more like the prepared rooms and not the "throne" if I'm understanding correctly. Again, I need to study more.<br /><br />edit: I'm not sure if these two chapters are a prophecy or what because the other chapters are in the distant past (the nephilim being destroyed).<br /><br /><br /><br />@Dontwalkaway: ah, I never connected the song like that before. :idea:
Comments
<br />I came across this today:<br /><br />“When we speak of Christ and Anti-Christ are we sure we are referring to individuals who will save or destroy us or are we referring to systems?<br /><br />A faithless, demon-infested reality that could be described as the System of Anti-Christ.<br /><br />Or our collective return to Christ, the avatar of God’s Truth, Peace and Love.”<br /><br />http://kevboyle.blogspot.com/2012/02/protocols-20-23-program-of-theft-and.html<br /><br />So are we sure that it is about individuals? <br />